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Not enough stuns in battlegrounds

MrSensible
MrSensible
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In the last battleground I played (approximately a 10 minute game) there was about a full minute of time where I wasn't stunned. Is there any way we could get this number down to 30 seconds or so? Actually, it would be great if I could just start the match with a debuff that persists and every 8 seconds it just stuns me regardless of whether or not I'm blocking, dodge rolling, or already stunned.

/EndSarcasm

Okay, but seriously, Battlegrounds are like 50% stuns. There's not a ton of strategy that happens during the matches. It's pretty much "stun then spam burst damage." If the person has the audacity to break free from your stun, you put up your shield for 3 seconds until the stun immunity is gone, and then you repeat the process. If it's a flag match, you do it on the flag. If it's a relic match, you do it on the relic carrier's face.

You can build for tankiness if you really want, but you'll be a dead weight to your team. You can build for ranged if you really want, but you'll likely get bursted down. Hard. You can build for magicka, or stam, or whatever. But the most effective strategy is 99 times out of 100 to stunlock the target until they're dead. The most effective players in all the battlegrounds I've played run this strategy. They hang out, pop a stun, then blow every last drop of stamina or magicka they have (some even use macros), then disappear into the shadows until they can do it again. It's also an incredibly effective way to melt through someone's stamina when they have to keep breaking free.

Stuns and knockbacks really need to have diminishing returns. The 3 seconds of stun immunity is simply not cutting it when a decent 4v4 flag fight can last 30 seconds.

It's really uninteresting. and makes battlegrounds not terribly compelling to play. The only thing that's worse right now is being killed by a helmet proc. But that's another thread.

#InB4LearnToBreakFree
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  • FoolishOptimist
    How would you see this problem solved? You mention diminishing returns, could you flesh out this concept?
  • MrSensible
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    Sure, I suppose there's several ways you can inflict diminishing returns.

    1) You can make stuns cost more to cast consecutively, similar to bolt escape. (I really don't think this is a good idea)

    2) You can make each consecutive stun last less time. So the first stun can last at most 4 seconds, let's say. The next stun within 30 seconds will only be able to last at most 3 seconds. And so on.

    3) You can make the cost of break free cheaper in the same way. If you have to break free again within 30 seconds, it costs half as much.

    4) Increase the amount of time between stuns that you are immune. After the first stun, you are immune to stuns for 5 seconds. After the second stun within 30 seconds you are immune for 10 seconds.


    Personally, I think the 2nd method would be the most viable. But method 3 has some potential and may feel more fair in practice. I think 4 is not a great solution, and 1 is a terrible solution.

    ETA: To be clear, all numbers given here are just examples.
    Edited by MrSensible on June 13, 2018 9:01AM
  • Peekachu99
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    How would you see this problem solved? You mention diminishing returns, could you flesh out this concept?

    All stun durations should be shortened to 1-2s at most, for starters. Especially considering that they’re only viable and used in PVP. There also shouldn’t be a damage component associated with any hard stun, ever, since the stun is often what provides the kill and secondary damage will be coming anyway. CC should be an annoyance, not the sole reason you’re killed. Snares actually aren’t as bad and they already adjusted them. The damage on those should be lowered even more. Also CC immunity is still broken half the time so that’s not helping perception of these events.

    For what it’s worth, you can still outheal and outtank BG CCs/ Sloads and damage, but I understand lots of people don’t like to play that defensively.
  • SaintSubwayy
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    Just remove the unblockable CC form the game, srsly its just annoing AF when you fight 1vx and someone is casting dizzy, which you want to block, and another dude petryfies you....just bad design.

    Furthermore they should revert the CC immunity change from Potions back to the Old state.
    But add an indicator, like the Block indicator, so ppl will see when someone is CC immune, or not.

    Only 1 Stunn can be applied to you at any given moment, when the stunn is over, you should get CC immunity for 2s, so you can recast block, or CC pots.

    If you get successfully stunned by an enemie player you should not be able to break free, unless you get purged by an ally.

    This will change the meta from a stunn spam meta, to a meta in which you have to time your stunn, and if you miss your window you would have to w8 till there is another window up again.

    in Cyro they could just add a new type of defensive Siegeweapon, which works like oil, but only stunns 5 players hit by the area. This will go throuh CC immunity, and Blocks.
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  • MrSensible
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    This will change the meta from a stunn spam meta, to a meta in which you have to time your stunn, and if you miss your window you would have to w8 till there is another window up again.

    This is interesting, I'd like to build on it in a slightly different way. What if every (random) number of seconds you became susceptible to stuns for 1 second? Or possibly after using certain abilities you leave yourself open, similar to how some moves in real combat leave you open but are super powerful/effective. As you said, this would be indicated by some kind of telegraph. And yeah, if you get stunned in that window, it's your fault for not blocking it. Then you have to deal with the 2 seconds of incoming burst damage. It sort of gives you another resource to manage, your susceptibility to stuns. I think something like this would be a totally fair solution, as it puts the onus on the player for failing to manage their stun susceptibility.
  • ChunkyCat
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    I can see you teabagging people who stun you.

    So mean.
  • Vaoh
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    What are you actually asking for? You want to not get stunned?? That’s a key component of the game design and it’s very good.....

    If you are really bad at CC Breaking quickly enough I’m sure there are add-ons to help with that. Also you can run Immovable (the skill) or Immovable potions to avoid dealing with stuns for extended periods of time.
  • TarrNokk
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    What are you actually asking for? You want to not get stunned?? That’s a key component of the game design and it’s very good.....

    If you are really bad at CC Breaking quickly enough I’m sure there are add-ons to help with that. Also you can run Immovable (the skill) or Immovable potions to avoid dealing with stuns for extended periods of time.

    Just read the OP and you will understand.
    All CCs are key components but the immunities must be overhauled because its true: many BG matches are just cc in a row which is really no fun.
  • MrSensible
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    What are you actually asking for? You want to not get stunned?? That’s a key component of the game design and it’s very good.....

    How you came to this conclusion after reading the OP, I will never ever know.
    Vaoh wrote: »
    I don’t understand how this is an issue. It’s not an issue. That’s the design of the game since forever.

    This is not a rebuttal of any sort. Things change, regardless of how long they have been that way. And since you clearly missed the original point of my opening post, I will reiterate:


    MrSensible wrote: »

    ... Battlegrounds are like 50% stuns. There's not a ton of strategy that happens during the matches. It's pretty much "stun then spam burst damage."

    ...The most effective players in all the battlegrounds I've played run this strategy ...

    It's really uninteresting. and makes battlegrounds not terribly compelling to play.


    ETA: Do you play battlegrounds?
    Edited by MrSensible on June 13, 2018 11:19AM
  • Vaoh
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    MrSensible wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    What are you actually asking for? You want to not get stunned?? That’s a key component of the game design and it’s very good.....

    How you came to this conclusion after reading the OP, I will never ever know.
    Vaoh wrote: »
    I don’t understand how this is an issue. It’s not an issue. That’s the design of the game since forever.

    This is not a rebuttal of any sort. Things change, regardless of how long they have been that way. And since you clearly missed the original point of my opening post, I will reiterate:


    MrSensible wrote: »

    ... Battlegrounds are like 50% stuns. There's not a ton of strategy that happens during the matches. It's pretty much "stun then spam burst damage."

    ...The most effective players in all the battlegrounds I've played run this strategy ...

    It's really uninteresting. and makes battlegrounds not terribly compelling to play.


    ETA: Do you play battlegrounds?

    Calm yourself lol. So hostile toward those who don’t agree. I play a ton of BGs and have always been very successful at them and PvP all around. You could say I use this “strategy” quite a bit. I never meant to trigger you so much - I was truly struggling to understand your exact problem and reasoning for posting an entire thread about this.
    There were two complaints you made - the first about stun into burst damage, the second about not enough CC Immunity time. At least that’s what I can gather.

    You said this in your OP:
    “Stuns and knockbacks really need to have diminishing returns. The 3 seconds of stun immunity is simply not cutting it when a decent 4v4 flag fight can last 30 seconds”

    That’s why I provided you all of those suggestions for increasing your CC Immunity time, all of which you ignored. I tried to provide legitimate help for you to improve.

    The strategy you’re referring to in your own words is using a “stun then spam burst damage."
    If you want this to change I’m sorry, but it’ll never happen. Using a stun then dealing high damage is such a basic part of PvP that the whole gameplay of PvP would need to be redesigned for it not to happen anymore.
    You setup your burst (delayed damage skills, DoTs), stun your opponent so they can’t mitigate your burst, then deal your burst damage (usually with Ult) - hopefully landing you a kill. That’s how it works and it won’t change.... in fact TTK feels like it’s getting quicker, which is the opposite of what you want.

    So once again, I totally disagree that should be changed altogether. Not trying to argue with you. I’m trying to understand your issue and help you overcome it because it’s the first time I’ve seen a complaint on the forum about this, and you can sure bet it’ll never change. Therefore learn to adapt so you can play better and have more fun instead of raging :)

    Lastly ETA means “Estimated Time of Arrival” so your insult at the end didn’t work out so well lol....
  • MrSensible
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    Calm yourself lol.

    I am calm. Any uncalm-ness that you read from my response exists only in your head.
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Lastly ETA means “Estimated Time of Arrival” so your insult at the end didn’t work out so well lol....

    ETA means "Edit to Add". Any insult you took from it wasn't intended, my dear snowflake.
    Edited by MrSensible on June 13, 2018 1:16PM
  • Vaoh
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    MrSensible wrote: »
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Calm yourself lol.

    I am calm. Any uncalm-ness that you read from my response exists only in your head.
    Vaoh wrote: »
    Lastly ETA means “Estimated Time of Arrival” so your insult at the end didn’t work out so well lol....

    ETA means "Edit to Add". Any insult you took from it wasn't intended, my dear snowflake.
    “snowflake”

    You’re so deluded you can’t even see when people are trying to help you. You would rather argue for the sake of it on a video game forum.

    I can’t help those who don’t want to be helped. Gl to you.
  • MrSensible
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    Do you often have delusions of persecution?
    Vaoh wrote: »
    I can’t help those who don’t want to be helped. Gl to you.

    You also can't help those who didn't ask for help. Despite having it explained to you 3 different times, you still don't understand that this isn't a "please help me git gud" thread. It's a "stun immunity cooldown is too short and makes pvp less nuanced" thread. I don't know how to make this simpler. I am not being salty when I say that. I am not being rude. I am not upset at you or trying to hurt your feels. I am stating a literal fact.

    Edited by MrSensible on June 13, 2018 2:22PM
  • redshirt_49
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    Why not just do it like SWTOR? If you spam stuns, you're going to make the stunned person become immune to stuns for a painfully long time, thus encouraging players to use stuns as precision tools rather than just a spammable to cause stun-lock

    Since break free and the immunity it's supposed to grant has barely been functional since Morrowind, this would seem like a nice workaround.
    Edited by redshirt_49 on June 13, 2018 2:42PM
  • MrSensible
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    Why not just do it like SWTOR? If you spam stuns, you're going to make the stunned person become immune to stuns for a painfully long time, thus encouraging players to use stuns as precision tools rather than just a spammable to cause stun-lock

    Since break free and the immunity it's supposed to grant has barely been functional since Morrowind, this would seem like a nice workaround.

    This isn't a bad idea, but let's say the threshhold on that was 3 stuns within 15 seconds, thus triggering the stun immunity for the next minute or so. Due to the insane amount of burst possible in Battlegrounds, you are probably already dead after failing to avoid 3 stuns in that short of time.

    But I do think you touched on a key concept here: it would be ideal to find a way to make stuns a more precision tool and less of a "standard rotation" tool.

    I have never played SWTOR, so please correct me if I misunderstood.
  • FloppyTouch
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    Immovable pots yw
  • Potenza
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    I think it would be much fluid gameplay if they removed the stuns altogether.
  • redshirt_49
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    MrSensible wrote: »
    Why not just do it like SWTOR? If you spam stuns, you're going to make the stunned person become immune to stuns for a painfully long time, thus encouraging players to use stuns as precision tools rather than just a spammable to cause stun-lock

    Since break free and the immunity it's supposed to grant has barely been functional since Morrowind, this would seem like a nice workaround.

    This isn't a bad idea, but let's say the threshhold on that was 3 stuns within 15 seconds, thus triggering the stun immunity for the next minute or so. Due to the insane amount of burst possible in Battlegrounds, you are probably already dead after failing to avoid 3 stuns in that short of time.

    But I do think you touched on a key concept here: it would be ideal to find a way to make stuns a more precision tool and less of a "standard rotation" tool.

    I have never played SWTOR, so please correct me if I misunderstood.

    Ah it depends. For instance if you tried to stun a target that is still stunned ( as these stun spammers do ) you achieve the opposite. They will become immune and immediately released instead and unable to be stunned again for like 20 seconds.
  • redshirt_49
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    Double-post because bugs. Ignore.
    Edited by redshirt_49 on June 13, 2018 3:58PM
  • Danksta
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    Just remove the unblockable CC form the game, srsly its just annoing AF when you fight 1vx and someone is casting dizzy, which you want to block, and another dude petryfies you....just bad design.

    Furthermore they should revert the CC immunity change from Potions back to the Old state.
    But add an indicator, like the Block indicator, so ppl will see when someone is CC immune, or not.

    Only 1 Stunn can be applied to you at any given moment, when the stunn is over, you should get CC immunity for 2s, so you can recast block, or CC pots.

    If you get successfully stunned by an enemie player you should not be able to break free, unless you get purged by an ally.

    This will change the meta from a stunn spam meta, to a meta in which you have to time your stunn, and if you miss your window you would have to w8 till there is another window up again.

    in Cyro they could just add a new type of defensive Siegeweapon, which works like oil, but only stunns 5 players hit by the area. This will go throuh CC immunity, and Blocks.

    You can tell if someone is CC immune by the swirling circular lines at their feet, not to be confused with the similar looking indicator for snares. Pop an immovable pot and you will see what I mean.
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  • cpuScientist
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    I am so baffled by this. Ok as @Vaoh said it is an intergral part of the game. It's how PvP is and always will be. You load up dots ordelayed bursts and then stun someone into your major burst from an ulti or proc skill or whatever is your big burst so they all hit at once or hit when the person is weak. I believe it is a 6 second delay before you can be stunned again.

    Now the reason they added unblockable stuns was because, people could just reduce block cost and stay in front of a Zerg in sets like fury or sevenths, block everyone barely taking damage and then burst them all back. It was a powerful defense and playstyle, so they added counters like bleeds and stuns that go through block. Same with dodge roll, before you could just dodge dodge dodge and never take much damage so they added undodgeable stuns and made it so you couldn't dodge certain ground based skills. Again adding a counter.

    Certain classes such as magDK rely fully on control and the ability to stun and root to fight. If people could not be stunned at all or be resistant for very long periods of time it would woefully unbalance the game. Thode dodgers and permablockers would rule as kings, classes that just load up on damage and are not built around the stuns would have distinct advantages. And dot classes or slower classes basically any mag class would be defunct.

    If you are being stunned on cooldown then you are being pressured and either need to get a team of friends with you or if you run solo and don't get paired with good teams rework your playstyle, maybe change class. Use immov pots wear heavy for immov skill make sure to build alot of stamina for break free. Add some tankiness, something because if you are just dying Everytime you get stunned something is wrong with your build or playstyle.

    GL though feel free to ask any questions you might have. And try not to be rude to people that are helping..

    ETA - Estimated Time of Arrival
    It says edited already so we'll know it's edited.
    But learned something new, some people use ETA differently so thanks!
  • Inarre
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    I'd be happy simply if my break free on the first CC granted immunity as intended. Cant count the times I've been stunned and simply cannot ccbreak at all as my character is getting upper-cut and stunned all over the arena and each cc begins a new window to break free, interrupting the last. I know my experience isn't unique.
  • D0PAMINE
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    Im usually too lazy to make immovable potions so I kinda just deal with it. It can be obnoxious but I use stuns a lot too.
    Edited by D0PAMINE on June 14, 2018 11:38PM
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  • FrostFallFox
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    Well, imagine there is no CC. People would keep defending themselves from your attacks and your only option against people who can heal themselves well is hope that they stand still and take it until they are out of magic.
    \(^-,,-^)/
  • DenMoria
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    So... what I'm getting from this conversation is that 1) You don't want your opponent to have an advantage (fair enough), even though they used the mechanics to achieve that advantage and 2) You want to have an advantage (fair enough), but you don't want your opponent to have any.

    Sounds good to me.
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  • Mureel
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    Great. Now I want Gouda.
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  • MrSensible
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    DenMoria wrote: »
    So... what I'm getting from this conversation is that 1) You don't want your opponent to have an advantage (fair enough), even though they used the mechanics to achieve that advantage and 2) You want to have an advantage (fair enough), but you don't want your opponent to have any.

    Sounds good to me.

    That's a cool straw man, where'd ya get it?
  • Waffennacht
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    I disagree with OP

    Edit:. Good players only die during a CC break. Only bad players actually experience a stun as good players will always CC break. Also why good players kill during CC break rather than expecting a stun to last
    Edited by Waffennacht on June 14, 2018 7:33PM
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
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  • Recremen
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    We already have diminishing returns via CC immunity. Stuns are at a great place right now, either use them or lose to them.
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