PVP: Why are we allowing really bad players to win with proc sets?

BNOC · June 2018

idk wrote: »

PvP leaderboards are merely who spends the most productive AP time in game. Plenty of times the top of the boards has not been the best fighters but the best at getting AP.

Do not get me wrong, not saying the top or the leaderboards are scrubs, but OP made a comment about the boards.

Should have made that comment. 95% of the time, you're right and they are scrubs - Whether it's BG's or Cyro, it's just who has the most time on their hands.
There's dudes on Xbox that literally tick-surf across the map, they don't do anything but turn up to a defended keep/sieged attack and wait on the tick.

In BG's, it's literally whoever chooses to avoid all PVP and solely cap objectives finishes top (Non-DM)

The leaderboards hold little to no significance when it comes to proc sets.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think they believe people don't PvP because its hard. They make stupid sets that would boost up their performance by literally doing the damage/healing for them , but they forget the fact that good players can use those stupid sets and abuse them 10 times better.

Truth. Steroids in a AA baseball player can make him a major leaguer. Steroids in an MVP like Barry Bonds make him into something the world has never seen since. Same concept applies here. Cheese is all well and good until the good players just say F it and do it as well.

This is easily preventable by:
..
..
..

Not making ridicilous sets to solve the bad gameplay you've created.

Zenimax handled the permablock problem well, I'm really disappointed that they went this route to solve the shield stacking/cloak spamming issues. These issues are more complicated than ''lets make a set that ignores all of it''

Not saying you’re wrong but the cat has been out of the bag for years. This is not a new issue. ZOS decided many moons ago that their solution to balance was to create individual sets to solve issues going all the way back to when Vicious Death was introduced.

Every single issue in this game that has been around for more than 6 months has a set to deal with that issue. The problem is you can’t wear 47 different armor sets at once so everyone will have something to deal with.

My set is cheesy AF but it has massive weaknesses. My “skill” is shown by being smart enough to not put my toon into areas where he’d get melted and play solely towards his strengths.

Ragnarock41 · June 2018

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think they believe people don't PvP because its hard. They make stupid sets that would boost up their performance by literally doing the damage/healing for them , but they forget the fact that good players can use those stupid sets and abuse them 10 times better.

Truth. Steroids in a AA baseball player can make him a major leaguer. Steroids in an MVP like Barry Bonds make him into something the world has never seen since. Same concept applies here. Cheese is all well and good until the good players just say F it and do it as well.

This is easily preventable by:
..
..
..

Not making ridicilous sets to solve the bad gameplay you've created.

Zenimax handled the permablock problem well, I'm really disappointed that they went this route to solve the shield stacking/cloak spamming issues. These issues are more complicated than ''lets make a set that ignores all of it''

Not saying you’re wrong but the cat has been out of the bag for years. This is not a new issue. ZOS decided many moons ago that their solution to balance was to create individual sets to solve issues going all the way back to when Vicious Death was introduced.

Every single issue in this game that has been around for more than 6 months has a set to deal with that issue. The problem is you can’t wear 47 different armor sets at once so everyone will have something to deal with.

My set is cheesy AF but it has massive weaknesses. My “skill” is shown by being smart enough to not put my toon into areas where he’d get melted and play solely towards his strengths.

Its just sad. Such opportunity ... wasted. You know people always ask me why am I playing this game if I hate it so much and etc...
Truth is, I don't hate it.

I just realize what this game could have been, and I can't help but feel angry about it.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think they believe people don't PvP because its hard. They make stupid sets that would boost up their performance by literally doing the damage/healing for them , but they forget the fact that good players can use those stupid sets and abuse them 10 times better.

Truth. Steroids in a AA baseball player can make him a major leaguer. Steroids in an MVP like Barry Bonds make him into something the world has never seen since. Same concept applies here. Cheese is all well and good until the good players just say F it and do it as well.

This is easily preventable by:
..
..
..

Not making ridicilous sets to solve the bad gameplay you've created.

Zenimax handled the permablock problem well, I'm really disappointed that they went this route to solve the shield stacking/cloak spamming issues. These issues are more complicated than ''lets make a set that ignores all of it''

Not saying you’re wrong but the cat has been out of the bag for years. This is not a new issue. ZOS decided many moons ago that their solution to balance was to create individual sets to solve issues going all the way back to when Vicious Death was introduced.

Every single issue in this game that has been around for more than 6 months has a set to deal with that issue. The problem is you can’t wear 47 different armor sets at once so everyone will have something to deal with.

My set is cheesy AF but it has massive weaknesses. My “skill” is shown by being smart enough to not put my toon into areas where he’d get melted and play solely towards his strengths.

Its just sad. Such opportunity ... wasted. You know people always ask me why am I playing this game if I hate it so much and etc...
Truth is, I don't hate it.

I just realize what this game could have been, and I can't help but feel angry about it.

It’s pretty close to what I expected many years ago. We all agree lag stinks but it’s far and away the largest PVP game in number of people on screen on console. Most console games can’t handle 32 people let alone 100+ so I get that part. PC, hey, I dunno what the issue is there.

The procs and whatnot though ... how could you not expect that? Elder Scrolls - for me and all my buddies going back to Morrowind like 15 years ago - was always about creating the most insanely OP player you could. Remember The Boots of Slow Falling? I had a buddy who could fly in Morrowind cause of the cheese. This entire franchise is built upon it.

So when that gets unfurled on the world and there are a hundred people all at once playing a game whose legacy is making your character as insanely OP as imaginable, of course everyone is going to be attempting to play that way.

People blah blah blah on about “skill” in this game like it’s a game of 1 on 1 basketball in a 70 degree indoor gym that has no distractions. Cyrodiil isn’t that. You can be as skilled as you want but if I can beat you with cheesy nonsense quickly, I will, so I can move onto my next target. Eventually someone will have enough skill to force me to use things that are deeper in my bag of tricks.

Side note: I’m sure many of you watched The Avengers. Tony Stark has no super powers aside from being rich and smart. There is no way he could out fight even Hawkeye if he didn’t use all his cheesy gadgets. But he does, and as Ironman is quite effective. Skill is not just shown in your ability to hit buttons in the fastest way possible, but your ability to use the tools at your disposal effectively.

Ragnarock41 · June 2018

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think they believe people don't PvP because its hard. They make stupid sets that would boost up their performance by literally doing the damage/healing for them , but they forget the fact that good players can use those stupid sets and abuse them 10 times better.

Truth. Steroids in a AA baseball player can make him a major leaguer. Steroids in an MVP like Barry Bonds make him into something the world has never seen since. Same concept applies here. Cheese is all well and good until the good players just say F it and do it as well.

This is easily preventable by:
..
..
..

Not making ridicilous sets to solve the bad gameplay you've created.

Zenimax handled the permablock problem well, I'm really disappointed that they went this route to solve the shield stacking/cloak spamming issues. These issues are more complicated than ''lets make a set that ignores all of it''

Not saying you’re wrong but the cat has been out of the bag for years. This is not a new issue. ZOS decided many moons ago that their solution to balance was to create individual sets to solve issues going all the way back to when Vicious Death was introduced.

Every single issue in this game that has been around for more than 6 months has a set to deal with that issue. The problem is you can’t wear 47 different armor sets at once so everyone will have something to deal with.

My set is cheesy AF but it has massive weaknesses. My “skill” is shown by being smart enough to not put my toon into areas where he’d get melted and play solely towards his strengths.

Its just sad. Such opportunity ... wasted. You know people always ask me why am I playing this game if I hate it so much and etc...
Truth is, I don't hate it.

I just realize what this game could have been, and I can't help but feel angry about it.

It’s pretty close to what I expected many years ago. We all agree lag stinks but it’s far and away the largest PVP game in number of people on screen on console. Most console games can’t handle 32 people let alone 100+ so I get that part. PC, hey, I dunno what the issue is there.

The procs and whatnot though ... how could you not expect that? Elder Scrolls - for me and all my buddies going back to Morrowind like 15 years ago - was always about creating the most insanely OP player you could. Remember The Boots of Slow Falling? I had a buddy who could fly in Morrowind cause of the cheese. This entire franchise is built upon it.

So when that gets unfurled on the world and there are a hundred people all at once playing a game whose legacy is making your character as insanely OP as imaginable, of course everyone is going to be attempting to play that way.

People blah blah blah on about “skill” in this game like it’s a game of 1 on 1 basketball in a 70 degree indoor gym that has no distractions. Cyrodiil isn’t that. You can be as skilled as you want but if I can beat you with cheesy nonsense quickly, I will, so I can move onto my next target. Eventually someone will have enough skill to force me to use things that are deeper in my bag of tricks.

Side note: I’m sure many of you watched The Avengers. Tony Stark has no super powers aside from being rich and smart. There is no way he could out fight even Hawkeye if he didn’t use all his cheesy gadgets. But he does, and as Ironman is quite effective. Skill is not just shown in your ability to hit buttons in the fastest way possible, but your ability to use the tools at your disposal effectively.

Well firstly, I am not a huge elder scrolls fan. I've come to ESO cause I expected an AvA PvP with massive fights. Nobody could have known that this game would turn into a PvE focused game that tries to offer gameplay variety by sets instead of abilities based on your class-weapon combination.

Second, obviously rock-paper-scissorcs type of balancing is expected and is perfectly normal, but proc sets are the wrong way of doing it. But If you were to give players an ability that did oblivion damage, but gave it a limitation, a cooldown or other mechanics to apply, then that would be interesting counterplay against shieldstackers. But no. not sloads. that is not R-P-S type of gameplay. that is just cheese. Cheap cheese and nothing else.

Thirdly, Avengers is just a movie, and a very unrealistic one at that, I see your point but its not a good example for your case. And about using the tools at your arsenal, my second point applies here. There is a difference between cheese and counterplay tools. One works against a specific target, the other works no matter what.

For example, me using petrify against a permablocker is clear counterplay, meanwhile using master dw bleeds+defile to kill him is cheese. Cheese isn't always bad, its sometime needed to create balance, but there should be a limit obviously. Bleeds ignore resistances so its smart to use them against tanks, but whats the point if bleeds outperform any other dot in the game? That makes bleeds cheese and not counterplay. That is your difference right there. Sloads is very similar to bleeds on that part.

Last of all: Can we stop bulying hawkeye please .d

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think they believe people don't PvP because its hard. They make stupid sets that would boost up their performance by literally doing the damage/healing for them , but they forget the fact that good players can use those stupid sets and abuse them 10 times better.

Truth. Steroids in a AA baseball player can make him a major leaguer. Steroids in an MVP like Barry Bonds make him into something the world has never seen since. Same concept applies here. Cheese is all well and good until the good players just say F it and do it as well.

This is easily preventable by:
..
..
..

Not making ridicilous sets to solve the bad gameplay you've created.

Zenimax handled the permablock problem well, I'm really disappointed that they went this route to solve the shield stacking/cloak spamming issues. These issues are more complicated than ''lets make a set that ignores all of it''

Not saying you’re wrong but the cat has been out of the bag for years. This is not a new issue. ZOS decided many moons ago that their solution to balance was to create individual sets to solve issues going all the way back to when Vicious Death was introduced.

Every single issue in this game that has been around for more than 6 months has a set to deal with that issue. The problem is you can’t wear 47 different armor sets at once so everyone will have something to deal with.

My set is cheesy AF but it has massive weaknesses. My “skill” is shown by being smart enough to not put my toon into areas where he’d get melted and play solely towards his strengths.

Its just sad. Such opportunity ... wasted. You know people always ask me why am I playing this game if I hate it so much and etc...
Truth is, I don't hate it.

I just realize what this game could have been, and I can't help but feel angry about it.

It’s pretty close to what I expected many years ago. We all agree lag stinks but it’s far and away the largest PVP game in number of people on screen on console. Most console games can’t handle 32 people let alone 100+ so I get that part. PC, hey, I dunno what the issue is there.

The procs and whatnot though ... how could you not expect that? Elder Scrolls - for me and all my buddies going back to Morrowind like 15 years ago - was always about creating the most insanely OP player you could. Remember The Boots of Slow Falling? I had a buddy who could fly in Morrowind cause of the cheese. This entire franchise is built upon it.

So when that gets unfurled on the world and there are a hundred people all at once playing a game whose legacy is making your character as insanely OP as imaginable, of course everyone is going to be attempting to play that way.

People blah blah blah on about “skill” in this game like it’s a game of 1 on 1 basketball in a 70 degree indoor gym that has no distractions. Cyrodiil isn’t that. You can be as skilled as you want but if I can beat you with cheesy nonsense quickly, I will, so I can move onto my next target. Eventually someone will have enough skill to force me to use things that are deeper in my bag of tricks.

Side note: I’m sure many of you watched The Avengers. Tony Stark has no super powers aside from being rich and smart. There is no way he could out fight even Hawkeye if he didn’t use all his cheesy gadgets. But he does, and as Ironman is quite effective. Skill is not just shown in your ability to hit buttons in the fastest way possible, but your ability to use the tools at your disposal effectively.

Well firstly, I am not a huge elder scrolls fan. I've come to ESO cause I expected an AvA PvP with massive fights. Nobody could have known that this game would turn into a PvE focused game that tries to offer gameplay variety by sets instead of abilities based on your class-weapon combination.

Second, obviously rock-paper-scissorcs type of balancing is expected and is perfectly normal, but proc sets are the wrong way of doing it. But If you were to give players an ability that did oblivion damage, but gave it a limitation, a cooldown or other mechanics to apply, then that would be interesting counterplay against shieldstackers. But no. not sloads. that is not R-P-S type of gameplay. that is just cheese. Cheap cheese and nothing else.

Thirdly, Avengers is just a movie, and a very unrealistic one at that, I see your point but its not a good example for your case. And about using the tools at your arsenal, my second point applies here. There is a difference between cheese and counterplay tools. One works against a specific target, the other works no matter what.

For example, me using petrify against a permablocker is clear counterplay, meanwhile using master dw bleeds+defile to kill him is cheese. Cheese isn't always bad, its sometime needed to create balance, but there should be a limit obviously. Bleeds ignore resistances so its smart to use them against tanks, but whats the point if bleeds outperform any other dot in the game? That makes bleeds cheese and not counterplay. That is your difference right there. Sloads is very similar to bleeds on that part.

Last of all: Can we stop bulying hawkeye please .d

Fair points and sorry about Hawkeye!

Side note: Sloads in console has not been a big issue. Time Freeze though ... it’s EVERYWHERE.

LjAnimalchin · June 2018

Sload is crazy. The dot? Too much. But you have to ask yourselves why Zos felt the need to add it. Because sorc and nightblade are overperforming massively. People talk about sload being easy mode but sorc and to a lesser extent nightblade are literally just that. There is nothing "skilled" about endless shields that can be spammed with no cooldown or penalty, that literally double your health and act like an instant heal for half of your effective health, in one skill. There is nothing "skilled" about placing a shade, spamming dodge roll to get around a corner then teleporting away and cloaking off. Both of these things are trivial to do in PvP. Sload sucks yes but tbh PvP is not and probably will never be balanced unless you want to play magicka sorc or stamina nightblade.

Irylia · June 2018

LjAnimalchin wrote: »

Sload is crazy. The dot? Too much. But you have to ask yourselves why Zos felt the need to add it. Because sorc and nightblade are overperforming massively. People talk about sload being easy mode but sorc and to a lesser extent nightblade are literally just that. There is nothing "skilled" about endless shields that can be spammed with no cooldown or penalty, that literally double your health and act like an instant heal for half of your effective health, in one skill. There is nothing "skilled" about placing a shade, spamming dodge roll to get around a corner then teleporting away and cloaking off. Both of these things are trivial to do in PvP. Sload sucks yes but tbh PvP is not and probably will never be balanced unless you want to play magicka sorc or stamina nightblade.

You’re r3t4rd3d

Fixed so it wouldn’t be bleeped out.

Thogard · June 2018

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I’m mostly interested in how many people consider themselves “skillful” while using combat add-ons.

Say what you will about console, but you can get away with crazy stuff since no one has graphics shouting “BLOCK NOW!!!!” in 36 point font on their screen.

That’s only a thing in PvE...

lazerlaz · June 2018

Nyladreas wrote: »

I seriously want to know. This is still an ongoing issue and has always been.

Why are we letting seriously bad people who can't even predict the most simple basics of PVP win with their proc sets? And I don't mean guaranteed procs. I mean procs that are ranging from 5%-20% on hit/dot/heal whatever.

Doesn't this just scream bad design to you people? Does it just bother some of you when you see this happen? I was proud of becoming good at PVP only to realize that I actually barely stand a chance if I'm simply unlucky or get caught off guard by multiple procs from a single person. Heck, even if i beat them without much effort, it just feels so very wrong.

Is there even a point of running anything else? Is this how you, ZOS, promote diversity in PVP and your "play how you want" model? I really want to know some thoughts on this.

Not to mention there are leaderboards in the game which make absolutely 0 sense since it's either made up of A.) Coordinated Premades, B.) People who proc better than others (even if others use the same set - which is the saddest part).

I'm just not feeling it anymore. On top of that we have permablock tanks running Durok and Fasalla just to debuff everyone's healing into oblivion while the proc sets on others do their job.

I'm not even mad tbh, I'm just disappointed and bored. It's the same thing over and over, regardless of whether I win or lose a game. Perhaps it's time for me to quit and try a different game for a bit to get a "breath of fresh air".

Correct me if I'm wrong. I mean of course good players still can do much better with the same proc sets, I do as well (yes I joined the trainwreck myself), but it just feels so wrong and unrewarding. Unless all you care about is your epeen. Which is just terrible. People should have fun, not play the game to compensate.

This is not a game about skill anymore, rather a game of luck. Like your crown crate system ZOS.

Working as intended. Stop telling ZOS how YOU THINK their game mechanics should work. There are so many proc sets that clearly it's the nature of ESO and in fact most if not every MMO fantasy game out there. If you don't like the gameplay TAKE YOUR DREAMS SOMEWHERE ELSE.

DomiNate4NB · June 2018

The meta shifts and people lose their minds. Adapt and align to change. Embrace and flourish.

This keeps the game fresh imo.

Balance can be improved for sure. Doesn't mean you can't build to counterplay. That's what PVP is from small scale to large, counterplay.

Syncronaut · June 2018

If you strugle, use a counter-build.

Its realy that simple. If you dont want to be hit by a sload use a evasive set.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Hist+Bark+Set
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Spectre's+Eye+Set

This skill helps a lot:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Evasion
(med only)

CyrusArya · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Also I still want to ask, what makes bleeds any better than oblivion damage again? Other than the fact that oblivion damage does not scale with anything(can not crit either), but in return can go through shields?.

Is this a serious question? The whole point of oblivion damage is that it can’t be mitigated at all. That means going through shields, block, mist form, cp resistances etc. Its the universal nature of it that makes it strong. Bleeds are literally the exact same thing mechanically as any dot except for the fact that they bypass armor resistances. But either way you are still missing the point that it’s not oblivion damage that’s the issue. In a vacuum, oblivion damage just like bleeds is NOT op.

Stop setting up a strawman. The issue isn’t oblivion damage, the issue isn’t bleeds. The issue here is a specific set..sloads...which is a free damage proc that can be applied using any weapon and any skills, and hard counters shield builds and cloak. The only bleed set/build that overperforms is master dual wield. As a matter of fact, sloads is stronger than even master dual wield as a dot despite being way more accessible. In contrast, master axes require you to run dual wield. Which is what balances bleeds in general, as using dual wield requires you to give up the incredible utility and survivability of sword and board. Sloads can be used with anything on any class against any class.

Sevn · June 2018

Sylosi wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Sorry but i dont give a ***, i earned my exp in the hard way. I die, i raised again and died again god knows how many times to become a decent player. No shortcuts, no proc sets, then why new players should have diff path?
It doesnt make any sense. PVP should be a skill based gameplay, and not what pants ure wearing.

Actually players who have played this game a long time had it easy, not hard, the earlier a player started in this game the easier they had it, because the players they faced were also starting, so they as a new player were facing opponents who were also new and learning the game, not facing opponents with 3+ years of experience.

As for skill, really if you were genuinely concerned about playing a skilled PvP game, then you would not be playing ESO (or pretty much any MMORPG), this game is missing virtually all the fundamentals of what skilled PvP games have.

Skilled PvP games have skilled modes, that put players of similar skill levels against each other, because no one other than a clueless nabcake thinks beating some guy / team who are much worse for whatever reason is 'skilled'. ESO doesn't have skilled game modes it has an open world type RvR mode where 5 guys who have played the game since launch can gank some guy who has had the game a week, or BG which is three teams (/faceplam), with no meanignful matchmaking / MMR system, both are a joke in regard to skilled PvP.

Skilled PvP games also balance and design focused around that, ESO on the other hand has balance that is completely compromised by trying to balance for PvE & PvP, for raids, for BG, for zergs, for small scale, etc.

Skilled PvP games have a level playing field, so what counts is skill, not how long you've grinded your CP, gear grind, etc.

Lastly skilled PvP games have a competitive playerbase, that is what drives improvement, ESO doesn't, most ESO players (and I am talking PvP, let alone PvE) are frankly the opposite to competitve, which is of course is one of the reasons they are playing ESO and not a skilled PvP game...

My exact sentiments as well when I see the terms skillful pvp and eso in the same sentence. Makes you wonder why they choose eso pvp over dedicated pvp games doesn't it?

Gilvoth · June 2018

DomiNate4NB wrote: »

The meta shifts and people lose their minds. Adapt and align to change. Embrace and flourish.

This keeps the game fresh imo.

Balance can be improved for sure. Doesn't mean you can't build to counterplay. That's what PVP is from small scale to large, counterplay.

this ^^^
well said, and that is exactly what we have to do each patch.
good advice. adjust our builds to suit the changes.

Waffennacht · June 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

DomiNate4NB wrote: »

The meta shifts and people lose their minds. Adapt and align to change. Embrace and flourish.

This keeps the game fresh imo.

Balance can be improved for sure. Doesn't mean you can't build to counterplay. That's what PVP is from small scale to large, counterplay.

this ^^^
well said, and that is exactly what we have to do each patch.
good advice. adjust our builds to suit the changes.

While I don't always agree with you, I will say your posts have made a marked improvement for actual substance. I like what you have written this past week or so - though, again I may not agree @dwemer_paleologist

I have a feeling durok's, sload, and Zaan will be changed.

Wouldn't be surprised if durok's gets a 3 sec cooldown, sload gets a proc % decrease or tweak and Zaan will be more easily broken

pieratsos · June 2018

Syncronaut wrote: »

If you strugle, use a counter-build.

Its realy that simple. If you dont want to be hit by a sload use a evasive set.
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Hist+Bark+Set
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Spectre's+Eye+Set

This skill helps a lot:
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Evasion
(med only)

You heard it here first guys. Hist bark is the way to counter sloads. Get your sets now.

Ragnarock41 · June 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Also I still want to ask, what makes bleeds any better than oblivion damage again? Other than the fact that oblivion damage does not scale with anything(can not crit either), but in return can go through shields?.

Is this a serious question? The whole point of oblivion damage is that it can’t be mitigated at all. That means going through shields, block, mist form, cp resistances etc. Its the universal nature of it that makes it strong. Bleeds are literally the exact same thing mechanically as any dot except for the fact that they bypass armor resistances. But either way you are still missing the point that it’s not oblivion damage that’s the issue. In a vacuum, oblivion damage just like bleeds is NOT op.

Stop setting up a strawman. The issue isn’t oblivion damage, the issue isn’t bleeds. The issue here is a specific set..sloads...which is a free damage proc that can be applied using any weapon and any skills, and hard counters shield builds and cloak. The only bleed set/build that overperforms is master dual wield. As a matter of fact, sloads is stronger than even master dual wield as a dot despite being way more accessible. In contrast, master axes require you to run dual wield. Which is what balances bleeds in general, as using dual wield requires you to give up the incredible utility and survivability of sword and board. Sloads can be used with anything on any class against any class.

I don't think bleeds completely ignoring resistances is balanced. Blood craze itself, even without master dw, does more damage than claws.

Oblivion damage does not scale, it does not crit. Meanwhile the bleeds do scale, they do crit. You can not mitigate it in any way as a Dk. and if it does enough damage per second to you, you automaticly lose as a result.

Just the fact that people believe bleed builds are fine but sloads are not, is proof that you people only care about what gets YOU killed, and nothing else. If its the cheese YOU use, then it is totally fine of course.

Feanor · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Also I still want to ask, what makes bleeds any better than oblivion damage again? Other than the fact that oblivion damage does not scale with anything(can not crit either), but in return can go through shields?.

Is this a serious question? The whole point of oblivion damage is that it can’t be mitigated at all. That means going through shields, block, mist form, cp resistances etc. Its the universal nature of it that makes it strong. Bleeds are literally the exact same thing mechanically as any dot except for the fact that they bypass armor resistances. But either way you are still missing the point that it’s not oblivion damage that’s the issue. In a vacuum, oblivion damage just like bleeds is NOT op.

Stop setting up a strawman. The issue isn’t oblivion damage, the issue isn’t bleeds. The issue here is a specific set..sloads...which is a free damage proc that can be applied using any weapon and any skills, and hard counters shield builds and cloak. The only bleed set/build that overperforms is master dual wield. As a matter of fact, sloads is stronger than even master dual wield as a dot despite being way more accessible. In contrast, master axes require you to run dual wield. Which is what balances bleeds in general, as using dual wield requires you to give up the incredible utility and survivability of sword and board. Sloads can be used with anything on any class against any class.

I don't think bleeds completely ignoring resistances is balanced. Blood craze itself, even without master dw, does more damage than claws.

Oblivion damage does not scale, it does not crit. Meanwhile the bleeds do scale, they do crit. You can not mitigate it in any way as a Dk. and if it does enough damage per second to you, you automaticly lose as a result.

Just the fact that people believe bleed builds are fine but sloads are not, is proof that you people only care about what gets YOU killed, and nothing else. If its the cheese YOU use, then it is totally fine of course.

I do agree that bleed builds are very overturned in controlled environments such as 1v1 or BGs. I also still think that bleeds should be toned down - the reason brought up against this is always that they’re needed vs tanky players. I don’t think so - as soon as you reduce the ability of tanky players to kill something to a minimum I assume you’d see a lot players build less tanky. Killing is more fun than turtling. Right now the tanky setups just have too few downsides.

CyrusArya · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I don't think bleeds completely ignoring resistances is balanced. Blood craze itself, even without master dw, does more damage than claws.

Oblivion damage does not scale, it does not crit. Meanwhile the bleeds do scale, they do crit. You can not mitigate it in any way as a Dk. and if it does enough damage per second to you, you automaticly lose as a result.

Just the fact that people believe bleed builds are fine but sloads are not, is proof that you people only care about what gets YOU killed, and nothing else. If its the cheese YOU use, then it is totally fine of course.

I guess you’re completely missing my point. What makes Sloads so strong is the very fact that oblivion damage goes thru every form of mitigation. Wether or not it crit or scales is a moot point in light of this.This is nothing like bleeds simply ignoring resistance. Penetrating shields and breaking cloak is a huge deal from an overall balance standpoint. Moreover, it’s the fact sloads can be used by any build with any weapons. This is what makes it so strong. The accessibility. Bleeds require dual wield which has advantages, disadvantages, and drawbacks. As a dk and as any class, you counter bleeds the way you do any other dots. Cus that’s literally all they are..dots. If you’re finding that bleed builds are an automatic loss for you as a dk, then I’m sorry but you’re just not a very good one. Stam DKs are winning Legend dueling tournaments all the time even with bleed specs present. More than any other class in fact.

Bleeds exist for a reason and serve an important purpose, on top of adding variety to the game. Variety is good. While certain bleed specs can be cheesy (paired with defiles for example), on their own they are not cheesy or overpowered...just strong like a dozen other things in the game.

Mayrael · June 2018

Minalan wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

over powered builds are the problem, not the armor not the weapons.
just need some nerfs made to certain builds, all that is needed.
this patch feels better and i believe every patch we see has been and will continue to be balance made.
eso is doing Great Job at balance.

i mean that sincerely, just being honest.

How often have you died now because sloads wouldn’t let you cloak?

You call that ‘skilled counterplay’?

TBH, since summerset launch maybe 2 times (I play almost every day 2-4 hours). I see sload on my death recaps pretty often but it deals pretty low damage when compared to other things on the recap (like surprise attack spam hitting for 6k).

Mayrael · June 2018

Nyladreas wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

And while casuals do make up majority of the player base, its the "good" players that continue to develop the game and community. Otherwise we'd all be pet sorcs running bows spamming light attacks.

This is already true from what I've seen today, just slightly different... 9 out of 10 BGs, it's everyone with SnB and Staff, running Purge and Sload and Valkyn/Zaan and Cal and spamming light attacks hoping to kill stuff with it. Seriously... Or bleed builds at most xD which are just fine.

This is what happens when everyone starts to use these overtuned sets, people look for a way to defend against them, so now everyone uses the same identical build like monkeys trying to copy each other.

The game is absolutely reduced to garbage now, and people still support it which is shocking. What's the point of the game if the game plays for you while you watch? Everything is a boring meta that holds your hand and ESO is becoming just another boring MMO. In my opinion. Or at least definitely not the game I fell in love with.

As I said in the OP.... This is not a game about skill anymore, rather a game of luck. Like your crown crate system, ZOS.

Maybe but somehow good players are still able to kill and not get killed (Derra looking at you) even Vs boards of so called "cheese" users. Trust me if they would completly remove proc sets today, tomorrow forums would be flooded with "class balance" threads because good players would adapt and still would kill "casuals acting like they're not casuals".