PVP: Why are we allowing really bad players to win with proc sets?

Kadoin

Blanco wrote: »

It is a game of luck I think most people just couldn't figure out the game which is why they had to implement more rng factors proc sets etc thats what I think.

I think the same. It really is more luck-based than skill based to me. There is so much RNG in combat, you can't be certain of anything, even death.

Mihael

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Honestly, l2p issue. These sets need nerfed but they are also available to everyone and choosing not to use them if you feel they’re overperforming is a build decision you’ve made

Incase this wasn’t a sarcastic post

How are you going to say that it’s a l2p issue and in the sentence after that admit to the sets needing a nerf and overperforming? A l2p issue is someone complaining they died to wings because they didn’t know it reflected projectiles. Someone not equipping a set because it’s overperforming (sets that I’m a world where it doesn’t take zos 6+ months to fix would get needed immediately) is not a 12p issue. If anything people who don’t use these sets and still perform well are the ones who know how to play since they aren’t relying on training wheels sets in order to play. But at the end of they it’s whatever excuse helps players feel better

GreenSoup2HoT

eso is now a role playing game. this isnt smash bros melee ya know what i mean?

idk

PvP leaderboards are merely who spends the most productive AP time in game. Plenty of times the top of the boards has not been the best fighters but the best at getting AP.

Do not get me wrong, not saying the top or the leaderboards are scrubs, but OP made a comment about the boards.

Sharee

Nyladreas wrote: »

With that being said... It doesn't even really help new players that much, in fact I believe it makes WAY WAY WAY worse for them as they have no idea what the hell is even happening when they die.

I'm sure getting annihilated in 1 second instead is much better for them.

Mojomonkeyman

Sharee wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

With that being said... It doesn't even really help new players that much, in fact I believe it makes WAY WAY WAY worse for them as they have no idea what the hell is even happening when they die.

I'm sure getting annihilated in 1 second instead is much better for them.

Well, we all got annihilated when we started playing. Yet we became good without procsets (since there was none back then). That era apparently also produced the greatest number of good pvp players. I think there is some correlation.

I actually think this whole "raising the floor" is a disservice to their players, its bad parenting. Players must be educated and incentivized to improve - and they will over time. You don't buy a pair of rocket shoes to make your kid a better basketball player, you teach it how to play better, how to accept losses and learn from them.

Sharee

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

With that being said... It doesn't even really help new players that much, in fact I believe it makes WAY WAY WAY worse for them as they have no idea what the hell is even happening when they die.

I'm sure getting annihilated in 1 second instead is much better for them.

Well, we all got annihilated when we started playing. Yet we became good without procsets (since there was none back then). That era apparently also produced the greatest number of good pvp players. I think there is some correlation.

I actually think this whole "raising the floor" is a disservice to their players, its bad parenting. Players must be educated and incentivized to improve - and they will over time. You don't buy a pair of rocket shoes to make your kid a better basketball player, you teach it how to play better, how to accept losses and learn from them.

1, My reply was to the claim that a set which acts slow to kill is somehow way way worse for newbies than what we had until now (instakills). Nope.

2, Sload does not "make newbies good". A newbie in sload will still die as easily as without it. He also won't get any more kills with it unless he is in a zerg who is chasing that one 'immortal' sorc.

Now think about it: what would the newbie do if there was no sload? yep - exactly the same thing, chase the sorc with the rest of the zerg, the only difference would be that the sorc actually survived.

So this whole "It's bad for the newbies!!!" is a farce. Its neither bad nor good for them. It's just bad for the sorc.

Rohamad_Ali

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Honestly, l2p issue. These sets need nerfed but they are also available to everyone and choosing not to use them if you feel they’re overperforming is a build decision you’ve made

It is as simple as this . Well said @Lexxypwns

Lexxypwns

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Honestly, l2p issue. These sets need nerfed but they are also available to everyone and choosing not to use them if you feel they’re overperforming is a build decision you’ve made

It is as simple as this . Well said @Lexxypwns

I don’t enjoy this meta at all. But tbh, I enjoy facing it while handicapping myself much less. Just embrace it and enjoy good fights against other meta users while slaughtering masses of people who are still handicapping themselves

amir412

JobooAGS wrote: »

Its a matter of having new players not constantly getting steam rolled all the time and therefore remain in the game. If someone comes into pvp, and gets steamrolled instantly, then they are less likely to continue playing. With proc sets, such new players will have a chance to compete aganist the better, more experienced players and therefore remain in the game therefore more revenue to the game. Similar to the grenade launcher (noob tube) from call of duty

There is a whole video on imperfect balance that explains this

Nyladreas wrote: »

So glad many people proved my point, whether it was knowingly and intentionally or not... Does not matter. Thank you.

Also speaking of new players not getting steamrolled... It's how PVP is. Show me any game out there you can win from day one because something special holds your hand. Yeah I thought so. As one of the people above stated... We earned our places in PVP through hard work and stressful experiences, being able to 1v4 without proc sets felt like an amazing achievement.

With that being said... It doesn't even really help new players that much, in fact I believe it makes WAY WAY WAY worse for them as they have no idea what the hell is even happening when they die. I have seen it with my own eyes. I can still steamroll new players with the same sets or different sets easily. I'll just assume you need an excuse to keep the procs going.

PS: I can still play the game well and found an easy workaround for sload and other proc sets. I'm once again here to remind you all, that the point of this topic is about how unsatisfying, boring and unflavourful PVP is becoming. It's not a whine topic about losing. Some people seem to have a really hard time understanding that.

The thing about a DOU or SOLO, is for one mistake u make, u can die hard.
But for their multipile mistake, they can keep carry on. Pathetic gameplay.

Emma_Overload

Nyladreas wrote: »

I seriously want to know...

I'll tell you exactly why. Ever play Monopoly with a babysitter when you were a kid? Chances are pretty good that one of the "rules" was that you could win a ton of money if you happened to land on Free Parking. Of course, as most adults know, that's not a real rule of Monopoly at all!

So why did the babysitter have a special, made-up rule for Free Parking? For the same reason that ZOS adds these dumb proc sets: They want weak players to win sometimes!

bardx86

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

With that being said... It doesn't even really help new players that much, in fact I believe it makes WAY WAY WAY worse for them as they have no idea what the hell is even happening when they die.

I'm sure getting annihilated in 1 second instead is much better for them.

Well, we all got annihilated when we started playing. Yet we became good without procsets (since there was none back then). That era apparently also produced the greatest number of good pvp players. I think there is some correlation.

I actually think this whole "raising the floor" is a disservice to their players, its bad parenting. Players must be educated and incentivized to improve - and they will over time. You don't buy a pair of rocket shoes to make your kid a better basketball player, you teach it how to play better, how to accept losses and learn from them.

1, My reply was to the claim that a set which acts slow to kill is somehow way way worse for newbies than what we had until now (instakills). Nope.

2, Sload does not "make newbies good". A newbie in sload will still die as easily as without it. He also won't get any more kills with it unless he is in a zerg who is chasing that one 'immortal' sorc.

Now think about it: what would the newbie do if there was no sload? yep - exactly the same thing, chase the sorc with the rest of the zerg, the only difference would be that the sorc actually survived.

So this whole "It's bad for the newbies!!!" is a farce. Its neither bad nor good for them. It's just bad for the sorc.

Ya i don't get argument either. It just makes already great player even more dangerous. I was a dumb idea to allow this.

CompM4s

These threads start every patch by the same people who are basically sore losers. There are plenty of viable builds both with and without proc sets. Players want participation trophies/ instant gratification and will complain about anything if they lose.

Gilvoth

CompM4s wrote: »

These threads start every patch by the same people who are basically sore losers. There are plenty of viable builds both with and without proc sets. Players want participation trophies/ instant gratification and will complain about anything if they lose.

well said.
you are right on the money.
every patch i adjust my build and make changes best i can to stay as a contender.
we all have to do that. and thats a good thing because it makes our minds work and keeps us healthy.

pcar944

welcome to 2 years ago

ZoS does NOT care about PVP

Duukar

In BGs sorc are out of control(rune cage into meteor anyone?).

Sloads is out of control. Worst idea ever. You don't even need to farm it ffs.....

CC is really freakin weird in BGs too.. Break free? hmm wtf?? hmm am I CCed again? Or am I just already dead but i see alive??

I've pretty much had it at this point.

Betsararie

PVP has gotten so strange I've never seen anything like it.

NyassaV

Bad players have to much power in PvP. Yet not enough in PvE

THEDKEXPERIENCE

If you can heal or shield then procs aren’t a big deal. If you can’t do one or both of those things you should probably reevaluate being alone in Cyrodiil.

Nyladreas

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

These threads start every patch by the same people who are basically sore losers. There are plenty of viable builds both with and without proc sets. Players want participation trophies/ instant gratification and will complain about anything if they lose.

well said.
you are right on the money.
every patch i adjust my build and make changes best i can to stay as a contender.
we all have to do that. and thats a good thing because it makes our minds work and keeps us healthy.

You both are wrong, I never complained about losing. You're just assuming so you can fit in your own side of the argument and collect forum reactions. That's how I see it anyway. Read my post again.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Honestly, l2p issue. These sets need nerfed but they are also available to everyone and choosing not to use them if you feel they’re overperforming is a build decision you’ve made

It is as simple as this . Well said @Lexxypwns

I don’t enjoy this meta at all. But tbh, I enjoy facing it while handicapping myself much less. Just embrace it and enjoy good fights against other meta users while slaughtering masses of people who are still handicapping themselves

This is truth.

Play to win, don't invent made-up rules in your head and then get angry when people don't follow those rules.

Sylosi

amir412 wrote: »

Sorry but i dont give a ***, i earned my exp in the hard way. I die, i raised again and died again god knows how many times to become a decent player. No shortcuts, no proc sets, then why new players should have diff path?
It doesnt make any sense. PVP should be a skill based gameplay, and not what pants ure wearing.

Actually players who have played this game a long time had it easy, not hard, the earlier a player started in this game the easier they had it, because the players they faced were also starting, so they as a new player were facing opponents who were also new and learning the game, not facing opponents with 3+ years of experience.

As for skill, really if you were genuinely concerned about playing a skilled PvP game, then you would not be playing ESO (or pretty much any MMORPG), this game is missing virtually all the fundamentals of what skilled PvP games have.

Skilled PvP games have skilled modes, that put players of similar skill levels against each other, because no one other than a clueless nabcake thinks beating some guy / team who are much worse for whatever reason is 'skilled'. ESO doesn't have skilled game modes it has an open world type RvR mode where 5 guys who have played the game since launch can gank some guy who has had the game a week, or BG which is three teams (/faceplam), with no meanignful matchmaking / MMR system, both are a joke in regard to skilled PvP.

Skilled PvP games also balance and design focused around that, ESO on the other hand has balance that is completely compromised by trying to balance for PvE & PvP, for raids, for BG, for zergs, for small scale, etc.

Skilled PvP games have a level playing field, so what counts is skill, not how long you've grinded your CP, gear grind, etc.

Lastly skilled PvP games have a competitive playerbase, that is what drives improvement, ESO doesn't, most ESO players (and I am talking PvP, let alone PvE) are frankly the opposite to competitve, which is of course is one of the reasons they are playing ESO and not a skilled PvP game...

pieratsos

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

With that being said... It doesn't even really help new players that much, in fact I believe it makes WAY WAY WAY worse for them as they have no idea what the hell is even happening when they die.

I'm sure getting annihilated in 1 second instead is much better for them.

Well, we all got annihilated when we started playing. Yet we became good without procsets (since there was none back then). That era apparently also produced the greatest number of good pvp players. I think there is some correlation.

I actually think this whole "raising the floor" is a disservice to their players, its bad parenting. Players must be educated and incentivized to improve - and they will over time. You don't buy a pair of rocket shoes to make your kid a better basketball player, you teach it how to play better, how to accept losses and learn from them.

1, My reply was to the claim that a set which acts slow to kill is somehow way way worse for newbies than what we had until now (instakills). Nope.

2, Sload does not "make newbies good". A newbie in sload will still die as easily as without it. He also won't get any more kills with it unless he is in a zerg who is chasing that one 'immortal' sorc.

Now think about it: what would the newbie do if there was no sload? yep - exactly the same thing, chase the sorc with the rest of the zerg, the only difference would be that the sorc actually survived.

So this whole "It's bad for the newbies!!!" is a farce. Its neither bad nor good for them. It's just bad for the sorc.

Exactly. The good player survived and maybe even killed the bad players. And those bad players were actually amazed by that, they wanted to become like that good player asked for advices, and through practice they became the good players killing the bad players. Of course there are the exceptions of ignorant bad players but generally that's what a healthy gameplay looks like and it used to be like that to a certain degree.

Now what do u have. An rng based gameplay where everyone is op and bad. An environment where people are more busy sending hate tells to each other instead of asking advices etc because quite frankly that's the consequence of proc sets and crap like that. Unhealthy gameplay and a toxic environment.

Ragnaroek93

They should add a training room or whatever instead of reducing the skill cap even more.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

I’m mostly interested in how many people consider themselves “skillful” while using combat add-ons.

Say what you will about console, but you can get away with crazy stuff since no one has graphics shouting “BLOCK NOW!!!!” in 36 point font on their screen.

pieratsos

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I’m mostly interested in how many people consider themselves “skillful” while using combat add-ons.

Say what you will about console, but you can get away with crazy stuff since no one has graphics shouting “BLOCK NOW!!!!” in 36 point font on their screen.

If you are relying on add on to tell you when to block or dodge you are not gonna go far.

Ocelot9x

What really bother me about this meta is that is punishing solo/small scaling players more than others.
Sets like sloads,zaan,calurion,viper,skoria and all the proc trash are good only when you outnumber your opponent.
The fastest way to learn is to run alone and keep respawning every time you die and after some time you'll start getting kills and respawning less.
That's how people get good.
With all those sets doing the job for them,new players will never learn and once they get tired of Xv1ing ppl or the meta shift they'll quit.
Meanwhile it's almost impossible to solo play(unless u run in absolutely potatoes) so lot of experienced people are enjoying the game less.

Ragnarock41

I think they believe people don't PvP because its hard. They make stupid sets that would boost up their performance by literally doing the damage/healing for them , but they forget the fact that good players can use those stupid sets and abuse them 10 times better.

Also I still want to ask, what makes bleeds any better than oblivion damage again? Other than the fact that oblivion damage does not scale with anything(can not crit either), but in return can go through shields?

Tell me, is this yet another magsorc's Personal rant? Or are you actually worried about proc sets?

Viper was the nastiest, most broken proc set this game probably ever saw. Sloads does not even come close. So what makes you say ''guaranteed procs are fine''?

I'm just curious to understand your philosophy. Is the problem RNG for you? What about crits then? You see, procs are only one of the problems as to why PvP is not competitive in this game.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think they believe people don't PvP because its hard. They make stupid sets that would boost up their performance by literally doing the damage/healing for them , but they forget the fact that good players can use those stupid sets and abuse them 10 times better.

Truth. Steroids in a AA baseball player can make him a major leaguer. Steroids in an MVP like Barry Bonds make him into something the world has never seen since. Same concept applies here. Cheese is all well and good until the good players just say F it and do it as well.

Ragnarock41

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think they believe people don't PvP because its hard. They make stupid sets that would boost up their performance by literally doing the damage/healing for them , but they forget the fact that good players can use those stupid sets and abuse them 10 times better.

Truth. Steroids in a AA baseball player can make him a major leaguer. Steroids in an MVP like Barry Bonds make him into something the world has never seen since. Same concept applies here. Cheese is all well and good until the good players just say F it and do it as well.

This is easily preventable by:
..
..
..

Not making ridicilous sets to solve the bad gameplay you've created.

Zenimax handled the permablock problem well, I'm really disappointed that they went this route to solve the shield stacking/cloak spamming issues. These issues are more complicated than ''lets make a set that ignores all of it''

PS: I secretly enjoyed this sload set destroying all the magsorcs and stamblades, cause honestly they needed to be reminded that they are not god tier players that they thought they were. But being honest sloads and many others are getting out of control, we have the procapocalypse 2 happening, with zaan, calurion,doylemish and many, many others. Some people even consider master dw as cheese proc nowadays.