How to counter sloads semblance in PvP

Johnmirolha

Sload's is fine the way it is, if we're talking about a 1v1 situation.
The problem imo is that Sload's stack from more than 1 source. How do you play against 3 (or more) Sload's being a stamina character, relying on vigor and rally for heals? This is whats happening right now in cyrodiil.

Zinaroth

Vaoh wrote: »

I wonder when the whole NB vs Sorc thing started. Of all of the time I have spent on this forum, easily the dumbest thing I’ve read were the NB vs Sorc discussions (which is a loooooot of posts). Some people really see this game like that and it’s so sad tbh.

It started with 1.6 when those two classes became the kings of PvP and has continued ever since because they have continuously maintained that position in one way or another.

Rohamad_Ali

Thank you Jack Daniels .

ssewallb14_ESO

Having to build to counter an individual set is bad design. It encourages the build v build gameplay that this game already has a problem with. Counterplay should be based around gameplay actions, not build tuning.

Imagine if every set in the game required build tuning to counter. It would reduce the entire game to whoever gets lucky enough to encounter builds that their build happens to counter.

Tan9oSuccka

pieratsos wrote: »

You know things are bad when we literally got to the point of discussing how we all have to wear specific sets to counter other specific sets.

Isn’t that the definition of balance? You have to make choices.

Like running shield breaker to combat a couple good shield stacking Sorcerers. You will do well against shields, but miserable against high resistance targets.

Choices. I like Sloads. Makes the yolo swag glass cannons think about their build, well in practice. They mostly come here to complain.

JackDaniell

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Having to build to counter an individual set is bad design. It encourages the build v build gameplay that this game already has a problem with. Counterplay should be based around gameplay actions, not build tuning.

Imagine if every set in the game required build tuning to counter. It would reduce the entire game to whoever gets lucky enough to encounter builds that their build happens to counter.

If you re-read the first statement i made, this is a guide on how to counter a DOT/condition build not just one set (if you only read the title i understand your context). Sloads is not the first set of its kind, and this build archtype has been around since release. Infact the general piont i was making is that this style of play has been here since release and now that its becoming more prevelent people are just learning to counter it. These people fall in the same catagory as "defile is op" camp. The problem is that thier is counterplay that they are refusing to use, instead they wanting thier singular defence tactic to be effective against all.

Maybe im biased as a solo player who has always felt the need to run a very rounded defence kit in order to find good success in pvp. Maybe its wrong to think that just spammig a shield or holding block is far to easy defensive play and the requirement to manage conditions actualy adds some thought to the defensive proccess. I think ESO is a better game for adding these layers to pvp of play/counterplay. The most fun i have had on a build is one that has a rounded deffensive and offensive kit, and never relies on a singular defence for survival.

JackDaniell

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

VexingArcanist wrote: »

Yes please everyone play a meta build specifically to counter an overtuned set. Yes you either play the meta or you play against it.

So slot skills just to counter this ONE set.

GOGO.

lol, its just another DoT, and not a particularly strong one, big deal if it goes through shields, who cares? Is it so hard not to rely on your shield crutch to survive? I see this as no worse than Viper myself, or any number of other DoT proc sets...it is only more effective than those against shield spammers...against everyone else its the same.

1) Which other reliable ways of defense do magsorcs have? Streak isn't as good as some people make it out to be. Surge is mainly RNG. Dark Deal is a channel. Pets are suboptimal in open world.

2) I'd say NBs suffer more from this set than "shield spammers". But what do I know.

Mag sorcs will need a purge in pvp to counter a strong DOT build that is heavy on oblivion damage (eiher slot a skill or run a set). Even when fighting sloads you should still keep your damage shields up as a majority of damage is coming from other sources. If they only have sloads as thier singular DOT and are otherwise playing a burst spec you need no purge at all and should have no problems even on a sorc. Surge would easily outheal sloads alone.

As for nbs i think its a bug that sloads is breaking cloak. No other single target dot in the game acts like this and when they have in the past zenimax has normalized them to be supressed by cloak.

Rianai

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Isn’t that the definition of balance? You have to make choices.

It is only balanced, if the options you can choose from are equally good.

JackDaniell wrote: »

Sloads is not the first set of its kind[...]

... but it outperforms those other sets by a significant margin. Which is the definition of imbalance.
Sloads isn't a build, it is a set, and as such it needs to be compared to other sets, not to whole builds or skills. If one set is clearly better than many others for a majority of builds (not even just dedicated DoT builds), there is something wrong.

ssewallb14_ESO

JackDaniell wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Having to build to counter an individual set is bad design. It encourages the build v build gameplay that this game already has a problem with. Counterplay should be based around gameplay actions, not build tuning.

Imagine if every set in the game required build tuning to counter. It would reduce the entire game to whoever gets lucky enough to encounter builds that their build happens to counter.

If you re-read the first statement i made, this is a guide on how to counter a DOT/condition build not just one set (if you only read the title i understand your context).

My response was more directed at the discussion happening in the thread, not specifically at your list of skill and sets that counter sloads or Dots in general. Though you do make the claim that Sloads is fine later and enter the discussion on nerfs, so this statement isn't entirely accurate.

Sloads is not the first set of its kind, and this build archtype has been around since release. Infact the general piont i was making is that this style of play has been here since release and now that its becoming more prevelent people are just learning to counter it.

You're conflating Sloads with dot builds in general. I don't have any problem with dot builds, I'm actually glad they're more viable now. Dots are strong against blocking and shields, but can be countered by damage avoidance, hots, mitigation, purges, and active damage reduction. There's a range of play and counterplay here, this is balance. The problem with sloads is it bypasses every defensive mechanic in the game other than hots and purges, such that a class or build without these two mechanics must alter their build, rather than their playstyle, in response to a single set. This creates build vs build gameplay, rather than player vs player.

These people fall in the same catagory as "defile is op" camp. The problem is that thier is counterplay that they are refusing to use,

It's not counter"play" though, its counterbuild. The "play" aspect amounts to going into your inventory or skill window and equiping a set or skill. It's settled before a fight even happens.

instead they wanting thier singular defence tactic to be effective against all. Maybe im biased as a solo player who has always felt the need to run a very rounded defence kit in order to find good success in pvp. Maybe its wrong to think that just spammig a shield or holding block is far to easy defensive play and the requirement to manage conditions actualy adds some thought to the defensive proccess.

...this just seems dishonest. There's no way a player of your caliber believes a class' defensive kit amounts to a single tactic against everything. Every class has a range of defensive mechanics, and you play your class differently depending on what you run into, you know this.

I think ESO is a better game for adding these layers to pvp of play/counterplay. The most fun i have had on a build is one that has a rounded deffensive and offensive kit, and never relies on a singular defence for survival.

...k. I just don't agree that "rounded" entails "must be running 1 of 2 very specific defensive mechanics to counter 1 set." We can disagree though.

Own

One defensive set to keep bad players from dying, one offensive set to proc damage for the bad players. I'm convinced that's what they want.

JumpmanLane

Own wrote: »

One defensive set to keep bad players from dying, one offensive set to proc damage for the bad players. I'm convinced that's what they want.

I agree. I think that’s ZOS’s idea of balance for PvP. There’s no real tutorial for PvP. A new player has no idea at all what to expect. They rush out to Vivec as a wide eyed noob at level 10 and get wrecked and wrecked. They eschew PvP. They whine if they are Stam and realize they have to PvP to get vigor. This is ZOS’s way of retaining new PvP players. Instead of asking for nerfs, folks should devise ways to make casual, bad Zerged up peasants quit PvP altogether. Kill them and kill them some more.

Lylith

Own wrote: »

One defensive set to keep bad players from dying, one offensive set to proc damage for the bad players. I'm convinced that's what they want.

and two overpriced, crafted rings to rule them all.

Emma_Overload

NTclaymore wrote: »

Sload to me just seems like the counter to shieldspam that Shieldbreaker should have been. Shieldbreaker has 2-4 bonuses that focus on stamina making it hard to justify using it on a mag PvP build. Sload as stated above allready doesnt scale with anything like mag or stam so both types can use and us with tanks that still want to go thru the BG daily now have a set that allows us to actully do something in deathmatches. not much but something.

Is it a problem? I dont think so. Sets that boosts damage in general will hit harder. but that statboost doesnt show up on the death recap, you can only see the sets effect by the higher numbers on each skill making it harder to work out whats going on. Sload however appears in your death recap so its easier to blame it. that doesnt mean that its the problem.
Sload is allso easily available since its craftable while other sets that show up on your death recap like Caluurion and Zaan are not just locked behind DLC (you can ask someone to craft you sload, you cant ask someone to trade you Caluurion if you cant go to fang lair) they are allso not the easiest of dungeons and takes time to get.

No counterplay? It is "Just" 5k damage over actully quite a long time. the problem for shieldspammers is that it is the counter for what had no true counter before other than the too specialized Shieldbreaker. you can purge it and the whole "It will just be reapplied" that can be said about every dot in the game ever so that either makes purge useless or the arguement invalid. My nightblade after being hit by a coldfire would say purge seems usefull.

Does sload then needs fixing? YES. what you guys really should complain about is the fact that it ingores the suppression made by cloak and therefore pulls NBs out of stealth. That needs to addressed. that cant be intented. otherwise it seems fine to me. If you think the damage it does is behond anything else. take it to a training dummy and see the results in terms of actual DPS. its a shield counter thats not completely useless against non-sheld enemies. Its good but its not broken.

So Sload's is fine when it counters shield-stacking Sorcs, but not when it counters cloaking Nightblades?

LOL, get outta here!

Troneon

JackDaniell wrote: »

Just gonna drop a bit of info regarding counters to sloads but more specificly counters to a DOT/condition build.

Efficient purge removes 2 negative effects AND halves the duration of negative effects for 4 secconds. This means that even if your purge removes no DOTs, it still cuts a massive amout of damage away (up to 50% if you purge right away). Allot of people do not take this seccondary and arguably better effect into account when evaluating this skill for anti DOT gameplay. This is by far the most availible purge to everyone and only requires you to slot it and not have abysmal mag sustain as YOU DONT NEED TO SPAM IT!

Mutagen removes one negative effect and heals you when you drop below 20% hp. This is a cheap condition removal skill that can help out if your running resto.

Wyrd tree set removes 5 negative effects every 15 secconds when you cast a magicka skill. You can run this set on a backbar to preserve a damage front bar, and jewlery crafting means you can use this with ideal jewlery traits now. This is a seriously good set for adding counter DOT play to a mag build (even stam build as they can utilize the mag recovery it gives).

Meridias blessed armor 5 peice will cause you opponent to miss all attacks for 5 secconds when you block an attack. This includes DOTs! This is a particularly good set as it also offers a huge defensive bonus against non DOT gameplay and is the best choice for a stamina anti DOT set (but can yet again work for mag to thanks to jewlery crafting).

Templar gets the best purge as a class skill, if you really cant deal with sloads try out templar in pvp. They literaly just shrug dots off and you will find sets like sloads a non issue.

Warden gets 1 negative effect removal from betty netch, this is the only "free" purge skill in the game (you actualy gain magicka when you cast it) but it is not very strong.

I hope this helps some people out. Regarding sloads as a set i think its fine (comparable to sheer venom or vipers sting). If I run counter play to it i have no issues fighting it. If the set is bugged and does not function as the tooltip states it should be fixed to function as such.

So should sloads be nerfed? No i dont think so. Conditions/DOTs have always been a part of PvP and people for the most part dont normaly run counter play to it (cant beat rock with scissors). If anything i would love to see ZOS add some more sources of purge/condition counterplay to the game. We have some good options but i dont think its nearly enough!

This is COMPLETE AND UTTER BS POST.

Full Tank / Heal / Support, insane amount of cleanse etc

Sloads just procs over and over and over, remove a dozen times and IT INSTANTLY RE APPLIES.

Please just STFU defending this BS set THAT I HAVE EVEN STARTED TO USE, I now outlast all enemy damage dealers and just let sloads slowly kill them over time.....it's broken and is more like 100% proc chance on every hit, dots are procing it every time.

Tommy_The_Gun

Troneon wrote: »

I had "similar" situation...
On death recap:
Assasin's Will - 4.8K dmg
Sload - 5.7K dmg (7 ticks - which means sload proced immediately after 6 sec. )



So a set is preforming better than a skill designed to give high burst dmg...

But still - most problems with sload are:
1. It can proc on EVERY single type of dmg. Light/heavy attack, dot, poison, enchant, skill, other proc set (yep - other proc set that deal dmg can proc it too)... Even siege engines can proc it. It even does not have a "distance" condition... you can throw aoe dot like caltrops and it can still be procked...
2. Sload can stack with other sloads - yep that is true - if a whole group is using sload... rip.
3. It has way too much uptime. Sure - it has 10% chance to proc... But if you have a lot of dot then it can potentially proc infinitely - it lasts 6 seconds and the effect can occur every 6 seconds.
4. It forces every one to run Purge (that is extremly punishing for stamina builds).
5. It makes high risk - high reward builds almost inrelevant and rewards "brick" 50k + health builds - giving them way too much potential dmg. Why to spend attribute points on stamina & magicka to have higher dmg... Spend it all to health... Sload will do dmg for you...
6. Unlike shield breaker set (that was basically designed as a counter for shield stacking - instead of changing how dmg shield works lol ) sloads affects all builds. Even those that were easy kill-able & squishy in a first place.
7. And finally - it is only a "6 trait" crafted set. It is way too easy to get in comparison to what it can do. Compare it to other "9 trait" crafted sets and try not to laugh...
Already it feels like this set is given for free when you enter Cyrodiil.

Looking at those sload's 7 ticks I think the most broken thing about sload is how it's cooldown is calculated. Sload deals dmg every 1 second for 6 seconds. That is 6 ticks of dmg. On both screenshots we see that there are 7 ticks. That means once the first 6 seconds passed - there was no 6 seconds cooldown and sload proced immidietly again. So the cooldown is calculated when the effect starts (when the first tick occurs) and not when it ends. So... basically speaking... sload if not purged... has no cooldown...

TheRealSniker

Yes, Purge is a perfect counter to any build !! therefor everyone should run it on their staminas, on their sorcs, DKs basically everything!!! Oh defiled? fuuc*ing purge it! its not like defiles are overtuned! Oh marked? PURGE IT! I mean its not like mark is overtuned. Oh incapped?!?!? P U R G E I T!!!! I heard u can also use purge to do DPS in endgame content :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD ps buff stamblades.

If you actually wrote this post unironically then you have no clue how this game works

TheRealSniker

atleast what these posts show us is how good magplars actually are in the game

How to overcome anything vastly annoying in this game? Reroll magplar

pieratsos

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You know things are bad when we literally got to the point of discussing how we all have to wear specific sets to counter other specific sets.

Isn’t that the definition of balance? You have to make choices.

Like running shield breaker to combat a couple good shield stacking Sorcerers. You will do well against shields, but miserable against high resistance targets.

Choices. I like Sloads. Makes the yolo swag glass cannons think about their build, well in practice. They mostly come here to complain.

No that is not the definition of balance. That's the exact opposite. Balance and counters should be achieved through game play actions and choices you make in the fight. This will promote healthy gameplay and build diversity.

When we are all forced to run specific sets to counter other specific sets then you essentially remove player skill from the game and everyone can abuse everyone and there is no build diversity. PVP is essentially becoming rock paper scissors.

And it's funny how you mentioned shieldbreaker considering that it highlights that point. It was introduced to fix shieldstacking. Did it do that? Nope. Sorcs are still shieldstacking everyone still complains about it and Sorcs are also complainimg about shieldbreaker. The counter to shieldstacking became a rock paper scissors game with build tuning instead of Gameplay choices and everyone complains essentially promoting unhealthy gameplay.

GC0

Well, I don't believe that people that say sloads is fine have played enough small scale or even duels. Purging? Are you seriously saying this or is this a troll post? If it's s troll one it's amazing. Using purge to get rid of sload is probably one of the best ways to get yourself killed because it completely drains your magicka on all classes, except for magplar. Any other counter is not viable as it is really bad. Sload is literally doing the same as an another massive bleed on you. Is that balanced? No. Sload requires a strong nerf. NBs having cloak broken by it is probably the least of the issues this set causes. Any other class that has low mobility has to deal with sloads on top of a lot of pressure which they could not avoid by not being a stamnb. Now the best course of action is either make it not do oblivion damage, or keep the oblivion part but make oblivion get affected by battle spirit and of course make it not be able to stack. I can go out as far as saying that it is one of the reasons why PvP is so unenjoyable this patch. Counter to shields? If you really really need one you have one in CPs. Nerf the *** out of this set because it needs that, that's the only thing you can do.

Chilly-McFreeze

JackDaniell wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

VexingArcanist wrote: »

Yes please everyone play a meta build specifically to counter an overtuned set. Yes you either play the meta or you play against it.

So slot skills just to counter this ONE set.

GOGO.

lol, its just another DoT, and not a particularly strong one, big deal if it goes through shields, who cares? Is it so hard not to rely on your shield crutch to survive? I see this as no worse than Viper myself, or any number of other DoT proc sets...it is only more effective than those against shield spammers...against everyone else its the same.

1) Which other reliable ways of defense do magsorcs have? Streak isn't as good as some people make it out to be. Surge is mainly RNG. Dark Deal is a channel. Pets are suboptimal in open world.

2) I'd say NBs suffer more from this set than "shield spammers". But what do I know.

Mag sorcs will need a purge in pvp to counter a strong DOT build that is heavy on oblivion damage (eiher slot a skill or run a set). Even when fighting sloads you should still keep your damage shields up as a majority of damage is coming from other sources. If they only have sloads as thier singular DOT and are otherwise playing a burst spec you need no purge at all and should have no problems even on a sorc. Surge would easily outheal sloads alone.

As for nbs i think its a bug that sloads is breaking cloak. No other single target dot in the game acts like this and when they have in the past zenimax has normalized them to be supressed by cloak.

And no other dot ignores battlespirit, cp modifiers, shields, resistances and mitigation at the same time. So obivously the comparison to other single target dots is futile.

Take into consideration that ZOS knew about sloads breaking cloak but decided to rather adjust drop sets but not sloads, it seems rather intended.

And finally, when oblivion damage can't be mitigated by any means, why should cloak mitigate it via dot surpression?

I don't think NBs should get an edge here. Sload ignores each and every defense mechanic, and that includes cloak. Sorry, not sorry.

PureEnvelope35

Hell yeah I'll use a 7k mag ability on my stamDK! I can also use a mag set instead of those boring old useful stamina sets on my stamina warden to counter a single set!

HEBREWHAMMERRR

pieratsos wrote: »

You know things are bad when we literally got to the point of discussing how we all have to wear specific sets to counter other specific sets.

It’s called adapting. Just like people have always had to do for specific metas. I made a set of sloads last night...not impressed given all these tears. I’m guessing these people on the receiving end were probably viper Selene *** not used to this but I don’t think this is half as bad as that 1GCD massacre. (Which people had to...ready for this...use different sets to counter!!)

WeyounTM

After a lot of discussions on this topic this one has begun to wonder what behavioural sciences would make out of this sloads situation.

Sloads is shown on PTS -> (mostly) popular streamer and Min-Maxer are testing on PTS -> they (mostly) say it is overpowered because of reason X (maybe because it counters a particular playstyle those players use and like)

Sloads is not nerfed coming to live -> discussions on Forums flare up -> lots of people craft Sloads and use it -> Sloads is shown on every deathrecap known to mankind -> more rage because that is proof it is overpowered, right?

Or is it? I really wonder how much of it is reasonable data and unbiased science versus "human behaviour". Well, i cannot answer that but maybe someone here is well versed enough in the subject matter of behavioural sciences to enlighten me ;-)

The_Brosteen

Sloads should be taken out of the game entirely, I saw it on my death recap 3 deaths in a row. Clearly its OP because me dying obviously has nothing to do with my lack of ability. Sloads needs to go.

Also, nerf sorcs. This is now a nerf sorcs thread.

Zombbus

why you all moaning about sloads? if you stand on one place and neither moving nor do anything else then you say 'nerf sloads'. it hits so painful yes but it is not so big deal. lets remove all sets, and run naked with fists. lets remove mages and bows from a game, they all are imba. nerf bone pirate, so many stamina and recovery is imba. nerf camoran throne, its imba

Zombbus

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Sloads should be taken out of the game entirely, I saw it on my death recap 3 deaths in a row. Clearly its OP because me dying obviously has nothing to do with my lack of ability. Sloads needs to go.

Also, nerf sorcs. This is now a nerf sorcs thread.

yeah, also nerf templars and wardens. and nightblade sucker-punchers
nerf high elves and orcs, nerf redguards as well.
we need one race and one class for all the players. It is gonna be a real ballance.

Chilly-McFreeze

Zombbus wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Sloads should be taken out of the game entirely, I saw it on my death recap 3 deaths in a row. Clearly its OP because me dying obviously has nothing to do with my lack of ability. Sloads needs to go.

Also, nerf sorcs. This is now a nerf sorcs thread.

yeah, also nerf templars and wardens. and nightblade sucker-punchers
nerf high elves and orcs, nerf redguards as well.
we need one race and one class for all the players. It is gonna be a real ballance.

How about... nerf yourself?

Thogard

The only actual counter if you’re not a magplar is troll king + vigor, with some spare lingering health pots in the qbar in case you get more than one of these status effect spammers attacking you.

Also, I’d like to point out that comparing sloads to viper is a bit... uneven.. given the PvP parses of the two sets when used in conjunction. If viper could Crit, then maybe.. but it can’t, and sloads isn’t affected by the dot resistance CP.

laksikus

NTclaymore wrote: »

personally I been testing sload on my Mag DK. I dropped my sun set for it and I can tell you that its a massive sacrefice. Skoria hits for less. Burning embers hit for less n so that means less healing for me. So from what I can tell is Sload is good to deal with those that relies too much on their shields to counter me. Something I couldnt do much against before. It does however severely hurt my ability to fight other DKs. my NB doesnt run sload since im a ganker. I need burst sets. not tick damage. n a quick note. Yes. Skoria can proc on sload. so thats nice for mag DKs. the sun set gives an overall DPS increase and with the nature of DK skills an overall healing increase. I can see why sorcerers hate it but once it gets fixed that it breaks cloak no one else would really mind it too much.

If you say skoria Hits for less, its simple not true^^
Skoria does not Schale with spell damage

Juhasow

@JackDaniell in the game where there is no cooldown on abilities , same negative effects can stack , lot of negative effects can last 5 seconds or more, single abilities can apply 2-3 negative effects at once and can be easily reaplied , argument with purging negative effects is kinda not best idea to come with.