ZOS integrated spyware RedShell by mistake, deleted from live, still in PTS folder

Raraaku

This is inconsequential compared to the ways social media platforms and google/search engines collect, track, and sell your information.

You think Google paid a bunch of translators to create Google Translate? Lol, no. The bulk of it came from scanning emails. Terms of Use and such. South park had a great episode about it.

f047ys3v3n

Lovely, I'll need a damn add blocker to even game.

anamenobodyelsehas

The purpose of this software is to aid in guiding marketing spend, not in trying to figure out what to sell you in the crown store. They want to know which ads, with which advertising solutions, are the most effective at getting users to download and play ESO. That's the whole point of the digital fingerprint: you click on an ESO ad on FB, they store the fingerprint; you log into the game for the first time, and they generate a new fingerprint, then try to match it with the one from FB (or Google, or wherever). Then they look at how many matches they get for each place where they advertised, and see, for example, that advertising on Twitch gets them more new users per dollar than advertising on FB.

Stuff like that.

Marginis

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Any collection of personal data should have some sort of oversight. Even if it's just having knowledge of what's happening to you, even if it's not malicious, even if it's not clear how or to what extent it's being used. +1 OP for knowledge sharing.

From the FAQ from Red Shell website:

Does Red Shell track my personal information?

No. Red Shell tracks "device" based information about your computer. We do not collect any personal information about gamers. We don't collect names, emails, or addresses. Our service basically says "this computer clicked on a link from this YouTube video and the same computer played your game." We have no interest in tracking people, just computers for the purposes of attribution. All of the data we do collect is hashed for an additional layer of protection.

I don't even think this can be applied on Crown Store buys. They are probably using this to track how effective their ads from YT, FB, and etc are. Assuming what OP is telling is the true, since they provided 0 evidence to support his claim.

EDIT: There is a RedShell.dll in "Zenimax Online\The Elder Scrolls Online\game\client", in both Steam and non-Steam versions the game.

Their and my definitions of "personal information" are different. Stuff that I, personally, do, places where I, personally, go, games that I, personally, play - that is personal data. The definition they're going by is likely more a legal term, like "personally identifying information". The kind of information they collect, as far as we know by what they say, likely can't be used to personally identify us individually from others. However, as people have previously stated, your computer is still targeted, and you can still be targeted by ads and such. The targeting is what I worry about, not about being personally identified by my videogaming habits.

EDIT: Not to say any of this is the case, but it could be, and is as far as I'm aware likely to be the case. Either way -

Any kind of talk disregarding the need for transparency and not exercising due caution when it comes to data collection is dangerous, because in just one step any data collection can turn malicious. Not to say it will, just that it's important to be vigilant in these matters.

Read the link about hash function. They can't obtain personal information about you unless they try really hard. And even then, RedShell is quite common, they would've been exposed and closed the company by now if that was the case. As for transparency, you probably forgot about it or simply didn't read ZOS terms when they updated it. They have a whole section about Monitoring. You can check it out if you want, at section 6. Though I will admit it not clear that they are doing this but it fits the EULA.

There are plenty of other sources that will spy on you and obtain much more information from you than RedShell will. Many apps on your phone ask a lot of access like Local (meaning they can track where you go), your Contacts, Photos, etc. Facebook can even track what you're browsing when you have it open, or simply installed on your APP. FB even has access to your microphone, so they can potentially hear your conversations whenever they feel like it. We have to accept that we will have this kind of data collected from us, or we will go nuts thinking about x app or x game is spying on you.

Bolded parts of quote to show what specifically I'm referring to.

First bolded part: Like I said, it's not that anything malicious is going on, it's that it's good to keep an eye on things so nothing malicious does end up going on. Just in case.

Second bolded part: It's a scary world out there, which is why it's good to call stuff out wherever you see it. Some I'm sure don't use things like facebook or apps that ask for info, but they might play ESO so this is still pertinent to them, and even then, it's still good to keep an eye on data collection wherever it is - ESO, facebook, other apps, and whatever else collects data. Just don't disregard one just because others do it to. Same logic as disregarding suicide just because a whole bunch of people are doing it. If it's a mass suicide, actually, it would probably make more sense to focus MORE attention on it, now that I think about it.

I agree with you however for the most part. We shouldn't necessarily try to blow things out of proportion; we should stay critical, and only exercise reasonable caution, because let's face it - in today's world everything collects data - but make no mistake: that does NOT mean that we should accept that as a fact of life.

(I am using "accept" in a slightly different sense and context than you are, by the way, so I'm not trying to "call you out" or anything like that, just for the record. Just wanted to make that clear because, like I said, I agree with you for the most part.)

Elusiin

Marginis wrote: »

Any collection of personal data should have some sort of oversight. Even if it's just having knowledge of what's happening to you, even if it's not malicious, even if it's not clear how or to what extent it's being used. +1 OP for knowledge sharing.

Completely agree. There needs to be an oversight committee composed of elected officials(and I don't mean the FCC, they already have enough power) to make sure companies don't misuse or allow hackers to take our personal data. I really don't like this.

xRIVALENx

Changed the calls to RedShell to NOP and the game still runs perfectly fine, may have to make a patch for the client.

TequilaFire

karekiz wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Red Shell not available for consoles yet, but in development.
Safe from for a while. Wonder if it would fly with Sony and MS.

You think Microsoft and Sony aren't watching and gathering information for ad's already?

You can bet every time you access an app on your console it hits where, time of day, what you clicked on, and what you watched/bought.

That is why I said what I said, as Red Shell would be encroaching on MS and Sony's fishing grounds.
In all things Internet connected there is fierce competition for your shopping and usage habits.

Vaoh

How low can you go.

Every 6 months they do something new. It’s sad but kind of impressive....

Inarre

Are people seriously upset about this?

Do you guys work for moderately sized companies? Have you spent any time around marketing departments or business schools?

This kind of reporting is standard fare in any business and there are several business built solely on reporting this kind of data. You will be hard pressed to find any business worth their salt NOT using some sort of data that is identical or very similar to what is offered by Red Shell.

How can ZOS be successful if they have no idea what type of players are playing their game?

Vaoh

Inarre wrote: »

Are people seriously upset about this?

Do you guys work for moderately sized companies? Have you spent any time around marketing departments or business schools?

This kind of reporting is standard fare in any business and there are several business built solely on reporting this kind of data. You will be hard pressed to find any business worth their salt NOT using some sort of data that is identical or very similar to what is offered by Red Shell.

How can ZOS be successful if they have no idea what type of players are playing their game?

They seemed to have been fine without Red Shell for over 4 years. Why now?

Raraaku

In case y'all are curious, just go to the local drive where your steam client is located and search for redshell. I guarantee you will find at least 2 other large title games with multiplayer features that utilize it as well. For instance, in my library, Civ 6 and Total War also use Redshell.

More information == better advertisement targeting == either better use of funds dedicated to advertising department on which sites to target. Or another, albeit probably small, revenue stream can be added by selling customer information to various companies whose targeted demographic might be those that play video games.

Marabornwingrion

What is this red shell, how it works?
Where you got information that it was added to game?

Elsonso

I block Redshell before it hits the internet. (This does cause some games to crash, because apparently they can say "don't run if I can't phone home". There are some games I simply won't play for that reason.)

I don't give that information for free, but if ZOS wants to contact me, we might be able to come to an arrangement.

Merlin13KAGL

@Vaoh it's probably in tandem with the new Monetization job posting. It's basically used to 'cross reference' marketing stuff.

Think of it this way:

Bob Jones buys a pizza warmer. When he registers it online, an encrypted code is created and the PizzaLux 3000 is then associated with that code and stored on server in the cloud. The encrypted code is based on Bob's address, color of his house, the kind of dog he has, and the size of his yard.

Later, when Bob browses Youtube/Twitter/Facebook and clicks on an ad for pizza cutters or deluxe pepporoni, a cookie on the website creates a similar encrypted code and associates the pizza cutter and pepperoni type Bob was looking at to the same code.

The manufacturer, through (RedShell) gets a notice that the two different things were associated with the encrypted code.

At no point does the company know Bob's address, the car he drives, the name of his dog, or the color of his house. They don't even have to know Bob's name, but through the above, the company can determine that those that like the Lux3000 might also be looking for cutters and custom pizza toppings.

Best analogy i got...

TL;DR;WTF are you talking about?

You can all take off your foil hats. All is well.

ezeepeezee

User data aggregation is commonplace. Relax.

Merlin13KAGL

Basically they're trying to track what kind of content you're drawn to and what kind of marketing gets your attention, all without ever actually having to have your specific information. Helps then adjust content, make new product (crowns, dlc's), and hopefully make a buck in the process.

It's actually quite clever.

olivesforge

People terrified of losing their privacy take to a forum to worry about it, in an act of sheer and utter lunacy. Meanwhile, the forum takes that information and updates your profiles with multiple partners. Great own goal.

ZOS is adopting an industry standard, and that's good - it beats them going alone. But the only way to maintain a measure of anonymity in the modern age is by flooding the zone, not by trying to hide.

Amazon thinks I buy a toilet seat on a weekly basis, and Facebook thinks that I'm an African American yachting club member. That's how you hide stuff today.

WaltherCarraway

this thread should be on 4chan where kids will feed the thread with conspiracy theories and argument contains no less than 3 N words.

Radinyn

You are living in the modern world, literally every aspect of your life was fully spied by now.

Vaoh

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Vaoh it's probably in tandem with the new Monetization job posting. It's basically used to 'cross reference' marketing stuff.

Think of it this way:

Bob Jones buys a pizza warmer. When he registers it online, an encrypted code is created and the PizzaLux 3000 is then associated with that code and stored on server in the cloud. The encrypted code is based on Bob's address, color of his house, the kind of dog he has, and the size of his yard.

Later, when Bob browses Youtube/Twitter/Facebook and clicks on an ad for pizza cutters or deluxe pepporoni, a cookie on the website creates a similar encrypted code and associates the pizza cutter and pepperoni type Bob was looking at to the same code.

The manufacturer, through (RedShell) gets a notice that the two different things were associated with the encrypted code.

At no point does the company know Bob's address, the car he drives, the name of his dog, or the color of his house. They don't even have to know Bob's name, but through the above, the company can determine that those that like the Lux3000 might also be looking for cutters and custom pizza toppings.

Best analogy i got...

TL;DR;WTF are you talking about?

You can all take off your foil hats. All is well.

That was a beautiful comparison lol.

LumbermillOverlord

Astrid_V wrote: »

What is this red shell, how it works?
Where you got information that it was added to game?

why so many questions that already answered. lol?

Yolokin_Swagonborn

So instead of spending money on a good anticheat software, they spend money on this crap. Marketing is pure evil. Always has been.

If ZOS fired all the marketers on the payroll and actually hired programmers and QA this game would be amazing.

Elsonso

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

So instead of spending money on a good anticheat software, they spend money on this crap. Marketing is pure evil. Always has been.

If ZOS fired all the marketers on the payroll and actually hired programmers and QA this game would be amazing.

It's not that so much. It's what the executives approve. When developers go to executives and say "we should do something impressive, like Spell Crafting" the executives have no idea what they are talking about. When the marketing people come up and say "we should collect user information so we can make more money" the execs hear "money" and approve it immediately. The only reason we got "jewelry crafting" was that the executives misread the email and thought they were talking real jewelry.

umagon

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was just part of their soon™ to be free to play model monetization efforts. User data sells and is an easy way to make money from players who do not buy anything in the cash shop. It usually goes like this: free to play = more players = more aggregate data = more profit from selling that data.

Lake

Hopefully they also add spyware to the ESO client to get rid of bots like GW2 just did.

LumbermillOverlord

spyware against bots will be good

LadyDestiny

TequilaFire wrote: »

Red Shell not available for consoles yet, but in development.
Safe from for a while. Wonder if it would fly with Sony and MS.

Yeah was thinking the same thing about Sony and MS. At least we only get the small crown store box off to the side when logging in on console. I feel for pc as I absolutely detest stupid ads like this. As if I don't know how to click on the crown store tab when I feel like buying something. You know Zos makes a s**t ton of money off the store. Why was this necessary? Maybe the power of suggestion to lure in impulse buyers......go figure. Lol

RinaldoGandolphi

This is a big deal, far more then people realize.

I am not going to get into technical details, simply because most won't understand. What I will say is they are using a .DLL file to harvest hardware identifying information from your computer so they can track said information regardless if you delete cookies, browser cache, etc. You can get away from Facebook, Google, etc tracking...there is no getting away from this.

I have been here since the beginning, but this is the end of the road for me. This is simply unacceptable, and I really don't care what their EULA says. I consented to their Eula change under the impression they were going to use monitoring for Anti-cheat purposes(Steam VAC, Punkbuster, etc)....I didn't sign up to be tracked and followed for marketing purposes so they can sell more crown store content. This is akin to installing Spyware on my machine, and its a huge betrayal. I'll never buy another game again that Zenimax Online Studios has any part in publishing or selling.

this right here, is the beginning of the end...many of you just don't know it yet...things like this have a colorful history of killing games off, give it time. You won;t believe me now, but you will later down the road.

Sad too, I enjoyed my time here, I still enjoy the game even today, but there is no way I will continue to play under these pretenses.

So I guess this is the end of the road for me, maybe i'll come back if they remove this nonsense, if not, then its been fun. Say what you want about Google but they at least give you the ability to opt-out of this nonsense. You can only push things so far, and they have pushed me to the point I won't be pushed any further. Everyone has their own breaking points, and each persons point isn't always the same.

Take it easy folks, its been a fun ride.

Cpt_Teemo

Did ZoS really just go this far as to spy on its loyal playerbase? wow, uninstall again eff me.

Shad0wfire99

Master race, indeed.