Clockwork Sload - No stealth Mageblade. Meta Harder, Max Cheese.

Takes-No-Prisoner

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"

I wouldn't say we're forgetting. A vast majority of players typically know this intuitively, yet don't express the notion of it like you have. In fact, I rarely see people discuss this concept on these forums, as it is pretty important part to understand.

To paint a broad stroke here, the concept applies to a lot of versus games, not just ESO. Things like Touch-of-Death combos in Marvel versus Capcom 3 are some of the very definitions of 'Don't get hit!'

leepalmer95

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"
If you have a cancer build & I have burst, but you can't hit me; I win.
Stealth, dodge, meridia's blessing can all counter this cancer.

I prefer being good with stealth, I also prefer to debuff you with riposte & have 20k unbuffed resistances.
Typically cancer isn't killing players with 1 move/ability/proc, it's the combination; so if I debuff you with riposte; GG

It's impossible to 'not get hit' in a game where the only way to avoid getting hit is dodge rolling and that has negative stacking effects. Even then half the things in this game go through it.

Sloads cannot be mitigated, it also stops stealth. You are not going to burst 30k and because you wont burst it troll king + other hots will outheal you.

Also a big part of this part if the fact when you do hit me you put yourself at a great disadvantage because of duroks. You cannot counter completely.

kaithuzar

Wasn't there another post on this forum of crispen hitting some with a 32k assassins will?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/419374/assassins-will-exploit/p2

Takes-No-Prisoner

kaithuzar wrote: »

Wasn't there another post on this forum of crispen hitting some with a 32k assassins will?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/419374/assassins-will-exploit/p2

Oh my........................

Metemsycosis

I agree it is impossible to never ever get hit but a LA magnb should try exactly that. right now I am amazed at the ability of a light armor magicka nightblade to move as she wishes. Shade, cloak, purge, path/cripple+concealed speed, high stam and stam recovery for blocking or rolling. This is to me the most fun a magicka nightblade can be. Unfettered and freakishly misdirecting: hard to trace much less damage and then having bow/tether/concealed/skoria all dropping within a second of each other is just too good.

Looking at lexxys build tho it would be hard to take down, point blank it won't get bursted without everything working out perfectly or if he gets badly zerged. I just don't find his build to be offensive enough to work around existing counters (like purge and maim alone would cripple the offensive scheme). Like even if I am defiled but I am myself not taking damage defile isn't nearly as valuable.

Lexxypwns

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"
If you have a cancer build & I have burst, but you can't hit me; I win.
Stealth, dodge, meridia's blessing can all counter this cancer.

I prefer being good with stealth, I also prefer to debuff you with riposte & have 20k unbuffed resistances.
Typically cancer isn't killing players with 1 move/ability/proc, it's the combination; so if I debuff you with riposte; GG

Stealth play styles and light armor are just fine and still viable but no stealth builds just have more of everything. You need less sustain, get an extra skill slot, and have your primary defense hard countered far less often. If you build for no-stealth you’re viable in a wider array of situations. I don’t have to think twice about engaging a group with a Stam Sorc or Nightblade because they can’t hard counter me. There’s just so many situations where some rando scrub marks you or spams gap closer with hurricane up and ruins your 1vX despite the fact that they’re bringing nothing else to the fight. I mean, your setup probably has 12k more max magika and about the same spell damage right? About 9500 effective spellpower, maybe 10k? This one is ~8000. If my burst hits 20k on squishier you’re probably at what, 24k?

@leepalmer95 has it right, you can’t burst 30k health without multiple people ulti dumping and animation canceling a healing ward with a dodge roll then using shade is enough to from execute to 20k+ health. I mean, we’ve got 4K+ HPS and 3600 health regen, add that in with a healing ward(2k heal) and the fight is basically reset. Even with defile it’s still ~3k health regained every second.

Edit: Also, the higher health pool means you enter execute around 7500 health, which is actually enough to survive endless fury or impale hitting your health pool usually

technohic

At some point if this meta goes unchecked and more people start adopting it, we all will be standing around letting procs work while keeping ourselves ahead of the slow pressure on our high health, hot, and recovery builds. Will be a lot more of Zerg down or just walk away

kaithuzar

Lexxypwns wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"
If you have a cancer build & I have burst, but you can't hit me; I win.
Stealth, dodge, meridia's blessing can all counter this cancer.

I prefer being good with stealth, I also prefer to debuff you with riposte & have 20k unbuffed resistances.
Typically cancer isn't killing players with 1 move/ability/proc, it's the combination; so if I debuff you with riposte; GG

Stealth play styles and light armor are just fine and still viable but no stealth builds just have more of everything. You need less sustain, get an extra skill slot, and have your primary defense hard countered far less often. If you build for no-stealth you’re viable in a wider array of situations. I don’t have to think twice about engaging a group with a Stam Sorc or Nightblade because they can’t hard counter me. There’s just so many situations where some rando scrub marks you or spams gap closer with hurricane up and ruins your 1vX despite the fact that they’re bringing nothing else to the fight. I mean, your setup probably has 12k more max magika and about the same spell damage right? About 9500 effective spellpower, maybe 10k? This one is ~8000. If my burst hits 20k on squishier you’re probably at what, 24k?

@leepalmer95 has it right, you can’t burst 30k health without multiple people ulti dumping and animation canceling a healing ward with a dodge roll then using shade is enough to from execute to 20k+ health. I mean, we’ve got 4K+ HPS and 3600 health regen, add that in with a healing ward(2k heal) and the fight is basically reset. Even with defile it’s still ~3k health regained every second.

Edit: Also, the higher health pool means you enter execute around 7500 health, which is actually enough to survive endless fury or impale hitting your health pool usually

I'm not saying your build is weak by any means dude. In fact it may be a meta build considering how easy it is to be successful, especially for players coming from another class to nb.

I'm just saying there are viable alternatives for players wanting a higher skill cap.
As players start to learn their own play style & adapt to nb strengths & weaknesses, they find out other methods of being successful that will ultimately last through the various patch-to-patch nerfs & buffs.

I prefer to build like this as it's less costly between patches & allows you to get better at the class rather than some temporary niche which may not exist in a few months.

I guess I'm just of the opinion that if you're going into cyrodiil with less than the ability to penetrate 12k of your opponents resistances then you're either doing it wrong or just on the monthly cheese. I understand why you're riding the cheese wave, it's been done to us plenty. I'm just more of a fan of legit stuff.

/endRant

Lexxypwns

kaithuzar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"
If you have a cancer build & I have burst, but you can't hit me; I win.
Stealth, dodge, meridia's blessing can all counter this cancer.

I prefer being good with stealth, I also prefer to debuff you with riposte & have 20k unbuffed resistances.
Typically cancer isn't killing players with 1 move/ability/proc, it's the combination; so if I debuff you with riposte; GG

Stealth play styles and light armor are just fine and still viable but no stealth builds just have more of everything. You need less sustain, get an extra skill slot, and have your primary defense hard countered far less often. If you build for no-stealth you’re viable in a wider array of situations. I don’t have to think twice about engaging a group with a Stam Sorc or Nightblade because they can’t hard counter me. There’s just so many situations where some rando scrub marks you or spams gap closer with hurricane up and ruins your 1vX despite the fact that they’re bringing nothing else to the fight. I mean, your setup probably has 12k more max magika and about the same spell damage right? About 9500 effective spellpower, maybe 10k? This one is ~8000. If my burst hits 20k on squishier you’re probably at what, 24k?

@leepalmer95 has it right, you can’t burst 30k health without multiple people ulti dumping and animation canceling a healing ward with a dodge roll then using shade is enough to from execute to 20k+ health. I mean, we’ve got 4K+ HPS and 3600 health regen, add that in with a healing ward(2k heal) and the fight is basically reset. Even with defile it’s still ~3k health regained every second.

Edit: Also, the higher health pool means you enter execute around 7500 health, which is actually enough to survive endless fury or impale hitting your health pool usually

I'm not saying your build is weak by any means dude. In fact it may be a meta build considering how easy it is to be successful, especially for players coming from another class to nb.

I'm just saying there are viable alternatives for players wanting a higher skill cap.
As players start to learn their own play style & adapt to nb strengths & weaknesses, they find out other methods of being successful that will ultimately last through the various patch-to-patch nerfs & buffs.

I prefer to build like this as it's less costly between patches & allows you to get better at the class rather than some temporary niche which may not exist in a few months.

I guess I'm just of the opinion that if you're going into cyrodiil with less than the ability to penetrate 12k of your opponents resistances then you're either doing it wrong or just on the monthly cheese. I understand why you're riding the cheese wave, it's been done to us plenty. I'm just more of a fan of legit stuff.

/endRant

I mean, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I don’t think the skill ceiling is higher on a build with stealth. It’s not even in the same realm of skill required because when cloak works it becomes the strongest mechanic in the game and when it doesn’t then you’re back to playing on the level I am. Your worst case scenario is my constant gameplay

If someone is not running a direct cloak counter then cloak is by far the most cheesy mechanic that has ever existed in this game. I’ve been playing mageblade since 1.6 and playing no stealth is infinitely harder than playing with stealth, positioning is far more important, you have to be more cognizant of your health, it’s hrder to set your burst up, and forget about being able to consistently disengage fights.

Edit: 2(?) years of writs covers my upgrade mats and I made something like 5m gold since patch dropped so cost isn’t really a consideration.

I also think the fact that my build can engage fights you can’t even begin to engage in a light armor burst spec gives me more opportunities to develop my skill in high pressure situations.

thankyourat

kaithuzar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"
If you have a cancer build & I have burst, but you can't hit me; I win.
Stealth, dodge, meridia's blessing can all counter this cancer.

I prefer being good with stealth, I also prefer to debuff you with riposte & have 20k unbuffed resistances.
Typically cancer isn't killing players with 1 move/ability/proc, it's the combination; so if I debuff you with riposte; GG

Stealth play styles and light armor are just fine and still viable but no stealth builds just have more of everything. You need less sustain, get an extra skill slot, and have your primary defense hard countered far less often. If you build for no-stealth you’re viable in a wider array of situations. I don’t have to think twice about engaging a group with a Stam Sorc or Nightblade because they can’t hard counter me. There’s just so many situations where some rando scrub marks you or spams gap closer with hurricane up and ruins your 1vX despite the fact that they’re bringing nothing else to the fight. I mean, your setup probably has 12k more max magika and about the same spell damage right? About 9500 effective spellpower, maybe 10k? This one is ~8000. If my burst hits 20k on squishier you’re probably at what, 24k?

@leepalmer95 has it right, you can’t burst 30k health without multiple people ulti dumping and animation canceling a healing ward with a dodge roll then using shade is enough to from execute to 20k+ health. I mean, we’ve got 4K+ HPS and 3600 health regen, add that in with a healing ward(2k heal) and the fight is basically reset. Even with defile it’s still ~3k health regained every second.

Edit: Also, the higher health pool means you enter execute around 7500 health, which is actually enough to survive endless fury or impale hitting your health pool usually

I'm not saying your build is weak by any means dude. In fact it may be a meta build considering how easy it is to be successful, especially for players coming from another class to nb.

I'm just saying there are viable alternatives for players wanting a higher skill cap.
As players start to learn their own play style & adapt to nb strengths & weaknesses, they find out other methods of being successful that will ultimately last through the various patch-to-patch nerfs & buffs.

I prefer to build like this as it's less costly between patches & allows you to get better at the class rather than some temporary niche which may not exist in a few months.

I guess I'm just of the opinion that if you're going into cyrodiil with less than the ability to penetrate 12k of your opponents resistances then you're either doing it wrong or just on the monthly cheese. I understand why you're riding the cheese wave, it's been done to us plenty. I'm just more of a fan of legit stuff.

/endRant

The thing is a pure light armor magblade with only Cloak and shade as a form of defensive is too easily countered. There is no way to have enough fight control while outnumbered to make up for the builds lack of healing and resistances combined with all the natural counters to the class. Lexy build is just a standard build of heavy armor+ damage set+ monster set he's just using proc sets instead of max stat sets. My build last patch for instance was axiom/riposte and I started with blood spawn and ended up switching to troll king. And this patch I'm running heavy seducer/spinners/troll king. I play light armor from time to time as well and I do believe it's viable especially 1v1, but there are too many variables that can make light armor simply unplayable at times. Also nothing is saying you can't have high damage and utilize strengths inherent to the nightblade class while still wearing heavy armor and being tanky. Like I play with Cloak, shade, about 5k worth of hots without troll king proc as well as my assassin's will has a 22k tooltip and 40k Magicka all while wearing heavy armor. Abilities have advanced far too much to simply not get hit. You now have to build to be able to take a hit or two

Lexxypwns

thankyourat wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"
If you have a cancer build & I have burst, but you can't hit me; I win.
Stealth, dodge, meridia's blessing can all counter this cancer.

I prefer being good with stealth, I also prefer to debuff you with riposte & have 20k unbuffed resistances.
Typically cancer isn't killing players with 1 move/ability/proc, it's the combination; so if I debuff you with riposte; GG

Stealth play styles and light armor are just fine and still viable but no stealth builds just have more of everything. You need less sustain, get an extra skill slot, and have your primary defense hard countered far less often. If you build for no-stealth you’re viable in a wider array of situations. I don’t have to think twice about engaging a group with a Stam Sorc or Nightblade because they can’t hard counter me. There’s just so many situations where some rando scrub marks you or spams gap closer with hurricane up and ruins your 1vX despite the fact that they’re bringing nothing else to the fight. I mean, your setup probably has 12k more max magika and about the same spell damage right? About 9500 effective spellpower, maybe 10k? This one is ~8000. If my burst hits 20k on squishier you’re probably at what, 24k?

@leepalmer95 has it right, you can’t burst 30k health without multiple people ulti dumping and animation canceling a healing ward with a dodge roll then using shade is enough to from execute to 20k+ health. I mean, we’ve got 4K+ HPS and 3600 health regen, add that in with a healing ward(2k heal) and the fight is basically reset. Even with defile it’s still ~3k health regained every second.

Edit: Also, the higher health pool means you enter execute around 7500 health, which is actually enough to survive endless fury or impale hitting your health pool usually

I'm not saying your build is weak by any means dude. In fact it may be a meta build considering how easy it is to be successful, especially for players coming from another class to nb.

I'm just saying there are viable alternatives for players wanting a higher skill cap.
As players start to learn their own play style & adapt to nb strengths & weaknesses, they find out other methods of being successful that will ultimately last through the various patch-to-patch nerfs & buffs.

I prefer to build like this as it's less costly between patches & allows you to get better at the class rather than some temporary niche which may not exist in a few months.

I guess I'm just of the opinion that if you're going into cyrodiil with less than the ability to penetrate 12k of your opponents resistances then you're either doing it wrong or just on the monthly cheese. I understand why you're riding the cheese wave, it's been done to us plenty. I'm just more of a fan of legit stuff.

/endRant

The thing is a pure light armor magblade with only Cloak and shade as a form of defensive is too easily countered. There is no way to have enough fight control while outnumbered to make up for the builds lack of healing and resistances combined with all the natural counters to the class. Lexy build is just a standard build of heavy armor+ damage set+ monster set he's just using proc sets instead of max stat sets. My build last patch for instance was axiom/riposte and I started with blood spawn and ended up switching to troll king. And this patch I'm running heavy seducer/spinners/troll king. I play light armor from time to time as well and I do believe it's viable especially 1v1, but there are too many variables that can make light armor simply unplayable at times. Also nothing is saying you can't have high damage and utilize strengths inherent to the nightblade class while still wearing heavy armor and being tanky. Like I play with Cloak, shade, about 5k worth of hots without troll king proc as well as my assassin's will has a 22k tooltip and 40k Magicka all while wearing heavy armor. Abilities have advanced far too much to simply not get hit. You now have to build to be able to take a hit or two

I feel very strongly that increasing the number of situations you’re viable in allows you to push your skill much more than cherry picking easy fights with a burst build.

It’s not as though I’m not kiting, I use shade and cripple and fear to kite, I just don’t have a mechanic that is either Totally OP and completely dominates the fight, hard countered, or somewhere in between.

Metemsycosis

Exactly. Heavy armor helps you defend even if you're ccd or whatever , whereas if you make a misstep in light you're basically fallen over. I think that's why LA is a bit more challenging this patch, but so so fun.

IZZEFlameLash

Lexxypwns wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

This build really do make me feel glad that I decided not to play this game 2 days after the release of Summerset. The moment I saw Sload's tick on me during those 2 days I foresaw it will be used en masse with defile with Zaan. Man. This is the definition of cancer build.

Thanks man! I worked hard figuring out the perfect combos and synergy to pair with the outstanding mageblade tool kit.

I agree this meta is awful, but the best way to counter it that’s I’ve found is to embrace the meta and enjoy what comes with it.

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

In messing around with this build yesterday(despite my other posts!) this build has really good synergy going with Time Freeze.

I wanted to point out something about Time Freeze that I think is unique, not just to this build but to other builds/classes.

So the idea behind the skill is to stop enemies in place. But there are two interesting factors to this skill I want to zoom in on;

1. When cast, the count down 4 seconds applies a very handy snare - this snare in theory works similar to a Control Deck in Magic the Gathering. You manipulate the enemies thinking/placement by creating a situation they have to judge properly(also called a Mix-up or 50/50 situation). Thus, limiting their options and giving you more. This part of the ability makes it really fascinating when you start discussing situations like Resource Towers, choke points and even rocks/trees/things to LoS(I have gotten stunned from this ability through trees and rocks). And is making me re-think putting this on different classes to see what other synergies are out there.

2. If the enemy does not respect the snare the count down ends and they get stunned, opening up combos and shifting momentum to favor the caster of the ability if the opponent does CC break.

Time freeze is amazing. It is bar none the best CC in the game by miles. I’m still not consistent enough in my personal ability to get it to function how I need it to though and that’s the primary reason I’m still using fear when solo. Time stop is my choice I n a small group where there are cross heals and stuff making it easier to survive pressure and will likely fully replace fear eventually.

I see a lot of potential with Time Stop and Shadow Image as a way to further control hectic fights, but I’m just so used to using the instant CC of fear to relieve pressure that I haven’t fully swapped over. It’s a game changer no doubt and you’re really making me want to master it.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

@Lexxypwns

So i haven't played this game for months, came back yesterday.

Judging by the state of this forum i'm taking it that it isn't a good patch?


Another proc meta? Really... There has been two of these are the dev just that incompetent that they are incapable of introducing new sets that arent proc dmg sets?

The Defile meta is nothing new, it has existed for a while.

The “proc meta” is generally overstated, in the sense that we aren’t out there 1 banging people with Viper+Veli and no counterplay. However, Sload’s is insane, absolutely bonkers strong and has made me reconsider how I build every class.

The thing with Sload is that it can’t be mitigated and it’s ever present pressure that can be dangerous, particularly when combined with a Defile or Bleeds. @Thogard was the first person I saw suggesting that higher health and increased healing were the way to “mitigate” Sloads. Basically you just want to increase the time you have to deal with an opponent while not compromising your ability to burn him down. Kiting and fight control are more important than ever and damage is trough the roof. The margins for surviving with a 20-22k health build are too thin for my liking since 2 sload procs means 45% of your health in 6 seconds with no other incoming damage. The other popular “counter” is Troll King, which effectively increases your passive health sustain by enough to ignore a sload prox, if you can get enough health and off-stat to support running Clockwork Citrus or Artaeum Broth that extra health regen is really excellent this patch.

If possible you want to combine at least 2, ideally 3+ of the following when building for survivability in this meta: 30k+ health, 2k+ health regen, damage shields, stacked healing bonuses, forced crit heals, ritual/purge, snare immunity, speed. But the issues you then run into is that you often have then compromised your damage and the best way to recoup that killing power is by adhering to the meta and running procs, bleeds, defiles.

Unfortunately, you are right. Which is why I am glad to see such proliferated, active spread of these builds.

Lexxypwns

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Exactly. Heavy armor helps you defend even if you're ccd or whatever , whereas if you make a misstep in light you're basically fallen over. I think that's why LA is a bit more challenging this patch, but so so fun.

Dying means you’re more skilled?

What’s more challenging, fighting 2-5 in light or 6+ in heavy?

Metemsycosis

It's more of a challenge to avoid death in light armor yes.

thankyourat

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"
If you have a cancer build & I have burst, but you can't hit me; I win.
Stealth, dodge, meridia's blessing can all counter this cancer.

I prefer being good with stealth, I also prefer to debuff you with riposte & have 20k unbuffed resistances.
Typically cancer isn't killing players with 1 move/ability/proc, it's the combination; so if I debuff you with riposte; GG

Stealth play styles and light armor are just fine and still viable but no stealth builds just have more of everything. You need less sustain, get an extra skill slot, and have your primary defense hard countered far less often. If you build for no-stealth you’re viable in a wider array of situations. I don’t have to think twice about engaging a group with a Stam Sorc or Nightblade because they can’t hard counter me. There’s just so many situations where some rando scrub marks you or spams gap closer with hurricane up and ruins your 1vX despite the fact that they’re bringing nothing else to the fight. I mean, your setup probably has 12k more max magika and about the same spell damage right? About 9500 effective spellpower, maybe 10k? This one is ~8000. If my burst hits 20k on squishier you’re probably at what, 24k?

@leepalmer95 has it right, you can’t burst 30k health without multiple people ulti dumping and animation canceling a healing ward with a dodge roll then using shade is enough to from execute to 20k+ health. I mean, we’ve got 4K+ HPS and 3600 health regen, add that in with a healing ward(2k heal) and the fight is basically reset. Even with defile it’s still ~3k health regained every second.

Edit: Also, the higher health pool means you enter execute around 7500 health, which is actually enough to survive endless fury or impale hitting your health pool usually

I'm not saying your build is weak by any means dude. In fact it may be a meta build considering how easy it is to be successful, especially for players coming from another class to nb.

I'm just saying there are viable alternatives for players wanting a higher skill cap.
As players start to learn their own play style & adapt to nb strengths & weaknesses, they find out other methods of being successful that will ultimately last through the various patch-to-patch nerfs & buffs.

I prefer to build like this as it's less costly between patches & allows you to get better at the class rather than some temporary niche which may not exist in a few months.

I guess I'm just of the opinion that if you're going into cyrodiil with less than the ability to penetrate 12k of your opponents resistances then you're either doing it wrong or just on the monthly cheese. I understand why you're riding the cheese wave, it's been done to us plenty. I'm just more of a fan of legit stuff.

/endRant

The thing is a pure light armor magblade with only Cloak and shade as a form of defensive is too easily countered. There is no way to have enough fight control while outnumbered to make up for the builds lack of healing and resistances combined with all the natural counters to the class. Lexy build is just a standard build of heavy armor+ damage set+ monster set he's just using proc sets instead of max stat sets. My build last patch for instance was axiom/riposte and I started with blood spawn and ended up switching to troll king. And this patch I'm running heavy seducer/spinners/troll king. I play light armor from time to time as well and I do believe it's viable especially 1v1, but there are too many variables that can make light armor simply unplayable at times. Also nothing is saying you can't have high damage and utilize strengths inherent to the nightblade class while still wearing heavy armor and being tanky. Like I play with Cloak, shade, about 5k worth of hots without troll king proc as well as my assassin's will has a 22k tooltip and 40k Magicka all while wearing heavy armor. Abilities have advanced far too much to simply not get hit. You now have to build to be able to take a hit or two

I feel very strongly that increasing the number of situations you’re viable in allows you to push your skill much more than cherry picking easy fights with a burst build.

It’s not as though I’m not kiting, I use shade and cripple and fear to kite, I just don’t have a mechanic that is either Totally OP and completely dominates the fight, hard countered, or somewhere in between.

I fully agree our builds basically follow the same template. I basically build my open world build the same way you explained your build. I just don't like proc set gameplay personally but I have nothing against the sets my self especially if you play solo I believe you can use whatever you want. I was replying to @kaithuzar trying to explain that you can be both tanky and deal a decent amount of damage and still keep sort of a light armor style of play. I personally believe there is no one way to play magblade as long as you build enough survivability to fight outside of cloak. Too many times I'll play light armor and get marked by some random nightblade who does nothing but try to keep me out of stealth.

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Exactly. Heavy armor helps you defend even if you're ccd or whatever , whereas if you make a misstep in light you're basically fallen over. I think that's why LA is a bit more challenging this patch, but so so fun.

That's what I like about heavy. mistakes on magblade are already so amplified when trying to 1vX that with light armor you will lose some 1vXes simply because you are a light armor magblade and it wouldn't matter your skill level, I've never really liked that. I think that's the main reason why I prefer heavy. I like to give myself a chance in more fights.

Lexxypwns

Metemsycosis wrote: »

It's more of a challenge to avoid death in light armor yes.

You’re avoiding my question. It’s a given that heavy armor allows you to survive against a larger number of attackers.

Is it more impressive to 1v3 in light or 1v6 in heavy?

I know a 1v3 in light is either a cake walk because nobody is countering cloak, lucky that you pulled nobody good, or dead

Metemsycosis

I only avoided the question because it makes no sense to me. I'll answer my best. If you're in LA and attacked by 6 and win I am a little more impressed than if you did the same in heavy.

Waffennacht

Pffff do you even BG bro?

Metemsycosis

All I do lately.

kaithuzar

Because I respond via phone trying to setup my build on a website is too much of a hassle. Maybe I'll do that at my computer but until then I'll just try & breakdown my thought.

Shade - its VASTLY more viable on a destro/resto nb than a 2h/resto nb
Reasoning: on 2h you MUST get in close & already have the ability to disengage via forward momentum
On ranged(destro) you DON'T have to be in close & preferably avoid it at all cost using shade to kite.

I'm generally explaining from a 1v1 open world stance because in order to win you should try to break each situation into a 1v1, ie... cc the other guy so you can kill your target without being interrupted. Ie.. cc the healer so you can 2-3 shot the nb

All armor is impen & tri glyphs on head & chest

My build:
Head: heavy chudan
Shoulder: light pirate skeleton
Chest: heavy innate axiom
Legs: light innate axiom
Gloves: light riposte
Sash: light riposte
Boots: light axiom
Neck: infused reduce cost enchant willpower
Ring1: infused recovery willpower, maybe use sp dmg if using siphoning attacks
Ring2: infused sp dmg riposte
Weapon main:sharp innate axiom 2h
Weapon off: defending resto riposte

Skiill main:
Sap, assassin's will, forward momentum, concealed, mage light, incap

Offbar:
Shadowy disguise, lotus fan, fear, healing ward, mage light(flex spot, maybe siphoning attacks), lights champion

Lover mundus, citrus fillet food

This build fully buffed has approx 3k sp dmg (2k unbuffed) with ~15k pen(14.5k), unbuffed approx 20k resistances ~ 24k buffed. ~1.8k recovery & ~2k with resource buff or you can use siphoning, ~50% crit & almost 60 points into cp tree inc crit dmg

No poisons, just inc sp & weapon enchant front & magic recovery back (poisons could be used on back but I'm not running the right cp for that build.
Oh & stop putting tons into elemental expert, get a clue, master at arms scales better up to ~72 points when ele expert you only need around ~10-20
Also if you're not using at least 2 dots & skoria don't bother with thaumaturge ie... the dot cp tree.

Sure my max magic is low, 36k main 34k back, health 23k main, 24k back, but I can hit & take hits & if you're playing properly by keeping a resource buff on you or using either weakness to elements or siphoning attacks, your sustain should be on point.

Sure you can swap monster helms but tanking a Zerg full of bads & escaping, or killing them is hilarious. I honestly haven't tried troll king so it could be good?

& shout out to knightmxre on console for his aterna build, his cp needs work & bar setup needs work, but after constantly thinking I decided he was right on using 2 willpower on jewelry instead of the way I was doing it trying to run 3 on front bar & having a single dead spot on back. It enabled me to have both bars benefit & use a 2nd monster piece.

Heavy passive are good if you're an Argonian destro/resto using shade
Anything else just seems less efficient to me. I can make a good heavy build, even run axiom & riposte & swap out willpower & monster for 4 flame blossom to add extra pen, but the passives just aren't worth it to me. I can just run 1pirate, 1chudan & have basically the same resistances

glhf

Lexxypwns

kaithuzar wrote: »

Because I respond via phone trying to setup my build on a website is too much of a hassle. Maybe I'll do that at my computer but until then I'll just try & breakdown my thought.

Shade - its VASTLY more viable on a destro/resto nb than a 2h/resto nb
Reasoning: on 2h you MUST get in close & already have the ability to disengage via forward momentum
On ranged(destro) you DON'T have to be in close & preferably avoid it at all cost using shade to kite.

I'm generally explaining from a 1v1 open world stance because in order to win you should try to break each situation into a 1v1, ie... cc the other guy so you can kill your target without being interrupted. Ie.. cc the healer so you can 2-3 shot the nb

All armor is impen & tri glyphs on head & chest

My build:
Head: heavy chudan
Shoulder: light pirate skeleton
Chest: heavy innate axiom
Legs: light innate axiom
Gloves: light riposte
Sash: light riposte
Boots: light axiom
Neck: infused reduce cost enchant willpower
Ring1: infused recovery willpower, maybe use sp dmg if using siphoning attacks
Ring2: infused sp dmg riposte
Weapon main:sharp innate axiom 2h
Weapon off: defending resto riposte

Skiill main:
Sap, assassin's will, forward momentum, concealed, mage light, incap

Offbar:
Shadowy disguise, lotus fan, fear, healing ward, mage light(flex spot, maybe siphoning attacks), lights champion

Lover mundus, citrus fillet food

This build fully buffed has approx 3k sp dmg (2k unbuffed) with ~15k pen(14.5k), unbuffed approx 20k resistances ~ 24k buffed. ~1.8k recovery & ~2k with resource buff or you can use siphoning, ~50% crit & almost 60 points into cp tree inc crit dmg

No poisons, just inc sp & weapon enchant front & magic recovery back (poisons could be used on back but I'm not running the right cp for that build.
Oh & stop putting tons into elemental expert, get a clue, master at arms scales better up to ~72 points when ele expert you only need around ~10-20
Also if you're not using at least 2 dots & skoria don't bother with thaumaturge ie... the dot cp tree.

Sure my max magic is low, 36k main 34k back, health 23k main, 24k back, but I can hit & take hits & if you're playing properly by keeping a resource buff on you or using either weakness to elements or siphoning attacks, your sustain should be on point.

Sure you can swap monster helms but tanking a Zerg full of bads & escaping, or killing them is hilarious. I honestly haven't tried troll king so it could be good?

& shout out to knightmxre on console for his aterna build, his cp needs work & bar setup needs work, but after constantly thinking I decided he was right on using 2 willpower on jewelry instead of the way I was doing it trying to run 3 on front bar & having a single dead spot on back. It enabled me to have both bars benefit & use a 2nd monster piece.

Heavy passive are good if you're an Argonian destro/resto using shade
Anything else just seems less efficient to me. I can make a good heavy build, even run axiom & riposte & swap out willpower & monster for 4 flame blossom to add extra pen, but the passives just aren't worth it to me. I can just run 1pirate, 1chudan & have basically the same resistances

glhf

My build actually has the same amount of burst as yours to go along with sustained pressure. You’ve got an effective spell power of ~8800 but part of that is the difference between our crit chances, which means I’ll have higher tooltips but ~10% less penetration.

You just can’t compare a 2h/resto to destro/resto anymore, the sustain needed for a 2h build means you’ll struggle to push more burst and can’t even come close to the sustained pressure.

On a 2h build, healing passives are less important because you don’t have the same amount of HoTs, less overall healing makes healing received less efficient but calling this build gimmicky because it’s not bursty enough when my burst combo is hitting with 2-3% of yours is borderline delusional.

Also, I don’t have to look at the perspective of a series of 1v1 because Duroks makes cleave damage stick and having an aoe CC ultimate let’s me use that as both an execute for 1 target and a way to open my burst window on the next.

In general we’re talking about two vastly different play styles, I just don’t understand where you’re coming from with the relying too much on cheese when I’ve got almost an identical damage coefficient to your build and I get to add destro weaves and sload proc into that.

Also, only 3 tri-glyphs means you have what, 12k stam on a build that needs to use FM every 12-15 seconds? Can’t sustain that man, you’ve simply got to run away from a good amount of fights don’t you?

You also have 0 fight control, meaning you’re totally at the mercy of your opponents. I feel confident saying your build is way more reliant on a gimmick(cloak+FM to avoid any losing fights) than mine.

thankyourat wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

You guys are forgetting one very important aspect of a fight.
"Don't get hit"
If you have a cancer build & I have burst, but you can't hit me; I win.
Stealth, dodge, meridia's blessing can all counter this cancer.

I prefer being good with stealth, I also prefer to debuff you with riposte & have 20k unbuffed resistances.
Typically cancer isn't killing players with 1 move/ability/proc, it's the combination; so if I debuff you with riposte; GG

Stealth play styles and light armor are just fine and still viable but no stealth builds just have more of everything. You need less sustain, get an extra skill slot, and have your primary defense hard countered far less often. If you build for no-stealth you’re viable in a wider array of situations. I don’t have to think twice about engaging a group with a Stam Sorc or Nightblade because they can’t hard counter me. There’s just so many situations where some rando scrub marks you or spams gap closer with hurricane up and ruins your 1vX despite the fact that they’re bringing nothing else to the fight. I mean, your setup probably has 12k more max magika and about the same spell damage right? About 9500 effective spellpower, maybe 10k? This one is ~8000. If my burst hits 20k on squishier you’re probably at what, 24k?

@leepalmer95 has it right, you can’t burst 30k health without multiple people ulti dumping and animation canceling a healing ward with a dodge roll then using shade is enough to from execute to 20k+ health. I mean, we’ve got 4K+ HPS and 3600 health regen, add that in with a healing ward(2k heal) and the fight is basically reset. Even with defile it’s still ~3k health regained every second.

Edit: Also, the higher health pool means you enter execute around 7500 health, which is actually enough to survive endless fury or impale hitting your health pool usually

I'm not saying your build is weak by any means dude. In fact it may be a meta build considering how easy it is to be successful, especially for players coming from another class to nb.

I'm just saying there are viable alternatives for players wanting a higher skill cap.
As players start to learn their own play style & adapt to nb strengths & weaknesses, they find out other methods of being successful that will ultimately last through the various patch-to-patch nerfs & buffs.

I prefer to build like this as it's less costly between patches & allows you to get better at the class rather than some temporary niche which may not exist in a few months.

I guess I'm just of the opinion that if you're going into cyrodiil with less than the ability to penetrate 12k of your opponents resistances then you're either doing it wrong or just on the monthly cheese. I understand why you're riding the cheese wave, it's been done to us plenty. I'm just more of a fan of legit stuff.

/endRant

The thing is a pure light armor magblade with only Cloak and shade as a form of defensive is too easily countered. There is no way to have enough fight control while outnumbered to make up for the builds lack of healing and resistances combined with all the natural counters to the class. Lexy build is just a standard build of heavy armor+ damage set+ monster set he's just using proc sets instead of max stat sets. My build last patch for instance was axiom/riposte and I started with blood spawn and ended up switching to troll king. And this patch I'm running heavy seducer/spinners/troll king. I play light armor from time to time as well and I do believe it's viable especially 1v1, but there are too many variables that can make light armor simply unplayable at times. Also nothing is saying you can't have high damage and utilize strengths inherent to the nightblade class while still wearing heavy armor and being tanky. Like I play with Cloak, shade, about 5k worth of hots without troll king proc as well as my assassin's will has a 22k tooltip and 40k Magicka all while wearing heavy armor. Abilities have advanced far too much to simply not get hit. You now have to build to be able to take a hit or two

I feel very strongly that increasing the number of situations you’re viable in allows you to push your skill much more than cherry picking easy fights with a burst build.

It’s not as though I’m not kiting, I use shade and cripple and fear to kite, I just don’t have a mechanic that is either Totally OP and completely dominates the fight, hard countered, or somewhere in between.

I fully agree our builds basically follow the same template. I basically build my open world build the same way you explained your build. I just don't like proc set gameplay personally but I have nothing against the sets my self especially if you play solo I believe you can use whatever you want. I was replying to @kaithuzar trying to explain that you can be both tanky and deal a decent amount of damage and still keep sort of a light armor style of play. I personally believe there is no one way to play magblade as long as you build enough survivability to fight outside of cloak. Too many times I'll play light armor and get marked by some random nightblade who does nothing but try to keep me out of stealth.

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Exactly. Heavy armor helps you defend even if you're ccd or whatever , whereas if you make a misstep in light you're basically fallen over. I think that's why LA is a bit more challenging this patch, but so so fun.

That's what I like about heavy. mistakes on magblade are already so amplified when trying to 1vX that with light armor you will lose some 1vXes simply because you are a light armor magblade and it wouldn't matter your skill level, I've never really liked that. I think that's the main reason why I prefer heavy. I like to give myself a chance in more fights.

That last paragraph is the pint I’m trying to make for @Metemsycosis

There are some situations where you cannot win and probably shouldn’t even engage on a light armor mageblade. These include groups that have anyone running Mark, a talented stam sorc, more than 3-4 times your numbers of non brain dead players, etc. but a heavy mageblade that isn’t stealth reliant can engage and potentially win fights you’d never have a chance against in light. This allows you to put yourself into even more challenging positions.

I keep using the fighting more people in heavy because I know if you get jumped on by 6 people in light it’s escape, get help, or die in 90% of scenarios. But if you’re in heavy it’s closer to a 50/50, if you can resto and reposition with shade you can actually fight this group and push yourself harder than you would consider in light.

I agree that light requires more skill if we’re talking about equal scenarios. But heavy let’s you get into more scenarios and remain viable.

kaithuzar

@Lexxypwns
Firstly, I had a few drinks last night before I wrote that...

Secondly, I don't have problems managing my stam because I have the same points in cp inc magic recovery and inc stam recovery; like 50~ something , so my stam recovery is almost ~900ish

And thirdly, as for what you wrote to metempsychosis, sure if you are that afraid of dying in game, then play like that. I go in on basically every situation because I want to see how far I can push it, how close can I come to killing all, I know that when I die there will be know negative contributions from it, so I go all out and see what happens & have fun

Waffennacht

Metemsycosis wrote: »

All I do lately.

@Metemsycosis that post was for @Lexxypwns lol. And it's a joke cuz that's where I see him lmfao.

And lexxy just went right by it

Korrasami

Would this same setup work for Magicka Templar or is Overwhelming still better than sloads?

Joshlenoir

@Lexxypwns
Hey I play a stamina nightblade I'm new to PvP.
Do you have a build that could help me out? I keep getting my ass kicked and I need a powerful gear combination to make up for what I lack in knowledge of my class mechanics

Lexxypwns

Joshlenoir wrote: »

@Lexxypwns
Hey I play a stamina nightblade I'm new to PvP.
Do you have a build that could help me out? I keep getting my ass kicked and I need a powerful gear combination to make up for what I lack in knowledge of my class mechanics

Run 10pc Spriggans

Adenoma

Why 10 when you can run 12? Is a monster helm that important?

Lexxypwns

Adenoma wrote: »

Why 10 when you can run 12? Is a monster helm that important?

2pc Desert Rose to counter those OP mages

leepalmer95

@Lexxypwns

Made the build

First fight 2v7 against a full 750 team including a healbot and dedicated snipe spammer.

Very balance

12/10

Much approve.