Assassin’s Will = ‘I win’ button over other classes

WaltherCarraway

All nightblades have to do magicka foes version
incap to get advantage (vs templar, warden, chance of un-ccbreak-able)
fear per 7 sec to drain stam (all)
poison to bust heal (all)
light attack (++sorc when shieldbreaker equipped)
dodge powerlash (DK)
break fossilize (DK)
Use the skill that outperform most of the ULTS to finish off the enemy.

Despite the fact that fair amount of nightblades are way too generic which making their rotation / strike dodgable. However the trend of getting one shot by some good nightblades with such unpredictable BS skill (someone said bleed?) during small group fight is out of control. Not even snipe, which you can hear and somehow spot 0.3sec before hitting you. Dude, this assassin will stuff is not okay at all.

arkansas_ESO

LOL

Ectheliontnacil

poison to bust heal

Ehhh nightblade does not have access to any class "bust" heals...and a poison "bust heal sounds fishy to me.

Regarding assassin's will you must realise one thing, it's not a skill that can be layered with other burst. Curse or deep fissure for example can be combined with a second hard hitting ability in the same instant. Curse+frags+endless fury (which can all proc at the same time) deal much more dmg than 1 assassin's will. I do agree that assassin's will is a very strong ability, but without it a magblade has very little kill potential.

dodge powerlash
break fossilize

You do realise that every class (especially medium armour builds) can easily dodge? Dodging is nothing nightblade specific. And every build will break free from your CC (fossilize), I mean what are you expecting??? Your opponents should just roll over and die?

Shieldbreaker is broken on any class. Stamdk or stamden would probably be much harder to deal with when running shieldbreaker. A friend of mine had some awful shieldbreaker stamdk with snares and wings ofc, that he used to hunt sorc emps. Any non emp but very skilled sorc didn't last long against this spec. At least a shieldbreaking nb you can kill, since they're very squishy.

Didn't address all your points but it's fairly obvious that you don't understand the combat system well enough to make complaints about it. Stamblades are arguably still overperforming in Cyrodiil but not because they have the ability to break CCs.

IxSTALKERxI

Nerf sorc, buff nightblade.

Adenoma

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Nerf sorc, buff nightblade.

The lord giveth, and sometimes he giveth some more.

Lucky28

Assassins will makes a loud ass sound when someone fires it at you. if you can't dodge it that's on you.

Lexxypwns

Lucky28 wrote: »

Assassins will makes a loud ass sound when someone fires it at you. if you can't dodge it that's on you.

Or block it or reflect it.

NB is OP but nerfing Incap is the right call

CyrusArya

People, some of the same people, cried and complained about another skill that got gutted in crystal frags. This then crippled the class for all the sorcs that couldn’t manage to get a dsa group and get a master inferno, rendering the class very uncompetitive. ZOS then compensated by making rune cage OP, a change that neither sorcs nor those who oppose sorcs like. In the end, no one is happy. The irony is, that crystal frags was a skill with the most counter play in the game. You can dodge it, you can block it, you can reflect it. Now you have unavoidable cage burst combos coming off of a skill with 0 counterplay. [Snip].

I use this as a cautionary tale. Like frags, will is an essential component of mageblade offense. Is it strong? Of course. Does it have tons of counterplay? Absolutely. Learn it. Get good. Less QQ and more Pew Pew makes the game a better place.

[Edited to remove bait/flame]

Adenoma

Incap into will is overtuned, but it isn’t the will portion that’s problematic. It’s an enormously telegraphed move. Literally if you haven’t seen someone cast it and you know the fight has gone for at least 5 weaves then you need to play like it’s available to them.

ShadowMonarch

It has to be built up with 5 light attacks so it cannot be just thrown out willy nilly. You have to survive while you build it up then hope it doesn't get one of the following:

Blocked.
Dodged.
Reflected.
Ontop of that it is extremely loud when casted, letting you know its coming.

If one of those does happen then your burst damage is gone while you have to build another one up. Its not like a warden that just spams his beetles or a snipe spammer hitting you with 3 snipes at once when you can't physically see them coming.

It has to be built up and then placed with precision to be effective.

CyrusArya wrote: »

People, some of the same people, cried and complained about another skill that got gutted in crystal frags. This then crippled the class for all the sorcs that couldn’t manage to get a dsa group and get a master inferno, rendering the class very uncompetitive. ZOS then compensated by making rune cage OP, a change that neither sorcs nor those who oppose sorcs like. In the end, no one is happy. The irony is, that crystal frags was a skill with the most counter play in the game. You can dodge it, you can block it, you can reflect it. Now you have unavoidable cage burst combos coming off of a skill with 0 counterplay. [Snip].

I use this as a cautionary tale. Like frags, will is an essential component of mageblade offense. Is it strong? Of course. Does it have tons of counterplay? Absolutely. Learn it. Get good. Less QQ and more Pew Pew makes the game a better place.

Well said.

[Edited for quote]

zyk

It's interesting that you call Assassin's Will OP while referencing two DK abilities that are just as strong.

It's also interesting that you note Power Lash can be dodged without considering that Assassin's Will can also be dodged and blocked.

You reference fear, an unblockable CC while noting you also use an unblockable DK CC, Fossilize.

You write about being drained of Stamina which can be a challenge for all Magicka builds, but DKs have it better than others because of Helping Hands and Battle Roar.

It's true that Stamina builds can't be defeated by draining them of Stamina as easily as Magicka builds, but that's not an advantage unique to Nightblades.

WaltherCarraway

CyrusArya wrote: »

People, some of the same people, cried and complained about another skill that got gutted in crystal frags. This then crippled the class for all the sorcs that couldn’t manage to get a dsa group and get a master inferno, rendering the class very uncompetitive. ZOS then compensated by making rune cage OP, a change that neither sorcs nor those who oppose sorcs like. In the end, no one is happy. The irony is, that crystal frags was a skill with the most counter play in the game. You can dodge it, you can block it, you can reflect it. Now you have unavoidable cage burst combos coming off of a skill with 0 counterplay. [Snip].

I use this as a cautionary tale. Like frags, will is an essential component of mageblade offense. Is it strong? Of course. Does it have tons of counterplay? Absolutely. Learn it. Get good. Less QQ and more Pew Pew makes the game a better place.

Look, I expected nothing from people on the Internet. From what I’ve seen from your reply, you’re still taking past & present stuffs personal. In fact I don’t even care about whether an ingame skill once frustrated me changed or not. The good thing is dev never listen to stuff on forum. I really hope you to say the same when others QQ about magden & magdk; or no one’s playing because they already in the ground? This “I want you to shut up and go away because I don’t agree with you” stuff need to go, honestly. Please don’t give a poop when you don’t have to give a poop, or delete this thread via sorcery.

/s

[Edited for quote]

NightbladeMechanics

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Lord_Hev

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Lord_Hev

@WaltherCarraway I apologize for turning this into a nerf sorc thread.

Heresyall

Yes ^^

NightbladeMechanics

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Max magicka builds have low damage compared to builds with more evenly distributed stats because you encounter extremely strong diminishing returns on tooltip damage obtained from max magicka as you get to higher amounts. To illustrate, last patch I ran dual wield Shackle + Spinner with 45k magicka. My buddy Explanicide ran a 59k max magicka build. My buffed but unprocced frag tooltip was not quite 500 damage less than his despite me wearing Spinner and him having 19 thousand more magicka than me -- and I did not use Inner Light or Bound Aegis. I hit harder on target due to the pen. Explanicide is not quite to the CP cap, but I adjusted mine to compensate for that while we were comparing damage output.

The build I'm referencing this patch is a spell damage fire staff build with 42k magicka and 4764 spell damage. The sets are Spellweave + 2 Kena + Spinner with mage mundus and 3 damage glyphs, and yes, it sustains in open world just fine even while proccing Kena back to back by using Witchmother's, Ele Drain, and Dark Conversion. It runs just over 1700 effective regen (counting Ele Drain as 600) plus Conversion when I need it.

Max magicka builds are not for damage. They're for shield size. Don't neglect your spell damage. 3k is pitiful for sorc. I'm really excited to see what I can do with infused jewelry glyphs. I have not done any tested to see if they're worth using, though.

Edit: I'm going to add that I'm used to running around with 1100-1200 magicka regen on my sorc without Ele Drain. I don't use a spammable ability and use Conversion a lot. I'm also going to add that I recognize Spellweave and Kena together make for some super unreliable damage output, but the tooltip and build are there, are practical once you're used to the regen, and do hurt like ***. I've been playing my sorc all week, Qaev. Sorc is back man. The damage is unreal, and I'm having a blast. I just need to get practice syncing up these spell damage procs.

Lord_Hev

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Max magicka builds have low damage compared to builds with more evenly distributed stats because you encounter extremely strong diminishing returns on tooltip damage obtained from max magicka as you get to higher amounts. To illustrate, last patch I ran dual wield Shackle + Spinner with 45k magicka. My buddy Explanicide ran a 59k max magicka build. My buffed but unprocced frag tooltip was not quite 500 damage less than his despite me wearing Spinner and him having 19 thousand more magicka than me -- and I did not use Inner Light or Bound Aegis. I hit harder on target. Explanicide is not quite to the CP cap, but I adjusted mine to compensate for that while we were comparing damage output.

The build I'm referencing this patch is a spell damage fire staff build with 42k magicka and 4764 spell damage. The sets are Spellweave + 2 Kena + Spinner with mage mundus and 3 damage glyphs, and yes, it sustains in open world just fine even while proccing Kena back to back by using Witchmother's, Ele Drain, and Dark Conversion. It runs just over 1700 effective regen (counting Ele Drain as 600) plus Conversion when I need it.

Max magicka builds are not for damage. They're for shield size. Don't neglect your spell damage. I'm really excited to see what I can do with infused jewelry glyphs. I have not done any tested to see if they're worth using, though.

Edit: I'm going to add that I'm used to running around with 1100-1200 magicka regen on my sorc without Ele Drain. I don't use a spammable ability and use Conversion a lot. I'm also going to add that I recognize Spellweave and Kena together make for some super unreliable damage output, but the tooltip and build are there, are practical once you're used to the regen, and do hurt like ***. I've been playing my sorc all week Qaev. Sorc is back man, and the damage is unreal.

Interesting, in truth I underestimate just how much return Minor Magickasteal gives. I'm skeptical about this performing in open world, but the resource management and burst timing would be manageable in duel scenarios.

I'm not a fan of infused personally. I see it as being more useful for stam builds then mag builds.

zyk

So we're all in agreement, then: nerf sorc!

NightbladeMechanics

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Max magicka builds have low damage compared to builds with more evenly distributed stats because you encounter extremely strong diminishing returns on tooltip damage obtained from max magicka as you get to higher amounts. To illustrate, last patch I ran dual wield Shackle + Spinner with 45k magicka. My buddy Explanicide ran a 59k max magicka build. My buffed but unprocced frag tooltip was not quite 500 damage less than his despite me wearing Spinner and him having 19 thousand more magicka than me -- and I did not use Inner Light or Bound Aegis. I hit harder on target. Explanicide is not quite to the CP cap, but I adjusted mine to compensate for that while we were comparing damage output.

The build I'm referencing this patch is a spell damage fire staff build with 42k magicka and 4764 spell damage. The sets are Spellweave + 2 Kena + Spinner with mage mundus and 3 damage glyphs, and yes, it sustains in open world just fine even while proccing Kena back to back by using Witchmother's, Ele Drain, and Dark Conversion. It runs just over 1700 effective regen (counting Ele Drain as 600) plus Conversion when I need it.

Max magicka builds are not for damage. They're for shield size. Don't neglect your spell damage. I'm really excited to see what I can do with infused jewelry glyphs. I have not done any tested to see if they're worth using, though.

Edit: I'm going to add that I'm used to running around with 1100-1200 magicka regen on my sorc without Ele Drain. I don't use a spammable ability and use Conversion a lot. I'm also going to add that I recognize Spellweave and Kena together make for some super unreliable damage output, but the tooltip and build are there, are practical once you're used to the regen, and do hurt like ***. I've been playing my sorc all week Qaev. Sorc is back man, and the damage is unreal.

Interesting, in truth I underestimate just how much return Minor Magickasteal gives. I'm skeptical about this performing in open world, but the resource management and burst timing would be manageable in duel scenarios.

I'm not a fan of infused personally. I see it as being more useful for stam builds then mag builds.

I hesitate to give up the max magicka of arcane...but I want to prioritize damage. I've always been comfy with smaller shields, more shield spam and streaking around than big bubbles. Lots of roll dodging too. I use well-fitted.

And I build and play for open world. The build sustains fine as long as you don't spam too much aside from when you're aiming to kill. The real issue with it is damage consistency. Spellweave uptime is miserably low, resulting in annoying moments waiting for it to proc. I see myself favoring Julianos or Shackle in the long run.

Juhasow

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Max magicka builds have low damage compared to builds with more evenly distributed stats because you encounter extremely strong diminishing returns on tooltip damage obtained from max magicka as you get to higher amounts. To illustrate, last patch I ran dual wield Shackle + Spinner with 45k magicka. My buddy Explanicide ran a 59k max magicka build. My buffed but unprocced frag tooltip was not quite 500 damage less than his despite me wearing Spinner and him having 19 thousand more magicka than me -- and I did not use Inner Light or Bound Aegis. I hit harder on target due to the pen. Explanicide is not quite to the CP cap, but I adjusted mine to compensate for that while we were comparing damage output.

The build I'm referencing this patch is a spell damage fire staff build with 42k magicka and 4764 spell damage. The sets are Spellweave + 2 Kena + Spinner with mage mundus and 3 damage glyphs, and yes, it sustains in open world just fine even while proccing Kena back to back by using Witchmother's, Ele Drain, and Dark Conversion. It runs just over 1700 effective regen (counting Ele Drain as 600) plus Conversion when I need it.

Max magicka builds are not for damage. They're for shield size. Don't neglect your spell damage. 3k is pitiful for sorc. I'm really excited to see what I can do with infused jewelry glyphs. I have not done any tested to see if they're worth using, though.

Edit: I'm going to add that I'm used to running around with 1100-1200 magicka regen on my sorc without Ele Drain. I don't use a spammable ability and use Conversion a lot. I'm also going to add that I recognize Spellweave and Kena together make for some super unreliable damage output, but the tooltip and build are there, are practical once you're used to the regen, and do hurt like ***. I've been playing my sorc all week, Qaev. Sorc is back man. The damage is unreal, and I'm having a blast. I just need to get practice syncing up these spell damage procs.

Diminishing returs is not the best explanation of what You wanted to say here. For most of the damaging abilities ratio for magicka versus spell dmg is 10,5 which means 1 point of spell dmg adds the same amount of dmg to ability tooltip as 10,5 points of magicka. We can make quick math and see that with 42k magicka and 4,8k spell dmg You get similar tooltips as someone with 60k magicka and 3,1k spell dmg (then ofc final values can be not the same because of different penetration , CP's etc). Basicly if You have for example 10k magicka and You'll add 1k , tooltip for damaging abilities will be increased by the same numeric value like when You would have 6Ok magicka and add 1k so there is no diminishing returns. On magsorc the only damaging ability that is scaled stronger of spell dmg are mines which treat every 1 point of spell dmg like 20 points of magicka.

Ixtyr

Merciless has a higher tooltip base than Overload.

Ever think that might be because you can't spam multiple Merciless procs in succession, but you can hit Overload a bunch or choose to channel it for continuous, consistent damage?

They're fundamentally different skills that function in different ways and have different use cases. If anything, you should be comparing Merciless to Crystal Fragments, if you also assume that Frags were something you could only cast when it procced and couldn't be hard-cast.

Merciless is an extremely telegraphed skill with a relatively slow travel time (faster than it used to be, but still very visible) that can also be dodged or reflected. It also requires build up and at least somewhat skillful use to be made effective against non-potato opponents. In other words, it's a reasonably counterable non-spammable damage skill. So, what's the problem, exactly?

Talcyndl

Ixtyr wrote: »

So, what's the problem, exactly?

"It killed me!"

CatchMeTrolling

Might be off topic but why is every counter argument purely based on a 1v1 perspective, in open world it's not even ideal for you to get a 1v1. Most people don't even engage me, they'll just run past. So when i get hit with powerful skills its usually in an xv1 so blocking , dodging and anticipating isnt always realistic when youre dealing with multiple people and classes.

Rianai

1vX is imbalanced by definition and only relevant for skill balance, if something becomes exceptionally strong or hard to counter relative to other skills in the same situation.
Which is not the case for Assassins Will. Even if it might become harder to reactively avoid it when fighting multiple players (the sound cue helps a lot in those situations though, more than visual cues imo), this applies to pretty much everything. But all the aviable counters are still there and working. If not used in a reacting way, then maybe "accidentially" by utilizing pretty much any form of defense, which you have to do regardless, or you are going to die in a 1vX situation no matter what. Unavoidable damage (and spammable damage to some extent) tends to be a much bigger threat in 1vX, than non spammable hard hitters like Will or Frags, even if the latter might have a higher potential damage.
For example, i suck at avoiding Frags (even in 1vs1 i have to admit). But when i'm fighting multiple sorcs, it is usually still not Frags which kills me. It is curse + fury. And when outnumbered vs nightblades, Assassins Will or Scourge are among the least things i'm worried about.
So those skills being harder to avoid when outnumbered is just a result of the imbalanced nature of the situation itself, not an issue with skill balance.

LegacyDM

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Qaevir, what build is that where your getting 57k magicka with 2k regen? Armor sets specifically.

Lord_Hev

LegacyDM wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Qaevir, what build is that where your getting 57k magicka with 2k regen? Armor sets specifically.

It's my age-old max magic build, but it's really not so great anymore, it was just used as an example to illustrate extreme tooltip numbers.


1 Grothdar 1 Infernal Guardian 4 Necropotence, 3 Shadow Dancer(or any other set that gives 2pc Magic 3pc Magic lines) 3pc Willpower. All magic regen on the jewelry glyphs with Witchmothers.

That is the maximum magic possible without relying on 5pc Necropotence, add roughly an additional 1.5k if you replace willpower with 3pc Ancient Grace.

Minalan

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Max magicka builds have low damage compared to builds with more evenly distributed stats because you encounter extremely strong diminishing returns on tooltip damage obtained from max magicka as you get to higher amounts. To illustrate, last patch I ran dual wield Shackle + Spinner with 45k magicka. My buddy Explanicide ran a 59k max magicka build. My buffed but unprocced frag tooltip was not quite 500 damage less than his despite me wearing Spinner and him having 19 thousand more magicka than me -- and I did not use Inner Light or Bound Aegis. I hit harder on target. Explanicide is not quite to the CP cap, but I adjusted mine to compensate for that while we were comparing damage output.

The build I'm referencing this patch is a spell damage fire staff build with 42k magicka and 4764 spell damage. The sets are Spellweave + 2 Kena + Spinner with mage mundus and 3 damage glyphs, and yes, it sustains in open world just fine even while proccing Kena back to back by using Witchmother's, Ele Drain, and Dark Conversion. It runs just over 1700 effective regen (counting Ele Drain as 600) plus Conversion when I need it.

Max magicka builds are not for damage. They're for shield size. Don't neglect your spell damage. I'm really excited to see what I can do with infused jewelry glyphs. I have not done any tested to see if they're worth using, though.

Edit: I'm going to add that I'm used to running around with 1100-1200 magicka regen on my sorc without Ele Drain. I don't use a spammable ability and use Conversion a lot. I'm also going to add that I recognize Spellweave and Kena together make for some super unreliable damage output, but the tooltip and build are there, are practical once you're used to the regen, and do hurt like ***. I've been playing my sorc all week Qaev. Sorc is back man, and the damage is unreal.

Interesting, in truth I underestimate just how much return Minor Magickasteal gives. I'm skeptical about this performing in open world, but the resource management and burst timing would be manageable in duel scenarios.

I'm not a fan of infused personally. I see it as being more useful for stam builds then mag builds.

I hesitate to give up the max magicka of arcane...but I want to prioritize damage. I've always been comfy with smaller shields, more shield spam and streaking around than big bubbles. Lots of roll dodging too. I use well-fitted.

And I build and play for open world. The build sustains fine as long as you don't spam too much aside from when you're aiming to kill. The real issue with it is damage consistency. Spellweave uptime is miserably low, resulting in annoying moments waiting for it to proc. I see myself favoring Julianos or Shackle in the long run.

Same here, I’ve gotten used to the smaller shields. You can mitigate far better with 15K-19K or so stamina with 1100 stamina regen. Damage is so high this patch you need to avoid it altogether, and stamina regen doubles as fuel for dark exchange. With DE you can sustain with 1500 or so regen when needed, and it can’t be interrupted when you’re CC immune.

I’d take spinner over shackle. The armor pen stacking is just too good, even against a Sorc every time your damage bleeds through, it’s a hell of a lot more.

There’s just no bar space any more for mage light and aegis. If you’re not using cage, you’re really missing out. It pretty much guarantees an empowered light attack hit woven with a frag. It ignores dodge roll. It force-drops block. If you cage right before a nightblade cloaks, it yanks them out. We finally got our own fear/fossilize.

This patch we can run old dual wield builds with a Destro staff and use heavy/light attack weaving.

Minalan

Lord_Hev wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't know about the frag reference. I have a 20.5 buffed but unprocced frag tooltip right now on my sorc...and that's up more frequently than will.

deleting people with will. Learn to anticipate it, then block or dodge or cc the nightblade. Will has extremely obvious telegraphs which you can learn to work around. The nightblade's entire tempo will revolve around lining one of those up in a combo.

Strawman argument. No sorc build with enough sustain to actually last in pvp will have that kind of tooltip.


What is objective fact: Merciless Resolve has a higher base tooltip then Overload. Overload only gets a higher tooltip with the aid of Elegance.

Let alone crystal frag. The two skills are not even damage-numerically comparable. Even more so with the loss of empower.


Let's talk real statistics now, as I would know what an actual frag tooltip looks like, and how to achieve it.

Ex: 1






The critical point to take note of is magicka regen. This is Witchmothers and 3 gold regen glyphs. 58k magicka with an Inferno staff and a destruction ability slotted for 8% boosted damage on single-target abilities(crystal frag)


Now we are going to completely obliterate my already barely acceptable regen for openworld magsorc in an effort to overkill the tooltip value and stack as much spell damage as possible in combination with extreme magic pool mathemetically possible with available traits, set lines, and mundus stone while still keeping witchmothers to scrape as much sustain as possible.







19k frag tooltip on a fire destro build with an utterly objectively unsustainable 1,300 magic regen. In order to possibly sustain this for longer then a minute, you would need to not be taking damage, so no need to cast any defensive skills I.e: a target dummy.


But lets get a 20k tooltip, with no frag proc, buffed.






To achieve that, I had to reach 63,000 magicka and 3.1k spell dmg with all spell dmg glyphs and equipping my Nirn DW swords that I may as well decon as DW sorc burst has been nailed into a coffin and buried.

Don't even ask about 800 regen lol. Even with elemental drain on a target dummy you will run dry in under 20 seconds, assuming these exact stats are somehow replicated with a destro staff.




But if somehow that number you suggested is not fabricated, I would love to see it in action. I yearn for nothing more then for Magsorc to return to greatness. Please, please prove me wrong. I need hope.

Qaevir, what build is that where your getting 57k magicka with 2k regen? Armor sets specifically.

It's my age-old max magic build, but it's really not so great anymore, it was just used as an example to illustrate extreme tooltip numbers.


1 Grothdar 1 Infernal Guardian 4 Necropotence, 3 Shadow Dancer(or any other set that gives 2pc Magic 3pc Magic lines) 3pc Willpower. All magic regen on the jewelry glyphs with Witchmothers.

That is the maximum magic possible without relying on 5pc Necropotence, add roughly an additional 1.5k if you replace willpower with 3pc Ancient Grace.

Your Max Magicka build you ran during the no-CP event is almost better. The no-pet Necropotence setup using maw of the infernal with atronach.

Yeah I learned that there are better ways to blow a 4 piece set than just 3K Magicka, or a three piece for 2K Magicka. There are some really good five piece bonuses you miss out on. Necro. Amberplasm. Spinner. Riposte. Lich. Shackle-breaker, etc.

NBrookus

zyk wrote: »

You reference fear, an unblockable CC while noting you also use an unblockable DK CC, Fossilize.

Plus, Fear is only stronger than Fossilize because the CC break is slow and buggy. If you could break fear as cleanly as Fossilize it'd be weaker in a 1v1 scenario because of the shorter range.

Assassin's Will is how good magblades get kills. If the OP is dying to good magblades using Will... sounds like it's working correctly.

zyk

NBrookus wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

You reference fear, an unblockable CC while noting you also use an unblockable DK CC, Fossilize.

Plus, Fear is only stronger than Fossilize because the CC break is slow and buggy. If you could break fear as cleanly as Fossilize it'd be weaker in a 1v1 scenario because of the shorter range.

Assassin's Will is how good magblades get kills. If the OP is dying to good magblades using Will... sounds like it's working correctly.

I would take Fossilize over Fear. They each have pros and cons. The last time I played my Magblade regularly, I had replaced Fear with Malefic Wreath, an Agony morph, for most builds.

Newer players and non-NBs may not know that Agony is a skill that was removed last year when all of the Disorient abilities were changed. It used to function similar to the original DK Petrify skill. I'm still very salty that it's gone as I very much enjoyed the playstyles I based around it.