A lack of theory crafters.

Avalon

Unfortunately, a couple of things add up to a lack of theorycrafting. First, there are millions of players, and a ton are involved in finding the best builds, it’s a very large crowdsourcing project. Second, there actually isn’t a great deal to theorycraft in ESO, and what there was, has been worked out already. There’s only so many classes, races, abilities... and the equipment sets are fairly obvious which ones are BiS.

The game that pretty much lived on the idea of making whatever character you want, near perfect freedom in building, actually has some of the least amounts of true freedom, because it allows so well for building perfect metas. Imo, a large part of the problem is that the end-game caters almost exclusively to elites using those metas. It should lower the bar, so that having only the BiS approach is not necessary, just a bit of lowering of that bar would open up the amounts and diversity of builds that work, which then would allow for a much larger array of builds and theorycrafting.

But, as long as the game has about 10-15% locked behind having the absolute best builds, it limits the amount of theorycrafting that actually can be done, and, honestly, not enough changes patch to patch, or even with DLC/Expansion, to cause people long periods of instability in builds. Instead, it’s more like, ‘oh, they changed that? Ok, I’ll use this morph instead’... ‘theorycrafting’ done.

Dyride

Avalon wrote: »

Unfortunately, a couple of things add up to a lack of theorycrafting. First, there are millions of players, and a ton are involved in finding the best builds, it’s a very large crowdsourcing project. Second, there actually isn’t a great deal to theorycraft in ESO, and what there was, has been worked out already. There’s only so many classes, races, abilities... and the equipment sets are fairly obvious which ones are BiS.

The game that pretty much lived on the idea of making whatever character you want, near perfect freedom in building, actually has some of the least amounts of true freedom, because it allows so well for building perfect metas. Imo, a large part of the problem is that the end-game caters almost exclusively to elites using those metas. It should lower the bar, so that having only the BiS approach is not necessary, just a bit of lowering of that bar would open up the amounts and diversity of builds that work, which then would allow for a much larger array of builds and theorycrafting.

But, as long as the game has about 10-15% locked behind having the absolute best builds, it limits the amount of theorycrafting that actually can be done, and, honestly, not enough changes patch to patch, or even with DLC/Expansion, to cause people long periods of instability in builds. Instead, it’s more like, ‘oh, they changed that? Ok, I’ll use this morph instead’... ‘theorycrafting’ done.

I feel like this is very wrong. All of the content can be completed (even hardmodes) without BiS gear. It just makes some mechanics easier than others.

It is obvious how to get 90% of the dps, but lots of time and effort goes into properly pulling the rest off (when you barswap, definite order of skills, priorities for different situations.)

ZOS is generally getting better but you still can't trust many tooltips or mechanics to work as expected. That is also where testers put in huge amounts of work.

MehrunesFlagon

Cause we don't need 200 people coming up with the same meta build for pve every patch.

JumpmanLane

The very best theory crafters only tell their friends and guildies as some one said before. “Read the patch notes. Read the skills...” What a friend of mine always says who’s killed EVERYBODY in Cyrodiil. (He’s played that long lol).

“Oh, I know him, I killed him in Cyrodiil.” Says that too.

SixVoltCar

Stop looking for plug-in-and-win solutions to problems and you might not be so disappointed.

FrancisCrawford

DPShiro wrote: »

Most of the original and true ones died with Tamriel Foundry.
People got burnt out, fed up with issues or just found another game.

I still do it and enjoy it nearly as much as playing tbh, but I keep the results etc to friends.

It’s also very ungrateful work to share most of the times.

Latin also observed -- on Tamriel Foundry -- that balance is better than it used to be, so theory-crafting is less important, or at least less impactful.

rustic_potato

Most theorycrafters tend to keep the new builds withing guild or sometimes withing static teams. My PVE group has weird builds fit for each trial and we don't share it with others cos we see no reason to do so. After seeing how ZOS nerfed igneous shields and Balance builds in early vHOF days it is better to have overtuned and high performing setups as low profile as possible. Even the top streamers don't give out their best build out to public in fear of the ZOS nerf.

Avalon

Dyride wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Unfortunately, a couple of things add up to a lack of theorycrafting. First, there are millions of players, and a ton are involved in finding the best builds, it’s a very large crowdsourcing project. Second, there actually isn’t a great deal to theorycraft in ESO, and what there was, has been worked out already. There’s only so many classes, races, abilities... and the equipment sets are fairly obvious which ones are BiS.

The game that pretty much lived on the idea of making whatever character you want, near perfect freedom in building, actually has some of the least amounts of true freedom, because it allows so well for building perfect metas. Imo, a large part of the problem is that the end-game caters almost exclusively to elites using those metas. It should lower the bar, so that having only the BiS approach is not necessary, just a bit of lowering of that bar would open up the amounts and diversity of builds that work, which then would allow for a much larger array of builds and theorycrafting.

But, as long as the game has about 10-15% locked behind having the absolute best builds, it limits the amount of theorycrafting that actually can be done, and, honestly, not enough changes patch to patch, or even with DLC/Expansion, to cause people long periods of instability in builds. Instead, it’s more like, ‘oh, they changed that? Ok, I’ll use this morph instead’... ‘theorycrafting’ done.

I feel like this is very wrong. All of the content can be completed (even hardmodes) without BiS gear. It just makes some mechanics easier than others.

It is obvious how to get 90% of the dps, but lots of time and effort goes into properly pulling the rest off (when you barswap, definite order of skills, priorities for different situations.)

ZOS is generally getting better but you still can't trust many tooltips or mechanics to work as expected. That is also where testers put in huge amounts of work.

I feel like your reply is wrong... I've been playing for years, and still cannot figure out how to get through veteran maelstrom, and can only barely get through the normal version, and then, only with one character I've ever made. Since I have been complimented on my player skill several times in ESO and various other MMOs, I have to assume that the skill part is not the reason, but rather my builds. As I play pretty efficient builds, but sacrifice that last little bit to have a character that has a lot of flavor and style, that means my characters are 80% the "BiS/Meta" builds.

Further, since I group with a ton of people, and most of them have the exact same problem? Pretty sure, that means that you are misinformed in some way, probably by a disconnect. But, that's not trying to be insulting, it happens in every game I play, I watch people get past that hurdle, whatever it is for that game, and as they continue to progress upwards, the rest of the playerbase continues to have difficulties... and at some point, the now-elite player starts looking back, wondering why people have ANY difficulties in the game, with any content, and forget that they ever were there, too. Or, worse, they are the type that is perfectly fine playing the BiS/Meta, and it honestly makes no sense why anyone else would rebel against it, or want to play something else, unless they just WANT to not do the best in the game.

In any case, from everyone I know in the game, who honestly do TRY to do the best, etc, just refuse to play the BiS builds, and instead want to play what they consider fun, but still very efficient (just not perfect efficiency), you are wrong, and only seeing things from the other side of that speed-bump in the game that I pointed out, where you are in the group who can do that 10-15%, and somehow not seeing that the 85% or so cannot get past it.

Tasear

Knowledge wrote: »

The game has a limited number of theory crafters at this juncture. Deltia's site rarely gets updated anymore, dottz gaming appears to be behind a bit, the only site with summerset builds up is Alcast. I'm not saying we have to have theory crafters to make a build but it does point the unknowing individuals in the right direction.

What is the reason for the lack of theory crafters at this point? Are others afraid to step up in fear of ridicule?

Well it takes time, and some things can only be tested on live. Also maybe you aren't looking in right places? The people over on tamerial foundry are quite excellent. All...my published builds are posted there too.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/349428/sorcerer-healers-collection-dragon-bones-updated-new-build-added#latest

Edit

The rule of thumb has always been wait a week. Most people catch up then.

josiahva

Its because only a few people like Alcast actually make new builds...everyone else just copies and pastes.

Knowledge

josiahva wrote: »

Its because only a few people like Alcast actually make new builds...everyone else just copies and pastes.

Alcast really does a lot for the community.

VilniusNastavnik

Knowledge wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Its because only a few people like Alcast actually make new builds...everyone else just copies and pastes.

Alcast really does a lot for the community.

His builds arent bad.. but they are very much reliant upon a heavily optimised group. His CP placement also takes much to be desired. Too many wasted points.

I see alcast as deltia was back in the day. A good starting point and nothing more. His builds are also very ping dependant. I find I can pull a lot more dps with my own builds than alcasts.

I just share my builds with mates in discord.. we discuss.. optimise and go from there but we dont bother sharing for a lot of the reasons said here.

Way too many players think if you arent chasing the meta you arent good enough. Some of us do better with non meta gear.

JackDaniell

Hello,
Iv been playing ESO since release and have always put allot of work into unique theory crafted builds that aim fulfill a desired playstyle rather then having the BIS stats and gear for the patch. My goal as a theory crafter is to see ton of unique builds in ESO, and i like to share mine to share ideas.

As someone who has literaly always made off meta builds (PvP) I have had very little exposure and i think this is due to preception. An off meta spec looks foreign to people who dont ubderstand it. This preception alone can cause people to seek out a meta spec that has lots of coverage of it being powerful vs the off meta that has one vid worth of footage.

This problem i think stems from a lack of balance early on in game where certain things just werent viable, this led to people naturaly averting anything that diddnt seen to function at top tier for pvp and players even ridiculing others for trying something different (so many slat tells i should have started a mine) regardless of how it performs. Top streamers early on also refused to play off meta and normaly still do so. A meta spec normaly provides better consistant results for an audiance, thierfore that is whats advertised.

As ballance improved this attitude did as well however this was a huge deterant to anyone making unique builds early on and i think has had a profound impact on the lean towards going BIS vs unique builds even today. Just sharing my thoughts on the subject.

Check out my content if you guys would like to, going back to release date, patch 1.3 stamina templar, lots of pre summerset and post summerset hybrid builds, and tons of other off meta specs. Best of luck theory crafting out thier!
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC6JQhQFfmPFnfA7Zfd3_70A&ved=2ahUKEwjVieSpxJ3bAhWqx4MKHf2IDOoQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1Vz_bKRnjzGB0GMAe-n1QL

Beardimus

Avalon wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Unfortunately, a couple of things add up to a lack of theorycrafting. First, there are millions of players, and a ton are involved in finding the best builds, it’s a very large crowdsourcing project. Second, there actually isn’t a great deal to theorycraft in ESO, and what there was, has been worked out already. There’s only so many classes, races, abilities... and the equipment sets are fairly obvious which ones are BiS.

The game that pretty much lived on the idea of making whatever character you want, near perfect freedom in building, actually has some of the least amounts of true freedom, because it allows so well for building perfect metas. Imo, a large part of the problem is that the end-game caters almost exclusively to elites using those metas. It should lower the bar, so that having only the BiS approach is not necessary, just a bit of lowering of that bar would open up the amounts and diversity of builds that work, which then would allow for a much larger array of builds and theorycrafting.

But, as long as the game has about 10-15% locked behind having the absolute best builds, it limits the amount of theorycrafting that actually can be done, and, honestly, not enough changes patch to patch, or even with DLC/Expansion, to cause people long periods of instability in builds. Instead, it’s more like, ‘oh, they changed that? Ok, I’ll use this morph instead’... ‘theorycrafting’ done.

I feel like this is very wrong. All of the content can be completed (even hardmodes) without BiS gear. It just makes some mechanics easier than others.

It is obvious how to get 90% of the dps, but lots of time and effort goes into properly pulling the rest off (when you barswap, definite order of skills, priorities for different situations.)

ZOS is generally getting better but you still can't trust many tooltips or mechanics to work as expected. That is also where testers put in huge amounts of work.

I feel like your reply is wrong... I've been playing for years, and still cannot figure out how to get through veteran maelstrom, and can only barely get through the normal version, and then, only with one character I've ever made. Since I have been complimented on my player skill several times in ESO and various other MMOs, I have to assume that the skill part is not the reason, but rather my builds. As I play pretty efficient builds, but sacrifice that last little bit to have a character that has a lot of flavor and style, that means my characters are 80% the "BiS/Meta" builds.

Further, since I group with a ton of people, and most of them have the exact same problem? Pretty sure, that means that you are misinformed in some way, probably by a disconnect. But, that's not trying to be insulting, it happens in every game I play, I watch people get past that hurdle, whatever it is for that game, and as they continue to progress upwards, the rest of the playerbase continues to have difficulties... and at some point, the now-elite player starts looking back, wondering why people have ANY difficulties in the game, with any content, and forget that they ever were there, too. Or, worse, they are the type that is perfectly fine playing the BiS/Meta, and it honestly makes no sense why anyone else would rebel against it, or want to play something else, unless they just WANT to not do the best in the game.

In any case, from everyone I know in the game, who honestly do TRY to do the best, etc, just refuse to play the BiS builds, and instead want to play what they consider fun, but still very efficient (just not perfect efficiency), you are wrong, and only seeing things from the other side of that speed-bump in the game that I pointed out, where you are in the group who can do that 10-15%, and somehow not seeing that the 85% or so cannot get past it.

I get what you are trying to say. And I agree. Whilst 5% of population are working to stay over 40k DPS the majority can't break 20k even with the same setup. As weaving / timing skill is a big part of DPS.

HOWEVER. When it comes to Maelstrom I think you are wrong. It's skill and mechanics in there. Situational awareness and knowing your build has defence, heals and burst / offence.

Before the dummy came out I was regularly doing Maelstrom around the hour mark. My mates told me I was a great player, epic damage. That I was OP. As it turns out I was doing 15/16k DPS. Pretty terrible, but was managing Maelstrom fine as had learnt it.

So whilst I agree with you setup makes a different on score runs in there it doesn't matter much for getting it completed.

Out of interest where are you getting stuck? Happy to help

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Its because only a few people like Alcast actually make new builds...everyone else just copies and pastes.

Alcast really does a lot for the community.

^ the answer to your question is right there tho huh. With streamers 'setting' Meta all the time. Why should people.bother theory crafting. That's the issue n

If you want meta why muck around. Let a streamer do it and copy. Done. Without then we would ALL be theory crafting.

So I think your thread / comments are a contradiction.