Remember the Grind

DMuehlhausen

Phage wrote: »

The jewelry craft grind is the absolute of the absolute. The big one. The ultimate.

It'll take you ages to research, and even longer to get the mats required to craft and improve just one full set.

For myself, I've calculated a minimum of three months of grind for what I need. I've prepared a stock of aspirin.

To remind you:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/411091/jewelry-crafting-get-ready-for-the-worst-grind-in-esos-history/p1

In honor of those who we've lost, and will probably lose. We will never forget your memory.

One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes,
One hundred twenty-nine thousand,
Grinding for months
One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes
How do you measure, measure this grind?
In research, in farm routes, in sprinting
In stealing of nodes
In iridium, in zircon, in chromium, in terne
In one hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes
This grind is awful, why grind it at all?
How about seams? How about dust?
How about plates? Measure in plates
Grinding for grains
Grinding for plates
One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes
One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Minutes to waste
One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes
How do you measure the grind
Of a ring or a neck?
In seams that we looted
Or in trials that we cleared
In dust that we refined
Or the stuff we deconned
It's time now to remember
Though the grind never ends
Let's commisserate
Remember the months in the grind of jewelry
Remember the grind
(ZOS, we hate you, we hate you)
Remember the grains
(Ten times the grind)
Remember the seams
(Sixteen thousand dust per piece)
Grinding for months
Grinding for jewels

So 3 months..ok so it's the same grind if not less than what Blacksmithing was. Seeing as how the last 3 traits you could learn took about 3 months anyway...Yeah I get you can shorten that, but people weren't really doing that at launch. People were worried about skill points for actual skills. Even with the abitlity to train 3 traits at a time your still like 2.5 months if you never miss a day or two when one ends..

So yeah this really doesn't seem like a sky is falling issue. It seems more like Whine whine I can't max my JC the day the game goes live wah wah.

Darkestnght

Good things come to those that wait.

For me it will not be that much of a grind at all. I am use to this and have plenty of thing to do while waiting and farming.

AlienatedGoat

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

show previous quotes

Phage wrote: »

The jewelry craft grind is the absolute of the absolute. The big one. The ultimate.

It'll take you ages to research, and even longer to get the mats required to craft and improve just one full set.

For myself, I've calculated a minimum of three months of grind for what I need. I've prepared a stock of aspirin.

To remind you:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/411091/jewelry-crafting-get-ready-for-the-worst-grind-in-esos-history/p1

In honor of those who we've lost, and will probably lose. We will never forget your memory.

One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes,
One hundred twenty-nine thousand,
Grinding for months
One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes
How do you measure, measure this grind?
In research, in farm routes, in sprinting
In stealing of nodes
In iridium, in zircon, in chromium, in terne
In one hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes
This grind is awful, why grind it at all?
How about seams? How about dust?
How about plates? Measure in plates
Grinding for grains
Grinding for plates
One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes
One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Minutes to waste
One hundred twenty-nine thousand
Six hundred minutes
How do you measure the grind
Of a ring or a neck?
In seams that we looted
Or in trials that we cleared
In dust that we refined
Or the stuff we deconned
It's time now to remember
Though the grind never ends
Let's commisserate
Remember the months in the grind of jewelry
Remember the grind
(ZOS, we hate you, we hate you)
Remember the grains
(Ten times the grind)
Remember the seams
(Sixteen thousand dust per piece)
Grinding for months
Grinding for jewels

So 3 months..ok so it's the same grind if not less than what Blacksmithing was. Seeing as how the last 3 traits you could learn took about 3 months anyway...Yeah I get you can shorten that, but people weren't really doing that at launch. People were worried about skill points for actual skills. Even with the abitlity to train 3 traits at a time your still like 2.5 months if you never miss a day or two when one ends..

So yeah this really doesn't seem like a sky is falling issue. It seems more like Whine whine I can't max my JC the day the game goes live wah wah.

Ha, yeah okay, keep thinking that. What you're saying is nonsense - take a look at the link in my OP to see the full extent of the materials grind before you post again.

The time to learn the traits is very small potatoes compared to the time to grind out mats, especially improvement mats.

My needs are small. I mostly just want one gold crafted set. A minimum of 3 months grind for that.

I'd hate to be anyone who wants more from jewelry crafting.

They'll be at it all god-damned year.

AlienatedGoat

Darkestnght wrote: »

Good things come to those that wait.

For me it will not be that much of a grind at all. I am use to this and have plenty of thing to do while waiting and farming.

You're missing the point here.

You're used to the regular grind of regular nodes, regular crafting, regular trials runs.

The catch here? Jewelry crafting is TEN TIMES that.

Trials runs for gold pieces count for 1/10th of one mat, eight of which are needed to improve one piece. That's right. 80 trials runs for one gold piece.

Seams are far more rare than your regular nodes. Good luck farming those when everyone else and their dog is doing it too. Even if you find some seams, you'll need 16,000 dust to get enough improvement mats from refining for one gold ring. And people thought the grind for BA motifs last year was bad.

Your regular crafting grind? Ha. This is nothing like that. At all. You better have plenty to do, because you'll be waiting and farming with no end in sight.

jedtb16_ESO

grind?

that's killing the same mobs over and over for 12 hours for 1% of the xp for a level.

farming is farming.... it's not grind.

research times? click a button and go do something else, it's not like you have to stand there and wait for it to complete.

stop whining and play the game.

AlienatedGoat

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

grind?

that's killing the same mobs over and over for 12 hours for 1% of the xp for a level.

farming is farming.... it's not grind.

research times? click a button and go do something else, it's not like you have to stand there and wait for it to complete.

stop whining and play the game.

Read my OP again and follow the link in it and read that too.

It's a grind, your semantics argument isn't a real argument.

Claudman

@jedtb16_ESO
Tell that to Warframe.

jedtb16_ESO

Phage wrote: »

show previous quotes

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

grind?

that's killing the same mobs over and over for 12 hours for 1% of the xp for a level.

farming is farming.... it's not grind.

research times? click a button and go do something else, it's not like you have to stand there and wait for it to complete.

stop whining and play the game.

Read my OP again and follow the link in it and read that too.

It's a grind, your semantics argument isn't a real argument.

yeah, whatever... the link is to a thread i already read.

fact is you are using 'grind' to mean anything that requires a bit of effort and time.

stop whining and play the game.

AlienatedGoat

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Phage wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

grind?

that's killing the same mobs over and over for 12 hours for 1% of the xp for a level.

farming is farming.... it's not grind.

research times? click a button and go do something else, it's not like you have to stand there and wait for it to complete.

stop whining and play the game.

Read my OP again and follow the link in it and read that too.

It's a grind, your semantics argument isn't a real argument.

yeah, whatever... the link is to a thread i already read.

fact is you are using 'grind' to mean anything that requires a bit of effort and time.

stop whining and play the game.

Putting this down as "whining" is just a way to belittle and marginalize a legitimate argument, without making a legitimate counterpoint of your own. It's what an ignorant person does when they have nothing of substance to add to a discussion.

If you read the thread, then you would know that there is more than just a bit of effort and time. It's ten times the effort put into any other crafting line. That is a grind.

Go ahead, argue your semantics. Anyone with a brain can tell its an empty argument.

Synnastix

Phage wrote: »

show previous quotes

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

grind?

that's killing the same mobs over and over for 12 hours for 1% of the xp for a level.

farming is farming.... it's not grind.

research times? click a button and go do something else, it's not like you have to stand there and wait for it to complete.

stop whining and play the game.

Read my OP again and follow the link in it and read that too.

It's a grind, your semantics argument isn't a real argument.

yeah, whatever... the link is to a thread i already read.

fact is you are using 'grind' to mean anything that requires a bit of effort and time.

stop whining and play the game.

Putting this down as "whining" is just a way to belittle and marginalize a legitimate argument, without making a legitimate counterpoint of your own. It's what an ignorant person does when they have nothing of substance to add to a discussion.

If you read the thread, then you would know that there is more than just a bit of effort and time. It's ten times the effort put into any other crafting line. That is a grind.

Go ahead, argue your semantics. Anyone with a brain can tell its an empty argument.

I’m going to side with Jed here and I read that thread too. If you want to “grind” it out, just buy the stuff you need and grind it. If you want to farm then go farming. If you just want to have everything easy then go play a single player and /set yourself up. I’ve been playing since beta and appreciate the effort it took to get my master angler title and purple dye, so I’m ok with not everyone being able to get at this in a quick manner.

If you do grind it out, you should be able to make a tidy profit off of it. If you don’t, you can make a profit selling crap to people who do. The rest of us will let it come over time and no matter which way you choose, just enjoy the rest of the game.

You could ask yourself this - is it going to be worth it for you to skill up and make your own or just let someone else do it and buy the finished product?

AlienatedGoat

jonswowgothackedub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Phage wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

grind?

that's killing the same mobs over and over for 12 hours for 1% of the xp for a level.

farming is farming.... it's not grind.

research times? click a button and go do something else, it's not like you have to stand there and wait for it to complete.

stop whining and play the game.

Read my OP again and follow the link in it and read that too.

It's a grind, your semantics argument isn't a real argument.

yeah, whatever... the link is to a thread i already read.

fact is you are using 'grind' to mean anything that requires a bit of effort and time.

stop whining and play the game.

Putting this down as "whining" is just a way to belittle and marginalize a legitimate argument, without making a legitimate counterpoint of your own. It's what an ignorant person does when they have nothing of substance to add to a discussion.

If you read the thread, then you would know that there is more than just a bit of effort and time. It's ten times the effort put into any other crafting line. That is a grind.

Go ahead, argue your semantics. Anyone with a brain can tell its an empty argument.

I’m going to side with Jed here and I read that thread too. If you want to “grind” it out, just buy the stuff you need and grind it. If you want to farm then go farming. If you just want to have everything easy then go play a single player and /set yourself up. I’ve been playing since beta and appreciate the effort it took to get my master angler title and purple dye, so I’m ok with not everyone being able to get at this in a quick manner.

If you do grind it out, you should be able to make a tidy profit off of it. If you don’t, you can make a profit selling crap to people who do. The rest of us will let it come over time and no matter which way you choose, just enjoy the rest of the game.

You could ask yourself this - is it going to be worth it for you to skill up and make your own or just let someone else do it and buy the finished product?

The price for either is going to be ridiculous. Right now, alloys are the most expensive temper, about 7-8k on PC-NA. I fully expect gold plates to be 10x the price of alloys if they're going to be 10x as rare as an alloy. We're looking at about 70-80k PER PLATE. Keep in mind, you still need 8 of those to improve to gold. Thats 560K-640K in gold mats for one gold jewelry piece.

Not talking about launch inflation either. This is just based off of the relative rarity of gold grains compared to alloys, and needing 10 of them to make 1 gold plate.

With that price, buying crafted gold jewels will be far more expensive than buying drop set gold jewels from the golden vendor or from guild stores.

So yeah, I'd rather make them myself. I don't have a million and a half gold to blow on one gold jewelry set.

Recremen

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm 99% certain I'll get jewelry crafting accomplished before I hit Grand Overlord. 64 million AP is quite the grind.

I got GO and I only PvP twice a week, combined 6-8 hours. Take advantage of the double AP event as much as you can and you've got it!!

zyk

I don't mind grinds if the underlying systems are interesting and robust. For example, Spellcrafting would have the potential to be such.

But Jewellery doesn't tick either box. It seems to me that ZOS felt the need to introduce a new grind somewhere and decided arbitrarily to place it in this uninteresting system.

I see this driving even more PVP focused players away from the game.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm 99% certain I'll get jewelry crafting accomplished before I hit Grand Overlord. 64 million AP is quite the grind.

That's a vanity grind. It doesn't impact a player's ability to be competitive. Personally, after all Alliance War abilities and passives are obtained, further Alliance Ranks are irrelevant.

MLGProPlayer

The gear grind before transmutation was FAR longer.

It took, on average, 500+ vMA runs, to get your sharpened weapons.

Assuming an average run is 45 minutes, that's 375 hours. And that's just vMA. You still needed to grind set pieces from dungeons and trials too.

AlienatedGoat

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The gear grind before transmutation was FAR longer.

It took, on average, 500+ vMA runs, to get your divines weapons.

Assuming an average run is 45 minutes, that's 375 hours. And that's just vMA. You still needed to grind set pieces from dungeons and trials too.

Uh, what divines weapons?

Also, the grind for a 3 pc gold set is looking to be far longer than 375 hours. Much longer.

Plus, vMA was just RNG. You could get your light, inferno whatever in sharp in less than 500 runs.

Rain_Greyraven

After playing BDO for a couple months

There is no grind.

Karivaa

Let’s remember the grind to get to Vet 16 and have a crafter and have mats when the game was first released. Not to mention the grind to get to assault and support 10 and also do undaunted and the mages guild. The game is much easier now!

Mettaricana

Ive got eyes aet on other games soon zos is wasting my patience woth each dlc

AlienatedGoat

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

After playing BDO for a couple months

There is no grind.

I'll agree that BDO is grindy as hell.

I've got enough grind here without subjecting myself to the grindhell that is Korean MMOs.

AlienatedGoat

Karivaa wrote: »

Let’s remember the grind to get to Vet 16 and have a crafter and have mats when the game was first released. Not to mention the grind to get to assault and support 10 and also do undaunted and the mages guild. The game is much easier now!

Eh, most of that is the same as its always been. The only things that have really changed are Vet to CP (which lets be honest, it's just a different grind), and the addition of research scrolls (again, different grind - you're spending time on getting vouchers for scrolls).

Here's the thing though: I'm not opposed to grind. If I hated grind, I wouldn't play MMOs, or RPGs in general. What I'm opposed to is ZOS's idea of putting a grind within a grind within a grind.

In this case you're farming rare seams to get dust, refining dust through RNG to get grains, refining grains to get plates, then using those plates to improve your stuff. Same with the trait stones, you're getting pulverized pieces of those and putting them together as well. They put unnecessary steps in there specifically to extend the grind artificially, on top of making seams many times more rare than regular nodes.

I have no issue with ZOS trying to prevent players from getting gold jewelry right at launch, honestly. But they could've come up with a better way than artificially extending materials grind by a factor of ten. Because that doesn't just affect launch, it affects the system for good. We're now stuck with a system that requires ten times the mats of anything else.

It's like the system designers at ZOS were taking cues from those Korean MMOs to make jewelry crafting as long of a grind as possible.

The only thing missing here is them putting mats up on the crown store, and their path to the dark side will be complete.

AEAltadoonPadhome

Just see it this way: How would you react if they suddenly made gold weapons cost 80 tempering alloys instead of 8?
Well, that is what it is going to be like. Personally I think any sensible person would just sell their gold mats, crafting gold jewelry is only something for people who run 5 trade guilds and have 100 mil banked. I have never owned 240 tempers in my lifetime (though I did earn more than that in my ESO career), and if you have them you probably dont wanna spend them on upgrading your jewelry which is no longer BiS by the time you finally have the mats.

That's also my main problem with it: gear gets outdated faster than you can farm the mats (unless you farm for hours and hours each week).

I'd say: don't farm these grains. It is a waste of time. ZoS will probably revert this change anyway somewhere in the future and even if they dont just use your (retraited) gold jewelry from the golden vendor or from vet trials, or just use purples.

adriant1978

klowdy1 wrote: »

show previous quotes

DanteYoda wrote: »

Whats wrong with your old rings and amulets.. The content hasn't changed last i looked.

Instant gratification. People want things immediately. I'm in no rush to burn through it, it just gives me a reason to play ESO as opposed to any other game I play with my limited time.

Please explain how wanting jewellery crafting to work exactly the same as the base game skill lines is a desire for "instant gratification".

AlienatedGoat

AEAltadoonPadhome wrote: »

Just see it this way: How would you react if they suddenly made gold weapons cost 80 tempering alloys instead of 8?
Well, that is what it is going to be like. Personally I think any sensible person would just sell their gold mats, crafting gold jewelry is only something for people who run 5 trade guilds and have 100 mil banked. I have never owned 240 tempers in my lifetime (though I did earn more than that in my ESO career), and if you have them you probably dont wanna spend them on upgrading your jewelry which is no longer BiS by the time you finally have the mats.

That's also my main problem with it: gear gets outdated faster than you can farm the mats (unless you farm for hours and hours each week).

I'd say: don't farm these grains. It is a waste of time. ZoS will probably revert this change anyway somewhere in the future and even if they dont just use your (retraited) gold jewelry from the golden vendor or from vet trials, or just use purples.

You've made some good points here. I sincerely hope they change the 10x mats requirement to something more sensible.

MLGProPlayer

Phage wrote: »

show previous quotes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The gear grind before transmutation was FAR longer.

It took, on average, 500+ vMA runs, to get your divines weapons.

Assuming an average run is 45 minutes, that's 375 hours. And that's just vMA. You still needed to grind set pieces from dungeons and trials too.

Uh, what divines weapons?

Also, the grind for a 3 pc gold set is looking to be far longer than 375 hours. Much longer.

Plus, vMA was just RNG. You could get your light, inferno whatever in sharp in less than 500 runs.

Meant sharpened, not divines. There were folks who ran vMA over 1000 times and never got their weapon. Sure a few lucky souls got their weapons on their first run, but the vast majority of people didn't.

With jewllery crafting, you know how much gold you need to buy all your upgrade mats and how long it will take to acquire it. It certainly won't take 400 hours, and there will be no surprises.

By next year, when the cost of the upgrade mats is in line with everything else on the market, you'll be able to gold out a piece of jewellery after just a few hours of gold farming.

Let's assume the cost of an upgrade mat drops to 7k by next year (the current price of a temper). You need 80 of these to upgrade one ring. That's 560k gold. I made that much in one day this weekend (I can can even provide a screenshot of my time stamped MM sales for the day).

Even if it costs a million gold to upgrade a ring, that's just a few days of farming and selling (10-20 hours).

The jewellery crafting situation is playing out a lot like the furniture craze did when housing came out. People were crying 24/7 that it would cost millions of gold to decorate your house. Fast forward a few weeks after launch when prices on mats, recipes, and finished furniture nornalized and you could decorate an entire manor for 500k. I just bought a Redoran canopy bed for my new Hew's Bane house for 3k (these things sold for 50k when they first hit guild stores last year).

I'll give you all my in-game gold if the jewllery crafting market somehow defies the laws of economics and doesn't stabilise.

AlienatedGoat

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

show previous quotes

Phage wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The gear grind before transmutation was FAR longer.

It took, on average, 500+ vMA runs, to get your divines weapons.

Assuming an average run is 45 minutes, that's 375 hours. And that's just vMA. You still needed to grind set pieces from dungeons and trials too.

Uh, what divines weapons?

Also, the grind for a 3 pc gold set is looking to be far longer than 375 hours. Much longer.

Plus, vMA was just RNG. You could get your light, inferno whatever in sharp in less than 500 runs.

Meant sharpened, not divines. There were folks who ran vMA over 1000 times and never got their weapon. Sure a few lucky souls got their weapons on their first run, but the vast majority of people didn't.

With jewllery crafting, you know how much gold you need to buy all your uograde mats and how long it will take to acquire it. It certainly won't take 400 hours, and there will be no surprises.

By next year, when the cost lf the upgrade mats is in line with everything else in the game, you'll be able to gold out a piece of jewllery after just a few hours of gold farming.

We can hope. I'm still hoping that maybe when this gets to live ZOS adjusts the system some more.

Linaleah

god damn it i just got that song out of my head the other day, and now its stuck again..... nicely written though, OP

Mannix1958

I'm torn on the actual issue..BUT I gave you awesome for the song lyrics parody...spot on!

witchdoctor

Eh, I actually think they set it correctly. (But, yes, it's going to require an EPIC amount of materials. Jewel Crafting is the Epic Meal Time of ESO).

Here is why: vet trials remain relevant (and in fact are a new source of income) and I think you are comparing the grind to the wrong thing.

My 2 cents follow:

What is it that you actually, most likely, plan on improving? Jewels that don't drop in a trial.

In my opinion, this means jewels like BSW, Ebon, Sanctuary, Worm Cult, Jovuld, SPC, etc, will be the most likely candidates for improvement, over the majority of the playerbase.

The grind then should be compared to how long you would wait for those to appear in the Golden Vendor, and not against how many tempers it takes to improve an armour or weapon drop.

red_emu

Still won't touch it. Too much grind and I have better things to do in life

In other news: Jewellery Crafting Mats coming to crown crates near you

adriant1978

witchdoctor wrote: »

Eh, I actually think they set it correctly. (But, yes, it's going to require an EPIC amount of materials. Jewel Crafting is the Epic Meal Time of ESO).

Here is why: vet trials remain relevant (and in fact are a new source of income) and I think you are comparing the grind to the wrong thing.

So a casual player who wants to craft purple Hunding's or Julianos jewellery gets screwed over so that the vet trials crowd don't feel like their gold rings are losing their exclusivity.