Dragonknight Wings (Last Stand): pseudobuff?

Quantum_V

Hey all,

So with the PTS cycles coming to an end I feel the need to address the changes made to wings. Yes, it's getting repetitive and we've all read the forums enough to know what the general opinion on this change: removing snares in ESO, quite frankly, doesn't mean anything unless some sort of immunity is also granted.

As far as magicka DK goes for PvP, the class is in a very good spot and thus should be tweaked very carefully not to send us to 1.5 era where DKs were walking gods. With that said, when DKs ask for some sort of snare immunity on wings, we compare the viability of this skill to the current ESO reality. Wardens have a skill that costs almost half as much, with a harness magicka effect on it that can literally give you heroism 3 times in a single cast, sustain has become tougher in the past few patches (which I'm happy with) due to nerfs to constitution and removal of cost reduction CP, and every other ability in this game snares you. From there, it doesn't seem unreasonable to add a 2-3 second snare immunity to such a skill that has a considerable cost.

Anyways, I appreciate the changes made to DKs in 4.0.0. I think stamDKs, which have been having a tough time in openworld pvp will very much appreciate these changes aswell.

Thank you,

Quantum


P.S: Please take a close look at this forum thread, there are tons of great feedback: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/407077/pts-update-18-feedback-thread-for-dragonknight-balance/p1

Twohothardware

One of the Reflective Scales morphs needs the snare removal with a brief period of immunity added and the other morph needs to be changed to provide some sort of Magicka regen like Stamina Warden gets out of it's superior Shimmering Shield. StamDK cannot sustain Wings with no cost reduction or regen, it's too expensive of a skill that only lasts a couple seconds against more than one attacker.

Dottzgaming

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey all,

So with the PTS cycles coming to an end I feel the need to address the changes made to wings. Yes, it's getting repetitive and we've all read the forums enough to know what the general opinion on this change: removing snares in ESO, quite frankly, doesn't mean anything unless some sort of immunity is also granted.

As far as magicka DK goes for PvP, the class is in a very good spot and thus should be tweaked very carefully not to send us to 1.5 era where DKs were walking gods. With that said, when DKs ask for some sort of snare immunity on wings, we compare the viability of this skill to the current ESO reality. Wardens have a skill that costs almost half as much, with a harness magicka effect on it that can literally give you heroism 3 times in a single cast, sustain has become tougher in the past few patches (which I'm happy with) due to nerfs to constitution and removal of cost reduction CP, and every other ability in this game snares you. From there, it doesn't seem unreasonable to add a 2-3 second snare immunity to such a skill that has a considerable cost.

Anyways, I appreciate the changes made to DKs in 4.0.0. I think stamDKs, which have been having a tough time in openworld pvp will very much appreciate these changes aswell.

Thank you,

Quantum


P.S: Please take a close look at this forum thread, there are tons of great feedback: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/407077/pts-update-18-feedback-thread-for-dragonknight-balance/p1

Completely agree with all of this. +1

eroticdiscoheat

Please make this happen!

ak_pvp

Honestly, the changes were kind of pants for DK changes altogether. It showed they knew what DK needed, but were too bad to implement them.

PvE heals, some sustain is good, but still a need from before. Igneous is still a need from before (effectively crystal blasted) snare removal currently is useless, and will have to be at least 3s, better so at 4 to justify taking over mist, 2s won't cut it.

Just look at the base ability. It's trash compared to shimmering or cloak. 4 projectiles, 6s. 4k cost. Literally 2x attack+weaves, so 2s and its down. Then compare to how much cloak does in 2s for the same price. So much isn't reflected either, bird should be at least.

4s, 3 projectiles. Per person. Nerf 1v1 troop knights with lower uptime, buff against outnumbered openworld situations where it is broken instantly. Absolute necessity for this to be even nearly comparable with other methods of defense and scaling with number.

Maybe even turn the base into a deflect and the fire scale be the only reflect one, so you choose defense/mobility vs defense/pressure. This of course only to make the other morph worth choosing without buffing it.

sneakymitchell

Agree. Only thing wings are good for is spam snipes (but when someone sneaks you get stunned), light attack range builds with the new empower, and some other range skills beside the destro range skill.

IZZEFlameLash

I agree but there's seems to really no hope as it stands. ZOS seems very much set on that they feel this is as good as DK gets and that they don't want to alter class skills anymore this PTS and only want to have final version now. Maybe next year...

BohnT

@ZOS_Wrobel give us snare immunity for 2-3 seconds on reflective plate.
Right now the skill isn't better than the base morph because you will be snared in the same moment you use the ability.

A skill which only provides snare removal is useless and isn't even worth spending a skill point to unlock the morph

Vaoh

You honestly think, with all of the significantly more pressing class balance-related issues, ZOS will make this change for DKs?

Sorry but the odds of this happening are practically zero.

BohnT

Vaoh wrote: »

You honestly think, with all of the significantly more pressing class balance-related issues, ZOS will make this change for DKs?

Sorry but the odds of this happening are practically zero.

No i don't think we'll see any changes.
But they could atleast revert the change as even the current version of reflective plate is better than what we'll get with the patch and that's ridiculous

Feanor

If you give immunity to DK you’d have to do it for all magicka classes. I wouldn’t implement this via class skills but rather make efficient purge much cheaper and add 2 or 3 seconds of snare immunity to it. There would need to be a cooldown then though.

ak_pvp

Feanor wrote: »

If you give immunity to DK you’d have to do it for all magicka classes. I wouldn’t implement this via class skills but rather make efficient purge much cheaper and add 2 or 3 seconds of snare immunity to it. There would need to be a cooldown then though.

Not specifically, DK being the only class with no escape tool and only mobility tied to a gapcloser, needs it the most, but every class does need some way to deal with snares a bit better, not just slap removal on anything, wheras it fits DKs resistant theme better.

I'd say NB is fine since they have the good change of non tethered shade, and can stop attacks snaring whilst in cloak anyway. Lets not buff further pls.

Sorc could get removal on BoL with a 1s, so that the second streak can be unrooted and they will be away from most instant snaring abilities, also in conjunction with no cost increase on hitting an enemy with streak/BoL, so it can be used as the unsnared travel. I'd buff speed duration on boundless a bit more.

Warden speed is fine, already have built in expedition and the mag version a small purge, also have a decent "house" with AoEs, heal ult, spikes and defile circle.

Templar has purge, to hit snares and the dots that might cause them, I would however buff purge to remove x% of effects, so it has a better chance to remove the snares+causes under pressure.

DeadlyRecluse

Honestly even just 1 second of snare immunity would be pretty cool. Just enough time to get around a corner or whatnot, but not so much that you can maintain immunity uptime.

RoyJade

I think one of the first thing to do is to rework snares far much than Summerset does. Snares shouldn't be so predominant or spammable, and especially they shouldn't stack. The number of skill who add a snare is far too high, they need to be confined to utilities or low damage skill.

But I agree that before this rework (who won't come before long, I'm afraid), a snare purge without any immunity is a bad idea. Wings should get an immunity, and so BoL should (but shorter). Or when a snare is purged gives the player a short immunity, and skills may increase this duration.

Ragnarock41

yeah, I'll definitely appreciate having a crappy forward momentum that costs 3900 magicka. Definitely affordable. Its not like I need magicka to buff up or anything.

Ragnarock41

Feanor wrote: »

If you give immunity to DK you’d have to do it for all magicka classes..

And why is that? For what reason?

Quantum_V

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

yeah, I'll definitely appreciate having a crappy forward momentum that costs 3900 magicka. Definitely affordable. Its not like I need magicka to buff up or anything.

We can’t and shouldn’t have everything. You’ve got forward momentum, supposing you’re stamdk. You’re good to go.

Ragnarock41

Quantum_V wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

yeah, I'll definitely appreciate having a crappy forward momentum that costs 3900 magicka. Definitely affordable. Its not like I need magicka to buff up or anything.

We can’t and shouldn’t have everything. You’ve got forward momentum, supposing you’re stamdk. You’re good to go.

Oh yeah, I forgot I had like 28 stamina morphs for my class. My bad.

Look buddy, what I'm trying to say here is very simple. Stamina DK does not give a damn about having a second of immunity on wings. We can't really afford wings either way. Lets just not pretend this is a stamDk buff. Its not.

If you want your mDK wings buffed, then say it clearly.

ak_pvp

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

yeah, I'll definitely appreciate having a crappy forward momentum that costs 3900 magicka. Definitely affordable. Its not like I need magicka to buff up or anything.

You get a crappy FM that also has a mild reflect function and allows you to slot a burst heal. I think you'd probably appreciate it. Assuming we don't get ZOS'd and end up with 2s and the reflect function remain pathetic.

Ragnarock41

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

yeah, I'll definitely appreciate having a crappy forward momentum that costs 3900 magicka. Definitely affordable. Its not like I need magicka to buff up or anything.

You get a crappy FM that also has a mild reflect function and allows you to slot a burst heal. I think you'd probably appreciate it. Assuming we don't get ZOS'd and end up with 2s and the reflect function remain pathetic.

my magicka bar is around 8k in no-cp, and 1 or 2k more in cp campaign(this is with fury+seventh legion. Its as meta as stamDK gets.)

just simply buffing myself up costs me 2700+4050=6750 magicka. Each igneous cast costs 4050 magicka, and each volatile cast costs 2700, and lets be honest, I'm going to spam volatile a lot against nightblades, and I'm also going to spam igneous as much as I can, in general.(gotta have that sweet 20k vigor tooltip, otherwise why even play a stamDk?)

There is absolutely no way for me to afford wings without giving up completely on igneous (aka major mending), which is the class defining buff for stamDK.

As I said, I would support snare immunity , but this is not a stamDK buff. Lets not lie to each other now. good StamDKs prefer using absorb magic over wings, and there is a pretty good reason for it. Wings will never be a tool for stamDk because magDks can abuse it, we all realize that. So please, stop using the poor state of stamDK to get your mDk buffed.

ak_pvp

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

yeah, I'll definitely appreciate having a crappy forward momentum that costs 3900 magicka. Definitely affordable. Its not like I need magicka to buff up or anything.

You get a crappy FM that also has a mild reflect function and allows you to slot a burst heal. I think you'd probably appreciate it. Assuming we don't get ZOS'd and end up with 2s and the reflect function remain pathetic.

my magicka bar is around 8k in no-cp, and 1 or 2k more in cp campaign(this is with fury+seventh legion. Its as meta as stamDK gets.)

just simply buffing myself up costs me 2700+4050=6750 magicka. Each igneous cast costs 4050 magicka, and each volatile cast costs 2700, and lets be honest, I'm going to spam volatile a lot against nightblades, and I'm also going to spam igneous as much as I can, in general.

There is absolutely no way for me to afford wings without giving up completely on igneous (aka major mending), which is the class defining buff for stamDK.

As I said, I would support snare immunity , but this is not a stamDK buff. Lets not lie to each other now. good StamDKs prefer using absorb magic over wings, and there is a pretty good reason for it. Wings will never be a tool for stamDk because magDks can abuse it, we all realize that. So please, stop using the poor state of stamDK to get your mDk buffed.

It'd definitely be a better buff for a MagDK, but I would absolutely use it for a stamDK. I run trifood, since Stam sustain on a DK isn't too taxing unless running a bash build, even though its not old battle roar and hh.

I can't quite say I like fragmented all too much, in the end, it's less than 20% buff per tick to vigor when diminishing is accounted for, and defile sucks, overwriting the end heal. I'd rather pump the extra mag into being hit less and getting out of roots and snares when important. Then save Stam for burst heals.

Personally thinking of running an argonian clever alch build with argonian, so that is 400 extra mag and Stam regen, and use fossilise for helping hands Instead of igneous spam, much cheaper. Wings would be much more sustainable with that build.

Ragnarock41

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

yeah, I'll definitely appreciate having a crappy forward momentum that costs 3900 magicka. Definitely affordable. Its not like I need magicka to buff up or anything.

You get a crappy FM that also has a mild reflect function and allows you to slot a burst heal. I think you'd probably appreciate it. Assuming we don't get ZOS'd and end up with 2s and the reflect function remain pathetic.

my magicka bar is around 8k in no-cp, and 1 or 2k more in cp campaign(this is with fury+seventh legion. Its as meta as stamDK gets.)

just simply buffing myself up costs me 2700+4050=6750 magicka. Each igneous cast costs 4050 magicka, and each volatile cast costs 2700, and lets be honest, I'm going to spam volatile a lot against nightblades, and I'm also going to spam igneous as much as I can, in general.

There is absolutely no way for me to afford wings without giving up completely on igneous (aka major mending), which is the class defining buff for stamDK.

As I said, I would support snare immunity , but this is not a stamDK buff. Lets not lie to each other now. good StamDKs prefer using absorb magic over wings, and there is a pretty good reason for it. Wings will never be a tool for stamDk because magDks can abuse it, we all realize that. So please, stop using the poor state of stamDK to get your mDk buffed.

It'd definitely be a better buff for a MagDK, but I would absolutely use it for a stamDK. I run trifood, since Stam sustain on a DK isn't too taxing unless running a bash build, even though its not old battle roar and hh.

I can't quite say I like fragmented all too much, in the end, it's less than 20% buff per tick to vigor when diminishing is accounted for, and defile sucks, overwriting the end heal. I'd rather pump the extra mag into being hit less and getting out of roots and snares when important. Then save Stam for burst heals.

Personally thinking of running an argonian clever alch build with argonian, so that is 400 extra mag and Stam regen, and use fossilise for helping hands Instead of igneous spam, much cheaper. Wings would be much more sustainable with that build.

I guess for an argonian potion build it makes sense. Though the infused trait is a little bit broken at the moment.

Savos_Saren

Feanor wrote: »

If you give immunity to DK you’d have to do it for all magicka classes.

@Feanor
With that mentality- someone owes mDKs an execute. Since literally ALL classes have an execute available to them (which benefits from their respective resource pool)... except the mDK.

Feanor

The reason behind giving a very short snare immunity to all magicka classes is that all magicka classes suffer from constant roots and snares. I agree DK has it worst in that regard because their class access to Major Expedition - which isn’t a true counter to snares anyway - is tied to chains.

Dealing with snares isn’t great on all other magicka classes either though. Templar can purge it, but the cost is prohibitive, NB can outkite it with Shade and Cloak, and Sorc can get lucky with Streak and LoS. Warden? Blue Betty purge lottery.

I’d advocate for doing this very warily though. The bad mobility is the only thing stopping mDK from being an excellent open world choice as well as the top spec in 1v1, and NB would have to be monitored closely as well if Concealed Weapon, Cloak, Shade and snare immunity aren’t simply too much.

As for @Ragnarock41 beloved stamDK I fear snare immunity isn’t the only thing needed to alleviate the class issues. But I’m no stamDK adept.

@Savos_Saren

Personally I’d have no issue with giving DK a class execute. It’s just that I can understand the original design that an execute is redundant because of the very high continuous DoT pressure. Whether that reasoning is still valid in a game that has changed very much is a question the Devs need to answer.

Ragnarock41

Feanor wrote: »

The reason behind giving a very short snare immunity to all magicka classes is that all magicka classes suffer from constant roots and snares. I agree DK has it worst in that regard because their class access to Major Expedition - which isn’t a true counter to snares anyway - is tied to chains.

Dealing with snares isn’t great on all other magicka classes either though. Templar can purge it, but the cost is prohibitive, NB can outkite it with Shade and Cloak, and Sorc can get lucky with Streak and LoS. Warden? Blue Betty purge lottery.

I’d advocate for doing this very warily though. The bad mobility is the only thing stopping mDK from being an excellent open world choice as well as the top spec in 1v1, and NB would have to be monitored closely as well if Concealed Weapon, Cloak, Shade and snare immunity aren’t simply too much.

As for @Ragnarock41 beloved stamDK I fear snare immunity isn’t the only thing needed to alleviate the class issues. But I’m no stamDK adept.

@Savos_Saren

Personally I’d have no issue with giving DK a class execute. It’s just that I can understand the original design that an execute is redundant because of the very high continuous DoT pressure. Whether that reasoning is still valid in a game that has changed very much is a question the Devs need to answer.

Wings can not be optimized for stamDks, because if you make it too cheap or too cost effective, then magDks will become too strong with it. But if its left as it is, then stamDKs have no use for it , due to the high cost and very niche use of it.

As for what stamDK needs, just like stamplar, it needs a full rework at this point. ''hold your ground'' or ''this is my house'' themes work for magDk and magplar, but doesn't work so well for the stamina variants of these classes.

Solariken

I agree. However Dk doesn't live in a vacuum and it's important to recognize that the snare purge and your proposed immunity window devalues the Templar purge.

Should ZOS consider your buff they should also grant the exact same dedicated snare purge + immunity to Templar Ritual. And then the skill should purge 5 effects after all roots/snares have been wiped.

Feanor

@Ragnarock41

I‘m a bit torn on stamDK. I have a guildmate who even now just dominates on his stamDK. I’m pretty sure though that’s more the player behind the class than the class itself. I agree „stand your ground“ as design philosophy doesn’t fit in a game that has shifted to mobility being key for everything, even in PvE.

Ragnarock41

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

I‘m a bit torn on stamDK. I have a guildmate who even now just dominates on his stamDK. I’m pretty sure though that’s more the player behind the class than the class itself. I agree „stand your ground“ as design philosophy doesn’t fit in a game that has shifted to mobility being key for everything, even in PvE.

Actually decent stamDks on sotha sil is probably less than 10 in PC EU, considering all factions.

AD has EV(toxic boi but probably the most known AD sDk), EP has Cursa.(probably the best duelist out of all the names I listed,plays all classes but is a beast on stamDk) and well, DC I think has Crescent and Victimize, or so I heard from my friends.

And all the those names I listed thinks the class has some issues at the moment. Especially in open world play. Though crescent is on a whole different skill level so he doesnt give a damn.

BohnT

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

I‘m a bit torn on stamDK. I have a guildmate who even now just dominates on his stamDK. I’m pretty sure though that’s more the player behind the class than the class itself. I agree „stand your ground“ as design philosophy doesn’t fit in a game that has shifted to mobility being key for everything, even in PvE.

Actually decent stamDks on sotha sil is probably less than 10 in PC EU, considering all factions.

AD has EV(toxic boi but probably the most known AD sDk), EP has Cursa.(probably the best out of all the names I listed,plays all classes but is a beast on stamDk) and well, DC I think has Victimize, or so I heard from my friends.

And all the three names I listed thinks the class has some issues at the moment. Especially in open world play.

There are less than 10 stamdks on all of PC EU

Ragnarock41

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

I‘m a bit torn on stamDK. I have a guildmate who even now just dominates on his stamDK. I’m pretty sure though that’s more the player behind the class than the class itself. I agree „stand your ground“ as design philosophy doesn’t fit in a game that has shifted to mobility being key for everything, even in PvE.

Actually decent stamDks on sotha sil is probably less than 10 in PC EU, considering all factions.

AD has EV(toxic boi but probably the most known AD sDk), EP has Cursa.(probably the best out of all the names I listed,plays all classes but is a beast on stamDk) and well, DC I think has Victimize, or so I heard from my friends.

And all the three names I listed thinks the class has some issues at the moment. Especially in open world play.

There are less than 10 stamdks on all of PC EU

Lots of pve rerolls who come by to unlock vigor-caltrops, and also lots of skyrim wannabees who want to be ''dragonborn'' , but instead make a nord stamDk and join an EP zerg in sotha.

There is definitely more than 10 that play sDk in there, but if we count the half decent folk, even if I include noobs like myself, its really not over 10 probably.

BohnT

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Ragnarock41

I‘m a bit torn on stamDK. I have a guildmate who even now just dominates on his stamDK. I’m pretty sure though that’s more the player behind the class than the class itself. I agree „stand your ground“ as design philosophy doesn’t fit in a game that has shifted to mobility being key for everything, even in PvE.

Actually decent stamDks on sotha sil is probably less than 10 in PC EU, considering all factions.

AD has EV(toxic boi but probably the most known AD sDk), EP has Cursa.(probably the best out of all the names I listed,plays all classes but is a beast on stamDk) and well, DC I think has Victimize, or so I heard from my friends.

And all the three names I listed thinks the class has some issues at the moment. Especially in open world play.

There are less than 10 stamdks on all of PC EU

Lots of pve rerolls who come by to unlock vigor-caltrops, and also lots of skyrim wannabees who want to be ''dragonborn'' , but instead make a nord stamDk and join an EP zerg in sotha.

There is definitely more than 10 that play sDk in there, but if we count the half decent folk, even if I include noobs like myself, its really not over 10 probably.

Well we're not taking trash into account for Balance discussions or stamnbs would be in Need for many buffs xD