Non-tanks who taunt in dungeons: solutions?

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

If for whatever reason you are not happy with the group composition vote kick. If failed, be coherent and leave.

Merlin13KAGL

Aerithone wrote: »

theslynx wrote: »

pulling Sellistrix into the water

But she should be put in water to prevent shielding.xD

Except I suspect OP means she was pulled into the water entirely too far from the group. Plus, he was probably standing in the water with her.

In either case, it shouldn't ever get to the end boss this way. Let it take care of itself the first time. Correct it once in chat (and don't ask, tell. It's not intended to be a friendly suggestion.) If it happens again, successfully kick, or leave.

Bajatar wrote: »

Ask them to stop. If you can figure out who it is address them directly. Maybe throw in a hint that ice staves taunt because that's usually the issue. Works better than a generic "stop taunting". I guess most people who taunt don't know they do or have no idea it causes immunity (which is an odd concept anyway).

@Bajatar

• Puncture: Thrust your weapon with disciplined precision at an enemy, dealing 3380 Physical Damage and taunting them to attack you for 15 seconds.
• Inner Fire: Ignite the fires of hate in an enemy's heart, dealing 2112 Magic Damage and taunting them to attack you for 15 seconds.
• Tri Focus: Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds

Calling *** here, as it's right there in the tooltips, and the actual term is used.

I'd expect someone to not know the term 'Tank' before I'd expect them to not know the term taunt.

And taunt immunity makes perfect sense - it's a non-issue if one person is in charge of the fight. If multiple people are trying to direct traffic, why wouldn't the boss go "Screw all of you! I'm going to attack whoever I like?"

Blood_again

My steps in veteran:
- ask don't taunt the boss
- if ignored, votekick (happened once, was approved by group in a second)
If player doesn't know what is taunt or which taunt methods exist or how to handle with it, then s/he should learn more in normals. Vet is a bit early for her/him.

In normal I just try to teach in various way.
- tell about taunting and the skill, which was used by the player now
- kindly ask don't use it on boss, if s/he is not tank
- ask hold the boss on place if taunted, so dps could make their work fine
- if ignored, just make my 2k dps and handle the adds. Getting the boss aggro is teaching player too
- retaunt immediately if boss goes on other player. Others shouldn't pay much for one player incompetence
- agree if other player vote to kick the taunter. It's ok to let the player learn more, but I won't protect her/him if others want the smooth dungeon run.

BTW my 2k dps was mostly 15-20% of summary in such situation yesterday >.<
There was healer with ice staff and 7.5k group dps on last in normal Blackheart

MerlinPendragon

Try to explain thru that.

If that fails or if they get hostile, vote to kick.

If that fails, let them get crushed by the boss a couple times.

Otherwise, leave. Fake tanks and aggro grabbers are my two biggest pet peeves about PUGing

Rungar

your doing it all wrong. if anyone feels like taunting i let them have at it.

they figure it out eventually and it is quite the spectacle to watch!

Biro123

Just don't rezz them?

VaranisArano

The first time I see it, I politely ask in group chat if they are aware that skill is a taunt.

Most of them aren't. Its usually ice staff users who didn't think about the trifocus passive, though I did once have a Puncture user. Most of them don't want boss aggro and are happy to have it explained why the boss keeps focusing on them.

If they keep doing it though? "You taunt it, you tank it."

GimpyPorcupine

Ran into this a couple of weeks ago, a low-level using 1H&S and puncturing everything. "/g 'gamertag' please stop using puncture, you're pulling agro". Next boss "/g 'gamertag' you are taunting, please stop". At that point I received a rather explicit hate whisper.

Initiated vote to kick, which failed. Left group.

Lynx7386

theslynx wrote: »

What do you do with these players?

I thought people were exaggerating when they told stories about DPS running about with swords and shields using Puncture on everything... but I just ran a couple PUG dungeons where exactly that happened. I asked one of them if he wanted to tank instead; he declined, but continued taunting everything. These pseudo-tanks were doing unhelpful stuff like pulling Sellistrix into the water and turning her to face the healer. The other DPS and the healer in both cases were solid, but if this had been a less experienced group, the dungeon would have fallen apart quickly.

Perhaps part of it is simply that they don't know what a taunt is or don't recognise that some skills taunt. It might help to make the tooltips on these skills clearer (e.g. red text that it's a tanking skill).

I would also love it if the game offered a really basic tutorial on roles that players had to do before queuing for dungeons.

Are you absolutely sure he was taunting?

Sellistrix drops aggro constantly and will randomly charge at ranged players. That's just how that fight is designed. You have to get everyone to clump up together on one of the islands

Lynx7386

Aerithone wrote: »

theslynx wrote: »

pulling Sellistrix into the water

But she should be put in water to prevent shielding.xD

Without an organized group, it's better to keep her on land and just deal with the fight taking 10 minutes.

I find that most pug groups die too easily trying to keep her in the water.

Fleshreaper

theslynx wrote: »

What do you do with these players?

I thought people were exaggerating when they told stories about DPS running about with swords and shields using Puncture on everything... but I just ran a couple PUG dungeons where exactly that happened. I asked one of them if he wanted to tank instead; he declined, but continued taunting everything. These pseudo-tanks were doing unhelpful stuff like pulling Sellistrix into the water and turning her to face the healer. The other DPS and the healer in both cases were solid, but if this had been a less experienced group, the dungeon would have fallen apart quickly.

Perhaps part of it is simply that they don't know what a taunt is or don't recognise that some skills taunt. It might help to make the tooltips on these skills clearer (e.g. red text that it's a tanking skill).

I would also love it if the game offered a really basic tutorial on roles that players had to do before queuing for dungeons.

My guess would be trolls, set out to cause other people bad experiences. That could be for one of two reason. The first being that they are just trying to cause problems because it make them feel better about themselves (these are the type of people that have so much pain in their real life, that they have to inflect pain on others, just to feel good). The second being someone from another developer, trying to cause problems in the community to drive people out and on to other games (don't rule this out, as developers spend millions on marketing and doing something such as this is nothing more than a marketing ploy, this ploy is use more than you think and in more places than just in game).

Enslaved

First, I try to explain.
Then, I try to explain again.
After that, I kick them out, put on ignore list and enjoy the presence of less dense players in my group.

Sparr0w

Usually it's a player unaware of the Ice staff passive, or levelling S&B, or from PvP who doesn't know about the taunting skill.

After explaining why the boss keeps t-bagging them I'll pull out a chair or my lute and wait for them (or me) to get kicked, should they continue to do it.

ghastley

I've been in similar situations. The problem is that a viable build for character-building, while you're essentially playing solo, needs a bit of DPS, Tank, and Healer in it, because you don't have the support of a group. The transition to specialised roles is the missing link here, and it's made worse by the way the skills build up.

Tanks are going to grab DPS skills so that their solo fights don't last forever, but there's no clear mechanism to switch them over to letting someone else do the damage-dealing. The synergies need to become more automatic, so tanks have more obvious benefits from picking a tank skill, rather than a DPS one. You currently can't assume that other players will help if you haven't positively grouped, but if "nearby but not actively cooperating" counted, it might help.

GimpyPorcupine

ghastley wrote: »

The problem is that a viable build for character-building, while you're essentially playing solo, needs a bit of DPS, Tank, and Healer in it, because you don't have the support of a group.

You've obviously never leveled a magplar. Said jokingly, please don't hate.

Merlin13KAGL

Sorry, but all of these "Maybe they don't know?" translates to "Maybe they didn't read the tooltip."

If you're queued as a tank, and you're over level 20, there's nothing cryptic to figure out here.

If you're not queued as a tank, the explanations are pretty concise, no player interaction required.

*The fact that everything they touch keeps coming to wreck them is also a pretty big clue, in most cases.*

GreenhaloX

I use S&B on one bar for one of my dps/dd toon. Although, most will mistaken it would be a tank, because of the S&B, but it is not. It's nowhere near the resistance level of a tank. I like that you can enchant either stam or mag with the shield for the increase resource. The defensive stance is also great against sorc in PvP. However, PvE-wise, I slot the Heroic Slash for the maim and movement reduction. Non-tank toon carrying S&B should not slot the Pierce Armor. You don't have the resistance as a tank, nor CP plused up for block reduction. Similarly to a dd sorc blasting heavy ice, you just taunting the boss, but then back-paddling around the room being chased by the boss and/or whatever you agroed. Screw that.. if someone, who is not a tank, is agroing the boss or everything and running around like a chicken with its head cut off, and you're having to chase after the boss that is chasing after that non-tank, I'll just leave the dungeon.

Same with world boss pits. More than likely, that non-tank that agro the boss and can't hold the boss will just run out of bound where the boss will then reset. Yeah, I'll leave that pit too. Unless, it's a pit like the Arena in the Gold Coast where you can't run out causing the boss to reset. Here, you're still chasing after the boss that is chasing after the back-paddling non-tank which agro him until the boss kills that toon or switch focus on another, or a real tank actually comes in and taunt keeping the boss in place.

VaranisArano

Lynx7386 wrote: »

theslynx wrote: »

What do you do with these players?

I thought people were exaggerating when they told stories about DPS running about with swords and shields using Puncture on everything... but I just ran a couple PUG dungeons where exactly that happened. I asked one of them if he wanted to tank instead; he declined, but continued taunting everything. These pseudo-tanks were doing unhelpful stuff like pulling Sellistrix into the water and turning her to face the healer. The other DPS and the healer in both cases were solid, but if this had been a less experienced group, the dungeon would have fallen apart quickly.

Perhaps part of it is simply that they don't know what a taunt is or don't recognise that some skills taunt. It might help to make the tooltips on these skills clearer (e.g. red text that it's a tanking skill).

I would also love it if the game offered a really basic tutorial on roles that players had to do before queuing for dungeons.

Are you absolutely sure he was taunting?

Sellistrix drops aggro constantly and will randomly charge at ranged players. That's just how that fight is designed. You have to get everyone to clump up together on one of the islands

If I see someone using an ice staff heavy attack, I watch them like a hawk, and it's super obvious when the boss aggros them instead.

The Puncture using DPS was a WTF O.o moment for me because I was just not expecting it, but equally obvious once I started looking for the Puncture animation.

Sellestrix does shed taunt with a phantom taunt, so she does get a brief taunt immunity, but if that was coupled with someone using a taunt, I've never had any issues telling if someone was using skills to taunt the boss off of me. The animations are pretty obvious once I start looking for them.

My favorite is those poor clueless ice staff users, who can't handle the boss long enough for me to taunt it back and start heavy attacking to save their sustain. I'm just like *facepalm* "now you've retaunted him and I can't even save you..."

maltinkilic

Well I don't play tank often but a similar situation happened during planar inhibitor fight. I told the group not to touch pinion as long as it is not white. I started the fight using pinion and as soon as the pinion was reusable a DD used it. I let it go and didn't even reget the aggro by reusing pinion. I just stand there and watched DD runaway while boss chase and kill him slowly
Once the DD was dead I used the pinion an started to tank again.

Tan9oSuccka

I warn them once in chat, ice staff users included.

Then I watch them die.

DaveMoeDee

swirve wrote: »

The flipside to the non taunting fake tanks, lol...

So it all balances out, right?

josiahva

Invincible wrote: »

The solution would be to stop letting dps pull aggro off you.

LMAO, do you not understand what a TAUNT is?

Charliff1966

You want to taunt, you are going to tank. Not my problem if you are dead. Learned the lesson, fine problem solved. Gonna continue and wipe the group, vote kick or i leave.

karekiz

Are you running Normals?

If Normal -> Don't care. They are probably a tank qued as every role.
If Vet -> Tell them? Let them die? Your choice.

theslynx

As to explaining things: I was tired after work and just didn't feel like getting into it or holding up the group for a few minutes to do so. Wasn't about to vote-kick unless it proved necessary; it wasn't.

I got the feeling that neither of them really knew what exactly what tanking or taunting was. The tooltip does suggest what it's for, but I think it could be a bit more obvious for people who will gloss over it. (E.g. red font it's a tanking skill at the top.) And I still think some basic intro-to-roles quest that takes five minutes would help; people learn better by practice than theory. This game attracts quite a few people who are interested in the 'Elder Scrolls' part more than the 'MMO' part, so the whole concept may be foreign to them.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Are you absolutely sure he was taunting?

Sellistrix drops aggro constantly and will randomly charge at ranged players. That's just how that fight is designed. You have to get everyone to clump up together on one of the islands

Yep. Went on for the whole dungeon, not just end boss. Puncture seemed to be part of what I guess was a rotation of sorts. It wasn't Sellistrix's random targeting. I tend to agree and keep Sellistrix on the island for random groups, too, unless the group wants to do it otherwise.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

How was their DPS on point enough with S&B to have lasted to the end boss in the first place? That's a first-trash-pull level correction...

DPS for that guy wasn't really there, but it was on normal and the other DPS was good enough to burn through things quickly enough. Vet, might have left. He actually had heavy armour on, so he could survive reasonably well, too, and could have just tanked, other than things like positioning the bosses questionably. Basically a quasi-tank trying to do DPS for whatever reason; I guess they just like having a sword and shield.

Aurielle

If it’s a vet dungeon (esp. DLC or II): I tell them what they’re doing, and why they need to stop it immediately. If they continue to taunt, I remind them that they are still taunting and vote to kick. If anyone declines the vote to kick (usually their useless 10k DPS buddy they queued with), I explain in chat why I initiated the vote to kick, and why I’m leaving. I then leave the group, ‘cause nobody got time for dat.

If it’s normal? Eh. I explain what a taunt is, and why they shouldn’t taunt if they’re not the tank. If they continue to taunt and die, I refuse to res and continue on as though they weren’t there.

I’m all for teaching people who are willing to listen. If they’re not going to listen, though? I’m not going to waste my time on them. It’s not worth the effort.

dazee

This wouldn't be a problem if ESO had threat mechanics which made sense instead of relying on an overpowered taunt which forces enemies to attack you for 15 seconds and no threat building mechanic.

Lynx7386

theslynx wrote: »

As to explaining things: I was tired after work and just didn't feel like getting into it or holding up the group for a few minutes to do so. Wasn't about to vote-kick unless it proved necessary; it wasn't.

I got the feeling that neither of them really knew what exactly what tanking or taunting was. The tooltip does suggest what it's for, but I think it could be a bit more obvious for people who will gloss over it. (E.g. red font it's a tanking skill at the top.) And I still think some basic intro-to-roles quest that takes five minutes would help; people learn better by practice than theory. This game attracts quite a few people who are interested in the 'Elder Scrolls' part more than the 'MMO' part, so the whole concept may be foreign to them.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Are you absolutely sure he was taunting?

Sellistrix drops aggro constantly and will randomly charge at ranged players. That's just how that fight is designed. You have to get everyone to clump up together on one of the islands

Yep. Went on for the whole dungeon, not just end boss. Puncture seemed to be part of what I guess was a rotation of sorts. It wasn't Sellistrix's random targeting. I tend to agree and keep Sellistrix on the island for random groups, too, unless the group wants to do it otherwise.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

How was their DPS on point enough with S&B to have lasted to the end boss in the first place? That's a first-trash-pull level correction...

DPS for that guy wasn't really there, but it was on normal and the other DPS was good enough to burn through things quickly enough. Vet, might have left. He actually had heavy armour on, so he could survive reasonably well, too, and could have just tanked, other than things like positioning the bosses questionably. Basically a quasi-tank trying to do DPS for whatever reason; I guess they just like having a sword and shield.

He was probably a pvp main and trying to use his pvp build for dungeons.

Inhuman003

either they don't know what they're doing or they are trolling to make the tank look bad.

Runschei

Tell your healer to let them die then do dungeon with them dead. Might take a little bit longer, but they might get the idea