Is ESO becoming an Asian F2P Game?

Sting864

lordrichter wrote: »

Yes, that is part of the 'form of'....

OK.... by that definition, a dog is a "form of" cat...
B2P is a form of F2P only inasmuch as they are both business models....

Raraaku

Most of these systems existed before ESO and will continue to exist long after ESO is gone. ESO is a business, and if these systems show that they will increase revenue for a business, which they do, then it should be no surprise that these systems are common place among MMOs. Particularly for those who do not adhere to a subscription payment system. That pertains to the top half of your list.

As for your second half of your list, many of the buffs can be bought with in-game currency or crafting skills. One of the few items that "buffs" that is exclusive to the crown store are research scrolls. I don't agree morally with crown crates or such systems, but once again, they're a great source of revenue.

I don't see how the systems that ESO have put in place are different from any other MMO with a similar payment system. Heck, even Blizzard has an in-game shop, and they are exclusively subscription-based. You're argument can literally be applied to just about every MMO that currently exists.

Azuramoonstar

Smasherx74 wrote: »

No matter what anyone says or how they decide to analyze and address your op, the fact remains this game is indeed Pay To Win.

Obviously the vast majority of games considered "P2W" are much worse than this. But since launch this game has been p2w. Once a single class, ability, or item was locked behind a pay wall, the game essentially became what I consider Pay 2 Win. Even if those class/ability/items are not insanely over powered the fact remains they are locked behind a paywall and considering how much this game changes balancing, there have been multiple occasions where the BiS for a specific PVE/PVP build style would be behind a paywall.

you have 0 idea what pay to win means.

Pay to win, is buying a pure 100% advantage over another player in game play, that is only available from paying money. Like buying a full bis set of raid gear.

You can't really play the semantics game with p2w. People tried it in ff14. It don't work.

If you want to see real pay to win, maple story in 2008 and mabonogi 2008 are your best bets as those games relied on use of loot boxes that dropped over powered gear, and it was the only way to get that said gear.

pay to win is not paying a sub, or paying for dlc. Pay to win is seeing that "leet gear" in a cash shop and buying it. aks paying extra.

Azuramoonstar

Sting864 wrote: »

[quote="lordrichter;c-5113904"
Yes, that is part of the 'form of'....

OK.... by that definition, a dog is a "form of" cat...
B2P is a form of F2P only inasmuch as they are both business models....[/quote]

dude, you are just trolling at this point.

a cat and dog are not the same species.

a dog being an MMORPG, while a cat is a third person single player shooter.

the buy to play and free to play mmo uses the same business model for earning money. Only difference being 1 you play for the game box, one you do not. that is the only difference. Stop starting a argument over semantics, simply because you fail to grasp the concept.

Elsonso

Sting864 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Yes, that is part of the 'form of'....

OK.... by that definition, a dog is a "form of" cat...
B2P is a form of F2P only inasmuch as they are both business models....

No, this isn't dogs and cats. F2P would be the larger classification, while B2P is the specialized implementation of F2P that adds on the need to buy the game. Much the same way that a Manx is specialized implementation of a cat that removes the tail.

You can have the last word. This debate is years old, and ESO is more of a F2P game now that it was back then, so all that needs to happen this time around is to bring the situation to current.

Sting864

lordrichter wrote: »

Sting864 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Yes, that is part of the 'form of'....

OK.... by that definition, a dog is a "form of" cat...
B2P is a form of F2P only inasmuch as they are both business models....

No, this isn't dogs and cats. F2P would be the larger classification, while B2P is the specialized implementation of F2P that adds on the need to buy the game. Much the same way that a Manx is specialized implementation of a cat that removes the tail.

You can have the last word. This debate is years old, and ESO is more of a F2P game now that it was back then, so all that needs to happen this time around is to bring the situation to current.

The debate can be settled by determining if new content is FREE, which would entail the ability to download it for FREE TO PLAY it... Or if one has to BUY content TO PLAY content... (see right there in the name...)

jedtb16_ESO

lordrichter wrote: »

Sting864 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Yes, that is part of the 'form of'....

OK.... by that definition, a dog is a "form of" cat...
B2P is a form of F2P only inasmuch as they are both business models....

No, this isn't dogs and cats. F2P would be the larger classification, while B2P is the specialized implementation of F2P that adds on the need to buy the game. Much the same way that a Manx is specialized implementation of a cat that removes the tail.

You can have the last word. This debate is years old, and ESO is more of a F2P game now that it was back then, so all that needs to happen this time around is to bring the situation to current.

um, no. b2p precedes f2p by a decade or so.

runagate

ESO is not becoming a F2P game.

It is unquestionably becoming Asian, though.


After Summerset the next patch will coincide with moving both megaservers to Asia so that Pacific, Micronesian and Australian players will have lower ping. This is fair because they are the best players and have suffered for so long. Australians will instantly come to dominate everything in Cyrodiil since they are all the best PvPers. We all know this and we all sigh in secret relief when they complain about their crippling ping.

Much like the "dream" that allows characters to play through the other 2 alliance questlines in Cadwell's Silver and Gold, all characters will be able to convert to Asian races, such as Tsaesci, Tang Mo, Kamal and Ka Po' Tun to explor Akavir, along with races that it turns out were kidnapped as a whole and transported there by the Daedra in their scheme to get control of the Towers on that continent, as the Planemeld attempt in Tamriel is only part of a global plan. These races include the Lilmothiit and Imga.

Sting864

lordrichter wrote: »

Much the same way that a Manx is specialized implementation of a cat that removes the tail.

Ummm business models are not like that at all...
What similarities do you see in the F2P and B2P business models?? Besides both not being another business model, Namely PAY 2 PLAY... which involves a subscription requirement...

Azuramoonstar

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Sting864 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Yes, that is part of the 'form of'....

OK.... by that definition, a dog is a "form of" cat...
B2P is a form of F2P only inasmuch as they are both business models....

No, this isn't dogs and cats. F2P would be the larger classification, while B2P is the specialized implementation of F2P that adds on the need to buy the game. Much the same way that a Manx is specialized implementation of a cat that removes the tail.

You can have the last word. This debate is years old, and ESO is more of a F2P game now that it was back then, so all that needs to happen this time around is to bring the situation to current.

um, no. b2p precedes f2p by a decade or so.

actually not really. we are talking about the concept of mmo. all MMO prior to WoW was sub based, outside of MuD which are free.

the buy to play model is fairly recent to MMO, while f2p came out after wow.

Azuramoonstar

Sting864 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Much the same way that a Manx is specialized implementation of a cat that removes the tail.

Ummm business models are not like that at all...
What similarities do you see in the F2P and B2P business models?? Besides both not being another business model, Namely PAY 2 PLAY... which involves a subscription requirement...

cash shop

loot boxes

paid currency amount

literally the only difference being you buy the game.

MMO that had subs never had cash shops till the past 5 years. heck ff11 has no cash shop and still pay to play.

Kiralyn2000

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Once a single class, ability, or item was locked behind a pay wall, the game essentially became what I consider Pay 2 Win.

So..... WoW, Everquest, FF14, Diablo 1/2/3, Starcraft, Borderlands... are all p2w games? Any game that's ever sold an expansion that contains new classes/units/gear/etc?

Sting864

runagate wrote: »

ESO is not becoming a F2P game.

It is unquestionably becoming Asian, though.


After Summerset the next patch will coincide with moving both megaservers to Asia so that Pacific, Micronesian and Australian players will have lower ping.

Where have I heard this before???
Oh yeah they said this in 2017, before Morrowind...
And in 2016 before the Thieves Guild and DB DLC...
And before consoles released....

TheInfernalRage

I do not know what the OP is trying to suggest. Are there monetization models that you are trying to imply ZOS should adopt or avoid in order to stand out as a "real" buy to play?

The list you presented looks like that of a general model for MMORPGs.

Valkysas154

I have played Asian mmorpgs with less of a grind and money grabs -been playing mmo since 1999-

but i also have not played a mmo that made me care about the quest other than just doing them to level up

There defiantly walking a fine line with customers lately since the crown store mounts use to be 700-800 crowns
pets 200-400 so so now look at it + crates

Cpt_Teemo

ArchMikem wrote: »

If you have to buy it for $60, its not Free to Play.

You can get the vanilla version for nearly 10$ most of the time on steam

Kiralyn2000

Valkysas154 wrote: »

I have played Asian mmorpgs with less of a grind and money grabs -been playing mmo since 1999-

Hmm. Most of the Asian f2p MMOs I've tried have been much grindy-er. (Perfect World, Forsaken World, TERA, Sword of the New World, Vindictus, Uncharted Waters Online....) Mostly more money-grabby, too. Made the mistake of trying an Aeria f2p mmo - that one was amazingly money grabby.

...honestly, thinking about it, early WoW was at least as grindy as ESO. Wintersaber or Booty Bay reputation, anyone?

Cpt_Teemo

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Valkysas154 wrote: »

I have played Asian mmorpgs with less of a grind and money grabs -been playing mmo since 1999-

Hmm. Most of the Asian f2p MMOs I've tried have been much grindy-er. (Perfect World, Forsaken World, TERA, Sword of the New World, Vindictus, Uncharted Waters Online....) Mostly more money-grabby, too. Made the mistake of trying an Aeria f2p mmo - that one was amazingly money grabby.

...honestly, thinking about it, early WoW was at least as grindy as ESO. Wintersaber or Booty Bay reputation, anyone?

Also nearly all asian MMO's are B2p as well but F2p after with no sub base

DieAlteHexe

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Valkysas154 wrote: »

I have played Asian mmorpgs with less of a grind and money grabs -been playing mmo since 1999-

Hmm. Most of the Asian f2p MMOs I've tried have been much grindy-er. (Perfect World, Forsaken World, TERA, Sword of the New World, Vindictus, Uncharted Waters Online....) Mostly more money-grabby, too. Made the mistake of trying an Aeria f2p mmo - that one was amazingly money grabby.

...honestly, thinking about it, early WoW was at least as grindy as ESO. Wintersaber or Booty Bay reputation, anyone?

*twitch*

Cpt_Teemo

Oh if you want grindy play ArchAge without spending a penny, or even BDO

jedtb16_ESO

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Sting864 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Yes, that is part of the 'form of'....

OK.... by that definition, a dog is a "form of" cat...
B2P is a form of F2P only inasmuch as they are both business models....

No, this isn't dogs and cats. F2P would be the larger classification, while B2P is the specialized implementation of F2P that adds on the need to buy the game. Much the same way that a Manx is specialized implementation of a cat that removes the tail.

You can have the last word. This debate is years old, and ESO is more of a F2P game now that it was back then, so all that needs to happen this time around is to bring the situation to current.

um, no. b2p precedes f2p by a decade or so.

actually not really. we are talking about the concept of mmo. all MMO prior to WoW was sub based, outside of MuD which are free.

the buy to play model is fairly recent to MMO, while f2p came out after wow.

on first release wow was 40$ with the first 30 days free (the sub was $14.99). that makes it b2p +sub. leaving aside the muds games such as isles of keshmai were pay by the hour.

Sting864

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Not till a year after it launched, because it had a 12 month vet reward no cartel market within that period, or atleast to my knowledge I quit 3 months after launch though

Apparently I have lost a few months of my recollection... When did ESO release on consoles?? When did the Crown store open?? How long were console players required to pay for a subscription to play??

karekiz

I played F2P grind games. I really liked Runes of Magic <The multi-class system was really fun>, but there was no doubt that you paid to have the best gear.

You can literally craft sets and be 100% fine here.

Cpt_Teemo

Sting864 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Not till a year after it launched, because it had a 12 month vet reward no cartel market within that period, or atleast to my knowledge I quit 3 months after launch though

Apparently I have lost a few months of my recollection... When did ESO release on consoles?? When did the Crown store open?? How long were console players required to pay for a subscription to play??

Didn't console launch happen 1 year after as well

ZOS_JesC

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starkerealm

Czekoludek wrote: »

Recently I found a presentation about Monetization in Asian F2P Games and one thing really shocked me. Why ESO uses so many game systems designed for F2P games to earn money? I mean according to presentation we have systems like:
- Paid mounts
- Paid costumes/vanity items
- Paid time speed-ups
- Secondary currencies
- Buffs
- Gambling systems
- Paid gear
- Paid resources
Right now the only systems we don't have in ESO are paid gear and resources. But they are the mechanics used by F2P Games for which initial cost equals zero. Right now for ESO Collection (edition with Tamriel Unlimited, Morrowind and Summerset update) we must pay 80$. What do you think about that kind of practice? Is it okay for ZoS to make money by using so many F2P mechanics while we still must buy the game to play?

Okay, let's carve this apart.

Paid mounts (Not Really)

ESO doesn't actually have this. At least not in the way the presenter was probably talking about it. A lot of F2P games will actually charge you money for statistically superior mounts. So, while ESO does have mounts you can buy in the store, they're basically under the next header.

If the game still functioned like it did at launch, where specific mounts had unique modifiers, such as extra capacity or speed, then this would be an issue (though those were never the mounts you bought with cash.)

Paid costumes/vanity items (Yes)

These are incredibly common in the industry today. To the point that we see it in single player games fairly regularly. Alternate skins as DLC, microtransactions.

To be fair, this is probably the single most benign thing on the list. Personalization is a major component in most RPGs, especially ones with online/coop components. Would it be nice to get that stuff for free? Yeah, absolutely. Am I willing to spend out of pocket to get a cool looking set of clothes for my character? Well, yes. It doesn't adversely affect other players (normally), so unless the design is intended to punish other players for not having something, or provide direct game play advantages (such as BDO's ghillie suit), it's a thing that exists.

Paid time speed-ups (Yes)

Yeah, ESO does have these, specifically in the form of the XP scrolls and the research scrolls. Am I thrilled about these? I honestly don't care.

The thing about accelerators in a capped system is, they just get you to the finish line faster, they don't actually make you more powerful.

Is it ideal? Probably not.

Secondary currencies (No)

Okay, I get where you can look at the bullet point and say, "but, we've got Gems, and Crowns, and Tel Var, and AP, and Gold, and Vouchers, we must have secondary currencies, right?"

That's not what's going on here though. Yes, the Gems/Crowns thing can be a little confusing, and the article may have specifically suggested gems as a secondary currency, but that's not what this is.

Secondary currencies in F2P games are resources that you can grind (at hilariously slow rates) through normal game play, and then convert into cash shop currency. In some cases, these are a currency that can be outright purchased from the game and sold (or given) to other players in game. So, if you want to buy some cool item another player has, you might facilitate that transaction by buying a secondary currency and moving it that way.

ESO doesn't have that.

Buffs (No)

Again, we do have the accelerators. If you want to get +100% XP for the next two hours, then the crown store is that way, and this does show up on your character screen as a buff, but that's not what they were talking about here.

When they're talking about buffs, they mean you pay money for a buff that increases your character's stats, or boosts their damage. These are direct gameplay advantages that you can pay money for, and possess for a limited amount of time.

The closes thing we have is the ESO+ extra bank space. To be fair, extra bank and inventory space is a thing in these games. So, if you really wanted to squeeze this one under this header, that is an option. But, ESO doesn't engage in buff selling the way the presentation was, likely, talking about.

Gambling systems (No, with the exception of the Crates)

Okay, so, yes, Crates/gambling, yeah, we know about that. That's not what they're talking about here.

A lot of F2P games actually bake gambling into the core gameplay systems. For example, games where upgrading gear requires you to roll the dice, and risk damaging or destroying your gear in order to improve it. The analogy would be if in ESO you could only use three upgrade mats on every attempt. You could upgrade anything to blue, but then you'd have a 75% chance to get something to purple, and a 62.5% to destroy something on any attempt to upgrade it to gold, meaning you're going to need to keep rolling the dice until it takes.

In particular, it's very common to see multiple, stacked, systems designed to heavily punish the player for failure, requiring them to continue grinding to advance. Which, leads directly into the next system. Because if the game is selling better gear, then there's a direct incentive to put their thumb on the scale of any improvement system, pushing the player towards coughing up cash in order to actually get good gear.

Paid gear (Yes!)

BROOM AND BUCKET BABY!

Though seriously, it's an issue in some F2Ps. You can grind all you want, but the good stuff is gated behind the cash shop. Bonus points if those items are in that game's lockboxes, pushing you to spend money at the chance of getting good gear.

Oh, also worth considering is that Paid Gear sometimes overlaps with Buffs. In some games, (I'm thinking of Nexon's stuff here), it's fairly common to see them selling gear in the cash shop, with a timer attached. So after X amount of time it will decay and disappear. (Usually 7 days or 30 days, but this depends on the game.) I don't think I need to say why this is disgusting.

Paid resources (No.)

Yeah. This ties in with the gambling systems you'll often see in these games. Because crafting is a very easy venue to insert gambling mechanics, it makes sense to ensure that you're also selling a way to give players a chance to continue pulling the lever.

So, to recap:

• Paid mounts (No)
• Paid costumes/vanity items (Yes)
• Paid time speed-ups (Yes)
• Secondary currencies (No)
• Buffs (No)
• Gambling systems (No, Excluding Crates)
• Paid gear (Pay to Loose!)
• Paid resources (No)

If I'm generous and give you the crates, that's three that ESO actually has.

Now, I can't blame you if ESO's montization leaves a bad taste in your mouth. However, the presentation you found was on games that are outright predatory in their design. That's not ESO.

Enslaved

What some might see as P2W and be correct to some point

• jewelrycrafting
• warden
• psijic skill line
• imperial race

What is not P2W in any case

• mounts
• costumes
• other cosmetic bs

starkerealm

lordrichter wrote: »

Sting864 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Unless you want to turn eso back into a strictly pay to play mmo, then the "f2p/b2p" model will be there. Businesses are out to make money from a service. eso is free with next to no limits after you buy it. Which you can buy the game pretty cheaply. I bout eso digital for $13 which had both the base game, and morrowind. summerset is 30-40+ which comes with morrowind.

Ummm... There's no such thing as a "f2p/b2p" model...
ESO is B2P period...

As implemented by ESO, 'B2P' is a form of 'F2P'. The two terms are siblings, when compared to other means of monetizing a game.

No. If you want to see what a F2P game looks like, fire up any number of actual F2P MMOs. I'd recommend some, but I loathe most of that part of the market with a fiery passion. The good news is, you're only out download bandwidth and some hard drive space (until you delete them).

Or, you know, if you want a B2P that behaves like a F2P, go check out Black Desert Online... just, don't spend more than about $5 on it.

Now, if you were looking at BDO and saying, B2P is almost the same as F2P... yeah, I couldn't fault you for that mistake. But, holy snot is BDO a monitization mess. ESO's a lot more restrained than that.

starkerealm

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Sting864 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Yes, that is part of the 'form of'....

OK.... by that definition, a dog is a "form of" cat...
B2P is a form of F2P only inasmuch as they are both business models....

No, this isn't dogs and cats. F2P would be the larger classification, while B2P is the specialized implementation of F2P that adds on the need to buy the game. Much the same way that a Manx is specialized implementation of a cat that removes the tail.

You can have the last word. This debate is years old, and ESO is more of a F2P game now that it was back then, so all that needs to happen this time around is to bring the situation to current.

um, no. b2p precedes f2p by a decade or so.

actually not really. we are talking about the concept of mmo. all MMO prior to WoW was sub based, outside of MuD which are free.

the buy to play model is fairly recent to MMO, while f2p came out after wow.

Guild Wars released a couple months before World of Warcraft, as I recall. So, no, even in the range of MMOs, B2P's been around since 2004/2005.

Which doesn't even address the existence of B2P mutiplayer games, like Neverwinter Nights, or any of the old arena shooters. That takes us back into the 90s.

Sting864

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Sting864 wrote: »

Ummm business models are not like that at all...
What similarities do you see in the F2P and B2P business models?? Besides both not being another business model, Namely PAY 2 PLAY... which involves a subscription requirement...

cash shop

loot boxes

paid currency amount

literally the only difference being you buy the game.

So you are admitting the only difference is the means by which you acquire essential content?
That doesn't make one a subset of the other... The rest cannot be used to define what you are trying to define...
Done and Done....