Solution to The Imbue Weapons Problem

Tyrobag

So the suckyist thing about Imbue weapons is the awful 2 second duration. It is a preparatory ability, you should be able to wait before using it up. The only reason I've seen for this was due to ZoS not wanting to overbuff gankers further.

I propose that Imbue Weapons should have a 10 second duration, receive a slight cost increase, and gain a new effect that makes it impossible to be in stealth while the ability is active. This rather makes sense, I'd like to see anyone sneak with a giant golden-glowing weapon. And that high pitched noise it makes would give you away in an instant.

This change would both allow Imbue to not feel so horribly clunky, and it would stop it from letting gankers use it to stack even more burst damage.

Another good option would be to increase the duration and cut the damage in half, but make it work for two strikes rather than just for one. This is less instant burst damage, while still remaining a good ability.

Anyone else think this would be a welcome change? Anyone have any other ideas?

RoyJade

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage. It does similar damage than force pulse, and is not affected by light attack's buff (cp, set, empower…).

If you give it a longer duration, it would lead to more burst (imbued + LA + spammable = 2 spammables in one GCD.
If you nerf the damage, apply it to two LA and give longer duration, it won't be a spammable anymore AND it would lead to more burst : three spammables and two LA for two GCD, so even more burst.


The skill need a better animation, who fit perfectly with light attack weaving. It may need some tweak with ranged LA (applied to the next fired LA within 2 seconds, even if the attack hit after the 2 second window), but it doesn't need a higher timer.

Tyrobag

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage. It does similar damage than force pulse, and is not affected by light attack's buff (cp, set, empower…).

Yeah, and its a spammable that feels like crap

RoyJade wrote: »

If you give it a longer duration, it would lead to more burst (imbued + LA + spammable = 2 spammables in one GCD.
If you nerf the damage, apply it to two LA and give longer duration, it won't be a spammable anymore AND it would lead to more burst : three spammables and two LA for two GCD, so even more burst.

Did you actually think about this before writing it? You can already do Imbue + Light + Spammable. And if the damage is cut in half and strung out over two attacks, then it is the exact same amount of damage over more time.

Please actually think your arguments out before attempting to attack someone else's idea.

RoyJade

Tyrobag wrote: »

Yeah, and its a spammable that feels like crap

Which is not a reason, with a better animation and more reliable application it would be a good spammable.

Tyrobag wrote: »

Did you actually think about this before writing it? You can already do Imbue + Light + Spammable. And if the damage it cut in half and strung out over two attacks, then it is the exact same amount of damage over more time.

Please actually think your arguments out before attempting to attack someone else's idea.

I misswrote something : with your change, you'll be able to do imbue + spammable + light attack, which lead to the higher burst I described for every spammable in the game, even channeled one. It already cause a problem with some slow speed ranged LA + instant spammable, don't extend it to all close ranged spammable. We really don't need virtually 60% more damage on a dizzying swing or surprise attack + LA combo (or dawnbreaker, or incap, or fire whip, or every instant cast skill ingame).

If the damage is cut :
- no more reliable spammable in pve for 2H sorc/DK (who could be a thing without the 2H light attack nerf)
- no more reliable spammable for pve mid-ranged (or high mobility) bow build except for warden
- no more alternatine to force pulse for magsorc
- and less 1 second burst but more 2 seconds burst, because you'll be able to take incap + SA + SA + 2 LA + one additional spammable which does 90% of SA's damage in the two second time frame.


Again, the skill has the 2 second effect because it designed to not stack with an another spammable. It is a spammable, designed to be one even with the special application it has.

Lexxypwns

Terrible plan. Don’t need stealth to 1 bang someone with a combo like - Imbue-Sub-Racer,crit rush, DBoS. As it is that combo as well as some others(combos built around meteor, unblockable CC, and other concurrent damage) are currently really really strong on live and increasing the imbue duration makes them even stronger, too strong.

At present imbue can’t be combined with Fissure or meteor unless you use a GCD after casting those abilities, your change would make these burst combos far too strong.

You would also be into the range where Imbue-HA-Spammable-LA-Spammable could all deal damage within the span of 1.2 seconds

Tyrobag

RoyJade wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Yeah, and its a spammable that feels like crap

Which is not a reason, with a better animation and more reliable application it would be a good spammable.

How is that not a reason? If an ability sucks to use, nobody will use it. That sounds like a damn good reason to fix it.

RoyJade wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Did you actually think about this before writing it? You can already do Imbue + Light + Spammable. And if the damage it cut in half and strung out over two attacks, then it is the exact same amount of damage over more time.

Please actually think your arguments out before attempting to attack someone else's idea.

I misswrote something : with your change, you'll be able to do imbue + spammable + light attack, which lead to the higher burst I described for every spammable in the game, even channeled one. It already cause a problem with some slow speed ranged LA + instant spammable, don't extend it to all close ranged spammable. We really don't need virtually 60% more damage on a dizzying swing or surprise attack + LA combo (or dawnbreaker, or incap, or fire whip, or every instant cast skill ingame).

Yes, you could do that, which would be the damage equivalent of casting Any Spammable + Any Spammable + light attack. Meaning that you are loosing out on the damage of one of your light attacks. What you are describing with the cast time attacks can already be done by any warden: Cliffracer + charged Spammable (or visa versa depending on distance). It may be easier to get some damage increase, but that has nothing to do with damage stacking for gankers.

RoyJade wrote: »

If the damage is cut :
- no more reliable spammable in pve for 2H sorc/DK (who could be a thing without the 2H light attack nerf)
- no more reliable spammable for pve mid-ranged (or high mobility) bow build except for warden
- no more alternatine to force pulse for magsorc
- and less 1 second burst but more 2 seconds burst, because you'll be able to take incap + SA + SA + 2 LA + one additional spammable which does 90% of SA's damage in the two second time frame.

Maybe you just don't understand how damage works? It would be the Exact Same amount of damage, which means its just significantly more reliable because you aren't being rushed into it. There will be no increase or decrease if it is split in half over two attacks.

RoyJade wrote: »

Again, the skill has the 2 second effect because it designed to not stack with an another spammable. It is a spammable, designed to be one even with the special application it has.

So your argument is that it is what it is so it is what it is? It can be made better quite easily, and so it should be.

Gilvoth

Tyrobag wrote: »

I propose that Imbue Weapons should have a 10 second duration

im willing to vote "yes" as long as you accept and vote "yes" for the following ...

I propose that nightblade shadow cloak should have a 10 second duration.

sound fair? i think it's fair.
and yes i'm being serious.

RoyJade

Tyrobag wrote: »

How is that not a reason? If an ability sucks to use, nobody will use it. That sounds like a damn good reason to fix it.

You're right : a damn good reason to fix it. Not to change it entirely.
The skill is clunky, and can be made smoother to use without tweaking his core design and run into some problem this design try to avoid.

Tyrobag wrote: »

Yes, you could do that, which would be the damage equivalent of casting Any Spammable + Any Spammable + light attack. Meaning that you are loosing out on the damage of one of your light attacks. What you are describing with the cast time attacks can already be done by any warden: Cliffracer + charged Spammable (or visa versa depending on distance). It may be easier to get some damage increase, but that has nothing to do with damage stacking for gankers.

Maybe you just don't understand how damage works? It would be the Exact Same amount of damage, which means its just significantly more reliable because you aren't being rushed into it. There will be no increase or decrease if it is split in half over two attacks.

Tell me, what is the difference between a sorc hardcasting two crystal fragment and a sorc who use curse then time it with a hardcasted frag ? The overall damage is exactly the same. But the result is drastically different.
In the first case, you take damage, then have some time in order to heal. On the second, you take all damage at once, which is far more dangerous in pvp when burst is really important, probably the most important thing in order to get a kill.
That's the same with your idea : while the enemy would use a GCD in order to boost (no damage for you), you'll then take everything in a short frame of time, which is far more dangerous at worst (when you cannot react properly) and as dangerous as before at best (when you can freely shield/block/avoid).
Remember, stamden are strong in pvp due to their extremely high burst capacity. Nightblade too. MagDK are good in duel due to their defense and pressure, but on overland the burst class rule nearly everything. Adding a "free" spammable on top of their actual burst is not a good idea. It's exactly the same as if you asked for force pulse to fire when you use the second force pulse (or surprise attack, and so on): double time to do damage, but doubled damage. And it's not a good thing.

"Same overall damage" is a pve-only argument. In pvp, it doesn't work the same.

Tyrobag wrote: »

So your argument is that it is what it is so it is what it is? It can be made better quite easily, and so it should be.

Better and different is not the same thing. It can indeed be made better by changing the animation and the weaving reliance.
And my argument is indeed that something created with the will to not add more instraburst in pvp should not be changed to boost the bursty pvp playstyle. Your change won't make it really better in sustained fight while giving burst playstyle a new toy, which is the exact opposite of what the skill try to do.

NyassaV

10 Second duration is something that wards should have, not a supposed spammable. Maybe 3 or 4 seconds but nothing past that for imbue weapon

Tempestwrath

I don't really see a problem here. Imbue Weapon is a spammable. I'm not having a particularly difficult problem weaving it as intended, and I find that the skill provides builds with an alternative spammable option that in many cases isn't directly better than native class or skill line spammables, but may fit better into the rotation of specific builds. That's great for variety.

As far as it being used in PVP burst, the Imbue itself is really blatantly telegraphed. You just need to prime yourself to dodge roll or block or shield up or, well, do something when you see it. Like you do with telegraphs for Warden burst or, well, any burst. I feel like that's a reasonable skill check.

Lexxypwns

NyassaV wrote: »

10 Second duration is something that wards should have, not a supposed spammable. Maybe 3 or 4 seconds but nothing past that for imbue weapon

That’s still too long, allows it to be pre-casted as part of a Fissure or meteor combo

Lexxypwns

NyassaV wrote: »

10 Second duration is something that wards should have, not a supposed spammable. Maybe 3 or 4 seconds but nothing past that for imbue weapon

That’s still too long, allows it to be pre-casted as part of a Fissure or meteor combo

Avran_Sylt

Can’t use IW from stealth anyway. It breaks it. So that cuts out your reasoning for the 10s duration.

And why would I want to split the damage into my next two light attacks? In what rotation would you see that in in PvE?

Mystrius_Archaion

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

Erraln

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

This is a reasonable mistake to make, but it's a mistake. The tooltip information that the skill gives you is misinformative. It does not add damage to your light attack like some sets and the maelstrom staff do. It does an extra strike *upon* your next light attack connecting. There will be two damage events instead of one, and that's before considering the magic morph's extra elemental hit, etc.

It's an instant cast, it doesn't interfere with light weaving, and its cost is in line with other spammable abilities. If there's some other condition by which it is disqualified for being called a spammable damage fill, I'm not sure I've heard of it.

As for the necessity of hitting the target with a light attack immediately after, that's true, but it's not difficult... this game's hitboxes are huge. It can be dodged, of course, but so can some other spammables.

Temeraire507

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

I get your point here, but it is still a spammable in most content. Light atacks are your biggest damage source in PvE with weaving. If you don't hit with them you will lose massive DPS anyway. The only reasons to miss a light attack are clicking with false timing, your game client not targeting your target and the target dodging. In the first scenario imbue weapons may make this less likely to happen because they are bound to the light attack. In the second case a spammable of kind won't hit anyway. In the third case it is not important from what I know (may be false tho) because the imbue damage is another hit at the same time, so it should have its own chance.

When it comes to the mobility part of PvP you truly have a point but it is possible to be used as a spammable imo. Also note that you are mixing pulls like chains (that are counted as kind of crowdcontrol normally), mobility skills and gap closers like the charges. Those things are not really comparable if it comes to the use of this ability although they are all some ways to move a potential target.

Temeraire507

Tyrobag wrote: »

It would be the Exact Same amount of damage, which means its just significantly more reliable because you aren't being rushed into it. There will be no increase or decrease if it is split in half over two attacks.

It would cut its damage by a half. If you use it you would use two global cooldowns, so spamming it would mean you would waste half the damage everytime you use it. This would only be playable by alternating between imbue and another spammable.

Mystrius_Archaion

Erraln wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

This is a reasonable mistake to make, but it's a mistake. The tooltip information that the skill gives you is misinformative. It does not add damage to your light attack like some sets and the maelstrom staff do. It does an extra strike *upon* your next light attack connecting.

You misunderstood my post. IT REQUIRES HITTING WITH A LIGHT ATTACK AFTER A CAST!
Global cooldown plus global cooldown.

That is not spammable as the definition of a spammable is something you can just repeat and repeat and repeat the same exact action. This requires more coordination and for the server connection to actually behave and have everything go through 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 without every going 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 2 or 1 too long wait 2 or any other variation.

Not everybody can weave. In fact, most likely can't. They designed this for 1% of the population to benefit from it. The skill is otherwise a bad design for everyone else.


Edit:
Yes, I can't weave. I am even forced to use gamepad for comfort of play and I'm unsure if a gamepad ever could weave. I get more dps out of DoTs and heavy attacks than I ever could with light attacks and light attacks are a dps loss versus instant skills if you can't weave.

Dymence

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

Dude what? If you can't hit your light attacks in PVE, you're doing something very wrong. Light attacks are your biggest source of damage in PVE. That aside, imbue weapons is very much a spammable. You weave it with your lights just like any other spammable would.

Mystrius_Archaion

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

Dude what? If you can't hit your light attacks in PVE, you're doing something very wrong. Light attacks are your biggest source of damage in PVE. That aside, imbue weapons is very much a spammable. You weave it with your lights just like any other spammable would.

Only biggest source if you can weave properly, otherwise light attacks are weaker than direct skills by far, unless you are an all weapon/spell damage build which makes them more comparable but still behind.

And FYI, Imbue Weapons still requires perfect 1 2 timing, which lag doesn't often allow even if you are skilled enough to be perfect every time.

Dymence

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

Dude what? If you can't hit your light attacks in PVE, you're doing something very wrong. Light attacks are your biggest source of damage in PVE. That aside, imbue weapons is very much a spammable. You weave it with your lights just like any other spammable would.

Only biggest source if you can weave properly, otherwise light attacks are weaker than direct skills by far, unless you are an all weapon/spell damage build which makes them more comparable but still behind.

And FYI, Imbue Weapons still requires perfect 1 2 timing, which lag doesn't often allow even if you are skilled enough to be perfect every time.

People are able to weave it perfectly on the PTS, which for myself aswell as other EU players is a very laggy environment.

Weaving is not rocket science as you make it out to be. It's a core gameplay mechanic in ESO. It should not be treated as something bizarre that only the 1% are able to perform honestly.

RoyJade

Most player can weave properly in a pve environment, it's notably easy now. As Dymence say, even as a EU player there is no problem to weave on the PTS, and 700 ping doesn't even prevent me to do so.
Weaving is notably easy with a gamepad, a few console payers who have also played on pc teach me that it's even easier (as long as you have more than one hand, said one of them - who can even weave nearly properly with his only one left).

If you can't weave, it's probably a problem on your side. I don't know if it's a lack of training or a real blockage, so I won't judge. But for the vast majority of players, weaving is easy and imbued will be a good pve spammable.
And in pvp, most player can weave also, so they'll be able to use imbued too. Ranged LA will have some troubles, but DW/SnB/2H will be just fine. SnB magplar/magsorc will be really happy with it.

Mystrius_Archaion

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

Dude what? If you can't hit your light attacks in PVE, you're doing something very wrong. Light attacks are your biggest source of damage in PVE. That aside, imbue weapons is very much a spammable. You weave it with your lights just like any other spammable would.

Only biggest source if you can weave properly, otherwise light attacks are weaker than direct skills by far, unless you are an all weapon/spell damage build which makes them more comparable but still behind.

And FYI, Imbue Weapons still requires perfect 1 2 timing, which lag doesn't often allow even if you are skilled enough to be perfect every time.

People are able to weave it perfectly on the PTS, which for myself aswell as other EU players is a very laggy environment.

Weaving is not rocket science as you make it out to be. It's a core gameplay mechanic in ESO. It should not be treated as something bizarre that only the 1% are able to perform honestly.

Is there some benchmark for proper weaving that is set in stone somewhere?
Anybody have a video showing what weaving looks like and what it looks like when not properly weaved but still activated back to back?

How can we even know what proper weaving is let alone do it properly?

Also, if it isn't 100% successful and easy for everyone to weave all the time then designing a skill around it, or basing discussions about whether that skill is overpowered or not on that, is a flawed pointless argument.

This skill is not overpowered without weaving which also makes other skills overpowered so it is actually weaving that is overpowered and needs to be nerfed or removed and not this single skill.

Dymence

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

Dude what? If you can't hit your light attacks in PVE, you're doing something very wrong. Light attacks are your biggest source of damage in PVE. That aside, imbue weapons is very much a spammable. You weave it with your lights just like any other spammable would.

Only biggest source if you can weave properly, otherwise light attacks are weaker than direct skills by far, unless you are an all weapon/spell damage build which makes them more comparable but still behind.

And FYI, Imbue Weapons still requires perfect 1 2 timing, which lag doesn't often allow even if you are skilled enough to be perfect every time.

People are able to weave it perfectly on the PTS, which for myself aswell as other EU players is a very laggy environment.

Weaving is not rocket science as you make it out to be. It's a core gameplay mechanic in ESO. It should not be treated as something bizarre that only the 1% are able to perform honestly.

Is there some benchmark for proper weaving that is set in stone somewhere?
Anybody have a video showing what weaving looks like and what it looks like when not properly weaved but still activated back to back?

How can we even know what proper weaving is let alone do it properly?

Also, if it isn't 100% successful and easy for everyone to weave all the time than designing a skill around it, or basing discussions about whether that skill is overpowered or not on that, is a flawed pointless argument.

This skill is not overpowered without weaving which also makes other skills overpowered so it is actually weaving that is overpowered and needs to be nerfed or removed and not this single skill.

And earlier in this thread you actually went and said someone has no idea what they were talking about smh

RoyJade

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Is there some benchmark for proper weaving that is set in stone somewhere?
Anybody have a video showing what weaving looks like and what it looks like when not properly weaved but still activated back to back?

How can we even know what proper weaving is let alone do it properly?

Also, if it isn't 100% successful and easy for everyone to weave all the time then designing a skill around it, or basing discussions about whether that skill is overpowered or not on that, is a flawed pointless argument.

This skill is not overpowered without weaving which also makes other skills overpowered so it is actually weaving that is overpowered and needs to be nerfed or removed and not this single skill.

The goal is to hit the light attack button just before the end of the skill animation, then use the skill as soon as you can. If you weave properly, you should see a tiny part of the LA animation without using a GCD just for it.
There is plenty of videos on Internet who will explain and show this better than me. Still, I recommend to lean weaving with force pulse and either light or medium attack (medium are a little easier for learning, but since Morrowind light are far better in term of dps).

Weaving is the result of a "bug" created by one of the combat design (cut skills with some move such as dodge/block/swap in order to increase combat velocity), but it's now a fully intended feature. They reworked weaving some patches ago in order to make it easier to do and less abusable (no more GDC cut for normal skills, which was possible before). Most of the light attack change are also dues to weaving. We have to deal with it as one of the tool ZOS gives us.

Mystrius_Archaion

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

Dude what? If you can't hit your light attacks in PVE, you're doing something very wrong. Light attacks are your biggest source of damage in PVE. That aside, imbue weapons is very much a spammable. You weave it with your lights just like any other spammable would.

Only biggest source if you can weave properly, otherwise light attacks are weaker than direct skills by far, unless you are an all weapon/spell damage build which makes them more comparable but still behind.

And FYI, Imbue Weapons still requires perfect 1 2 timing, which lag doesn't often allow even if you are skilled enough to be perfect every time.

People are able to weave it perfectly on the PTS, which for myself aswell as other EU players is a very laggy environment.

Weaving is not rocket science as you make it out to be. It's a core gameplay mechanic in ESO. It should not be treated as something bizarre that only the 1% are able to perform honestly.

Is there some benchmark for proper weaving that is set in stone somewhere?
Anybody have a video showing what weaving looks like and what it looks like when not properly weaved but still activated back to back?

How can we even know what proper weaving is let alone do it properly?

Also, if it isn't 100% successful and easy for everyone to weave all the time than designing a skill around it, or basing discussions about whether that skill is overpowered or not on that, is a flawed pointless argument.

This skill is not overpowered without weaving which also makes other skills overpowered so it is actually weaving that is overpowered and needs to be nerfed or removed and not this single skill.

And earlier in this thread you actually went and said someone has no idea what they were talking about smh

Because they said this single skill was a spammable, which even with weaving it is not. It does no damage on its own.

Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons = "OMG I'm dead!" /sarcasm

It's not a spammable unless it is stupid easy to use instantly doing its own damage.

Toc de Malsvi

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Imbued weapons is a spammable. Like force pulse, surprise attack, fire whip and so on. It's not a light attack buff, it's a spammable who need a light attack in order to apply his damage.

Huh?
You don't know what you're talking about.

It will never be a spammable because it doesn't do damage itself. It's more interruptable than instant, which interruptables are usually cast time or channeled abilities. This requires really good connection and coordination to be successful every time you use it.

FYI, enemies move. So you have to be able to target them right after hitting this and then light attack before that target moves. Good luck doing that with PVE shenanigans let alone PVP with DK chains or Silver Leash chains or Streak from sorcerers or any other charge skill your enemy could use.


This is not a spammable. It will only ever be truly useful, if at all, in fights where the boss moves slow(since AoE is better against trash) and doesn't have you moving a lot and dodging or blocking a lot or in PVP ganking from stealth because any other situation your target is going to be moving too much and randomly interrupting you with either a stun or making you need to shield or heal instead of do damage because you're too close to zero health.

This skill is more designed for a tab-target "tank and spank" MMO and not an action combat MMO.

Dude what? If you can't hit your light attacks in PVE, you're doing something very wrong. Light attacks are your biggest source of damage in PVE. That aside, imbue weapons is very much a spammable. You weave it with your lights just like any other spammable would.

Only biggest source if you can weave properly, otherwise light attacks are weaker than direct skills by far, unless you are an all weapon/spell damage build which makes them more comparable but still behind.

And FYI, Imbue Weapons still requires perfect 1 2 timing, which lag doesn't often allow even if you are skilled enough to be perfect every time.

People are able to weave it perfectly on the PTS, which for myself aswell as other EU players is a very laggy environment.

Weaving is not rocket science as you make it out to be. It's a core gameplay mechanic in ESO. It should not be treated as something bizarre that only the 1% are able to perform honestly.

Is there some benchmark for proper weaving that is set in stone somewhere?
Anybody have a video showing what weaving looks like and what it looks like when not properly weaved but still activated back to back?

How can we even know what proper weaving is let alone do it properly?

Also, if it isn't 100% successful and easy for everyone to weave all the time than designing a skill around it, or basing discussions about whether that skill is overpowered or not on that, is a flawed pointless argument.

This skill is not overpowered without weaving which also makes other skills overpowered so it is actually weaving that is overpowered and needs to be nerfed or removed and not this single skill.

And earlier in this thread you actually went and said someone has no idea what they were talking about smh

Because they said this single skill was a spammable, which even with weaving it is not. It does no damage on its own.

Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons + Imbue Weapons = "OMG I'm dead!" /sarcasm

It's not a spammable unless it is stupid easy to use instantly doing its own damage.

It was an assumption that after learning to play the game, players know to use light attacks between skills. By spammable they are referring to using the same "skill" over and over, not simply only using skills. Light/heavy/medium attacks function outside of skills the same way dodge and block do.

In combat "weaving" light/medium/heavy attacks between skills when not actively dodging/blocking is a basic fundamental of eso now. Failing to do so points either to a physical limitation or inexperience in the game.

I play pimarily on console, but when on the PTS I also play with a controller because of finger/hand pain. Weaving light attacks is perfectly achievable with a small amount of practice.

RoyJade

Technically, a spammable is the highest simple cast damage skill in your arsenal. It's the skill you use literally everytime you don't need to refresh a buff, debuff or dot.
In ESO, LAs aren't a skill, and weaved LAs aren't either : they doesn't use a global cooldown. You can use imbue as a spammable since you'll use a weaved LA between each skill unless you need to do a heavy attack for sustain. ESO is designed for that, and imbue is designed with weaving in mind because weaving is a core mechanic of the game.

You won't tank without blocking : it can work in lower-level content, but in endgame it's a core mechanic, a mandatory one. Weaving is similar : you can forget it in lower content, but it's a core dps mechanic when you want to do your job as a dps (or as a healer, and even as a tank). Thus, imbued is a spammable in ESO because weaving is here. And if weaving was not a thing, imbued won't have been one too.

Mystrius_Archaion

RoyJade wrote: »

And if weaving was not a thing, imbued won't have been one too.

But it has a 2 second duration to get off a light attack in so even without weaving it works. So you are wrong there.

I've played many other MMOs and every last one of them has true spammables that are stronger than a weaved light attack and spammable alone because they can kill the enemy without any other input. In this game, that would be force pulse for example.
Hell, Puncturing Sweep is actually a spammable here also because it is, thankfully, rather strong and helps survivability and not interruptable(through bash anyway).

I don't consider it a spammable when it actively hurts survival by either being wasted(no damage of its own, like a buff that isn't a buff) if you can't use it properly or is not like a fighting game where you're just button mashing the same button.

Spammables do not require coordination. The key word is "require".


Is Imbue Weapons usable without a light attack or is a light attack REQUIRED? Obviously light attack is required so too much coordination required to be a true spammable.

Mystrius_Archaion

Does imbue weapons need a nerf?
No

Why?
1) It's not overpowered, period.
2) It requires coordination with a light attack, not medium.
3) It would be underpowered for anybody like me who can't weave, or in situations where those who can weave miss the mark or have to do something other than light attack like dodge or block or when lag messes with you, if it were nerfed.

So no, it isn't a problem that needs a nerf.
If anything, it could use a change to make it easier to use it for a light attack for those like me with ping 100-300 and enough random lag spikes and hands that can't weave properly.


Edit:
Why does anybody have a problem with it having a longer duration to get the light attack off?
Is it because you're afraid gankers will use it? They'lll still have other ways to kill your character so this won't matter anyway.
It would help less capable people actually use and enjoy this skill, while providing more options and allowing for unpredictable combat, if it were more forgiving with a longer timer, like empower having a 5 second timer.
It's hard to believe they haven't made empower a 2 second timer if that was reasonable. They would have done that already if that were a good idea.

RoyJade

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

But it has a 2 second duration to get off a light attack in so even without weaving it works. So you are wrong there.

Except with ranged one at long range. It's 2 second between the first input and the landed hit.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

I've played many other MMOs and every last one of them has true spammables that are stronger than a weaved light attack and spammable alone because they can kill the enemy without any other input. In this game, that would be force pulse for example.
Hell, Puncturing Sweep is actually a spammable here also because it is, thankfully, rather strong and helps survivability and not interruptable(through bash anyway).

I don't consider it a spammable when it actively hurts survival by either being wasted(no damage of its own, like a buff that isn't a buff) if you can't use it properly or is not like a fighting game where you're just button mashing the same button.

Spammables do not require coordination. The key word is "require".


Is Imbue Weapons usable without a light attack or is a light attack REQUIRED? Obviously light attack is required so too much coordination required to be a true spammable.

I disagree : spamming a skill doesn't require coordination. A spammable is a core skill in a dps rotation, and a dps rotation ask some coordination. A spammable is not a brainless skill that you use repetitively : you can use a spammable as a spamming skill since it's the highest damage input in one GCD, but it's not his job. A spammable is also called a filler sometimes, as the skill who is used when you does not refresh a dot/buff/debuff ; if you use it like that, you"re doing a dps rotation in order to optimize your damage, and so you need some coordination.
Thus, imbue is not a skill who can be spammed, but it's a spammable by ESO's standards. ESO's dps rotation require weaving, with imbue or with ever other spammables in the game (force pulse and sweeps included). So, including imbue as your spammable in your rotation will change nearly nothing.