Dummy Guilds - the answer to stop this practice?

kargen27 · May 2018

boombazookajd wrote: »

the easy way to stop this is to create a global auction house with access ports, like the banker, at most cities. (with a search function for crying out loud).

boom. problem solved.

And much much bigger problem created. Do you know what kind of havoc a few people with a lot of gold could wreak on a global auction house?

The two most obvious solutions have already been mentioned.

Winning bid the gold is gone whether the guild disbands or not.

If guild disbands trader is unavailable for that week.

If both are done there is zero incentive for a guild to bid on a trader then disband.

jazsper77 · May 2018

This has been beat to death and I have personally sent 100’s of before and after photos 9-10pm Sunday Night and 7am-9am Monday morning showing the flip of Traders .

On the PS4 NA there is a husband and wife team who are GMs and bid on 2 extra Capital Trader spots each week. A Guild I’m in purchased one of those traders for 8million which was Rawl. Rawl bid range is 3-5 mill tops. So you can see the $&&& being made on Trader flipping.

There is also another GM and 2 officer of another Mournhold Guild that bid 3-5 extra trader spots to flip. Cost is the following
Shornhelm,Windhelm-1.5 million
Stormhold,Vivec-million
Alikr- 900k
Marbruck,Evermore,Riften,800k

But this is also on many GMs who make it life or death to its members about having a GOOD Trader. Then members get pissed when the Guild has lost its bid. So the GM reaches out and pays double what the actual spot goes for.

So you can make 100’s of thousands if not millions each week flipping Dummy Guilds.

Getting 50 members is easy, when they just had the free ESO+ I know someone who replenished 2 of his Ghost Guilds by spamming Voice chat in the starter zones and have 75 members in each Guild within the Hr.

As many have said just leave a trader spot unavailable if a guild disbands.

Grabmoore · May 2018

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Grabmoore This issue exists on PC as well, if it is the same practise that I am thinking of.

Technically true, however noone on PC EU does this. I am GM myself and we only face small guilds bidding millions on main City traders. This is dumb as well, but not against the rules. We have no ghost traders, only a very high competition.

kargen27 · May 2018

"On the PS4 NA there is a husband and wife team who are GMs and bid on 2 extra Capital Trader spots each week. A Guild I’m in purchased one of those traders for 8million which was Rawl. Rawl bid range is 3-5 mill tops. So you can see the $&&& being made on Trader flipping."

I don't understand the logic behind this one at all. The 2nd guild is willing to spend eight million for a spot but won't bid 3-5 million? Quick solution here that doesn't involve a game change is for the 2nd guild to bid to win and if they don't win don't purchase the trader from the guild that did win.
If you are sure the trader you are bidding on is going to be flipped then be there at the correct time and see if you can snipe it for the 10K.

Lissiexx · May 2018

Jasper so who at Zeni have you spoken to and what has been their response?
I appreciate this has been talked about before but it has not been resolved and about to get much worse on PS4 EU so we need a solution and one that Zeni is prepared to act on and implement.

jazsper77 · May 2018

It has been done thru support with tickets. But when you get a response that says as a GM myself I feel your pain blah blah blah. Makes you wonder why changes have never happened with the Trader system.

jazsper77 · May 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

"On the PS4 NA there is a husband and wife team who are GMs and bid on 2 extra Capital Trader spots each week. A Guild I’m in purchased one of those traders for 8million which was Rawl. Rawl bid range is 3-5 mill tops. So you can see the $&&& being made on Trader flipping."

I don't understand the logic behind this one at all. The 2nd guild is willing to spend eight million for a spot but won't bid 3-5 million? Quick solution here that doesn't involve a game change is for the 2nd guild to bid to win and if they don't win don't purchase the trader from the guild that did win.
If you are sure the trader you are bidding on is going to be flipped then be there at the correct time and see if you can snipe it for the 10K.

What is there not to understand. Each capital city has a bid range. As a GM you build your weekly funds toward that range.
1. Ghost Traders are NOT the same one every week. So trying to guess which one is ghosted is nearly impossible. Guilds are now up to 15k a week in fees . At some point you have limits.

2. Lol nobody is sniping PS4 NA Capital Traders for 10k

3. The Guild that lost there bid dropped 4.25 million in Rawl and loss. They had to buy the ghost for 8 mill to keep the masses calm. Simple.

My guess is flipper dropped 5mill on spot and made 3mill profit plus I’m sure some PSN cards also

Cpt_Teemo · May 2018

Ley wrote: »

So if I am to understand this correctly, on PS4 EU server people are spending millions every week on popular guild vendor locations simply to deny others access? Are they not using the traders to sell goods? What makes them a "dummy guild"? How is this profitable practice?

They sell the guild spot for the week to the highest bidders

Fleshreaper · May 2018

Nestor wrote: »

No, the easy and best solution is to keep the gold of the guild that disbands after winning a kiosk.

I mean, the guild does not exist, right? So, no one to send the gold too.

It would stop this practice cold.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

And the guild with the next highest bid should win the kiosk.

MilwaukeeScott · May 2018

This needs to be addresses by @zos on PS4NA.

It is a huge problem.

OmniDo · May 2018

Im shocked that any here on this thread are surprised at this behavior.
Humans have always sought (and will forever continue to seek) any advantage that affords them their goals.
It doesnt matter what the price is if the human(s) in question are willing to pay it.

This includes:

Exploitation
Subversion
Manipulation
Extortion
All the above

This is no surprise.
You cannot ever have a "Fair" circumstance that is not forced, because there is no such thing as objective fairness.
The "solution" is to create a global Auction House.
The only valid reason Z0$ would continue this model is to force player competitiveness in one or all of the aforementioned categories, because it keeps players playing and thus ensures Z0$'s revenue stream.

None of this is rocket surgery, its just human behavior 101.

Lissiexx · May 2018

I am not surprised at the behaviour at all. I am surprised that this has been raised and not been dealt with as I understood it was being looked at - but time has moved on; those who are doing this are pulling more into their method of locking down town traders and are not going to stop so time for ZOS to act. People who run decent trading guilds that aren't full of goldsellers need the support of ZOS because only they can stop it!

The current system is not changing so asking for Global Auction House is not addressing the issue we have now and needs to be sorted within the current system.

FloppyTouch · May 2018

Again guild trader system is trash this is well known about on xb na the exploiting going on with large trader guilds to smaller trading guild is laughable.

Even funnier is the people trying to deny defend this practice. Even worst are the players with 5 plus account so they can be a part of as many guild traders as possible to increase there slots to sell. Extra account dont cost extra on xb.

starkerealm · May 2018

zaria wrote: »

As I read the scam work as following:
you get 50 players in your trading guild to join the dummy guild.
Guild leader take out say 10 millions from the real guild and place an bid on trader with dummy guild.
Dummy guild win the bid, guild leader then disband dummy guild and buy the free slott for 10K gold.
The bid from the dummy guild get refunded to guild leader who can then repeat next week.

I have no idea if this is correct or the missing guild name on trader is just an visual bug in line with guild sometimes report having no trader even if it has.
If true, simply not returning the gold for bid on disband will solve this.

That part is incorrect. The dummy bid is not refunded if they win and disband. If they lose the spot, and another guild wins the bid, then their bid is refunded and they can attempt again next week. If they win and disband, then that money is just gone.

For the scheme to work, the guild has to win the spot (which is possible), then they need to find a buyer who will pay more than what they bid, in order to make money. At that point, swapping out the slot is fairly trivial. However, being able to find another guild who will pay their rate is a much dicier proposition.

This doesn't mean people can't do this, but, it's a huge gamble. It's also why finding empty or near empty guild traders is fairly rare. If you do this, you have a real risk of screwing yourself over.

A far more plausible risk is a guild, "expanding" to a second kiosk, by filling their slots to 500 and starting up a new secondary guild, with the financial backing of the first. But, that's not really an abusive situation in the same way.

AlnilamE · May 2018

boombazookajd wrote: »

show previous quotes

k_hartley4349b16_ESO wrote: »

Ok whether we like the current system or not its the one we have so lets try to find a solution within the current system.

well that's my point man, there is not fix with the current system. Perhaps this trader location thing was perfect for ESO when it launched 4 years ago but now it's time to move to a global auction house.

So long as guilds have to bid on a trader weekly, there will be practices that attempt to undermine the system for ones benefit. Especially when there are only 4-5 large trading guilds that have sister-guilds that populate the largest cities.

No, it's not. Auction Houses are boring and I like ESO's system, even if there are some quirks that can be ironed out.

Nestor wrote: »

Not if they also keep the Kiosk out of play for the week. Guild that starts this does not get their money back, and no guild can pay to get the kiosk. No one gets any benefit.

No need for a complicated solution.

I actually think not being able to disband a guild that is holding a trader (or has a bid on one) is a simpler solution to the problem.

Consider this: What guild who is legitimally (sp?) trying to disband would be bidding on a trader to begin with?

starkerealm · May 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

show previous quotes

boombazookajd wrote: »

the easy way to stop this is to create a global auction house with access ports, like the banker, at most cities. (with a search function for crying out loud).

boom. problem solved.

And much much bigger problem created. Do you know what kind of havoc a few people with a lot of gold could wreak on a global auction house?

The two most obvious solutions have already been mentioned.

Winning bid the gold is gone whether the guild disbands or not.

If guild disbands trader is unavailable for that week.

If both are done there is zero incentive for a guild to bid on a trader then disband.

Yeah, I've already pointed it out, but the winning bid money is gone, anyway.

The guild trader taking a vacation for the rest of the week if the guild disbands is a very good disincentive to this, though. Probably a good idea all around. (With different mechanics for the Cyrodiil Kiosks.)

swirve · May 2018

badmojo wrote: »

From what I have read on the forums these dummy guilds bid and win a trader and then disband the guild and take the trader over with their real guild. But the problem is that apparently the game refunds your bid money when you disband your guild, meaning they get a trader for free and have plenty of extra cash to outbid other guilds.

If this is true then the players involved should catch a ban.

Lissiexx · May 2018

I agree I would like to see them unable to disband the guild then at least every innocent plyr who joined would have a chance to sell their loot if the dumb dummy guild secured the trader.

I really want a quick solution so that ZOS can act on it! If this is the simplest way then do it.

zaria · May 2018

jazsper77 wrote: »

show previous quotes

kargen27 wrote: »

"On the PS4 NA there is a husband and wife team who are GMs and bid on 2 extra Capital Trader spots each week. A Guild I’m in purchased one of those traders for 8million which was Rawl. Rawl bid range is 3-5 mill tops. So you can see the $&&& being made on Trader flipping."

I don't understand the logic behind this one at all. The 2nd guild is willing to spend eight million for a spot but won't bid 3-5 million? Quick solution here that doesn't involve a game change is for the 2nd guild to bid to win and if they don't win don't purchase the trader from the guild that did win.
If you are sure the trader you are bidding on is going to be flipped then be there at the correct time and see if you can snipe it for the 10K.

What is there not to understand. Each capital city has a bid range. As a GM you build your weekly funds toward that range.
1. Ghost Traders are NOT the same one every week. So trying to guess which one is ghosted is nearly impossible. Guilds are now up to 15k a week in fees . At some point you have limits.

2. Lol nobody is sniping PS4 NA Capital Traders for 10k

3. The Guild that lost there bid dropped 4.25 million in Rawl and loss. They had to buy the ghost for 8 mill to keep the masses calm. Simple.

My guess is flipper dropped 5mill on spot and made 3mill profit plus I’m sure some PSN cards also

3 well giving in on their demand was totally idiotic.
Let them try to fill up the trader with enough goods to make profit instead

We lost our Rawl trader one week, trader stood there a week selling junk.
Was some discussion about this is guild. We got trader back next week and has had it for half a year now after jumping from Wayrest to Rawl.

Note that PC-EU has an sort of cartel between the major trading guilds as in they will not do biding wars between members over core city traders as this will simply drive up kiosk rent an magnitude while members having far less guarantee of an weekly trader.
Second tire trading guilds is unlikely to have the gold the scammers demand.
---
And yes snatching an major trader and then offer to sell back it makes more sense than gold returned on disband who was the first theory I read about this, simply as all would do it.

So yes it might work, but again you could easy be told to have group sex with orgrims or be counter blackmailed if they see you just sell junk smart guys will offer you half of that you paid for the trader to reduce your loss.
Or you are not able to reach some in guild who can make the decision before most of the week is done

Lissiexx · May 2018

swirve wrote: »

show previous quotes

badmojo wrote: »

From what I have read on the forums these dummy guilds bid and win a trader and then disband the guild and take the trader over with their real guild. But the problem is that apparently the game refunds your bid money when you disband your guild, meaning they get a trader for free and have plenty of extra cash to outbid other guilds.

If this is true then the players involved should catch a ban.

Agree because this is an exploit - but right now I would just be happy to see a fix so they can't.

zaria · May 2018

k_hartley4349b16_ESO wrote: »

I agree I would like to see them unable to disband the guild then at least every innocent plyr who joined would have a chance to sell their loot if the dumb dummy guild secured the trader.

I really want a quick solution so that ZOS can act on it! If this is the simplest way then do it.

One question, how do you sell an trader this way?

Trading guild would see the flipper as an scammer, they will have no issues scamming him back and would assume the flipper would try to scam them.
(Note that the trade guild owner would have way more sympathy with ESO support if reporting an scam than the flipper)

maltinkilic · May 2018

I don't care much about ghost traders but there really is a problem here. Limited guild vendors. Each passing day number of ppl playing this game increases and the demand for trading spot also increases. When ghost traders are in stage this problems even surface faster. 1-2 new trading spot in each major city would be nice.

Saucy_Jack · May 2018

Here's the crux of it: if a"top-tier" guild feels it needs to rely on the dummy guild practice to get a trader, it's not a top-tier guild.

Stinkyremy · May 2018

boombazookajd wrote: »

i don't understand why would they do that?

Afaik, what the deal is they create the dummy guild, bid stupid amounts of money that no guild could beat, then delete the guild at the right time which frees up the trader spot for the real guild (their guild) to come and snag it the second the dummy guild gets the bid for basically nothing.
I don't know exactly how it works as I am not in that type of stuff but this is what I have been told by high level guild master traders.
The thing is, that there is one person on PS4 EU who has a monopoly in the game, with multiple dummy accounts with multiple trade guilds making a crap load of cash and selling gold for IRL cash. Everyone knows who it is, ZOS ARE aware of it too, and this person hasn't been banned, or the guilds and dummy guilds disbanded (a simple IP ping is all it takes).
So either ZOS do not care, are allowing it to go on as a lesser of two evils, or are possibly in some sort of collusion....

Gandrhulf_Harbard · May 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

Do you know what kind of havoc a few people with a lot of gold could wreak on a global auction house?.

Do you?

Because no matter how many times I see this lame excuse trotted out whenever someone mentions an AH, in over a decade of playing MMORPG with Auction Houses I have never once seen any evidence at all of this "havoc" you allude to; and for some of that 10 years I was playing 40+ hours a week.

All The Best

Greevir · May 2018

Can't see why they can't make it so when you disband the guild, you DON'T get your bid back and the trader goes to the next highest bid.

Nevermind, the next highest bid would have gotten their bid back and get a free trader. Nvm, just take the trader out of play for a week then.

kargen27 · May 2018

jazsper77 wrote: »

show previous quotes

kargen27 wrote: »

"On the PS4 NA there is a husband and wife team who are GMs and bid on 2 extra Capital Trader spots each week. A Guild I’m in purchased one of those traders for 8million which was Rawl. Rawl bid range is 3-5 mill tops. So you can see the $&&& being made on Trader flipping."

I don't understand the logic behind this one at all. The 2nd guild is willing to spend eight million for a spot but won't bid 3-5 million? Quick solution here that doesn't involve a game change is for the 2nd guild to bid to win and if they don't win don't purchase the trader from the guild that did win.
If you are sure the trader you are bidding on is going to be flipped then be there at the correct time and see if you can snipe it for the 10K.

What is there not to understand. Each capital city has a bid range. As a GM you build your weekly funds toward that range.
1. Ghost Traders are NOT the same one every week. So trying to guess which one is ghosted is nearly impossible. Guilds are now up to 15k a week in fees . At some point you have limits.

2. Lol nobody is sniping PS4 NA Capital Traders for 10k

3. The Guild that lost there bid dropped 4.25 million in Rawl and loss. They had to buy the ghost for 8 mill to keep the masses calm. Simple.

My guess is flipper dropped 5mill on spot and made 3mill profit plus I’m sure some PSN cards also

For the gold you are talking there are few locations that are worth trying this on so you have a good idea week to week.

Has been stated several times that ghost guilds grab a spot then disband so the real guild can pick it up for 10K. If the people stating this knows it is happening then they must know where it is happening. So they can be there and try to get lucky and hit the button between the flip. Would be rare that it worked but wouldn't take happening more than a couple of times for guilds to rethink the strategy. Even if they were offering the guild for sale to another there would still be that small opportunity. In fact a couple of guilds working together could cause all kinds of chaos it they wanted.

Again if they were willing to spend eight million why did they not bid up to eight million? Doesn't make any sense. They might have snagged that spot if they bid five.

With all that though there is a problem and the fix seems simple enough to me. Just make it so when a guild wins a bid the money is gone and the trader is available to that guild only.

Until then the guilds willing to buy a trader from another trader are almost as big a part of the problem as the guilds selling them.

Lissiexx · May 2018

zaria wrote: »

show previous quotes

k_hartley4349b16_ESO wrote: »

I agree I would like to see them unable to disband the guild then at least every innocent plyr who joined would have a chance to sell their loot if the dumb dummy guild secured the trader.

I really want a quick solution so that ZOS can act on it! If this is the simplest way then do it.

One question, how do you sell an trader this way?

Trading guild would see the flipper as an scammer, they will have no issues scamming him back and would assume the flipper would try to scam them.
(Note that the trade guild owner would have way more sympathy with ESO support if reporting an scam than the flipper)

I hope the following posts by others answer this question for you.

I am not sure what happens on other servers but certainly on PS4 EU this is largely being orchestrated by a handful of plyrs whose interest is only in selling gold. Like I said goldselling is another subject for now we need a solution and fix to this issue which appears to be happening on all servers judging by the posts.

Aliyavana · May 2018

Seems to be more of a console problem, its been a while since pc had this issue

Lissiexx · May 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

Seems to be more of a console problem, its been a while since pc had this issue

So was it an issue? or never been an issue? if it was what stopped it?