Dummy Guilds - the answer to stop this practice?

Lissiexx

So today I learn that there is an 'initiative' going on the PS4 EU server for 6-15 dummy guilds being used in top trading areas. I knew about the dummy guild thing before and thought it was unfair but I also learn today that Zenimax are aware of this and 'refuse' to do anything about or come up with a better solution to stop it.
This practice is harmful for all new and existing guilds on the server and anyone who runs a trading guild knows this.
So a good solution is?

boombazookajd

i don't understand why would they do that? If a "dummy" guild exists, I'm presuming its not an actual used trader so that would only increase the price of the other trading spots, thereby costing guilds even more to bid on a kiosk.

Can you provide some more information?

Ley

So if I am to understand this correctly, on PS4 EU server people are spending millions every week on popular guild vendor locations simply to deny others access? Are they not using the traders to sell goods? What makes them a "dummy guild"? How is this profitable practice?

Jayne_Doe

A dummy guild would have to have the gold to bid on a spot, right? Why would they do that if they have no intention of selling anything? It's just gold down the drain. I guess some people have lots and lots of gold with nothing better to do with it. Just to screw guilds over and increase prices?

Violynne

k_hartley4349b16_ESO wrote: »

I knew about the dummy guild thing before and thought it was unfair but I also learn today that Zenimax are aware of this and 'refuse' to do anything about or come up with a better solution to stop it.

Why in the world should ZoS stop this?

ZoS is probably pointing and laughing since this is about gold, and how to make more of it.

The level of hypocrisy surrounding money, real or fake, is a popcorn moment for me.

But I'm not paying 100k for a bucket of corn.

Grabmoore

Switch to PC. Problem solved.

Armatesz

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

A dummy guild would have to have the gold to bid on a spot, right? Why would they do that if they have no intention of selling anything? It's just gold down the drain. I guess some people have lots and lots of gold with nothing better to do with it. Just to screw guilds over and increase prices?

Part of the reason is either to drive price of how much a guild trader costs or to drive out competition. A lot of it is just pettiness.

Nestor

So, how easy is it to find 50 players, or even 50 accounts, to make a guild that has a store that can then bid on a kiosk? How long does it take to log to all 50 of those accounts to join a fake guild? Once they do bid on a kiosk in a prime location, where do they get the gold to make the bid? If they are doing this so a "friend" can then get kiosk, why doesn't the friend just bid themselves? Do they pay less than the original bidder? If so, how does the original bidder maintain the funds to do this?

Just curious, because I don't see how the economics or logistics of this work out. This is a money loosing situation no matter how you look at it, so how sustainable is it?

The simple and easy solution, if this is really a chronic and widespread thing, is to just leave a kiosk unpopulated if a guild disbands just after winning the bid. Something tells me it's not due to the amount of time it takes to make these guilds each week, and the risk of losing the gold during the process, not to mention the losses from the spread needed to make this even palatable to another guild.

Then again, I have seen large groups doing dumb things in a game before that is not to their benefit.

Or, just go do your shopping in another non prime city. If you vote with your wallet, this behavior that you described would stop in a week.

badmojo

From what I have read on the forums these dummy guilds bid and win a trader and then disband the guild and take the trader over with their real guild. But the problem is that apparently the game refunds your bid money when you disband your guild, meaning they get a trader for free and have plenty of extra cash to outbid other guilds.

redspecter23

The dummy guilds could each go and bid on a location in a top area. If one of them wins, they disband and the slot opens up, allowing them to sell it to the highest bidder, ideally recouping their costs. They can use it to profit or guarantee their primary guild gets a spot by essentially multiplying the number of bids they get any given week.

The simple solution is to change the way disbanding affects guild traders and keep that trader locked down for the current week even if the guild disappears. That removes most of the incentive to do it outside of trolling, which would get expensive without a way to recover your costs.

Lissiexx

So dummy guilds just bid basic 10k bid or what ever - then if the guild they want to get a trader has not been successful but a dummy guild has they disband it and they can put the guild they want in its place.

Ratzkifal

@Grabmoore This issue exists on PC as well, if it is the same practise that I am thinking of.

@Jayne_Doe The purpose of this manuver is to cut the competition off from the market to deny them the profits necessary to buy the trader in the next week. If a top tier trading guild doesn't have a trader three weeks in a row, its best traders will start looking for other trading guilds unless they are loyal.

zaria

As I read the scam work as following:
you get 50 players in your trading guild to join the dummy guild.
Guild leader take out say 10 millions from the real guild and place an bid on trader with dummy guild.
Dummy guild win the bid, guild leader then disband dummy guild and buy the free slott for 10K gold.
The bid from the dummy guild get refunded to guild leader who can then repeat next week.

I have no idea if this is correct or the missing guild name on trader is just an visual bug in line with guild sometimes report having no trader even if it has.
If true, simply not returning the gold for bid on disband will solve this.

Lissiexx

Well Nestor apparently its pretty easy - because someone is in fact making at least 6 dummy guilds every week to do this and as badmojo and redspectre said this is not losing them gold at all.


The solution to me is simple - you can't disband the guild while it holds a trader? Any reason why this could not be put in place?

Armatesz

From how much I hear people pay for a guild trader at a good spot. I can verify from a person being guildless that it is physically possible to scrounge that much amount of money to outbid prominent guild trader spots and take them successfully weekend after weekend and never utilize the guild trader afterwards. It is however extremely mentally taxing and not something I would encourage doing. I can see the potential that it could happen, but seeing it go fully the way I am thinking? I don't know if I could ever find out if others that take a slot and never put anything in them are doing it this way.

From my own experiences that I have seen I have seen far more bots take over guild traders (the ones that sell gold) to sell stuff that you can literally look through their inventory and see that it is all resources such as wax, tempers and the like as well as crafting materials.
I have seen one person who had two guild trader spots. It was all one person. But those are in the middle of nowhere. They had a dummy account run the other so he could get his two spots. Apparently anyone could outbid him if they do crafting dailies on one character.

Nestor

No, the easy and best solution is to keep the gold of the guild that disbands after winning a kiosk.

I mean, the guild does not exist, right? So, no one to send the gold too.

It would stop this practice cold.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Ley

Bid on a vendor, if you lose you get a refund, if you win then you can disband, get a refund and then snatch the spot with your actual guild? If that's true then is does seem broken.

Lissiexx

Nestor I think that would help but it wouldn't stop the practice of dummy guilds because its being able to disband straight after that allows them to put the desired guild in that spot.

Lissiexx

That is the truth Ley and it is broken because this is organised not by people who care about their members but by goldsellers but that is another subject - for now I would like to see a real solution to this and Zenimax take it onboard and do something about it.

boombazookajd

the easy way to stop this is to create a global auction house with access ports, like the banker, at most cities. (with a search function for crying out loud).

boom. problem solved.

Lissiexx

Ok whether we like the current system or not its the one we have so lets try to find a solution within the current system.

boombazookajd

k_hartley4349b16_ESO wrote: »

Ok whether we like the current system or not its the one we have so lets try to find a solution within the current system.

well that's my point man, there is not fix with the current system. Perhaps this trader location thing was perfect for ESO when it launched 4 years ago but now it's time to move to a global auction house.

So long as guilds have to bid on a trader weekly, there will be practices that attempt to undermine the system for ones benefit. Especially when there are only 4-5 large trading guilds that have sister-guilds that populate the largest cities.

Ley

k_hartley4349b16_ESO wrote: »

Ok whether we like the current system or not its the one we have so lets try to find a solution within the current system.

Most obvious solution would be not to refund the winning bid, even if the guild is disbanded.

Lissiexx

boom they just aren't going to do it - so we have to find a fix to this situation. Not refunding the bid on disbanded guilds will help but won't stop the practice imo.

Nestor

Not if they also keep the Kiosk out of play for the week. Guild that starts this does not get their money back, and no guild can pay to get the kiosk. No one gets any benefit.

No need for a complicated solution.

zaria

However if you could get refund from dummy guild I would expect this to be way more common on PC-EU.
Its not against the rules as in you can not be banned for it and ZOS could easy stop it by not refunding.

Bidding would change to who had most gold, not who who could afford the highest rent.

Lissiexx

I am all for putting that into place Nestor so how can we get it done?

Lissiexx

We need a solution to this because more guilds are getting involved in this method of gaining a town trader and while its not against the rules I doubt this is what Zenimax intended or wants people in the game to be doing with guilds.

Ley

k_hartley4349b16_ESO wrote: »

I am all for putting that into place Nestor so how can we get it done?

While the solution is fairly straight forward. There's nothing we can do to enforce this except hope that ZOS change the way this works.

strangeradnd

Would it be wrong to suggest hunting down the offenders and breaking their arms? I'm only asking, I wouldn't actually suggest this, just mentioning it.

Lissiexx

lol Stranger - hmmm would suggest a bit less 'physical' and not something that could involve prosecution irl.

Ley - this has been going on for time - and did seem to in fact be lessening but now it has increased dramatically and will put off new guilds and those making new guilds who will not be able to gain town traders through the proper process - how can that be allowed to continue?

ZOS I would implore that you make a change while there is still enough people who care about running guilds for their members to trade and not just for selling gold because the bottom line is that's what this is all about. You won't ban goldsellers well then at least make it more difficult for them!