"Why not add this type of weapon?"

tinythinker

In general the answer to the question of "Why not this type of weapon?" at minimum would involve:

• 5 new abilities, an ultimate, and a set of passives that have to be theorycrafted and balanced with regard to other skills lines, gear sets, racial bonuses, etc. (including the fact that right now the greater number of stamina weapons is a counter-weight to a greater number of magicka-based class abilities)
  
• a suite of new art and animation and sound assets for the new weapon
• a place for the new weapon in the games combat system -- not just immediate balancing (see above) but the overall fit of such a weapon in the game and a function/purpose/role that is not already covered well enough by an existing weapon.

That's just to start.

Doesn't mean ZOS won't ever do it, but it would be a long process that they would need to feel was worth the investment.

A simpler route is weapon skins.

We already have an outfit system that allows you to replace the appearance of a dagger with a sword. But, they both have similar animations, just swap out the object. To add something like a rune-and-sword look or a spellbook for spell-casters you would still need the second bullet above (a suite of new art and animation and sound assets for the new weapon) which would "reskin" a staff but the skill line and weapon functionality would remain the same. Similarly new melee weapon skins could be a simple swap or in some cases might also need new character animations/weapon movement.

To justify the cost these would be definitely be Crown Store purchases ("limited time offer to get the spellbook appearance for staves"/"try the new scythe appearance for two-handed melee today"/etc.).

Kalgert

Okay. How about adding a skill line with already existing assets that we have at our disposal?

Such as... One-handed combat? As in, only having one weapon at hand as opposed to dual wielding or having a shield on the off-hand.

Might sound impractical, but I frankly love the elbow-butting animation. And it could work with the one hand and shield tree, basically a different effect on the skills that are present, but woth the same animations (Much like how it is with Staves)

ProfessorKittyhawk

They already some assets for a polearm weapon. Between the templar spear attack and the npc's in Skywatch in Auridon outside the Fighters guild clearly using spears, the basic animations are there.

Nemesis7884

thats why rather expanding on existing weapon "types" would be the way to go such as

1h + spell for example - no new weapon type, no changes to loot table - there are still a lot of unused animations in the game (that only npc use etc.)...

finding cool skills is probably the least issue...you could even base a 1h+spell on iconic skyrim skills since it was introduced there first for nostalgia reasons such as flamethrower, ward, oakflesh, bound weapon, raise trhall etc.

AhPook_Is_Here

I don't think the martial styles of a spear are replicated by any other weapon in this game, it would need it's own sets of animation for both single handed and pole-arm style spears, and likely need 2 weapon lines to be fully explored, however 1 handed spear could overlap with a lot of s/b skills, and have new ones for thrusting, where s/b line has slashing.

I don't think any of that sounds hard though to develop, it's not like these guys aren't getting paid for their job.

tinythinker

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I don't think the martial styles of a spear are replicated by any other weapon in this game, it would need it's own sets of animation for both single handed and pole-arm style spears, and likely need 2 weapon lines to be fully explored, however 1 handed spear could overlap with a lot of s/b skills, and have new ones for thrusting, where s/b line has slashing.

I don't think any of that sounds hard though to develop, it's not like these guys aren't getting paid for their job.

That's why I was saying some will be easier (just sub in the new art asset for the weapon) and others will require new character and weapon animations. And either are still much easier/less disruptive than all new weapons with unique skill lines.

A problematic area would be ranged stamina weapons. They tend to be more unique (bola, net, sling, etc.) and wouldn't be able to just adopt the existing bow skill line with some new art assets pasted over.

BeefyMrTips

Need new magic weapon please, staves are getting old=)

Fivefivesix

Polearms. Do it ZOS

Alp

I would honestly just like a melee magicka weapon. If they used the current one-handed weapons and made some kind of spell to hold in your other hand based on the elements it wouldn't require adding anything to the current motifs. I just find staves absolutely boring. I have never used staves in any elder scrolls game and yet they are such a stable in eso.

josiahva

Something similar to this thread:

I was tanking vet Scalecaller a couple days ago with some pug group(this particular pug never made it past the first boss, but thats not the point of this story)

For some reason my UI got severely buggy and reversed the weapons I had on my bars. Front bar I have S&B and back bar I have Ice Staff....but somehow the UI bugged out and I was casting ice staff heavy attacks with my S&B visually equipped...the ice ball would fly out the tip of my sword and I would be using pierce armor with my ice staff. It was funny to watch(took me a minute to adapt to bad visual cues) but the animations really didn't look too unnatural...I really was stabbing things with my ice staff and casting spells with my sword...makes me wonder if the weapons really are just skins for the main-hand animations

TheShadowScout

tinythinker wrote: »

In general the answer to the question of "Why not this type of weapon?" at minimum would involve:

• 5 new abilities, an ultimate, and a set of passives that have to be theorycrafted and balanced with regard to other skills lines, gear sets, racial bonuses, etc. (including the fact that right now the greater number of stamina weapons is a counter-weight to a greater number of magicka-based class abilities)

You mean, like... https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii

tinythinker wrote: »

• a suite of new art and animation and sound assets for the new weapon

...depending on the weapon, a great many options could be supplemented by animations already in the game (polearms from templar skills, 2H stills, etc.) But yeah, some would need to be made up...

tinythinker wrote: »

• a place for the new weapon in the games combat system -- not just immediate balancing (see above) but the overall fit of such a weapon in the game and a function/purpose/role that is not already covered well enough by an existing weapon.

Actually... not so much.
Since new weapons would be valuable merely as -option- to fill an already filled slot in a slightly different way, because character diversity is a good thing for a game like ESO, and finding out how the differentces might affect gameplay could be fun for even old hands who already know everything that's there in and out...

tinythinker

TheShadowScout wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

• a place for the new weapon in the games combat system -- not just immediate balancing (see above) but the overall fit of such a weapon in the game and a function/purpose/role that is not already covered well enough by an existing weapon.

Actually... not so much.
Since new weapons would be valuable merely as -option- to fill an already filled slot in a slightly different way, because character diversity is a good thing for a game like ESO, and finding out how the differentces might affect gameplay could be fun for even old hands who already know everything that's there in and out...

There is no value in creating a duplicate skill line that offers nothing substantial. A "slightly different way" is a waste of limited resources as it wouldn't offer much in the way of new gameplay to enjoy or discover. Reskins are better for that. But how one defines "slightly" can vary.

To give a sense of what I mean...

STAMINA MELEE

Two-Handed: "Those who stand before me are smashed!" Frontal cleave/conal attacks with splash damage
Dual Wield: "I'll kill ya with a thousand cuts!" Single target burst with more mobility, circular AoE
One Hand & Shield: "Hold the line, lead the charge!" Tanking (blocking bonuses, debuffs)

STAMINA RANGED

Bow: "You'll die before you lay a finger on me." Evasion, mixed package for offense

(RANGED) MAGICKA

Restoration Staff: "Let the light save you." Healing, party buffs
Destruction Staff: "Face the fury of the elements!" Mixed offense, part ranged/part melee, tanking (Frost only)

Each skill line does other things, but the thematic focus of each is emphasized.

Stamina Melee is full. No need to do more than reskins.

As I mentioned above someplace, Stamina Ranged can't just be reskinned because no candidate weapons fit the Bow skill line. To add a new skill line, how would a new ranged weapon differ significantly from an evasion focus? Not saying it can't, but that would be important to justify the time and headaches. It has a mixed offensive package unlike Stamina Melee as it is the only Stamina Ranged weapon. So the new stamina weapon/skill line could take some things from bow's offense kit and let bow focus on whatever theme is left outside of evasion; or, the new ranged weapon would offer a theme outside of evasion. Maybe both.

(Ranged) Magicka is between Stamina Melee and Stamina Ranged. Both in the number of options and also in that Magicka weapons have aspects of melee and ranged combat. One obvious difference is that one is about healing, the other doing damage. The other is where they fall on the ranged/melee spectrum. For example, restoration staff has a quasi-melee aspect with Blessings of Protection. Destruction staff has both a quasi-melee aspect with Wall of Elements and a fully melee aspect with Impulse. Dual Wield from the Stamina Melee group is similar in that Hidden Dagger gives it some ranged capacity. So if we add more magicka weapons/skill lines as opposed to skins, do we take Impulse away from destruction staff and make it fully ranged? Leave it but have the new weapon(s) lean more heavily toward melee? And is a new magicka melee weapon going to just be a repeat of the stamina melee but using a different resource (if so just do this instead)? Or will it truly have it's own theme?

This is an example of what I am referring to about looking at how new weapons would fit in if they come with their own skill lines. I think your ideas could be modified just a bit to fit into new themes. For example, a new weapon skill line could focus on crowd control and area denial. Like a weapon skill that lets you have multiple active AoEs at once (maybe up to three at a time) that are very short-lived but very potent combined with a skill that drains a resource like magicka or stamina. Could work for your melee magicka or a new ranged ability.

tinythinker

Oh, forgot to add other options:

Class-based enhancements or differences with weapons (i.e. in the hands a of a Templar there is something you can do or a change to some active or passive ability that would be different in the hands of a Nightblade). For example, a chance to blind an enemy with light giving a % miss chance for a few seconds (Templar) or a chance to disorient a target with a dark chill for a few seconds. Or, this could tie into the weapon skin idea, with different classes having access to thematically distinct reskins.

Let existing stamina weapons go magicka and vice versa. They have the code already in the game to "scale off of whichever stat is higher" so the non-staff weapons could get new shimmery or glowy sets of animations indicating the user has charged or infused them with magic and let them do spell damage. They could do the same on reverse for staves only charging them with spirit or nature energy or spirit vitality something (whatever makes things like Vigor or stamina Warden skills function). A step further would be altering (just a bit) not only the animations but even a little of the function in-line with the distinct power source behind the weapon ability. Like Wall of Elements becoming swirling green vapor as a poison cloud or Ransack giving the magicka equivalents (Minor Breach rather than Minor Fracture, Minor Ward rather than Minor Resolve). Obviously exactly how these would change would need a major balance pass and while this may sound cool, it would be a massive developer migraine. Still, wanted to put out the option even if it's unrealistic.

TheShadowScout

tinythinker wrote: »

There is no value in creating a duplicate skill line that offers nothing substantial...

Wrong.

Otherwise we would not need -any- stats except one "How good you are" stat, and one random roll for -everything-

Differences, even small ones, are the spice for any game. Otherwise you can play that one way to see the story, and then forget the game and move on to the next.

If there -are- differences, then it becomes interesting again as you find out how this or that performs, what you can do and cannot so with such a setup or a different one, etc.

tinythinker wrote: »

Stamina Melee is full. No need to do more than reskins.

Tell that to all the would-be brawlers
Or the spearmen.

You also did forget all the various ranges between "melee" and "full distance ranged" - there is a lot that could be done with that...

tinythinker wrote: »

As I mentioned above someplace, Stamina Ranged can't just be reskinned because no candidate weapons fit the Bow skill line.

Historically... there were: Crossbows. Slings. Javelins. Each of those could fit into ESO, one way or another. Nothing a bow can do that a crossbow cannot (not even rate of fire, as long as its a chinese repeating crossbow :P ) Slings... are a little different, but still proved their worth on many a battlefield in antiquity... so I for one would love to see them in ESO as well. I mean, melee weapons have the "sword/mace/axe/(dagger)" options, why not give ranged stamina weapons a "Bow/Crossbow/Sling" setup as well?

tinythinker wrote: »

(Ranged) Magicka is between Stamina Melee and Stamina Ranged.

Not quite.
Yes, Bows have more high-range skills and even some range extension options.
While staves have the same basic range, but half their skills more geared towards shorter ranges - no surprise seeing how the game does not have any other melee option for magica characters at this time, duh.

But the basic range of both is still the same, which makes them "close enough" on total...

tinythinker wrote: »

Dual Wield from the Stamina Melee group is similar in that Hidden Dagger gives it some ranged capacity.

...that is somewhat mis-stated. I mean, not like S&B and 2H don't have a gap closer instead, which DW lacks, yes?

tinythinker wrote: »

This is an example of what I am referring to about looking at how new weapons would fit in if they come with their own skill lines.

Like I mentioned, one thing that could be done is have skill lines for the ranges in between. With a basic attack range of -half- what bows and staves have to allow people a mid-range -option-.

Remember, I am all about the "more options", yes?
Even when they are filling an already filled slot - as long as they did it in a different way, it would be worth it to add more diversity to the game!
After all, why should we be -forced- to take up one particular weapon if we wanted to fiull a certain role, without getting much choice? At least some skill lines offer choices between sword/mace/axe/(dagger), but there ought to be way more choices, both in skill lines and in weapons for the skill lines - after all, there -have- been such, in prior TES games! Spears! Shuriken! Crossbows! Brawling! Darts! All the staves we see NPCs use but can't get ourselves. Something other then staves to cast a casters castyness! Perhaps even flails and slings! And whatever else anyone might be able to think up. The more choices, the better! Even for a single "playstyle", more choices are -always- better, as they make the game more interesting!

tinythinker wrote: »

I think your ideas could be modified just a bit to fit into new themes. For example, a new weapon skill line could focus on crowd control and area denial.

That might make an interesting idea as well. I would think... a new kind of magic staff line, perhaps? I kinda wish people would write up such and post it in my weapon skill ideas discussion... Like I said - the more options, the better!

tinythinker wrote: »

Class-based enhancements or differences with weapons (i.e. in the hands a of a Templar there is something you can do or a change to some active or passive ability that would be different in the hands of a Nightblade)...

Ooo... I would -love- it if they added that to, say, healing staves as passive! Especially if the effect also changed (palette-shifted, like... gold beam on templar, red beam on nightblade, green beam on warden, blue beam on sorceror, orange beam on DK... )

tinythinker wrote: »

Let existing stamina weapons go magicka and vice versa....

I would hate that.
It would make no sense whatsoever if stamina characters were able to make magic staff effects by flexing their muscles, and magica characters were able to swing weapons warrior-like hard by concentrating more intensely... physical hack and slash weapons are supposed to be muscle-powered, and zap-them-all magic is supposed to be mystic-powered.

And like I said elsewhere... anyone who thinks otherwise had better bring some good arguments!

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I mean, if you disagree about the "way warriors are supposed to fight" thing I mentioned, come on, show us precedents of all the times when "stamina-build = pure warriors" use their muscles to make flashy magic attacks in fantasy stories.
Go on.
How many mystic fireballs have Conan or Hercules thrown through their strength of arm in all the stories and movies? How many bolts of lightning have Aragorn or Kull tossed around thropugh sheer physical prowess? How many orbs of holy light have Hawk and Fisher conjured by hitting harder? How many illusions have Thorin or Wulfgar called up through excessive muscle-flexing? How many healing spells have we seen Red Sonja or Xena cast with their dextrous martial arts? How many ice walls have Fafhrd or Gimli punched into existence?

I doubt you will find much in that regard in fantasy settings unless you start looking at hybrid characters like Thraxas or the Grey Mouser...

...and that is still the point I stand by when it comes to stamina for hitting someone physical weapons and magica for using flashy spells.

Darkmage1337

2-handers need a weapon crit type weapon to balance out the passives that Daggers give.
ZOS should add Polearms or Scythes (2H-only) that give passive bonus to weapon crit, just like daggers (1H), which already give passive bonuses to weapon crit. 1H & 2H swords give damage, 1H & 2H maces give physical penetration, and 1H & 2H axes give bleed damage-over-time. Daggers (1H) give weapon crit. But nothing for 2H. Do you see the imbalance?