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Make AOEs Work Like Proxy Det to Loosen Up Ball Groups?

  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    It’ll be interesting to see how they perform after the earthgore change. I’m not saying nerf as the amount of healing it’ll do will be spread out. *** like that should of never been added.

    The biggest change they could do is either lower the cast time or remove it off of ID. You do that and you’d actually have zerg balls having an issue
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    usmguy1234 wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    The biggest nerf to ball groups will be silver leash, once people learn to use it effectively :)

    Meh. I do this with chains on my dk. All they do is mist form back to their group.

    Pull them into places where they can not easily mist back before being killed. Jump off a cliff or down a keep wall as you pull them so they can't reach their buddies easily.
  • dsalter
    dsalter
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    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5076216#Comment_5076216

    basically prox det is part of the problem not the solution, the range version is nice but needs to be given far more targets to amp its damage, but anything that can be cast on self that lingers that damage/slow others is exactly what zerg trains want.
    PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread

    EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
    Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.

  • Sacredx
    Sacredx
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    I feel one of the morphs of the new skill, Time Stop, will be very interesting with ball groups. The morph, Borrowed Time, negates 5000 points of healing received if the target is stunned. This should screw up ball groups a bit.

    Conversely imagine what the organised groups will do to the pug zergs with it.
    PC NA PvP Oceanic
    The Kelly Gang [TKG]
    Highest kill streak: https://i.imgur.com/V6jJhoy.png
    KB sample: https://i.imgur.com/n7TFyZr.png
    TKG raid sample: https://youtube.com/watch?v=RkrsHg3T7pc
  • kkravaritieb17_ESO
    kkravaritieb17_ESO
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    Anrose wrote: »
    I wonder if all the people claiming “All you have to do is...” to run in a ball group have ever actually done it with any success. I’m guessing no.

    My suggestion to them is to ask one of these groups if you can play with them sometime to see what it’s all about. If you keep an open mind about it, I’m sure you’ll see there’s a lot more going on than just spamming skills.

    And then maybe, just maybe, you’ll come away with some knowledge of how your enemy operates to be able to defeat them instead of complaining about ball groups on the forums.

    Couldn't have said it better myself. People are just lazy and want everything handed to them. "Bomb groups" have been nerfed since the beginning of the game. If you re worth your salt as a group you will find a way to adapt and overcome any nerfs. Which is exactly what people that are crying about bomb groups should do for themselves. Find creative ways to adapt and overcome your opponent without expecting the divine intervention of the devs.
    Member of the glorious Zerg Squad
    Rip Banana Squad

    Lheneth -- Sorc PvP Rank 31
    Ellynna -- Templar PvP Rank 50 (No Bleaker's roleplaying involved)
    Smellynna -- Templar PvP Rank 28
    and many other chars


  • barshemm
    barshemm
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    Everyone who thinks leash is the answer to ball groups, you're wrong. I've been using Warden traps, the major maim morph even, on them since Morrowind. They figured it out a long time ago.

    Most pop immovability pops like candy, especially on their push. Even if you do yank one, it's just one dodge roll to get back to their heal spam zone.
  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    barshemm wrote: »
    Everyone who thinks leash is the answer to ball groups, you're wrong. I've been using Warden traps, the major maim morph even, on them since Morrowind. They figured it out a long time ago.

    Most pop immovability pops like candy, especially on their push. Even if you do yank one, it's just one dodge roll to get back to their heal spam zone.

    Could you elaborate on what exactly organized groups did to figure out how to counter the Frozen Gate? Your arguments don't make much sense. Immovable pot last 10 seconds only and can be used every 43 seconds.

    The range of the teleport is 23 meters. One dodge roll won't get you back to your main group. Especially if you get teleported in the middle of alot of enemies.
    Edited by frozywozy on April 24, 2018 12:12PM
    Frozn - Stamdk - AR50
    Frosted - Magplar - AR50
    Frodn - Magden - AR50
    Warmed - Magblade - AR50
    Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR44
    Necrozn - Magcro - AR32
    Twitch.TV/FrozyTV
    PvP Group Builds

    “Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas.” -Eleanor Roosevelt
    • Fix Volendrung (spawn location - weapon white on the map causing the wielder to keep it forever - usable with emperorship)
    • Remove / Change CPs System, remove current CP/noCP campaigns and introduce one 30days with lock, one with no locks
    • Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack because of bad / wrong rendering prioritization system
    • Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
    • Fix long loading screens (mostly caused by players joining group out of rendering range)
    • Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
    • Fix Balista Bolts not dealing damage on walls or doors if deployed at a certain place
    • Release bigger battlegrounds with 8 to 16 players per team and only two teams
    • Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
    • Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
    • Add a function to ignore the Claiming system of useless rewards
    • Improve the Mailing System / Rewards of the Worthy stacking
    • Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
    • Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
    • Make snares only available from ground effects abilities
    • Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
    • Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
    • Remove Block Casting through Battle Spirit
    • Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
    • Fix loading screens when keeps upgrade
    • Fix Rams going crazy (spinning around)
    • Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
    • Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
    • Introduce dynamic population
    • Lower population cap by 20%
    • Add Snare Immunity potions
    • Bring resurrection sickness
    • Fix character desync
    • Fix cc breaking bug
    • Fix gap closer bug
    • Fix health desync
    • Fix combat bug
    • Fix streak bug
    • Fix server lag
  • Anrose
    Anrose
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    barshemm wrote: »
    Everyone who thinks leash is the answer to ball groups, you're wrong. I've been using Warden traps, the major maim morph even, on them since Morrowind. They figured it out a long time ago.

    Most pop immovability pops like candy, especially on their push. Even if you do yank one, it's just one dodge roll to get back to their heal spam zone.

    You’re probably targeting the wrong players, to be honest. It’s a bad strategy to just pick someone at random and pull them out.

    Go for their support players; i.e. the rapid spammers, purge monkeys, and healers. And do it in that order. However, be ready for the group to reconverge on them. Those players will call out that they’ve been pulled, and the group leader, knowing that a main piece of their puzzle is in peril, will come back for them. So kill whomever you pull out VERY quickly.

    Know thine enemy.
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    barshemm wrote: »
    Everyone who thinks leash is the answer to ball groups, you're wrong. I've been using Warden traps, the major maim morph even, on them since Morrowind. They figured it out a long time ago.

    The major difference between chain pull and warden trap is that the latter requires line of sight from the trap to the warden for anyone to get teleported by it. This makes it easy for the victim to mistform back to their group.

    The pull on the other hand only needs line of sight at the point when it is cast, not at the point when the target gets pulled. You can fire the pull in such a way that by the time the target gets hit, you (and thus him) are now in a position that prevents him from easily re-joining his group:

    https://youtu.be/hSKjjpULHbo

    Edited by Sharee on April 24, 2018 12:44PM
  • Sandman929
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    Sometimes running a raid, I don't even talk. Every knows to just stack on crown and spam stuff, so it's super easy. Honestly, it's ridiculous that this misconception about an organized raid or "ball group" still exists, this is the definition of willful ignorance.
  • Sanct16
    Sanct16
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    Sandman929 wrote: »
    Sometimes running a raid, I don't even talk. Every knows to just stack on crown and spam stuff, so it's super easy. Honestly, it's ridiculous that this misconception about an organized raid or "ball group" still exists, this is the definition of willful ignorance.
    Sorry but I heard my favorite streamer complain about ball groups so it must be true. Stop spreading your lies.
    - EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
    AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
    EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
    AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
    AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
    EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
    AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
    AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
    EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
    EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
    DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
    DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB

    >320.000.000 AP
  • DaveMoeDee
    DaveMoeDee
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    Vilestride wrote: »
    It's intended and teamwork should always be a strong strategy.

    I like the idea of teamwork, but not much strategy is involved in just stacking up on crown and spamming heals and ultimates.

    Then what requires strategy (or, I assume, tactics)? Clearly mano-a-mano does not. If ball groups are bad for the game, it is not because it lacks strategy. The reason would presumably be based on how non-interactive combat becomes.

    Or maybe this is purely subjective, as some people like traveling in groups that strictly follow efficient tactics to gain objectives and some want more interactive combat.
    Edited by DaveMoeDee on April 24, 2018 2:15PM
  • Talcyndl
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    DaveMoeDee wrote: »
    Or maybe this is purely subjective, as some people like traveling in groups that strictly follow efficient tactics to gain objectives and some want more interactive combat.

    This. The challenges of running ball groups are primarily:

    (1) Organizing group makeup. Making sure you have the right number of particular classes, running the proper skill setup.
    (2) Calling movement and skill usage. Need to "Prox Up" at the right times. :) This can be very stressful for Crown.
    (3) Countering the movement and actions of other ball groups you run into.

    But individual players in the group have defined roles and actions. There is no room for individuals to 'freelance'. LOOK A SQUIRREL!

    And the properly built groups as a whole have very little to fear from anything other than another ball group - with the rare exception of a very well played (and timed) bomber or if they decide to stand in siege.

    Personally, with the exception of my healing Warden, I hate playing most of my characters in ball groups. The regimentation is painful and the required focus on AoEs means my normal play style (gap closers and single target damage) is a detriment to the group. Not to mention gap closers and many of the single target skills don't function particularly well in the laggy environment.

    The overall issue I have is that the play style ends up leading to more ball groups to counter the inherent power of stacked AoE and healing. Which, inevitably leads to more lag and poor experiences for everyone (the ball groups included).
    Tal'gro Bol
    PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
    http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/
  • Dreyloch
    Dreyloch
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    How about a debuff of sorts for a group of 12 or more. Less healing effectiveness, less DPS , higher ulti cost. Doesn't have to be all of those, and it's ONLY while in Cyrodiil. Even IC wouldn't count for this, because we all think IC is just PvE with overland PvP ability to attack players anyway, right?

    I used to run in a large very tight knit guild. Builds and abilities handed down from the officers and leaders etc. It actually can be very stressful listening for certain voices in comms, and acting on it with all the info flowing around. I won't explain what happened to that guild, and I left the game for over 6 months after it. I've recently come back and even with AE caps gone, it seriously seems like NOTHING has changed in PvP. There's still groups running around like we used to, and depending on the time of day and what faction your on, there really isn't much to stop them unless another guild comes up doing the same thing, or the pugs just eventually overwhelm them. Something really needs to change, and drastically.

    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    Dreyloch wrote: »
    How about a debuff of sorts for a group of 12 or more. Less healing effectiveness, less DPS , higher ulti cost. Doesn't have to be all of those, and it's ONLY while in Cyrodiil. Even IC wouldn't count for this, because we all think IC is just PvE with overland PvP ability to attack players anyway, right?

    I used to run in a large very tight knit guild. Builds and abilities handed down from the officers and leaders etc. It actually can be very stressful listening for certain voices in comms, and acting on it with all the info flowing around. I won't explain what happened to that guild, and I left the game for over 6 months after it. I've recently come back and even with AE caps gone, it seriously seems like NOTHING has changed in PvP. There's still groups running around like we used to, and depending on the time of day and what faction your on, there really isn't much to stop them unless another guild comes up doing the same thing, or the pugs just eventually overwhelm them. Something really needs to change, and drastically.

    Like some experienced and active players mentioned already in this thread, it is very easy to counter a ballgroup, no matter its size and destroy them in a few seconds with only 6players. It's just a matter of situation awareness, positioning, patience and timing. You proc the earthgores focus targetting one player with timed shalks / proxs. Then you go back in with shalks, proxs, dawnbreakers, destro ults, steel tornadoes, negate. rip ballgroup
    Edited by frozywozy on April 24, 2018 3:37PM
    Frozn - Stamdk - AR50
    Frosted - Magplar - AR50
    Frodn - Magden - AR50
    Warmed - Magblade - AR50
    Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR44
    Necrozn - Magcro - AR32
    Twitch.TV/FrozyTV
    PvP Group Builds

    “Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas.” -Eleanor Roosevelt
    • Fix Volendrung (spawn location - weapon white on the map causing the wielder to keep it forever - usable with emperorship)
    • Remove / Change CPs System, remove current CP/noCP campaigns and introduce one 30days with lock, one with no locks
    • Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack because of bad / wrong rendering prioritization system
    • Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
    • Fix long loading screens (mostly caused by players joining group out of rendering range)
    • Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
    • Fix Balista Bolts not dealing damage on walls or doors if deployed at a certain place
    • Release bigger battlegrounds with 8 to 16 players per team and only two teams
    • Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
    • Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
    • Add a function to ignore the Claiming system of useless rewards
    • Improve the Mailing System / Rewards of the Worthy stacking
    • Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
    • Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
    • Make snares only available from ground effects abilities
    • Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
    • Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
    • Remove Block Casting through Battle Spirit
    • Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
    • Fix loading screens when keeps upgrade
    • Fix Rams going crazy (spinning around)
    • Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
    • Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
    • Introduce dynamic population
    • Lower population cap by 20%
    • Add Snare Immunity potions
    • Bring resurrection sickness
    • Fix character desync
    • Fix cc breaking bug
    • Fix gap closer bug
    • Fix health desync
    • Fix combat bug
    • Fix streak bug
    • Fix server lag
  • dsalter
    dsalter
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    frozywozy wrote: »
    Dreyloch wrote: »
    How about a debuff of sorts for a group of 12 or more. Less healing effectiveness, less DPS , higher ulti cost. Doesn't have to be all of those, and it's ONLY while in Cyrodiil. Even IC wouldn't count for this, because we all think IC is just PvE with overland PvP ability to attack players anyway, right?

    I used to run in a large very tight knit guild. Builds and abilities handed down from the officers and leaders etc. It actually can be very stressful listening for certain voices in comms, and acting on it with all the info flowing around. I won't explain what happened to that guild, and I left the game for over 6 months after it. I've recently come back and even with AE caps gone, it seriously seems like NOTHING has changed in PvP. There's still groups running around like we used to, and depending on the time of day and what faction your on, there really isn't much to stop them unless another guild comes up doing the same thing, or the pugs just eventually overwhelm them. Something really needs to change, and drastically.

    Like some experienced and active players mentioned already in this thread, it is very easy to counter a ballgroup, no matter its size and destroy them in a few seconds with only 6players. It's just a matter of situation awareness, positioning, patience and timing. You proc the earthgores focus targetting one player with timed shalks / proxs. Then you go back in with shalks, proxs, dawnbreakers, destro ults, steel tornadoes, negate. rip ballgroup

    on paper this works. but theres a key factor everyone keeps leaving out.
    ball groups are made of PEOPLE not NPC's, they to will be ready to adapt to cover their very limited weakness.
    PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread

    EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
    Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.

  • Irylia
    Irylia
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    We need something to discourage faction stacking.
    Players should spread out more and have a multitude of mini fights for various objectives around cyrodiil. Even the large unused areas on the map.
    Edited by Irylia on April 26, 2018 4:30PM
  • Dreyloch
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    Irylia wrote: »
    We need something to discourage faction stacking.
    Players should spread out more and have a multitude of mini fights for various objectives around cyrodiil. Even the large unused areas on the map.

    I am hoping the suggested new/old Cyro quests coming back will help with that. It won't cure it, but some guilds/groups of players might spread a bit just to get the quests done. Any 3 keeps, any 3 resources. All 3 towns is one that could spread some forces around, and I really wish they'd make the other quests specific to which resource or keep etc. Make them non-shareable too. This way guilds can't just keep sharing into any one faction area on the map. They'll have to travel some.
    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • Sacredx
    Sacredx
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    Irylia wrote: »
    We need something to discourage faction stacking.
    Players should spread out more and have a multitude of mini fights for various objectives around cyrodiil. Even the large unused areas on the map.

    Players should do whatever they want to. And we definitely don't need any rules that say you can't do this or that. It's an open game that allows freedom to choose and should stay that way.
    PC NA PvP Oceanic
    The Kelly Gang [TKG]
    Highest kill streak: https://i.imgur.com/V6jJhoy.png
    KB sample: https://i.imgur.com/n7TFyZr.png
    TKG raid sample: https://youtube.com/watch?v=RkrsHg3T7pc
  • Irylia
    Irylia
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    Sacredx wrote: »
    Irylia wrote: »
    We need something to discourage faction stacking.
    Players should spread out more and have a multitude of mini fights for various objectives around cyrodiil. Even the large unused areas on the map.

    Players should do whatever they want to. And we definitely don't need any rules that say you can't do this or that. It's an open game that allows freedom to choose and should stay that way.

    Right so just 40v40 back and forth between bleaks/ales for hours like the sheep you are.

    Encourage actual gameplay that isn’t hinging on numbers but players learning how to kill and play at a smaller scale.

    But hey, Why not just keep lightning heavy attacking your way down to ales with the zerg. You are doing a lot.
  • ak_pvp
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    Remove AoE secondary effect cap.

    As of now, a stun can only stun 6 targets, same with a root, same with other secondary affects such as AoE based healing on jabs/draw, and same with the secondary effect of meteor. They should uncap that so if 20 people stand in stupid, they get hurt.

    On meteor, before anyone calls OP. If a zerg can drop 20 meteors on you, you should at least gain something for hitting them all.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Micah_Bayer
    Micah_Bayer
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    Goshua wrote: »
    It's not needed? If you can't kill a large group of players with the changes already made, then you will never be able to kill them.

    After recent AoE cap removal, in theory a 24 man is no stronger than a 6 man survivability wise, with the exception of retreating maneuvers and having access to a higher amount of negates. Other than that the only advantage they have is more damage / higher sustain. It's never been easier in ESO history to wipe a raid than it is now.

    ya what? You proceed to list every advantage they have, even excluding healing and support tools which matter, yet suggest they are no stronger than a six man? I'm confused.

    I said they are no stronger than a 6 man from a survivability perspective. As in, the amount of damage required to kill 6 players is the same to kill 24 players. And this thread was talking about increasing the damage.

    You need heals to survive. Mire people equal more heals..mire heals equal better survivability
  • Thogard
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    I’m not against the damage a ball group can do.

    They’re designed to fight unorganized zergs. They’re good at it. Good for them.

    But if you’ve got a ton of Magicka users standing on top of each other, they need to be vulnerable. There needs to be a counter.

    That counter SHOULD be a coordinate ult dump by a highly mobile Stam team that hits and runs.

    Sadly this wasn’t very easy to do before because the AOE caps reduced the damage that most players in the group took.

    Then they removed the AOE caps, but added earthgore.

    Don’t get me wrong - I think many of the ball groups are very skilled and organized. But at present, due to earthgore, stacking directly on top of each other grants them significant protection. That shouldn’t be the case. Clumping up should make them vulnerable to DBOS / AOE / negate dump from a mobile team.

    It’s still strange to me that this is the only game where an organized group of Magicka users tries to close the gap / push, while equally coordinated Stam groups try to kite and pick people off with burst dmg. That is backwards!

    When earthgore goes, they’ll have to rely on remembrance (since resto ult is technically single target and won’t save a group from a 1s burst). But remembrance can’t be cast while moving... so there’s a trade off. The ball groups that are extremely organized and skilled will still do very well, but the removal of earthgore opens up the window for counter-play, which is sorely needed.
    PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo

    Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
    YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp


  • Sacredx
    Sacredx
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    Irylia wrote: »
    Sacredx wrote: »
    Irylia wrote: »
    We need something to discourage faction stacking.
    Players should spread out more and have a multitude of mini fights for various objectives around cyrodiil. Even the large unused areas on the map.

    Players should do whatever they want to. And we definitely don't need any rules that say you can't do this or that. It's an open game that allows freedom to choose and should stay that way.

    Right so just 40v40 back and forth between bleaks/ales for hours like the sheep you are.

    Encourage actual gameplay that isn’t hinging on numbers but players learning how to kill and play at a smaller scale.

    But hey, Why not just keep lightning heavy attacking your way down to ales with the zerg. You are doing a lot.

    You clearly have no idea how some people play. Here is a sample of how some people play, taken a few days ago:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lArYZPD10I&feature=youtu.be

    Your words indicate that you are either ignorant or seem to stereotype the 'rest' of players you don't know into some mindless zerg that have no idea of group play. Try to get out some more, there's a whole world out there.
    PC NA PvP Oceanic
    The Kelly Gang [TKG]
    Highest kill streak: https://i.imgur.com/V6jJhoy.png
    KB sample: https://i.imgur.com/n7TFyZr.png
    TKG raid sample: https://youtube.com/watch?v=RkrsHg3T7pc
  • Vilestride
    Vilestride
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    Thogard wrote: »
    I’m not against the damage a ball group can do.

    They’re designed to fight unorganized zergs. They’re good at it. Good for them.

    But if you’ve got a ton of Magicka users standing on top of each other, they need to be vulnerable. There needs to be a counter.

    That counter SHOULD be a coordinate ult dump by a highly mobile Stam team that hits and runs.

    Sadly this wasn’t very easy to do before because the AOE caps reduced the damage that most players in the group took.

    Then they removed the AOE caps, but added earthgore.

    Don’t get me wrong - I think many of the ball groups are very skilled and organized. But at present, due to earthgore, stacking directly on top of each other grants them significant protection. That shouldn’t be the case. Clumping up should make them vulnerable to DBOS / AOE / negate dump from a mobile team.

    It’s still strange to me that this is the only game where an organized group of Magicka users tries to close the gap / push, while equally coordinated Stam groups try to kite and pick people off with burst dmg. That is backwards!

    When earthgore goes, they’ll have to rely on remembrance (since resto ult is technically single target and won’t save a group from a 1s burst). But remembrance can’t be cast while moving... so there’s a trade off. The ball groups that are extremely organized and skilled will still do very well, but the removal of earthgore opens up the window for counter-play, which is sorely needed.

    I do agree with these sentiment of balance and stam vs magicka strengths (how they should be, not that they are). In regards to EG I think the biggest problem is that it works for you. This is a problem with any set of the like. That being said, I do love that there is an actual viable monster helm for healing finally. Previously I believe the best set was simply bloodspawn for more remembrances which you mentioned the importance of, and also for self survivabilty.

    I would much rather see earthgore or a new healing set that simply increased the amount of healing done or something as simply as that. in this way, the healer still has to be actively doing something.
    Edited by Vilestride on April 27, 2018 11:42PM
  • Sacredx
    Sacredx
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    Yes, agree. Get rid of proc sets altogether. All they do is dumb down the skill level. You should be rewarded for gameplay, not procs.
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  • Ixtyr
    Ixtyr
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    OP, the way to de-stack groups is to remove or severely hinder stackable player-based AoEs, not empower them. The exact problem you take an issue with is the one that the dev team had when they added Proxy in the first place - it was intended as a counter to groups, and ended up only empowering them.

    Bat Swarm, Steel Tornado, Eye of Flame, Proxy Det, Sap Essence, Sleet Storm, Deep Breath, Impulse - remove or nerf them into the dirt. Make Single Target and Placed (static) AoE the highest damage, followed by Cleave/Cone damage. PBAoEs should be the lowest damage output. Then you get a game where "Ball A runs into Ball B and smashes buttons" is less prevalent. Mind you, it'll still happen, but there'd be more strategy and tactics to it - if I'm not incentivized to stack tightly, I'll spread out and send some folks to the back to mess with healers and ranged damage. I'll split the group in two and pincer enemies.

    But to really make me want to split up and not stack, you'd also need to nerf Healing Springs into the dirt. I doubt that'll ever happen, because so much of the overall game's healing is built around its use.

    This is tough, because in an open-world PvP scenario, you want people to stack to some extent. Groups should be strong, and coordinated, and therefore they should win against less organized hordes. I don't want ZOS to eliminate that. But I absolutely do want to see us move away from just "Stack up, time your damage, slam into enemy group, then do a single target here and there to finish off stragglers" meta. Stack to move, yes, but spread a bit when you engage, single target focus the priority targets, and funnel enemies into choke points where you can make use to powerful, well-placed Static AoEs. My guild has already been sort-of moving in that direction, by shifting to an emphasis on using aimed/cone DPS (Shalks & Shrouded Daggers) with the PBAoEs used more as a secondary measure, and other guilds like Dracarys also use "Cone" damage like Wall of Elements to a similar (though less pronounced) effect.

    This is a gross oversimplification of the underlying problems, and ZOS would need to consider a lot of other factors, but the gist of the solution (in my eyes, at least) is the following:

    If you want to nerf groups that stack PBAoEs and AoE Healing - then nerf those PBAoEs and AoE Healing skills. Don't give us more of them. We'll just continue to shamelessly stack them and mow people over.
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  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
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    .
    Goshua wrote: »
    It's not needed? If you can't kill a large group of players with the changes already made, then you will never be able to kill them.

    After recent AoE cap removal, in theory a 24 man is no stronger than a 6 man survivability wise, with the exception of retreating maneuvers and having access to a higher amount of negates. Other than that the only advantage they have is more damage / higher sustain. It's never been easier in ESO history to wipe a raid than it is now.

    ya what? You proceed to list every advantage they have, even excluding healing and support tools which matter, yet suggest they are no stronger than a six man? I'm confused.

    I said they are no stronger than a 6 man from a survivability perspective. As in, the amount of damage required to kill 6 players is the same to kill 24 players. And this thread was talking about increasing the damage.

    You need heals to survive. Mire people equal more heals..mire heals equal better survivability

    More people does not equal more heals. Healing cap is 6 targets.
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  • dtsharples
    dtsharples
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    Ball groups are literally the scum of Cyrodiil.
    Max group size should be reduced to 10 people.
    At least then you aren't a disgusting mindless Zerg like UF or ZS, steamrolling over people who are trying to actually PVP.
    Edited by dtsharples on May 10, 2018 2:08PM
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    dtsharples wrote: »
    Ball groups are literally the scum of Cyrodiil.
    Max group size should be reduced to 10 people.
    At least then you aren't a disgusting mindless Zerg like UF or ZS, steamrolling over people who are trying to actually PVP with some skill.

    The skill shown by the players UF and ZS "Steamroll" over is indeed great. I mean said players manage to walk in a line to the next keep and sometimes are able to place siege on their own too. I agree their skill is too much for either guild to match if group sizes were reduced good point.

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