Feedback: Mount exclusivity/prestige

OrdoHermetica

Hey ZOS (and community) -

I'm not one of the people who got a survey, but I know questions about mount exclusivity/prestige are on it, so I figure this is something that is of interest to the powers that be right now. I also just had an experience that I feel compelled to share, because... well, let me just tell the story.

So I was doing my daily writs in Vivec City before turning in for the night, and I was riding around on my Karthwolf Charger that I had bought for one of my Bosmer toons a while back (I affectionately refer to it as my anime wolf, because my Bosmer is a bit of a Princess Mononoke type). I was sitting on my mount near the Wayshrine, typing a message in one of my guild chats, when a new player stopped what they were doing to run over to me and whisper to me, "Wow! That wolf is so cool! Where did you get it?" while running in circles around the wolf to see it from every angle. Dude was clearly excited to see something like this was in the game.

I told him that I had bought it in the Crown Store a while back, and he asked me if he could get it in-game somehow. I told him that, no, it was unfortunately a Crown Store exclusive. He told me that maybe he'd save up for it - he had been considering getting ESO+ anyway, and he heard about the monthly Crowns as a bonus - and so I was forced to tell him that it wasn't available in the Crown Store anymore. He asked me why that was the case - was it bugged or something, so they had to pull it from the store? No, I answered, just artificial scarcity. He was clearly pretty bummed by that, and asked me if I knew if there would be any way to get it in the future. I didn't have the heart to tell him that the only way he'd ever likely have a chance to get this awesome wolf would be to hope it was included in a future season of Crown Crates and then gamble with real-life money for it, so I just told him that sometimes mounts come back to the Crown Store later. He said thanks, and I figured that'd be a slightly disappointing conclusion to the conversation for both of us, but then we'd go on our ways. But what happened next is what hit me the hardest, and is why I'm writing this.

He disconnected. Rather than go back to questing and exploring this fantastic world like he had been before he saw this wolf that he thought was so cool it was worth running circles around, he disconnected. I don't know why he did - maybe he suddenly had to go. But based on how excited he had been, and how disappointed he was when he realized he would likely never be able to get this mount, I think it's more likely that he got discouraged and logged. That's what got this lodged in my brain; I try to help new players get excited about this game, because I genuinely think there's a ton to be excited about, but I couldn't do that for him.

Maybe there are people out there who really enjoy having something exclusive and rare that no one outside of a select few can ever have. But for what it's worth, coming from a single player: I'm not one of them. I bought this wolf because it fit my character, and I happily bought it with Crowns because I believe in supporting games that I like. But when it comes to exclusivity, what I want more than anything is for that new player who was so ridiculously excited about this cool thing in this awesome game to be able to save up and eventually get one of his own. But he can't. And that? That sucks. That sucks a lot.

Anyway. Thanks for listening.

Mystrius_Archaion

This deserved an "awesome" tick.

This is how we really should be viewing things, either helping our fellow humans or sharing our excitement and happiness, not being selfish "look at me" types.

Sadly, more short term money comes from exclusivity and gambling loot-boxes and the ones controlling it are the selfish greedy minority(executives). They don't care about long term money because it is too slow.

Also, those of us that are helpful and fair and want to share our happiness are not powerful enough and increasingly discouraged from being social and sharing that.

Danikat

I agree. I hate having to tell other people they can't have something I've got, especially if they like it. I feel really embarrassed about it, even if they don't say anything to suggest they're jealous or think I only got it for the exclusivity.

And on the other side I love meeting people with the same mounts, costumes etc. I have. It shows we have similar tastes, if only in that one thing, and it's fun to get them together.

I'd much rather have a system where everyone is able to get the items they want, even if it's only periodically (like mounts which are only available for 1 month a year, then get swapped for something else).

Mystrius_Archaion

Danikat wrote: »

I agree. I hate having to tell other people they can't have something I've got, especially if they like it. I feel really embarrassed about it, even if they don't say anything to suggest they're jealous or think I only got it for the exclusivity.

And on the other side I love meeting people with the same mounts, costumes etc. I have. It shows we have similar tastes, if only in that one thing, and it's fun to get them together.

I'd much rather have a system where everyone is able to get the items they want, even if it's only periodically (like mounts which are only available for 1 month a year, then get swapped for something else).

I don't like limited time availability, but I do like limited time sales.
They chose the wrong method on this game. No real life store or more profitable game ever does limited time items if they don't just run out of supply. They do short term notification sales instead to catch those purchasers that are lucky or wouldn't otherwise purchase the item at full price. This is what Steam does and it works. I've bought games there on sale I haven't actually even downloaded yet and played, but the developers got my money because I know I like the game in some way. I'm supporting them one way or the other.

I do want everybody to have access to what I have and for myself to have access to the things I missed as well. I agree that it is very fun to see people with the same things, and maybe dyed the same color on their outfit. haha

OrdoHermetica

Danikat wrote: »

I agree. I hate having to tell other people they can't have something I've got, especially if they like it. I feel really embarrassed about it, even if they don't say anything to suggest they're jealous or think I only got it for the exclusivity.

This. Exactly this. I felt not only helpless, but embarrassed and almost guilty. I'm not of the "I've got mine and that's what counts" mindset - though I'm certainly competitive, this isn't a competitive game, and I get no pleasure out of having something that someone else can't have. It's not a status symbol for me in the slightest. Honestly, I'm in the weird place where if I got a radiant apex mount from one of the upcoming free crates, I'd probably... not ride it. I would feel weird doing that, because I don't actually care about them that much (they don't really suit any of my characters), but I know other people DO care about it. A lot. Enough to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars trying desperately to get one.

So... yeah. Not for me, thanks.

DoctorESO

Danikat wrote: »

I agree. I hate having to tell other people they can't have something I've got, especially if they like it. I feel really embarrassed about it, even if they don't say anything to suggest they're jealous or think I only got it for the exclusivity.

And on the other side I love meeting people with the same mounts, costumes etc. I have. It shows we have similar tastes, if only in that one thing, and it's fun to get them together.

I'd much rather have a system where everyone is able to get the items they want, even if it's only periodically (like mounts which are only available for 1 month a year, then get swapped for something else).

Yeah, I feel bad, too. "That's so cool! How did you get that? I really want it, too!!!" Uh...

SydneyGrey

I can't stand limited time availability on crown store items. It sucks for most people, and I wish they wouldn't do that.
The one that sucked the most was the limited time hair they did one time. It was a gorgeous hair, and most people weren't able to get it. That's so not fair.

And no, my posting this isn't sour grapes over the hair, because I'm one of the lucky ones who DID get it. I just know how I'd feel if I hadn't been able to.

JWKe

Exclusivity is what motivates many people to buy things at an exorbitant price. Take for instance diamonds. Blood diamonds mined in Africa are more valued than lab made diamonds. Strange considering man-made diamonds are not only cheaper but better aesthetically as well as structurally than the naturally occurring diamond. At the end of the day it's just how most human minds work folks prefer exclusivity as it sets them apart over others.

WhiteNoiseMaker

+1 awesome from me on this.

I too hate the feeling of telling someone who asks about something I got, that it's exclusive and no longer available. I don't care if ZOS thinks the limited offers make for better sales, there has to be a better business model that doesn't throw ethical behavior under the bus, much less cut off potential sales from new players that come in.

ZOS, it's sad when you can look at the way SWTOR has been handling their ingame store, and realize it's better and more player-friendly than yours, because in many ways your sub and cosmetics model has been the benchmark for ethical and player-friendly policies for a good long time. It's really over the past year, that you've kind of...changed. And not for the better. It's becoming a turn-off and I no longer recommend the game to my friends and fellow roleplayers from RL, because of the decline in what I consider to be 'good business' behavior. Please take a long hard look at your business model, and consider that you may need an Intervention.

DanteYoda

I've just returned myself after 4 years or so.. and i feel his pain tbh.. I see all the vets with cool stuff and thought i'll check the Crown store..

Nothing there honestly thats even close to what these people running around has.. I saw this person today with a awesome pet dog cream color with dark patterns all over.. Pretty much the same run down as above.. can't get it anymore crate item from the past..

I also felt like leaving when i found out i'll never get what they have and you know what else things like this does... It makes people like me instantly dislike or even down right hate Zos for these artificial scarcity.. shenanigans. I honestly came back excited but after a week or so i downright hate this company with how they treat people and their crowns store..

I still play but no where near as excited and if a better game pops up i'll probably move on. Sorry but truth..

Turelus

DanteYoda wrote: »

I've just returned myself after 4 years or so.. and i feel his pain tbh.. I see all the vets with cool stuff and thought i'll check the Crown store..

Nothing there honestly thats even close to what these people running around has.. I also felt like leaving when i found out i'll never get what they have and you know what else things like this does...

I saw this person today with a awesome pet dog cream color with dark patterns all over.. Pretty much the same run down as above.. can't get it anymore crate item from the past..

It makes people like me instantly dislike or even down right hate Zos for these artificial scarcity.. shenanigans. I honestly came back excited but after a week or so i downright hate this company with how they treat people and their crowns store..

I still play but no where near as excited and if a better game pops up i'll probably move on. Sorry but truth..

This is how I feel every time I return to SWTOR. I didn't play constantly and drop endless amounts of money into crates so I don't have anything "cool" nor can I gain access to it.

I personally think games are better when they give everyone options to pick up things they want at any time rather than having exclusives and limited time items. This is coming from someone who owns most of the pre-crate exclusive items in the game, including the Croney Scrib. I would rather others have them than feel "special" because I have something they don't have.

DanteYoda

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I've just returned myself after 4 years or so.. and i feel his pain tbh.. I see all the vets with cool stuff and thought i'll check the Crown store..

Nothing there honestly thats even close to what these people running around has.. I also felt like leaving when i found out i'll never get what they have and you know what else things like this does...

I saw this person today with a awesome pet dog cream color with dark patterns all over.. Pretty much the same run down as above.. can't get it anymore crate item from the past..

It makes people like me instantly dislike or even down right hate Zos for these artificial scarcity.. shenanigans. I honestly came back excited but after a week or so i downright hate this company with how they treat people and their crowns store..

I still play but no where near as excited and if a better game pops up i'll probably move on. Sorry but truth..

This is how I feel every time I return to SWTOR. I didn't play constantly and drop endless amounts of money into crates so I don't have anything "cool" nor can I gain access to it.

I personally think games are better when they give everyone options to pick up things they want at any time rather than having exclusives and limited time items. This is coming from someone who owns most of the pre-crate exclusive items in the game, including the Croney Scrib. I would rather others have them than feel "special" because I have something they don't have.

The funny thing is i feel my money isn't as good as others money.. Its not like i wouldn't use their crown store for things i like.. but there is nothing there i like, all the best stuff has been removed to help these "people" feel better about themselves..

heaven13

I'd love if things were available all the time (or rotated on a schedule, similar to the holiday crown store stuff) and limited sales happened rather than limited availability. I could get stuff I wanted when I wanted it, if I missed stuff I would know I could get it the next time it rotated in, and I would likely buy more stuff when they went on limited sales even if I hadn't planned on buying it initially (great analogy about Steam @Mystrius_Archaion - I'm exactly the same).

WhiteNoiseMaker

Turelus wrote: »

This is how I feel every time I return to SWTOR. I didn't play constantly and drop endless amounts of money into crates so I don't have anything "cool" nor can I gain access to it.

You realize you just missed the last three weeks of a Direct market sale right? Everything rare was available for direct purchase, and they are experimenting with going that way in the Market again, possibly as a regular change. I actually think the SWTOR market is now much friendlier than ZOS's in ESO. It's kind of sad actually that ZOS is getting worse while SWTOR got better.... :-(

Slick_007

if this is how you phrased it to them, no wonder they were upset. you could have put the same information in a much better way and that guy would probably still be around.

its a great story about how you disappointed someone by the way you dealt with them.

inthecoconut

Slick_007 wrote: »

if this is how you phrased it to them, no wonder they were upset. you could have put the same information in a much better way and that guy would probably still be around.

its a great story about how you disappointed someone by the way you dealt with them.

So not really super familiar with how Crates work. Is there a way that you can open past crates that I'm not aware of? Or even some way that lets you purchase past content directly?

adriant1978

inthecoconut wrote: »

So not really super familiar with how Crates work. Is there a way that you can open past crates that I'm not aware of? Or even some way that lets you purchase past content directly?

Nope. Sometimes they do limited time re-releases of past crates and content but you have to be in the right place at the right time for them.

KivakWolf

OP: That wasn't me, but it might as well have been me. I just started playing ESO a few days ago and while the Karthwolf Charger was not THE reason I was pushed over the edge to buy the game, I can say it was a significant factor. I absolutely love the design and when I, a complete noob, looked up the mounts available in the game I got my information from whatever source I could (because the official site doesn't have it). That source happened to be http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Mount_(Online) which, as of today, still says that the Karthwolf Charger is on sale in the crown store. So after logging in I got my wallet ready to buy and enjoy running around the world on a beautiful mount...... only to be disappointed that the information was old. In fact I came here to the forums searching for Karthwolf in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, there was another way and other people had the same wish.

Now I get a couple things: some mounts are very rare and come from bosses or events past. I've played WoW since it was in Beta and trust me, I get that. But that doesn't mean I like it either... I should have done more research, but I was too excited to play. If it were not for friends currently playing, I don't know how enthusiastic I would be to play ESO after that let down.

I guess what I am saying/hoping for is that they could be attainable at some time through some (more difficult?) method. I know it's a money grab... so why not put it on sale for the first time for cheap, then raise the price real high? Or make it attainable through some difficult means in the game? I'd pay 5x the cost for that mount. So they're missing out on my money because they're going with scarcity rather than offering it to the highest payer. I'd put a tremendous amount of effort into the game to get it too.

Just my 2-cents as a complete noob to the game.

Edit: The suggestion to add cycles to these things sounds like a great idea to me. Even if I had to wait until next August to get the mount, I'd be happy knowing that one day, with patience, I can attain it.

Rouven

Most comments I got in the past were about the orange colour on the sand-kissed ensemble on one of my characters. The only store bought dye kit I ever got. Same feeling. Sorry no longer available. And it doesn't even feel that rewarding for me either. Imagine I could say that you unlock this colour by doing x y z.

adriant1978

Heartening to see that so many here seem to be against this kind of artificial scarcity, buy it now or miss out forever mentality.

I also play SWTOR another game where people asking for older rewards and store items to return are routinely bashed on the forum for "ruining their exclusivity" and being "entitled".

heaven13

KivakWolf wrote: »

OP: That wasn't me, but it might as well have been me. I just started playing ESO a few days ago and while the Karthwolf Charger was not THE reason I was pushed over the edge to buy the game, I can say it was a significant factor. I absolutely love the design and when I, a complete noob, looked up the mounts available in the game I got my information from whatever source I could (because the official site doesn't have it). That source happened to be http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Mount_(Online) which, as of today, still says that the Karthwolf Charger is on sale in the crown store. So after logging in I got my wallet ready to buy and enjoy running around the world on a beautiful mount...... only to be disappointed that the information was old.

Now I get a couple things: some mounts are very rare and come from bosses or events past. I've played WoW since it was in Beta and trust me, I get that. But that doesn't mean I like it either... I should have done more research, but I was too excited to play. If it were not for friends currently playing, I don't know how enthusiastic I would be to play ESO after that let down.

I guess what I am saying/hoping for is that they could be attainable at some time through some (more difficult?) method. I know it's a money grab... so why not put it on sale for the first time for cheap, then raise the price real high? Or make it attainable through some difficult means in the game? I'd pay 5x the cost for that mount. So they're missing out on my money because they're going with scarcity rather than offering it to the highest payer. I'd put a tremendous amount of effort into the game to get it too.

Just my 2-cents as a complete noob to the game.

Unfortunately there are no rare mounts that come from bosses or events in this game. It's the crown store and (more often lately) the crown crates subsection of the crown store. Achievements in this game reward dyes or titles, a few have costumes, some of the harder ones have skins or polymorphs, and then I believe there are a few pets and personalities.

Most of the new content goes in the store in one form or another.

Marginis

I like that there are some things like the striped senche tiger, and the beta monkey, that indicate an amount of experience and prestige when owned. However, when an item is put up in the crown store and then taken down, it's not indicating prestige, it's indicating that you played during that specific timeframe and happened to have the funds available at that time. It doesn't mean that you've stuck with ESO for years. It doesn't mean that you were among the very first to explore Tamriel. It means irl cash and lucky timing. That isn't to say I don't like the idea of associating mount or other unlocks exclusively with certain achievements - I love, for example, that getting the Telvanni personality shows the achievement of completing that questline. What I don't like is artificially limiting supply for no reason other than to jack up prices. Honestly, if they kept half the stuff they eliminated from the crown store, in the crown store, I think they'd make more money from players who were trying to save up to get that one mount they really wanted. There's no reason collectors like myself wouldn't still collect, and, given a bit more time to save up funds, collectors would probably collect more, instead of missing one limited mount, realizing they won't have a complete collection, then giving up.

Take it from someone who got every single item from the crown store prior to crown crates, time limited stuff is cruel and unnecessary (and probably not in anyone's best interest, including ZOS's).

KivakWolf

heaven13 wrote: »

Unfortunately there are no rare mounts that come from bosses or events in this game. It's the crown store and (more often lately) the crown crates subsection of the crown store. Achievements in this game reward dyes or titles, a few have costumes, some of the harder ones have skins or polymorphs, and then I believe there are a few pets and personalities.

Most of the new content goes in the store in one form or another.

I am actually a bit shocked by this... Even more reason to not understand the whole idea of mounts not being available multiple times. Even from an artist's perspective -- whoever made the Karthwolf Charger (props to them) will not see their artwork used but for a single time. That seems a waste of valuable resources.

Marginis wrote: »

I like that there are some things like the striped senche tiger, and the beta monkey, that indicate an amount of experience and prestige when owned. However, when an item is put up in the crown store and then taken down, it's not indicating prestige, it's indicating that you played during that specific timeframe and happened to have the funds available at that time. It doesn't mean that you've stuck with ESO for years. It doesn't mean that you were among the very first to explore Tamriel. It means irl cash and lucky timing. That isn't to say I don't like the idea of associating mount or other unlocks exclusively with certain achievements - I love, for example, that getting the Telvanni personality shows the achievement of completing that questline. What I don't like is artificially limiting supply for no reason other than to jack up prices. Honestly, if they kept half the stuff they eliminated from the crown store, in the crown store, I think they'd make more money from players who were trying to save up to get that one mount they really wanted. There's no reason collectors like myself wouldn't still collect, and, given a bit more time to save up funds, collectors would probably collect more, instead of missing one limited mount, realizing they won't have a complete collection, then giving up.

Take it from someone who got every single item from the crown store prior to crown crates, time limited stuff is cruel and unnecessary (and probably not in anyone's best interest, including ZOS's).

So right! I don't understand this method... If they wanted people to play the game and spend more money, why not make mounts available after difficult in-game struggles that keep them playing and paying a sub to do so? More money in the long term by far...

WillhelmBlack

The Elk was supposed to be an exclusive limited time only mount. That popped up for free with gems recently. Seen thousands of them now, whereas before I honestly only had seen one other person riding one.

I think the only thing that was exclusive was the Senche tiger, though you can get way better variants of that now.

heaven13

I do lament the loss of my beta monkey. I had to switch accounts (my ESO was linked to husband's steam) so when I switched, the account which became his kept the monkey.

I wish there was some way to switch it but I'm 99% sure there isn't so I haven't wasted anyone's time asking. Still unfortunate.

Marginis

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

The Elk was supposed to be an exclusive limited time only mount. That popped up for free with gems recently. Seen thousands of them now, whereas before I honestly only had seen one other person riding one.

I think the only thing that was exclusive was the Senche tiger, though you can get way better variants of that now.

Exactly, time limited items are not even exclusive. So why time limit them?

And as far as the tiger (I love mine, a lot of it for the exclusivity), I kind of like how they handled it. It looks good, and retains a little bit of uniqueness, but it isn't like a must-have item, as there are many very similar senche mounts, and several way cooler ones. It just keeps it's exclusivity, as a small nod to early supporters. With these other limited items, they don't represent something like the senche tiger. If they did I might approve of them more.

Marginis

heaven13 wrote: »

I do lament the loss of my beta monkey. I had to switch accounts (my ESO was linked to husband's steam) so when I switched, the account which became his kept the monkey.

I wish there was some way to switch it but I'm 99% sure there isn't so I haven't wasted anyone's time asking. Still unfortunate.

Sorry, only one monkey per account. It's okay though, at least you don't have to clean up the monkey cage now. And yeah, it has been a bit too long to inquire now, but ZOS support may have been able to help a long time ago. They're actually really good at their job over there.

heaven13

Marginis wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I do lament the loss of my beta monkey. I had to switch accounts (my ESO was linked to husband's steam) so when I switched, the account which became his kept the monkey.

I wish there was some way to switch it but I'm 99% sure there isn't so I haven't wasted anyone's time asking. Still unfortunate.

Sorry, only one monkey per account. It's okay though, at least you don't have to clean up the monkey cage now. And yeah, it has been a bit too long to inquire now, but ZOS support may have been able to help a long time ago. They're actually really good at their job over there.

Well, it's not that I want two; just a way to move the monkey from the old account (ownership was "transferred" to my husband) to my account since I was, in fact, the beta player. It's especially irking since my husband is completely uninterested in the game and played for maybe twenty minutes so monkey has been abandoned, lol

Marginis

heaven13 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I do lament the loss of my beta monkey. I had to switch accounts (my ESO was linked to husband's steam) so when I switched, the account which became his kept the monkey.

I wish there was some way to switch it but I'm 99% sure there isn't so I haven't wasted anyone's time asking. Still unfortunate.

Sorry, only one monkey per account. It's okay though, at least you don't have to clean up the monkey cage now. And yeah, it has been a bit too long to inquire now, but ZOS support may have been able to help a long time ago. They're actually really good at their job over there.

Well, it's not that I want two; just a way to move the monkey from the old account (ownership was "transferred" to my husband) to my account since I was, in fact, the beta player. It's especially irking since my husband is completely uninterested in the game and played for maybe twenty minutes so monkey has been abandoned, lol

Nah, I understand completely. One of my friends missed the PC to console transfer deadline (even though I told him about it several times) and never completely got over the fact he lost his monkey, as he plays on console now. He ended up buying a few Telvanni themed things post-Morrowind, but completely lost interest in all crown store stuff outside of that, likely due to, at least in part, the realization of how fleeting exclusive stuff can be. You can either try to get it all, or give up on it because you can't afford to care, because you know you can't get it all. It's always painful to lose out on stuff unfairly (kinda the point of this whole thread, actually, now that I think about it).

And not saying it's likely to happen, but if you talk to ZOS support, and your husband still has access to his account and can give approval, they might be able to do something with your monkey. Can't hurt to try at least, right?

OrdoHermetica

Slick_007 wrote: »

if this is how you phrased it to them, no wonder they were upset. you could have put the same information in a much better way and that guy would probably still be around.

its a great story about how you disappointed someone by the way you dealt with them.

...literally nothing I told them was inaccurate, and I put it as mildly as possible. Additionally, I avoided telling them about the gambling mechanic.

So, tell me: how would YOU have approached telling this player that they would likely never be able to get this mount without gambling because of artificial scarcity? Do you have secret inside knowledge about how this player can get a mount that is no longer in the Crown Store and will likely only ever show up in Crown Crates without gambling for it? If so, do share. I'd love to know myself.

If you don't have that insider information, how would you have done it differently? Short of lying to them - I simply answered their questions truthfully, nothing more - I don't see what else I could have done.

OrdoHermetica

inthecoconut wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

if this is how you phrased it to them, no wonder they were upset. you could have put the same information in a much better way and that guy would probably still be around.

its a great story about how you disappointed someone by the way you dealt with them.

So not really super familiar with how Crates work. Is there a way that you can open past crates that I'm not aware of? Or even some way that lets you purchase past content directly?

No. Unless Slick here has some secret knowledge to share, they're just doing what they usually do when someone says something critical about an aspect of the Crown Store. See: their signature.