Another call to nerf Zaan

jaws343

The proc chance is so low that it is hardly worth even running this set. I was running it on my heavy attack stamdk build, which is designed around heavy and light attacks as a spammable and it rarely procced and not once did that proc kill anyone.

I stopped using this set in PVP because it isn't good for PVP. It requires it to be active for far too long before it does any worthwhile amount of damage. 5 seconds is an eternity in PVP.

The set works much better in PVE, imo.

brandonv516

Considering they looked at Earthgore and made changes I have to believe that they looked at Zaan and realized 1 of 2 things:

1. It's fine.
2. Further research is needed.

I'm going to go with 1.

tannips

Feanor wrote: »

Zaan et al. are in the game for one specific reason: It’s for new or unskilled players to have the feeling of power too when they Xv1 a good player. @Wrobel repeatedly said they wanted new players to feel powerful vs. experienced players. That’s why these things exist. Of course, he apparently didn’t think about what happens when skilled players use these sets. It is what it is. Proc sets are not going to be removed.

Which makes absolutely no sense at all. New players shouldn't be able to hop in game and magically be on par with experienced players. It's similar to saying someone with no medical experience should be able to walk into a hospital and begin treating people as effectively as a doctor who's dedicated time to his practice. That's just not reality.

brandonv516

tannips wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Zaan et al. are in the game for one specific reason: It’s for new or unskilled players to have the feeling of power too when they Xv1 a good player. @Wrobel repeatedly said they wanted new players to feel powerful vs. experienced players. That’s why these things exist. Of course, he apparently didn’t think about what happens when skilled players use these sets. It is what it is. Proc sets are not going to be removed.

Which makes absolutely no sense at all. New players shouldn't be able to hop in game and magically be on par with experienced players. It's similar to saying someone with no medical experience should be able to walk into a hospital and begin treating people as effectively as a doctor who's dedicated time to his practice. That's just not reality.

This is a game and NOT reality so please do not compare it with such. Anyways...

New players don't know how to properly use proc sets let alone get them. Zaan isnt exactly an easy set to attain.

The people you are dieing from would likely kill you without sets like Zaan. It just makes the job faster.

Rokkar8

People still defending Zaan. Just nerf it already, it is stupid OP. Main problem is that because of lag etc, you dont see beam before you have taken atleast half the proc, thats 10 k damage before you can try and counter it. It is so OP.

ShadowMonarch

Rianai wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Zaan has counters. Here is what I noticed when using it.

Sorcs use streak 1 time. Out of its range.

Doesn't always work if the enemy sits right on you when Zaan procs and spams gap closer. Had this happen last week - 2 streaks and Zaan unbroken, had to spam shields then because a 3rd streak would have get me killed ...

You are also mentioning cc as counter to Zaan, but completely ignoring that the proc user can CC you too. And with the overall damage being that high, it doesn't need to last the full duration in oder to put ridiculous pressure on the target.

Zaan doesnt connect to you and do 20k instantly, the damage grows the longer the beam is held. If your taking in big chunks it is because you have left it connected to you and not broken it. If the guy is spamming his gap closer you should have no problem being able to cc him and streak away or just ward through it. Gapclosers do not do that much damage.

You simply panic'd, lost control of the fight, and were outplayed. I'm sure if you encounter zaan more often you will get used to it and learn how to get out of it.

The high majority of players I come across just let it kill them, they make very little to no attempt to get out if its range. Then there is the small portion of good pvpers who break it almost immediately.

jaws343 wrote: »

The proc chance is so low that it is hardly worth even running this set. I was running it on my heavy attack stamdk build, which is designed around heavy and light attacks as a spammable and it rarely procced and not once did that proc kill anyone.

I stopped using this set in PVP because it isn't good for PVP. It requires it to be active for far too long before it does any worthwhile amount of damage. 5 seconds is an eternity in PVP.

The set works much better in PVE, imo.

When I first put on the set and went to test it with a friend it took me 12 light attacks to get it to proc, there are other times when it procs on the first hit. Its really just so random.

wheem_ESO

Zaan may not be a big deal in certain class matchups, but it's utterly ridiculous in others. Magicka Warden, especially if also a Vampire, gets completely wrecked by Zaan in many cases, with no realistic chance to out-range the beam. I've had 3 ticks total ~10k damage in Battlegrounds, and you almost have to get lucky to eat less ticks than that on a Mag Warden (outside of someone else helping you). Even on a Sorc with streak ready to go, there are cases where you're going to have to tank the damage for a bit, as well as all the other damage coming along with it. Maybe this isn't as much of an issue if you're running around in Cyrodiil with maxed out CP, but in no-CP BGs it's just silly.

Proc sets in general need to be brutalized by the nerfbat. Having an 8,441 Caluurion's Legacy proc landing alongside a Magblade's 6,800 Incap is dumb. As is the ever common Selene's off a Stamblade's Incap. ZOS should know by now how bad proc sets are for PvP; they've been awful in other games that existed before ESO's release, and they were awful back when every single Stam Build was running around with Viper + proc monster set of their choice, and sometimes Red Mountain along with it.

Morgul667

Zaan is broken in No-CP

Increase duration, reduce damage, make it break when LOS. Reduce downtime if you want but make it less bursty and more avoidable.

A single 2 pieces set should not hit that hard.

Rianai

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Zaan doesnt connect to you and do 20k instantly, the damage grows the longer the beam is held. If your taking in big chunks it is because you have left it connected to you and not broken it. If the guy is spamming his gap closer you should have no problem being able to cc him and streak away or just ward through it. Gapclosers do not do that much damage.

You simply panic'd, lost control of the fight, and were outplayed. I'm sure if you encounter zaan more often you will get used to it and learn how to get out of it.

The high majority of players I come across just let it kill them, they make very little to no attempt to get out if its range. Then there is the small portion of good pvpers who break it almost immediately.

Please tell me how to cc a cc immune target ...

Also i had Zaan hitting me for 23k in 3 ticks (2 seconds) once (build must me tailored arround Zaan, but still), so it is certainly possible for it to deal ridiculous damage almost instantly.

Idk how players can defend sets that can deal way more damage than most ultimates ... Is being an instakill against everyone the only definition of op?

ShadowMonarch

Rianai wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Zaan doesnt connect to you and do 20k instantly, the damage grows the longer the beam is held. If your taking in big chunks it is because you have left it connected to you and not broken it. If the guy is spamming his gap closer you should have no problem being able to cc him and streak away or just ward through it. Gapclosers do not do that much damage.

You simply panic'd, lost control of the fight, and were outplayed. I'm sure if you encounter zaan more often you will get used to it and learn how to get out of it.

The high majority of players I come across just let it kill them, they make very little to no attempt to get out if its range. Then there is the small portion of good pvpers who break it almost immediately.

Please tell me how to cc a cc immune target ...

Also i had Zaan hitting me for 23k in 3 ticks (2 seconds) once (build must me tailored arround Zaan, but still), so it is certainly possible for it to deal ridiculous damage almost instantly.

Idk how players can defend sets that can deal way more damage than most ultimates ... Is being an instakill against everyone the only definition of op?

Ohh zaan did not hit you for 23k in 2seconds, when you lie and make it that obvious the rest of your words mean nothing and it weakens the argument for your entire point of view and people who share it.

You probably lagged and all the damage/animation caught you at once. It happens all the time and is not related to just zaan.

Rianai

https://youtu.be/6YFS1vQrkZM

jaws343

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Zaan doesnt connect to you and do 20k instantly, the damage grows the longer the beam is held. If your taking in big chunks it is because you have left it connected to you and not broken it. If the guy is spamming his gap closer you should have no problem being able to cc him and streak away or just ward through it. Gapclosers do not do that much damage.

You simply panic'd, lost control of the fight, and were outplayed. I'm sure if you encounter zaan more often you will get used to it and learn how to get out of it.

The high majority of players I come across just let it kill them, they make very little to no attempt to get out if its range. Then there is the small portion of good pvpers who break it almost immediately.

Please tell me how to cc a cc immune target ...

Also i had Zaan hitting me for 23k in 3 ticks (2 seconds) once (build must me tailored arround Zaan, but still), so it is certainly possible for it to deal ridiculous damage almost instantly.

Idk how players can defend sets that can deal way more damage than most ultimates ... Is being an instakill against everyone the only definition of op?

Ohh zaan did not hit you for 23k in 2seconds, when you lie and make it that obvious the rest of your words mean nothing and it weakens the argument for your entire point of view and people who share it.

You probably lagged and all the damage/animation caught you at once. It happens all the time and is not related to just zaan.

In order for it to even hit that amount in 2 seconds, the first tick would have to be around 5000 damage. Which is impossible. Because that means that the tooltip for that players Zaan would have to be around 10K damage (more than double an actual possible tooltip for the set), assuming the player who claims to have taken 23K damage had zero resistances. A 23k zaan proc over 2 seconds would mean that the player is hitting 46K in those same two seconds in PVE and that that same player is hitting 106K damage in PVP on a full Zaan proc and 218K damage in PVE. Which is not happening.

Assuming a 5K tooltip (which is still very high) the total damage in PVP for this set over the entire duration, without resistance or blocking, would be around 52K damage. And that is in a perfect situation where the beam isn't broken or the opposing player has zero defense. In the first 3 ticks, that only equals 12K damage. But again, this is damage over 3 ticks and not instantly.

Luckylancer

ShadowMonarch, you are right if player is templer, sorc or nb but all other classes have canceling zaan issue. These 3 classes should not whine but what will magwarden do, tell me pls. Magden have litteraly 0 cc. They have terrible mobility, bad enoug to not escape from gap closer spam. Can not simply run away, can not purge, can not go invis unless you waste 45sec cd pot, can not shield that dmg.

If lag cause zaan to hit much harder, IT IS ZAAN'S PROBLEM. Other skills and procs are not as brutal as zaan. Zaan ramps up the dmg and this have HUGE synergy with zaan. Synergy is so big, it left no counter play at all other than upgrading horse's speed.

Amdar_Godkiller

flame reach or draining shot. don't leave home without them.

That being said. It could be buffed and nerfed simultaneously by decreasing the initial damage to 1500 and then increasing the amount of damage it does each second to 100% instead of 50% more. This way you'd be able to avoid over 75% of the damage by getting out of range within 3 seconds and over half of it by doing so in 4 seconds. At the same time, it would do more damage ever so slightly in PVE.


1500 + 3000 + 6000 + 12000 + 24000 = 46,500


3440 + 5160 + 7740 + 11610 + 17415 = 45,365

ShadowMonarch

jaws343 wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Zaan doesnt connect to you and do 20k instantly, the damage grows the longer the beam is held. If your taking in big chunks it is because you have left it connected to you and not broken it. If the guy is spamming his gap closer you should have no problem being able to cc him and streak away or just ward through it. Gapclosers do not do that much damage.

You simply panic'd, lost control of the fight, and were outplayed. I'm sure if you encounter zaan more often you will get used to it and learn how to get out of it.

The high majority of players I come across just let it kill them, they make very little to no attempt to get out if its range. Then there is the small portion of good pvpers who break it almost immediately.

Please tell me how to cc a cc immune target ...

Also i had Zaan hitting me for 23k in 3 ticks (2 seconds) once (build must me tailored arround Zaan, but still), so it is certainly possible for it to deal ridiculous damage almost instantly.

Idk how players can defend sets that can deal way more damage than most ultimates ... Is being an instakill against everyone the only definition of op?

Ohh zaan did not hit you for 23k in 2seconds, when you lie and make it that obvious the rest of your words mean nothing and it weakens the argument for your entire point of view and people who share it.

You probably lagged and all the damage/animation caught you at once. It happens all the time and is not related to just zaan.

In order for it to even hit that amount in 2 seconds, the first tick would have to be around 5000 damage. Which is impossible. Because that means that the tooltip for that players Zaan would have to be around 10K damage (more than double an actual possible tooltip for the set), assuming the player who claims to have taken 23K damage had zero resistances. A 23k zaan proc over 2 seconds would mean that the player is hitting 46K in those same two seconds in PVE and that that same player is hitting 106K damage in PVP on a full Zaan proc and 218K damage in PVE. Which is not happening.

Assuming a 5K tooltip (which is still very high) the total damage in PVP for this set over the entire duration, without resistance or blocking, would be around 52K damage. And that is in a perfect situation where the beam isn't broken or the opposing player has zero defense. In the first 3 ticks, that only equals 12K damage. But again, this is damage over 3 ticks and not instantly.

By a rough estimate even against a vampire taking 25% more damage if the first hit was from a 5k tool tip the TOTAL damage in 3 ticks vs 0 resistances would be roughly 17767.4375 damage or 17.7k. Against 0 RESISTANCES, no wards, no blocking.

Keep in mind its much more common to run in the low 4k range on a common build with zaan.

ShadowMonarch

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Zaan doesnt connect to you and do 20k instantly, the damage grows the longer the beam is held. If your taking in big chunks it is because you have left it connected to you and not broken it. If the guy is spamming his gap closer you should have no problem being able to cc him and streak away or just ward through it. Gapclosers do not do that much damage.

You simply panic'd, lost control of the fight, and were outplayed. I'm sure if you encounter zaan more often you will get used to it and learn how to get out of it.

The high majority of players I come across just let it kill them, they make very little to no attempt to get out if its range. Then there is the small portion of good pvpers who break it almost immediately.

Please tell me how to cc a cc immune target ...

Also i had Zaan hitting me for 23k in 3 ticks (2 seconds) once (build must me tailored arround Zaan, but still), so it is certainly possible for it to deal ridiculous damage almost instantly.

Idk how players can defend sets that can deal way more damage than most ultimates ... Is being an instakill against everyone the only definition of op?

Ohh zaan did not hit you for 23k in 2seconds, when you lie and make it that obvious the rest of your words mean nothing and it weakens the argument for your entire point of view and people who share it.

You probably lagged and all the damage/animation caught you at once. It happens all the time and is not related to just zaan.

In order for it to even hit that amount in 2 seconds, the first tick would have to be around 5000 damage. Which is impossible. Because that means that the tooltip for that players Zaan would have to be around 10K damage (more than double an actual possible tooltip for the set), assuming the player who claims to have taken 23K damage had zero resistances. A 23k zaan proc over 2 seconds would mean that the player is hitting 46K in those same two seconds in PVE and that that same player is hitting 106K damage in PVP on a full Zaan proc and 218K damage in PVE. Which is not happening.

Assuming a 5K tooltip (which is still very high) the total damage in PVP for this set over the entire duration, without resistance or blocking, would be around 52K damage. And that is in a perfect situation where the beam isn't broken or the opposing player has zero defense. In the first 3 ticks, that only equals 12K damage. But again, this is damage over 3 ticks and not instantly.

By a rough estimate even against a vampire taking 25% more damage if the first hit was from a 5k tool tip the TOTAL damage in 3 ticks vs 0 resistances again ZERO RESISTANCES, WARDS, OR BLOCKING, would be roughly 17767.4375 damage or 17.7k.

Keep in mind its much more common to run in the low 4k range on a common build with zaan.

Empty now, was using this box for math.

mod can delete.

Rianai

Did you watch the video?

There are damage increasing (de)buffs which aren't reflected by the tooltip (which is ~5k with dunmer and 100 points in thaum and ele expert alone - without any additional buffs). Like the 25% increased dmg vs vampires or the 20% more dmg after incap, exploiter passive, ... I don't know what exactly the player was running, and i'm not claiming that this is the usual dmg from Zaan, just that it happened. And even half of that is still more dmg than other sets and especially non-proc options would provide.

Also talking about "only" 12k dmg in 2 seconds as if it would be nothing, come on ... most skills including ultimates hit for less.

Zaan (and other proc sets too to some extent) enable a playstyle which allows the user to turtle with a defensive/high sustain build until the proc goes off, then cc/gapcloser spam/ulti for ridiculous pressure - which would otherwise require building for full dmg - and if it doesn't work out just rinse and repeat until the enemy makes a mistake. Absolutely disgusting to play against, even on a class that can counter Zaan relatively well.

ShadowMonarch

Luckylancer wrote: »

ShadowMonarch, you are right if player is templer, sorc or nb but all other classes have canceling zaan issue. These 3 classes should not whine but what will magwarden do, tell me pls. Magden have litteraly 0 cc. They have terrible mobility, bad enoug to not escape from gap closer spam. Can not simply run away, can not purge, can not go invis unless you waste 45sec cd pot, can not shield that dmg.

If lag cause zaan to hit much harder, IT IS ZAAN'S PROBLEM. Other skills and procs are not as brutal as zaan. Zaan ramps up the dmg and this have HUGE synergy with zaan. Synergy is so big, it left no counter play at all other than upgrading horse's speed.

1. All the other class's you mean Warden and DK? All implies a majority were as your talking about a minority.
2. Lag doesn't cause zaan to hit harder, Lag in no way increases the damage of the proc.
3. How would upgrading horse speed change anything??????
4. "Zaan ramps up the dmg and this have HUGE synergy with zaan." What? Did you just say zaan has a synergy with zaan? You make no sense.

jaws343

Rianai wrote: »

Did you watch the video?

There are damage increasing (de)buffs which aren't reflected by the tooltip. Like the 25% increased dmg vs vampires or the 20% more dmg after incap, exploiter passive, ... I don't know what exactly the player was running, and i'm not claiming that this is the usual dmg from Zaan, just that it happened. And even half of that is still more dmg than other sets and especially non-proc options would provide.

Also talking about "only" 12k dmg in 2 seconds as if it would be nothing, come on ... most skills including ultimates hit for less.

Zaan (and other proc sets too to some extent) enable a playstyle which allows the user to turtle with a defensive/high sustain build until the proc goes off, then cc/gapcloser spam/ulti for ridiculous pressure - which would otherwise require building for full dmg - and if it doesn't work out just rinse and repeat until the enemy makes a mistake. Absolutely disgusting to play against, even on a class that can counter Zaan relatively well.

Video wouldn't work.

But still, 23k damage isn't happening in PVP in 3 ticks without a 10K tooltip, or at least the initial 3-4K of the proc being buffed by around 300%. Because the damage is then cut in half in PVP. So a 4K tooltip is actually 2K initial damage in PVP and in order for this set to reach 23K damage in 3 ticks, it would need an initial hit of 5K. And I would love to know what skills/passives/sets I can stack to buff damage output by 300% that isn't an execute.

jaws343

And as a damage comparison, that is almost exactly on par with what my Greater Storm Atro hits for in the same 2 seconds. In fact, the Atro is higher. Dealing 137K damage over 25 seconds, with an initial hit of 10K, and damage ticks of 5.4K for 25 seconds in PVE. Equaling around 26K damage in 2 seconds or 13K damage in PVP. but it keeps ticking for 23 more seconds. And the atro has a larger range.

Rianai

Video should work now.

Ticks are ~ 4,2k + 8,6k + 10,3k. There might be some weird interaction between Zaan and varius damage buffs or battle spirit and how the dmg increase is calculated, wouldn't be the first time that ESO uses it's own rules when it comes to math.

But again, the dmg doesn't even need to be this ridiculous high to be op.

BohnT

Rianai wrote: »

Video should work now.

Ticks are ~ 4,2k + 8,6k + 10,3k. There might be some weird interaction between Zaan and varius damage buffs or battle spirit and how the dmg increase is calculated, wouldn't be the first time that ESO uses it's own rules when it comes to math.

But again, the dmg doesn't even need to be this ridiculous high to be op.

You got rekt by the good ol' double proc

Rianai

Death recap shows ticks separated, but it was still only 1 proc according to the dmg numbers from the addon (which tends to provide more reliable information than bugged recaps).

BohnT

Rianai wrote: »

Death recap shows ticks separated, but it was still only 1 proc.

No it works similar to the old Viper / selene. You could apply 2 hits with one proc.
Even one of the hits is ridiculous.
His ult + high damage spammable did 50% of the damage one proc did over the same time

ShadowMonarch

Rianai wrote: »

Video should work now.

Ticks are ~ 4,2k + 8,6k + 10,3k. There might be some weird interaction between Zaan and varius damage buffs or battle spirit and how the dmg increase is calculated, wouldn't be the first time that ESO uses it's own rules when it comes to math.

But again, the dmg doesn't even need to be this ridiculous high to be op.

That isn't zaan's fault that is your connection to the game server, You were already dead server side before he was on your screen client side. That is why your character speeds up rapidly right before die'ing, your client is correcting to what is on the server. Watch right after the FPS drop and right before you hit the ground, your character is moving super fast cause your client is trying to catch up to what has happened on the server.

In short You Dc'd and got killed and reconnected as you died so it looks like the entire assassination happened in about 1second. Those are not zaans first 3 ticks your seeing.

If anyone has ever experienced lag in cyrodil they know that when they reconnect to the server all the sudden everyone moves around at the speed of light to were they really are, its your client desynching from the server and then catching up.

Rianai

But wouldn't the addon show separated hits if it is actually 2 hits? Either way, 12k unavoidable dmg form a proc is still far from balanced...

ShadowMonarch

Rianai wrote: »

But wouldn't the addon show separated hits if it is actually 2 hits? Either way, 12k unavoidable dmg form a proc is still far from balanced...

Unavoidable????

Literally just move the OTHER DIRECTION.

Your a nb so hit CLOAK 1 time, instant relief even if your marked or Fear + dodgeroll, ez way to get out of it.

Your getting hit with 12k cause you have stood in its range for 4 and 5 seconds.

BohnT

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

But wouldn't the addon show separated hits if it is actually 2 hits? Either way, 12k unavoidable dmg form a proc is still far from balanced...

Unavoidable????

Literally just move the OTHER DIRECTION.

Your a nb so hit CLOAK 1 time, instant relief even if your marked or Fear + dodgeroll, ez way to get out of it.

Your getting hit with 12k cause you have stood in its range for 4 and 5 seconds.

Watch the Video and then talk about walking out of range or cloaking it. It's absurd to deal 2x the damage of an ultimate and a high damage spammable with what is considered "the weak ticks"

Mureel

tannips wrote: »

I feel that the community was pretty outspoken when it came to the fact that we didn't want to see proc sets anymore. Viper, Red Mountain, Tremorscale - nerfing how strong they were was a great thing for pvp as they were clearly overperforming. With reintroducing proc sets such as Zaan, PvP truly feels like it took one step forward and another two steps back.

Well we *** do. So there. The only thing wrong with pvp are people who cry every time something kills them.

Get over it. So boring!

tannips

This is a game and NOT reality so please do not compare it with such. Anyways...

New players don't know how to properly use proc sets let alone get them. Zaan isnt exactly an easy set to attain.

The people you are dieing from would likely kill you without sets like Zaan. It just makes the job faster.[/quote]

I never said the game was reality. I made a comparison to show how ridiculous the idea is that someone new should be just as skilled as someone who has been playing for a while. Saying that the people killing you with zaan would kill you without it is just an excuse. That same logic was used in the viper and tremorscale days. All it is is an attempt to justify letting an armor set do most of the work for you.