A DK's plea to move Expedition from Chains to Spiked Armor.

sneakymitchell

Then use chains.... the one morph where it ain’t a gap closer refunds you magic if the target is cc immune. The empower morph might not be used much other than DK that gap close and spam bunch of light attacks with thier staff or melee weapon.

Kilandros

Wow, it's blowing my mind that people are still convincing themselves that there are "stand your ground" classes left in this game. Any remnants of DKs and Templars being able to "stand their ground" died off with One Tamriel when those classes' marquise defensive abilities, Ash Cloud and Blinding Flashes, were gutted and turned into DPS abilities.

The only justification anyone can have for pretending that DKs and Templars are "stand your ground" classes is because those classes LITERALLY LACK ANY SKILLS that would allow them to be otherwise mobile. It's easy to be forced to "stand your ground" when you literally can't do anything except stand there and get kited.

But please, tell us more about the potency of Templar's House when it is a thousand times more punishing to approach a Sorc's Mines than a Templar's ritual. Has anyone actually, truly, ever thought "Oh noes that Templar ritual--I'm staying out of that." No. No one has. Daedric Mines can wreck your face if you aren't careful. Oh but beware Templar's Ritual. Don't give Templar any mobility, they have their house!

Similarly DK's ability to stand their ground is is akin to be stuck in a bear trap. Yeah I'm going to stand here, because I sure as hell can't go anywhere else. Meanwhile, I'm ironically able to stand my ground far more effectively on my Magblade because I can reset the fight at will to heal and gain resources and re-initiate when ready--I don't even have to kite or run away like a Sorc.

So yes, please tell us more about the "stand your ground" archetypes that have worked out so well for the last 2 years. And why those archetypes should preclude DKs and Templars from having any nice things because they get to STAND YER GROUND LOL.

MaxwellC

@Minno
I see where you're coming from but I just want each class to be good at one thing while skills we all have access to, can be the filler for those buffs we do not innately have.

Fighting a Stam DK isn't a problem but rather its fighting a Mag DK and that comes from a perspective of being the attacker and the one attacked. The problem I stated before was fighting through a soft cc/hard cc spam and attempting to get away would be difficult when that Mag DK now suddenly has major expedition. The ability it'll go to would be a magicka based ability which will aid in catching the target fleeing to the point they can use hard/soft ccs again.
That is my main concern especially in the current state of block casting.

Lastly regarding the buff comment... we all have access to the same buffs in the game so I'm not sure how adding another buff to that skill would suddenly increase build diversity as that refers to the sets you use and not the slot space you'd save.

Minno

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
I see where you're coming from but I just want each class to be good at one thing while skills we all have access to, can be the filler for those buffs we do not innately have.

Fighting a Stam DK isn't a problem but rather its fighting a Mag DK and that comes from a perspective of being the attacker and the one attacked. The problem I stated before was fighting through a soft cc/hard cc spam and attempting to get away would be difficult when that Mag DK now suddenly has major expedition. The ability it'll go to would be a magicka based ability which will aid in catching the target fleeing to the point they can use hard/soft ccs again.
That is my main concern especially in the current state of block casting.

Lastly regarding the buff comment... we all have access to the same buffs in the game so I'm not sure how adding another buff to that skill would suddenly increase build diversity as that refers to the sets you use and not the slot space you'd save.

I don't think classes should be good at one thing, I think they should be good at all things.
They should Excel at one thing after set, stats, and player skills.

I should be able to take my Templar and run around to catch up to sorcs/nbs without having to crutch on heals/block. And the flipside, nbs/sorcs should be able to heal difficult content.

sneakymitchell

Kilandros wrote: »

Wow, it's blowing my mind that people are still convincing themselves that there are "stand your ground" classes left in this game. Any remnants of DKs and Templars being able to "stand their ground" died off with One Tamriel when those classes' marquise defensive abilities, Ash Cloud and Blinding Flashes, were gutted and turned into DPS abilities.

The only justification anyone can have for pretending that DKs and Templars are "stand your ground" classes is because those classes LITERALLY LACK ANY SKILLS that would allow them to be otherwise mobile. It's easy to be forced to "stand your ground" when you literally can't do anything except stand there and get kited.

But please, tell us more about the potency of Templar's House when it is a thousand times more punishing to approach a Sorc's Mines than a Templar's ritual. Has anyone actually, truly, ever thought "Oh noes that Templar ritual--I'm staying out of that." No. No one has. Daedric Mines can wreck your face if you aren't careful. Oh but beware Templar's Ritual. Don't give Templar any mobility, they have their house!

Similarly DK's ability to stand their ground is is akin to be stuck in a bear trap. Yeah I'm going to stand here, because I sure as hell can't go anywhere else. Meanwhile, I'm ironically able to stand my ground far more effectively on my Magblade because I can reset the fight at will to heal and gain resources and re-initiate when ready--I don't even have to kite or run away like a Sorc.

So yes, please tell us more about the "stand your ground" archetypes that have worked out so well for the last 2 years. And why those archetypes should preclude DKs and Templars from having any nice things because they get to STAND YER GROUND LOL.

Abysswarrior45

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get awy from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

There are still snares in the game that will ignore immunity. Plus DKs are not getting immunity, but snare removal tool which they already use mist form to break up snares and have speed buffs through other means. So I fail to see how this will change how you fight DKs.

Speed and buffs should belong to all, but with unique delivery methods for each class. The access will increase build diversity while the unique delivery will keep the game from becoming too stale.

IMO Snares should be 40% 10 min, 30 max. Every spec should be able to outplay it.

DKs and templars should have snare removal. Being either an unstoppable but slower force, or the ability to purify. Wardens and NBs should have speed buffs. But no class snare immunity. Sorcs should have both, and be the true mobile class, but at a cost of being squishy.

I mean, you'd expect the light based class to be the fast one, and the tree/nature one to be the slower one but idk.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get awy from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

There are still snares in the game that will ignore immunity. Plus DKs are not getting immunity, but snare removal tool which they already use mist form to break up snares and have speed buffs through other means. So I fail to see how this will change how you fight DKs.

Speed and buffs should belong to all, but with unique delivery methods for each class. The access will increase build diversity while the unique delivery will keep the game from becoming too stale.

IMO Snares should be 40% 10 min, 30 max. Every spec should be able to outplay it.

DKs and templars should have snare removal. Being either an unstoppable but slower force, or the ability to purify. Wardens and NBs should have speed buffs. But no class snare immunity. Sorcs should have both, and be the true mobile class, but at a cost of being squishy.

I mean, you'd expect the light based class to be the fast one, and the tree/nature one to be the slower one but idk.

Yea, I'd even say that snares should be removed from the game. I think they problem is the class system wasn't fully cleaned up so there's holes in the design intent for each class.

To segway, I also think the crowd control system needs some cleaning to solidify stand your ground builds versus more mobile friendly builds. There should be about 3 types of controls:
- hard cc.
- root ccs
- and powerful escapes/debuffs that grants immunity or don't depending on their unique function.

So for example, sorcs have streak that AOE cc around them and project then across a few meters. That's what I consider a powerful escape that grants cc immunity.

Another example, gap closers that stun/grant offensive buffs; you'll lose the stun but offensively move distance. DK leap is also in this example.

An example of a powerful escape that grants a buff, but it's unique, is the nightblade shade. It grants minor maim to target (s) but only moves the caster. So it doesn't grant cc immunity.

Another example, that needs work, Templar eclipse since it grants a player limited debuff and costs cc immunity. But it doesn't work consistently like the abilities above nor does it grant a powerful buff/debuff to warrant the cc immunity. But this ability should only exist in classes that can't move easily in their kit.

I think all classes should have a way to root players but unique in how they deliver it:
- DKs have talons but also grants minor maim
- sorcs have encase that's a ranged spell
- nightblades have a ranged one that grants them major expedition
- wardens do not have a root?
- Templar does not have a root.

I would like to see wardens receive a root (I can't remember if they do or not). If they don't have a root, I think birds is a great place to put it since the birds can "grab" and thus root players in place, also the ability is dodgeable. And Templars should be able to root players, but uniquely around either their melee Spears or through their ground healing circles (like DMG an target and cause them to be immobilzed in your circle or a target impacted by burning light is seared in place). But open to discussion!

I also think all classes should be able to CC reliably:
- sorcs have ranged unblocked cc.
- nightblades have AOE fear to break block (this should be 6 targets max again, stupid incorrect nerfs lol)
- DKs have fossilized, with an immobilzed mechanic but melee ranged.
- wardens should deal increased cc attempts while issuing direct frost attacks. Something unique around frost DMG but not tied to their AOE stuns (or one of their Friday spells gives the CC.)
- Templars need javelin to do a stun, not a kickback. While I think they need an unblockable cc like the other classes, I think Templars should deal more unblocked DMG than the others as a special DMG element. So javelin could also deal it's DMG unblocked, but not undodgeable.
-

And regarding speed, I think all classes should have a unique way to gather it:
- nbs get it via mirage with dodge chance, through AOE DMG, or their siphoning ability.
- sorcs get a huge boost in armor, proc aoe DMG, and get their speed (like a lightning beserker)
- DKs should get it via wings or their armor buff. I like winds because it can be considered dragons flying and the special delivery would be it's tied to a reflect.
- wardens get the mobilty tied to major beserk or minor evaison. Like a diving hawk going to eat it's prey, except I think it needs major evaison on the other morph (5% chance is puny and honestly shouldn't exist).
- Templars didn't have this buff at all. But they should have the ability to run high speed in their circles. Or while protected by their unique health shield.

That's my rant, hope you enjoyed!

You're homogenizing every single class if you do that. Thats a terrible idea. Firstly, warden do have a root and its aids as ***. Unblock able CCs used to be limited to only NB and Dks making them unique and it was 1 more reason to play them over a different class. If you homogenize every class, certain classes (like warden atm which can do everything every other class can except better in PVP) you get a top dog and its all you ever see in Cyrodiil. GIVE CLASS IDENTITY BACK! Reflect used to be a signature dk skill now templar and warden have access to a form of one that is arguably better! Screw that. High mobility used to be something only night blades and sorcs had built in, now wardens and dks have it. Screw that.

Minno

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get awy from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

There are still snares in the game that will ignore immunity. Plus DKs are not getting immunity, but snare removal tool which they already use mist form to break up snares and have speed buffs through other means. So I fail to see how this will change how you fight DKs.

Speed and buffs should belong to all, but with unique delivery methods for each class. The access will increase build diversity while the unique delivery will keep the game from becoming too stale.

IMO Snares should be 40% 10 min, 30 max. Every spec should be able to outplay it.

DKs and templars should have snare removal. Being either an unstoppable but slower force, or the ability to purify. Wardens and NBs should have speed buffs. But no class snare immunity. Sorcs should have both, and be the true mobile class, but at a cost of being squishy.

I mean, you'd expect the light based class to be the fast one, and the tree/nature one to be the slower one but idk.

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get awy from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

There are still snares in the game that will ignore immunity. Plus DKs are not getting immunity, but snare removal tool which they already use mist form to break up snares and have speed buffs through other means. So I fail to see how this will change how you fight DKs.

Speed and buffs should belong to all, but with unique delivery methods for each class. The access will increase build diversity while the unique delivery will keep the game from becoming too stale.

IMO Snares should be 40% 10 min, 30 max. Every spec should be able to outplay it.

DKs and templars should have snare removal. Being either an unstoppable but slower force, or the ability to purify. Wardens and NBs should have speed buffs. But no class snare immunity. Sorcs should have both, and be the true mobile class, but at a cost of being squishy.

I mean, you'd expect the light based class to be the fast one, and the tree/nature one to be the slower one but idk.

Yea, I'd even say that snares should be removed from the game. I think they problem is the class system wasn't fully cleaned up so there's holes in the design intent for each class.

To segway, I also think the crowd control system needs some cleaning to solidify stand your ground builds versus more mobile friendly builds. There should be about 3 types of controls:
- hard cc.
- root ccs
- and powerful escapes/debuffs that grants immunity or don't depending on their unique function.

So for example, sorcs have streak that AOE cc around them and project then across a few meters. That's what I consider a powerful escape that grants cc immunity.

Another example, gap closers that stun/grant offensive buffs; you'll lose the stun but offensively move distance. DK leap is also in this example.

An example of a powerful escape that grants a buff, but it's unique, is the nightblade shade. It grants minor maim to target (s) but only moves the caster. So it doesn't grant cc immunity.

Another example, that needs work, Templar eclipse since it grants a player limited debuff and costs cc immunity. But it doesn't work consistently like the abilities above nor does it grant a powerful buff/debuff to warrant the cc immunity. But this ability should only exist in classes that can't move easily in their kit.

I think all classes should have a way to root players but unique in how they deliver it:
- DKs have talons but also grants minor maim
- sorcs have encase that's a ranged spell
- nightblades have a ranged one that grants them major expedition
- wardens do not have a root?
- Templar does not have a root.

I would like to see wardens receive a root (I can't remember if they do or not). If they don't have a root, I think birds is a great place to put it since the birds can "grab" and thus root players in place, also the ability is dodgeable. And Templars should be able to root players, but uniquely around either their melee Spears or through their ground healing circles (like DMG an target and cause them to be immobilzed in your circle or a target impacted by burning light is seared in place). But open to discussion!

I also think all classes should be able to CC reliably:
- sorcs have ranged unblocked cc.
- nightblades have AOE fear to break block (this should be 6 targets max again, stupid incorrect nerfs lol)
- DKs have fossilized, with an immobilzed mechanic but melee ranged.
- wardens should deal increased cc attempts while issuing direct frost attacks. Something unique around frost DMG but not tied to their AOE stuns (or one of their Friday spells gives the CC.)
- Templars need javelin to do a stun, not a kickback. While I think they need an unblockable cc like the other classes, I think Templars should deal more unblocked DMG than the others as a special DMG element. So javelin could also deal it's DMG unblocked, but not undodgeable.
-

And regarding speed, I think all classes should have a unique way to gather it:
- nbs get it via mirage with dodge chance, through AOE DMG, or their siphoning ability.
- sorcs get a huge boost in armor, proc aoe DMG, and get their speed (like a lightning beserker)
- DKs should get it via wings or their armor buff. I like winds because it can be considered dragons flying and the special delivery would be it's tied to a reflect.
- wardens get the mobilty tied to major beserk or minor evaison. Like a diving hawk going to eat it's prey, except I think it needs major evaison on the other morph (5% chance is puny and honestly shouldn't exist).
- Templars didn't have this buff at all. But they should have the ability to run high speed in their circles. Or while protected by their unique health shield.

That's my rant, hope you enjoyed!

You're homogenizing every single class if you do that. Thats a terrible idea. Firstly, warden do have a root and its aids as ***. Unblock able CCs used to be limited to only NB and Dks making them unique and it was 1 more reason to play them over a different class. If you homogenize every class, certain classes (like warden atm which can do everything every other class can except better in PVP) you get a top dog and its all you ever see in Cyrodiil. GIVE CLASS IDENTITY BACK! Reflect used to be a signature dk skill now templar and warden have access to a form of one that is arguably better! Screw that. High mobility used to be something only night blades and sorcs had built in, now wardens and dks have it. Screw that.

Something tells you you aren't going to have fun when spell crafting comes in lol.

Also, Templars don't have a reflect, we force you to take DMG when you spam direct attacks. If you want that version you can have it lol.

Honestly you can offer similar abilities with different delivery methods. You may be offering the same effects, but the way in which you use them is what can make each class differently. With spell crafting coming, I think it's important to try to think how can we have our current abilities provide class balance without giving to much attention to one type or another.

Savos_Saren

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert are you seeing this discussion? Your players are talking about the evolution of the game and offering constructive feedback.