A DK's plea to move Expedition from Chains to Spiked Armor.

Kodrac · April 2018

I like this idea. Or more specifically, I never understood why run speed was attached to a pull. I pull specifically so it'll be in my face. Why pull it just to run away from it? If anything a snare should be attached to the pull so it can't run away from me. The other morph that draws me to the target can keep the speed buff. That's more of a gap closer.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Savos_Saren
Okay why are you trying to conflate my argument?

My argument is based around the sole fact that our class is meant to stands its ground and fight, not the class that runs away while having Major resolve, major ward, and with your crazy/flawed idea, major expedition.

So I will say this again but differently; Instead of trying to give DKs (the only class I play) a unnecessary buff, how about we fix some skill costs, introduce new stamina skills, and rework our passives. You talk about our class no longer being able to stand our ground and as I pointed out, we currently stand in quick sand but that doesn't mean now we need major expedition.
Like I said if you wanna play a class that can be mobile and is similar to the DK... well go play a warden but don't try to bring that nonsense to the table.

@MaxwellC

Name the classes that have Major Resolve, Major Ward, and Major Expedition. Listen to this craziness:

-Sorcs: [Boundless Storm] Major Resolve, Major Ward, and Major Expedition. [Hurricane] Same but with Minor Expedition
-NBs: [Twisting Path] Major Resolve, Major Ward, and Major Expedition.
-Wardens: Use [Frost Cloak] then pop [Falcon's Swiftness] Major Resolve, Major Ward, and Major Expedition
-Templars: Use [Rune Focus] then pop [Hasty Prayer] Major Resolve, Major Ward, and Minor Expedition.

So... I guess it's just ludicrous to think that a class should be able to have those abilities. Damn near game breaking, huh?

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Savos_Saren
So again that falls to my first point which is why should a class that is built around standing its ground have that ability? Do note that this class is also suppose to have good CCs and in PvP a Mag DK is literally all about soft/hard cc spam as stated in my first post.

Not sure why it randomly posted but as I was also going to type.
Why should each class play the same as the very other? Volatile armor gives both of those + applies a DoT, returns damage to attacker, and also gives us increased healing by 12% so your point is?

Savos_Saren · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Savos_Saren
So again that falls to my first point which is why should a class that is built around standing its ground have that ability? Do note that this class is also suppose to have good CCs and in PvP a Mag DK is literally about about soft/hard cc spam as stated in my first post.

So, you just completely ignored that I shot down your argument? Okay... do you want me to school you next on all the CCs that the other classes have, too? I don't think it should come as a surprise to you that other classes have very strong CCs, either, huh?

I can go down the list starting with:

Warden: Permafrost, Gripping Shards, Frozen Gate

NB: Incapacitating Strike, Veiled Strike, Aspect of Terror, Soul Shred, Crippling Grasp

Sorc: Crystal Shard, Encase, Rune Prison, Daedric Mines, Streak

Templar: Focused Charge, Piercing Javelin, Eclipse

I even italicized the ones that are pretty strong in PVP. But hey... let's just ignore that, too.

Emmagoldman · April 2018

The problem I see is that it allows a class with the best passives to be tanky to also have expedition. A tank that can also sprint all over would be a little too op.

Warden needs some adjustment. The shields need a bigger cost and minor expedition needs a smaller cooldown.

A balance would be where LA and medium have the resource pool to be expedient, thus relying on kiting and los and HA built to stand ground

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Savos_Saren
You didn't school me in anything mate you simply said that "all classes have this so why can't my class have it", I get you want every class to play the same way but that's not how it should work whatsoever.
Again you wanna talk about CCs no other class CCs better than a Mag DK like seriously if you even play one you should know choking talon + fossilize is pretty much setting you up for a perma root since you just can't move. You can cite other class CCs but they do not preform no where near as good what we have.

The point stands that one of the only counters to a Mag DKs CCs which is the first post I stated (which again you completely disregarded since you wanna play that card), getting away is one of the many counters but most efficient when fighting a Mag DK and you just wanna get rid of it because you wanna move faster.

Avran_Sylt · April 2018

Mobility, is not a calling of DPS, Tanking, or Healing. It's simply a way to approach each of these roles.

DK's gain resource sustain (aka tankiness), but come at a cost of having few class mobility skills with low uptime as a form of balance.

I don't think that the skills available to the DK really reflect an understanding that this class has mobility issues, nor do I think that they should address these mobility issues by removing the issue itself. That just makes for more homogenized gameplay. Rather that they should embrace this lack of mobility, either in the form of sparse decisive movement changing abilities (Take Flight becoming targeted/untargeted AoE), or by slowing others near you down. (Inferno becoming an AoE Damage + Slow from Warmth Passive).

It is possible to make this class Warden 2.0, but in that case I think you lose a lot of gameplay identity.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

Emmagoldman wrote: »

The problem I see is that it allows a class with the best passives to be tanky to also have expedition. A tank that can also sprint all over would be a little too op.

Warden needs some adjustment. The shields need a bigger cost and minor expedition needs a smaller cooldown.

A balance would be where LA and medium have the resource pool to be expedient, thus relying on kiting and los and HA built to stand ground

@Emmagoldman

Would you consider a magSorc who shield stacks as tanky? Boundless Storm... Major Expedition
How about a StamSorc wearing Seventh Legion? Hurricane... Minor Expedition
Perhaps a SapTank NB? Refreshing Path... Major Expedition
And pretty much any Warden. Falcon's Swiftness... Major Expedition

None of these abilities require a target in order to gain expedition. They can catch up and/or get away from a fight. They're all tanky.

Vesper_BR · April 2018

Emmagoldman wrote: »

The problem I see is that it allows a class with the best passives to be tanky to also have expedition. A tank that can also sprint all over would be a little too op.

OMG... You discovered wardens... Lol

Savos_Saren · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Savos_Saren
You didn't school me in anything mate you simply said that "all classes have this so why can't my class have it", I get you want every class to play the same way but that's not how it should work whatsoever.
Again you wanna talk about CCs no other class CCs better than a Mag DK like seriously if you even play one you should know choking talon + fossilize is pretty much setting you up for a perma root since you just can't move. You can cite other class CCs but they do not preform no where near as good what we have.

The point stands that one of the only counters to a Mag DKs CCs which is the first post I stated (which again you completely disregarded since you wanna play that card), getting away is one of the many counters but most efficient when fighting a Mag DK and you just wanna get rid of it because you wanna move faster.

Again, Maxwell... name all the DK healers that spam Talons and Fossilize. Surely they don't deserve expedition, either, right?

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Savos_Saren
Again you're strawmaning lol you try to adjust your retort in a way that is suitable for you to argue against. My statement was a blanket statement regarding Mag DKs sure not all DK healers are gonna spam roots because they're focused on healing and wouldn't slot it to heal but Mag DKs who DD in PvP or Tank in PvP will be doing that. Stop trying to strawman when you don't have any ground in your argument.
Your argument is again just flawed we do not need major expedition if you wanna play a class that has those buffs then as you listed you may go play Warden,Sorcerer, and Nightblade as they're pretty much what you wanna play.

I'll stick to my DK as I've done for the past soon to be four years.

Sixty5 · April 2018

Remember that there is a skill in the Psyjic line that will grant a Magicka form of Major Expedition.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Remember that there is a skill in the Psyjic line that will grant a Magicka form of Major Expedition.

Thanks for the information @Sixty5

That's going to be insane, right? Now all these tanks will break the game by moving faster. Right @MaxwellC ? Hopefully you won't use your Unrelenting Chains or this skill in order to stay true to your nature.

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Savos_Saren
Lol mate since you couldn't win the argument now you resort to first strawmaning now you wanna obfuscate it's cool mate just remember your initial point was having a class major expedition skill which I'm strongly against and I refuted your crazy statement with the fact that YOU CAN get major expedition from other skills FoH mate.

Enslaved · April 2018

Maybe on some other skill. I am not sure about spikeshaving expedition on. On the other hand, casting inferno can give you 3-5 sec major expedition. Other morph could provide minor mending. This would give agressive DK players a chance to track down their target, while healing DKs could have more powerful heals, closing the gap between them and viable healers suck are templars. Chains should have minor expedition instead of major one, lasting for 6 seconds. I guess this would make mDK pretty mobile when in need to get away/kite/hunt down enemies.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

Enslaved wrote: »

Maybe on some other skill. I am not sure about spikeshaving expedition on. On the other hand, casting inferno can give you 3-5 sec major expedition. Other morph could provide minor mending. This would give agressive DK players a chance to track down their target, while healing DKs could have more powerful heals, closing the gap between them and viable healers suck are templars. Chains should have minor expedition instead of major one, lasting for 6 seconds. I guess this would make mDK pretty mobile when in need to get away/kite/hunt down enemies.

That's actually a really good idea, @Enslaved

My main idea is to give the expedition to an ability that doesn't require a target. It just doesn't make sense.

Emmagoldman · April 2018

@Savos_Saren sorcs can be *tanky* on one one or two builds, they crumble fast under pressure from multiple targets. Dks are way tankier as a class even with sorc shields. You cant out streak crit rushes and gap closer and if you do, your out of resources. Boundless storms is nice, fast cool down....unlike warden.

Even in dueling, magsorc has been out for a long time. Doesnt excel 1 v 1, not 1 v x, but right now is awesome in a group. I struggle the most against magdks. As a vamp, going against fire dmg, fossize amd talons, no thanks

@Vesper_BR right!!! Thats why I suggested those nerf. Tanky, sustain, and expedition.......

Blobsky · April 2018

Spiked armour already does far more than enough

Sincerely,

MagDK

Enslaved · April 2018

Blobsky wrote: »

Spiked armour already does far more than enough

Sincerely,

MagDK

Now, thats awful

Abysswarrior45 · April 2018

Blobsky wrote: »

Spiked armour already does far more than enough

Sincerely,

MagDK

Does it?

a TINY damage shield or a TINY dot? Compared to hurricane or a templars rune spiked armor does very little.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Spiked armour already does far more than enough

Sincerely,

MagDK

Does it?

a TINY damage shield or a TINY dot? Compared to hurricane or a templars rune spiked armor does very little.

I wonder if he's talking about the passives... just like how Sorcs, NBs, Wardens, and everyone else has passives with their skills.

Minno · April 2018

@MaxwellC

Mobilty needs to be defined before you can say "granted to all" or "denied to tank classes".

First and foremost the intent is for the classes to be able to heal, DMG and tank. If you say a class that stands their ground shouldn't have access to mobilty, you are violating the new design intent.

Second, mobilty has 2 designs. One through expedition+ Sprint, and another through a secondary ability (like streak). While all classes should be able to completely play all the roles, they should retain some special of their uniqueness. Sorcs can reposition with an AOE stun, nightblades can minor maim and teleport to their shade, Templars can purge debuffs Wich include snares, and DKs have a chain that let's them stay in melee range with a gap closer AOE stun ultimate. But only 2 of these classes doesnt have access to a unique way of repositioning, templars/Dks.

Everyone should have access to a way of dealing with snares and dealing with repositioning. The game is increasing adding more mobile content and thus we need to review all sources:
- sorcs have streak and major/minor expedition
- nightblades have shade, gap closer and major expedition
- DKs have gap closer/pull, major expedition only on gap closer, and unique ultimate that acts like a gap closer.
- Templar has no speed buffs, can purge snares but only capped at 5 for removal and combined with other debuffs. Has no unique way to close the distance, but has a gap closer.
- warden has major expedition, unique gap closer using allies, and unique teleport but all of those are group specific and require specific conditions.

Therefore out of all the classes, only Templar and warden requires review. DK only requires that their expedition buff be granted outside the gap closer. And since only 2 classes have access to a mobilty tool that ignores snares (3 if you consider DKs leap), it makes sense the other 3 have stronger defensive options to help shrug off attacks. But currently only Templars lack the defensive option to make full use of the lack of mobilty,.

Regardless with the shift to a highly mobile game, all classes should get speed buffs and ways to deal with snares. Speed is not a separate architype like DMG or tanking or healing, it's utility and thus should be available to all.

Abysswarrior45 · April 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Spiked armour already does far more than enough

Sincerely,

MagDK

Does it?

a TINY damage shield or a TINY dot? Compared to hurricane or a templars rune spiked armor does very little.

I wonder if he's talking about the passives... just like how Sorcs, NBs, Wardens, and everyone else has passives with their skills.

Even still. Hurricane can proc a passive execute whereas templars even excluding passives is still arguable better in terms of just being a tanky ability. 8% reduced damage on top of major ward/resolve or increased mag recov still trumps 12% increased healing and health recov since befoul is everywhere in PvP now.

stitchesofdooom · April 2018

what you guys need is AoE taunt

ak_pvp · April 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Nah. Shouldn't be fast, should have snare immunity. I wouldn't even give dk a gapcloser

So the DK healers are supposed to be stand their ground, too? That doesn't make sense, bud.

Aye all those templar heals with major expedition.

Templars are getting expedition in the next update. Apparently ZOS realizes that the healer needs to be able to keep up with the group, too.

When you advocate for you class- try not to limit your imagination to your own playstyle. I see that your signature says Blocktanking... but a healer nor DPS does that.

The sig is sarcasm. Just a joke to what the class is like nowadays. Just like craftplars.

The thing is, DK isn't a fast class, even for the healer side. (temp healers get minor exp on one morph) if you want speed, so what I do and run lingering/speed pots. Works a charm.

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get away from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

Savos_Saren · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get away from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

So you think that Sorcs, NBs, and Wardens shouldn't have Major Ward or Major Resolve because they have high mobility and burst damage?

...You'd rather take away that from those three classes instead of just accepting that DKs and Templars should get the same benefit?

Minno · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get awy from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

There are still snares in the game that will ignore immunity. Plus DKs are not getting immunity, but snare removal tool which they already use mist form to break up snares and have speed buffs through other means. So I fail to see how this will change how you fight DKs.

Speed and buffs should belong to all, but with unique delivery methods for each class. The access will increase build diversity while the unique delivery will keep the game from becoming too stale.

ak_pvp · April 2018

Minno wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get awy from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

There are still snares in the game that will ignore immunity. Plus DKs are not getting immunity, but snare removal tool which they already use mist form to break up snares and have speed buffs through other means. So I fail to see how this will change how you fight DKs.

Speed and buffs should belong to all, but with unique delivery methods for each class. The access will increase build diversity while the unique delivery will keep the game from becoming too stale.

IMO Snares should be 40% 10 min, 30 max. Every spec should be able to outplay it.

DKs and templars should have snare removal. Being either an unstoppable but slower force, or the ability to purify. Wardens and NBs should have speed buffs. But no class snare immunity. Sorcs should have both, and be the true mobile class, but at a cost of being squishy.

I mean, you'd expect the light based class to be the fast one, and the tree/nature one to be the slower one but idk.

Minno · April 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Minno
Let me correct you on the first thing I didn't state a class shouldn't have mobility I stated that this class shouldn't have major expedition to begin with. The OP could have easily made an argument about other class buffs and proposed something like minor protection and that would've been fine IMO.

With everything else you stated I can't disagree more, I believe that each class should have unique properties to them which make you feel "Interesting this class has that to offer, let me try that" or "So a sorcerer can bring high mobility and damage to the plate but my current class offers high damage and the ability to disengage, let me see which one suits my play-style".

I do not understand the current argument to which if one class has a buff then we all should have that same buff. I believe certain classes should be losing certain buffs and retain other buffs. A example would be sorcerers losing major ward/resolve because they have high mobility and damage but to throw in something that benefits their defenses just seems overkill especially when my class lacks a lot of what it relied on in the past (dynamic ultimate regen).

My main argument stems from the current PvP meta with Mag DKs I fight and people who fight my Mag DK. Simply imaging me being able to now run full speed and soon with (hopefully) a snare immunity with wings, yeah that'll be overkill and just impossible to get awy from an average Mag DK player let alone a good one.

There are still snares in the game that will ignore immunity. Plus DKs are not getting immunity, but snare removal tool which they already use mist form to break up snares and have speed buffs through other means. So I fail to see how this will change how you fight DKs.

Speed and buffs should belong to all, but with unique delivery methods for each class. The access will increase build diversity while the unique delivery will keep the game from becoming too stale.

IMO Snares should be 40% 10 min, 30 max. Every spec should be able to outplay it.

DKs and templars should have snare removal. Being either an unstoppable but slower force, or the ability to purify. Wardens and NBs should have speed buffs. But no class snare immunity. Sorcs should have both, and be the true mobile class, but at a cost of being squishy.

I mean, you'd expect the light based class to be the fast one, and the tree/nature one to be the slower one but idk.

Yea, I'd even say that snares should be removed from the game. I think they problem is the class system wasn't fully cleaned up so there's holes in the design intent for each class.

To segway, I also think the crowd control system needs some cleaning to solidify stand your ground builds versus more mobile friendly builds. There should be about 3 types of controls:
- hard cc.
- root ccs
- and powerful escapes/debuffs that grants immunity or don't depending on their unique function.

So for example, sorcs have streak that AOE cc around them and project then across a few meters. That's what I consider a powerful escape that grants cc immunity.

Another example, gap closers that stun/grant offensive buffs; you'll lose the stun but offensively move distance. DK leap is also in this example.

An example of a powerful escape that grants a buff, but it's unique, is the nightblade shade. It grants minor maim to target (s) but only moves the caster. So it doesn't grant cc immunity.

Another example, that needs work, Templar eclipse since it grants a player limited debuff and costs cc immunity. But it doesn't work consistently like the abilities above nor does it grant a powerful buff/debuff to warrant the cc immunity. But this ability should only exist in classes that can't move easily in their kit.

I think all classes should have a way to root players but unique in how they deliver it:
- DKs have talons but also grants minor maim
- sorcs have encase that's a ranged spell
- nightblades have a ranged one that grants them major expedition
- wardens do not have a root?
- Templar does not have a root.

I would like to see wardens receive a root (I can't remember if they do or not). If they don't have a root, I think birds is a great place to put it since the birds can "grab" and thus root players in place, also the ability is dodgeable. And Templars should be able to root players, but uniquely around either their melee Spears or through their ground healing circles (like DMG an target and cause them to be immobilzed in your circle or a target impacted by burning light is seared in place). But open to discussion!

I also think all classes should be able to CC reliably:
- sorcs have ranged unblocked cc.
- nightblades have AOE fear to break block (this should be 6 targets max again, stupid incorrect nerfs lol)
- DKs have fossilized, with an immobilzed mechanic but melee ranged.
- wardens should deal increased cc attempts while issuing direct frost attacks. Something unique around frost DMG but not tied to their AOE stuns (or one of their Friday spells gives the CC.)
- Templars need javelin to do a stun, not a kickback. While I think they need an unblockable cc like the other classes, I think Templars should deal more unblocked DMG than the others as a special DMG element. So javelin could also deal it's DMG unblocked, but not undodgeable.
-

And regarding speed, I think all classes should have a unique way to gather it:
- nbs get it via mirage with dodge chance, through AOE DMG, or their siphoning ability.
- sorcs get a huge boost in armor, proc aoe DMG, and get their speed (like a lightning beserker)
- DKs should get it via wings or their armor buff. I like winds because it can be considered dragons flying and the special delivery would be it's tied to a reflect.
- wardens get the mobilty tied to major beserk or minor evaison. Like a diving hawk going to eat it's prey, except I think it needs major evaison on the other morph (5% chance is puny and honestly shouldn't exist).
- Templars didn't have this buff at all. But they should have the ability to run high speed in their circles. Or while protected by their unique health shield.

That's my rant, hope you enjoyed!