Racial Passives (a poll)

KanedaSyndrome

I think it's a good idea to have a character locked into what was chosen, but you should be able to define at creation what a character has an aptitude for.

Existing characters should be given an once off racial/archetype respec.

Arobain

some really nice ideas here on this poll actually

Marginis

Aznox wrote: »

@DoobZ69 I don't even bother to correct 1 line posts anymore, your post was (and still is) a good read until that point, hence the disappointment and my reaction

By the way I dispute that 3% is a flat 3% increase in run time.

You are right it is not, my calculation is closer to 1,5% increase in run time. (because there are ... 2 dps in the group) but yes i got what you meant, lets continue :

The enemies die slower, other dps has to work harder, tank takes more hits, healer heals for longer, resource regen comes into effect, the chances of making a mistake increase, potential problems or deaths rise

This is true, but look at the overall Argonian passives (among which 205 stamina, magicka and health regen equivalent from the potion proc), i could have argued that a mistep from this players could have less consequences, maybe even saving a death or run time. I won't argue with you on this however because there are too many variables to consider.

, people start arguing and [snip], stop cooperating as well as they could.

Your semi-rant about a foolish player bringing an argonian dps to a vet dungeon, made me think that maybe that would be your style in this situation. Just tell me that is not the case and we are all good

Remember everyone, let's keep this to constructive discussion and not veer off into heated argument. We agree on a lot, right? It's just a small part that we have differing opinions on. Sounds to me like one of you is saying that there is a difference in power, and that is what matters - that there should not be a power gap in the first place. The other one of you appears to be saying that while there is a gap, the size is insignificant. Only a larger, significant power gap would deem a large change such as some suggested in the poll. Correct me if this is inaccurate.

What you two disagree on is the severity of the issue - which is just a difference of opinion. All the facts really, are agreed upon, even though it may not seem like it. A compromise between these two opinions, might be something like "maybe ZOS should do something, just to put this particular issue way down on the priority list".

@Aznox - My question to you would be what change do you think is best, if ZOS were to change racial passives in some way, way down the road?

[Edited for quote]

Aznox

People are constructive so i'm going to make an effort

Leave racial passives as they are.
-> yes, i voted for this, mainly because i think there are more urgent matters to work on.
-> disregarding this, i think some of the options below are good, so i'm going to comment them all

Eliminate racial passives completely.
-> no, the game does not need dumbing down, it need a rich, deep character building.

Rebalance racial passives but keep the current system.
-> yes, it need to be adjusted (by small touch) to stay balanced, ZoS already does that.
-> passives are nearly insignificant for any content other than vet Trials and try-hard PvP
-> this category of players need to have such optimization subjects to discuss
-> the others should be told they don't need to worry that much

Allow players to choose individual racial passives.
-> meh, a "build your own" does not make sense for a racial passive

Allow players to choose a set of racial passives, regardless of which race the set is intended for.
-> yes, at least with this you can find some roleplay justification like your character was raised by another race
-> maybe gate it behind some sort of achievement, like getting a character from this race to 50
-> so if i'm voting for a change, it would be this one.

Allow players to choose racial passives from a selection that is specific to their race.
-> meh, it would be band-aid, and the forum would be back to crying 2 months later

Make all magicka/stamina (or weapon/spell) specific passives give both magicka/stamina instead of just one.
-> meh, half the races would get nearly identical passives as result

Make all racial passives non-combat oriented.
-> meh, just slightly less worse than removing them

Make all racial passives about speed of training, but not affect end-game maximums.
-> no, that would be the same as removing them

Maura_Neysa

aeowulf wrote: »

Other - put a racial polymoprh in the store, then you can choose your racial passives, and polymoprh into the look of the one you want.

For a crown cost, obviously.

lol Amazing simple solution. Though the problem with polymorph option is the lack of character customization. Still want my Armor/Tattoo/Customs etc

aeowulf

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Other - put a racial polymoprh in the store, then you can choose your racial passives, and polymoprh into the look of the one you want.

For a crown cost, obviously.

lol Amazing simple solution. Though the problem with polymorph option is the lack of character customization. Still want my Armor/Tattoo/Customs etc

Maybe just a race polymoprh, rather than the whole thing. would also 'solve' the vamp look hatred.

I'm sure they can figure a way to allow customisations, even if it's just setting a 'default look' for that race for your account. Changing hair/accessories etc on the fly would be nice, but that's a small price to pay - it's got to have a downside right?

or polymoprh stations next expansion?

Never been too sure about your armour getting polymoprhed anyway - as long as i could change the look of that i'm good, i do love the new system

GreenSoup2HoT

I still hate Red Diamond in its current state. Wish it would get a tune up. RNG with % based mechanics are lame. Gimme a cooldown based fixed hp passive so lower hp Imperials can get value.

Beardimus

Leave as is but buff them. Make race mean something again.

aeowulf

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I still hate Red Diamond in its current state. Wish it would get a tune up. RNG with % based mechanics are lame. Gimme a cooldown based fixed hp passive so lower hp Imperials can get value.

Needs to be tweaked to stam (or even mag) sustain passive really - Imperials (and Dunmer) don't get a resource sustain currently unlike other races. Morrowind made that sustain more important.

Marginis

aeowulf wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I still hate Red Diamond in its current state. Wish it would get a tune up. RNG with % based mechanics are lame. Gimme a cooldown based fixed hp passive so lower hp Imperials can get value.

Needs to be tweaked to stam (or even mag) sustain passive really - Imperials (and Dunmer) don't get a resource sustain currently unlike other races. Morrowind made that sustain more important.

I think you guys may have (possibly unintentionally) brought up an interesting point. With a constantly changing meta, determining what's more important (sustain vs. damage boosts, for example), certain boosts might be more difficult to balance than others, and might even need constant tweaking to stay within the realm of "balanced," whatever we define that as.

Penny for your thoughts.

aeowulf

@Marginis

It was mostly intentional, but mostly to highlight the changing landscape of ESO.

When Morrowind hit, a lot more worked off max stats and that was changed to fixed amounts. This obviously changes the meta races as some became less balanced. Pre Morrowind, stats ruled, now it's sustain. Post Summerset, who knows. Sustain will rule as long as you have enough, then after 'enough' it will be stats again.

The unintentional bit was you making me think about it more and then me taking it to a deeper level of cause and effect. Butterfly landing on a flower over here, causes and earthquake over there kinda thing. I don't feel ZoS are particularly good or fast at reacting to things that are in this category. If they change something like sustain, they need to re-balance literally everything, and they don't. There were no racial changes with Morrowind, and sustain changed differently for each race. The same wil happen with Summerset, for example: Look at infused potion speed glyph. Argonians will get quite a sustain boost from that. Where is the sustain boost for the other races? Even if ZoS realise this, they can't just increase sustain by x% for other races across the board, because some have none so a % amp, is zero. I'm not knocking the change, i'm just trying to point out that this non-racial change has just becomes a racial balance issue and this was not a primary desire of infused potion speed glyphs. On the surface, "Everyone can use them, so no issue right?" I actually like that some races get better use from some glyphs/traits/sets. Imperial get the best result from infused tri-glyphs as an example, it's just sustain > stats in this expansion.

There are TONS of these secondary effects that happen and are not seen because (I believe) only the primary effect is looked at when the change is implemented. Any class based sustain issues can be resolved right now by playing Argonian. How can a class be balanced when things like that cannot be taken in to consideration.

This is why i'd love the CP system to be expanded with things like swim speed and for racial passives provide boosts to certain skills in trees. It would remove race balance threads as the net result would be negligible at end game, and ultimately mimicked with CP allocation anyway (as it should be)

Too much chuff on these forums Poor devs must have a nightmare with all the moaning and trying to work out whats relevant and what isn't.

Marginis

aeowulf wrote: »

@Marginis

It was mostly intentional, but mostly to highlight the changing landscape of ESO.

When Morrowind hit, a lot more worked off max stats and that was changed to fixed amounts. This obviously changes the meta races as some became less balanced. Pre Morrowind, stats ruled, now it's sustain. Post Summerset, who knows. Sustain will rule as long as you have enough, then after 'enough' it will be stats again.

The unintentional bit was you making me think about it more and then me taking it to a deeper level of cause and effect. Butterfly landing on a flower over here, causes and earthquake over there kinda thing. I don't feel ZoS are particularly good or fast at reacting to things that are in this category. If they change something like sustain, they need to re-balance literally everything, and they don't. There were no racial changes with Morrowind, and sustain changed differently for each race. The same wil happen with Summerset, for example: Look at infused potion speed glyph. Argonians will get quite a sustain boost from that. Where is the sustain boost for the other races? Even if ZoS realise this, they can't just increase sustain by x% for other races across the board, because some have none so a % amp, is zero. I'm not knocking the change, i'm just trying to point out that this non-racial change has just becomes a racial balance issue and this was not a primary desire of infused potion speed glyphs. On the surface, "Everyone can use them, so no issue right?" I actually like that some races get better use from some glyphs/traits/sets. Imperial get the best result from infused tri-glyphs as an example, it's just sustain > stats in this expansion.

There are TONS of these secondary effects that happen and are not seen because (I believe) only the primary effect is looked at when the change is implemented. Any class based sustain issues can be resolved right now by playing Argonian. How can a class be balanced when things like that cannot be taken in to consideration.

This is why i'd love the CP system to be expanded with things like swim speed and for racial passives provide boosts to certain skills in trees. It would remove race balance threads as the net result would be negligible at end game, and ultimately mimicked with CP allocation anyway (as it should be)

Too much chuff on these forums Poor devs must have a nightmare with all the moaning and trying to work out whats relevant and what isn't.

Interesting idea. Maybe another option could be trying to even out disparities created by racial passives, by adding similar effects to the champion point system. This could be a way to implement the equivalent of minor balance changes to racial passives, but let the players decide how they want to for their individual characters, and have the ability to adjust (without a crown cost) whenever there's a big update, without necessarily having to do a full balance pass on the passive skills. Could also help with power creep, as we get more and more champion points to allocate into the same amount of champion skills. Their would still be disparities in the races, but that might only be for players who min/max a certain way (or in the very least the disparity would be lessened from what it is currently).

It probably wouldn't be my personal first choice, but it could possibly be a more acceptable change to those who think changing the current system is more dangerous than keeping it as it is currently.

Wikter_Bravo

Red diamond hands down best passive.

aeowulf

it is the only one that has a song named after it!

Marginis

aeowulf wrote: »

it is the only one that has a song named after it!

A thousand curses upon you for inflicting the memory of that song on me.

It's going to take all day to get that out of my head now...

NyassaV

Just make Dunmer have more fire resist than Breton plz

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I am certainly open to small tweaks here and there, and obviously there are some races that could use an outright buff, but for the most part, they are fine. An Altmer should be a better magic DPS than a Redguard, based on everything I know about the Elder Scrolls universe.

lucky_Sage

Aznox wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Remember, we're taking into account what is good for all players - that includes those who care about both race and endgame or high level activities.

I'm quite the min-maxer tryhard pvp player type, and i decided not to change my khajiit to an orc (even though i have bough the token) because in the end the difference is not that big and i'v grown attached to my toon.

Sometimes it's good to make choices that are a compromise and not just pure math.

well when your class is pigeon holed into becoming vampire and male Bretons look ungly as F as vampire I just changed to Dunmer since they look better as vampire. which made my name not fit my character anymore

DoobZ69

Aznox wrote: »

@DoobZ69 I don't even bother to correct 1 line posts anymore, your post was (and still is) a good read until that point, hence the disappointment and my reaction

By the way I dispute that 3% is a flat 3% increase in run time.

You are right it is not, my calculation is closer to 1,5% increase in run time. (because there are ... 2 dps in the group) but yes i got what you meant, lets continue :

The enemies die slower, other dps has to work harder, tank takes more hits, healer heals for longer, resource regen comes into effect, the chances of making a mistake increase, potential problems or deaths rise

This is true, but look at the overall Argonian passives (among which 205 stamina, magicka and health regen equivalent from the potion proc), i could have argued that a mistep from this players could have less consequences, maybe even saving a death or run time. I won't argue with you on this however because there are too many variables to consider.

, people start arguing and [snip], stop cooperating as well as they could.

Your semi-rant about a foolish player bringing an argonian dps to a vet dungeon, made me think that maybe that would be your style in this situation. Just tell me that is not the case and we are all good

I treat players with respect and politeness if reciprocated. But I reserve the right to roll my eyes when I see (potential) incompetence. I also reserve the right to be proven wrong on occasion.

I respect the lore and admit that ESO should adhere to past TES games and have racial passives. However, it does not adhere to the RPG element of being a single-player game only. This has to and does change things. Firstly the game has to be balanced and I am not arguing that the racial passives are not balanced. I am arguing for a system where a racial passive design should accommodate for the idea of any race+any class+any role style of play I believe ESO is intended to be designed around (Current design is actually any race+certain build+any class+any role). By "build" I mean stamina vs magicka. I am of the opinion that currently it does not because whilst the design DOES work in allowing the player to play how THEY want it can fall on its face when the players play how they want with other people. If a player wants to run a Redguard healer in medium gear with a frost staff and all their points in crafting then by the gods I will defend his/her right to do that all day long. But the right goes out the window when he/she joins a serious content group and that particular style of play is demonstrably ineffective. A certain level of performance/behaviour is expected in that instance. I cannot in good conscience defend a stamdps argonian over a redguard, for example.

So whats all the fuss about? I rolled a Breton+magicka+tank. Paid 30$ months later for a race change to Redguard+stamina+tank. It hasn't broken my bank and all is well. I passionately believe the racial passive design is flawed because I couldn't keep playing a Breton like I originally intended to. I could, of course, but now with my stamina build (which the game allows you to alter as you get further into the game) I was stuck with racial passives which do not fit a stam build well(and could not be changed/altered at that stage). Whilst the passives between races in on themselves may be a few % here and there it on principal is a system without the flexibility the rest of the game has. Therefore I am advocating for a system which should be balanced, adhere to the lore and (fit the MMO framework of this TES game)<-this is the broken part.

I've made a suggestion as to HOW I believe this can be achieved in my first post in this thread and wrote up a huge post with further details in another. My original comments, however, stated that I do not believe it is in ZOSs interests to change the current system. Its extra $ for the developer every time someone decides they made a mistake and wants to correct it using a token. I have knowledge of at least 2 race changes tokens used JUST because of the passives and not in relation to "I think this race is stronger" but because "my race is currently f-ing useless to me in how I play since ive originally created the character". Tough ***, lore, re-roll, I like it the way it is(until they change it in a way that doesnt suit me, then I will cry foul), lifes not fair. Every excuse in the world to stop, from players themselves, a much requested enhancement!

The sad part is that players as a whole think in terms of a classic MMO - pick your race, class, role, never change. ESO is a different, more elegant, beast, with the ability to have a racial system with mind blowing flexibility and uniqueness. So as long as the players, as a whole, are close-minded, and ZOS has a financial incentive to keep things status quo, this particular change, sadly, wont be made. In the meantime I will continue to voice my opinion and try to make constructive criticism/suggestions while enjoying this awesome, and continually improving, game. Churr!

[Edited for quote]

Amdar_Godkiller

Aznox wrote: »

The forums are used to explain things as well as suggest things

It's true but often those who do the most suggesting are those who would benefit the most from getting some explaining done to them ... quite infuriating.

This thread is fine however

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I feel like racial passives should be a trade off rather than a dps handout to certain races. Racial passives shouldn't be skill point investments, but rather they should be inherent to your character from their creation, and they should grant bonuses that are balanced with drawbacks. For instance, high elves should be powerful in magicka, but susceptible to physical damage.

Without negative racial passives, it's impossible to balance racial passives, and actual choice is eliminated from the character creation process as well.

You don't need negative passives for that, the opportunity cost of not picking another race passives IS a trade-off.

Again, as long as differentiated passives will exist (positive or positive/negative), some races will be described as mathematically better for some roles/build/classes/...

I'm all for some adjustments from time to time to follow overall game balance and meta changes, but i think only ZoS and not us the players would be able to make unbiased decisions.

That's not the kind of trade off I'm talking about, and there is no opportunity cost for picking the race that's mathematically superior for the role and content you are pursuing. There's no legitimate cost for someone who decides to roll as an Altmer Mag Sorc. There's an automatic deficit however when you choose a race that isn't optimized for any content, like say a Nord.

And the whole point of a forum is for us players to make both biased and unbiased opinions. Whether we are qualified in terms of our opinion's credibility, however, must be judged on a case by case basis.