Make Racials Into Archetype

KanedaSyndrome

I'm advocating a change from racials to an archetype that you choose upon character creation.

How will it work?
Simple, any current racial skill lines will be a skill line that you can choose upon character creation. These skill lines are already balanced out against each other, and thus this breaks nothing balance-wise. What this basically does is that it allows you to choose what race your character is without compromising on your min/maxing habits.

Want to play an optimal magicka character that so happens to be a redguard? You can do that with this change. Without compromising your min/maxing desires.
Want to be a badass nightblade with your Breton (Just like in the cinematics), you can do that with this change. Without compromising your min/maxing desires.

There will be naysayers, there always are, but think a bit about this, naysayer, how would this change adversely affect you?

My story:
I have a nord warden, he fits perfectly thematically, but I have this gamer gene that compels me to optimize characters, but I can't, because of his racials not lending themselves to a magicka build.

Play As You Want©

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UPDATED SUGGESTION OF HOW THIS WOULD BE IMPLEMENTED
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So in the following discussion there's been talk back and forth regarding how this should be implemented. Here's my take on it.

Mechanically, it'd be the same as the racial skill lines that we have currently, only difference would be that they're chosen upon player creation independently of what race you choose. They'll be renamed to archetype skill lines or something just as apt.

Why is it my suggestion to do it this way?
Because whatever balancing efforts is already poured into the racial skill lines would persist this way, you wouldn't get to choose the best skills from each line and compose your own new custom made one. This way this change is fairly simple and wouldn't break anything balancing-wise. Does this mean that I long term don't want more customizability in the archetype skill lines? No it doesn't, I think that would be nifty.

Basically what we'd end up with is players having the freedom to choose what their characters have a natural aptitude for. We, the players, the characters, are the oddballs out of our nations/cultures/races. Not everyone is escaping Molag Bal for instance. With us being this unique, it's not inconceivable in my mind that there may be a legendary Breton fighter or an extremely magically gifted Khajiit.

To the sceptics, We have to remember though that we won't suddenly see the entire player base going fighter altmers and orc mages. Many of us come from a strong roleplaying standpoint, we have an idea of whom our character is, and often, this idea aligns with classical lore. I will definitely make a high magic altmer, I will most certainly play a screaming war-happy orc as well. Perfectly within the stereotype for such races. But at the same time, I would love to see my nord be magically gifted, see my Breton climb walls with the agility of a Khajiit.

My point is, the player base will inherently make sure that the lore is kept safe, purely by our creativity and love for the TES lore, regardless whether or not racials are changed to a choosable archetype. This will just merely give us the freedom to play the character that stands out from the norm.

I Wish you all a great day, and please continue the discussion as it's most inspiring

RedKialandi

I like the idea and it adds a lot more free choice to the game, but I do think it does take away a bit from the uniqueness of each race, and how each race may have a niche or be better at some things than others. Still a decent idea though.

Bam_Bam

RedKialandi wrote: »

I like the idea and it adds a lot more free choice to the game, but I do think it does take away a bit from the uniqueness of each race, and how each race may have a niche or be better at some things than others. Still a decent idea though.

I'm not really into the idea. Like you say, I like the fact that each race is better at some things than other races.

Checkmath

i think there already were several similar suggestions.
things like you should be able to choose between existing passives as a pack, so you cant pick some of different races

Klixen

I love this idea! I want to play an Orc Magicka user, but I find myself gimped without the Magicka passives.

I've just read an article about High Elves being the most popular race in ESO and it made me sad. The only reason they are so popular is because they are the best race to use for Magicka classes.

I would love to have some choice. If I could pick and choose my passives, then ALL of my characters would be Orcs (I love Orcs)

AcadianPaladin

I like this idea and find it much more in line with how I built my characters in Oblivion and Skyrim. Racials have traditionally had a much smaller impact channeling what type of char archtype you played in previous ES games. Specifically, I've always played magic Bosmers and ESO discourages that much moreso than previous ES games.

Yzalirk

I think this is a pretty solid idea. Not sure how it will work for existing characters though.

My thought is that the racial bonuses should be introduced in CP milestones or something. For example, you reach CP 200 and get a token to spend on one racial archetype you want. So if you are a Nord, you have the Nord bonuses by default but you can get the Orc racial bonuses if you choose to. Every 100 CP rank, you get another token. At very late end game, you feel powerful and your time invested is well worth it. It also goes nicely if ZOS makes CP 1000 the max.

I feel strongly that you should not be limited to stats by race. Some guilds ostracize people that are not maxing and it is just sad.

Maura_Neysa

I think this could work in if done right. You cant just pick any passives, some combinations together wouldn't be balanced at all. However if they where split into groups maybe.
For example Argonian Resourceful, Bosmer Y'Effre Endurance, Regaurd Adrenaline Rush, would be some seriously broken sustain.
If however each race had a Passive Morph that took it toward Mag/Stam/Health that I think could be interesting.

Aliyavana

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

Yzalirk

aliyavana wrote: »

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

But you cannot even do that in ESO...

Aliyavana

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

But you cannot even do that in ESO...

Yes you can, a good player can still pick up his lack of being a superior race if they are not bad, but if you put two players of equal skill with one min maxed and the other not min maxed the superior race will outperform the lesser race

_Salty_

Im a Nord, and I play how I want. I also have no interest in Vet trials so theres that.

Yzalirk

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

But you cannot even do that in ESO...

Yes you can, a good player can still pick up his lack of being a superior race if they are not bad, but if you put two players of equal skill with one min maxed and the other not min maxed the superior race will outperform the lesser race

You said a Nord, with the exception of Shalidor, cannot be as talented in the arcane arts as a High Elf, correct?

Figure this, a Nord and an Altmer are wearing the same gear, same CP options, and both have 64 points into Magicka. The Altmer will out perform the Nord because of racial passives. Maybe not by a whole lot but still a noticeable difference.

For a game that is “play as/who you want,” race can be somewhat of a burden due to racial passives. Also, the vestige is depicted as a powerful person so regardless of what race you are, you should be the strongest regardless.

Aliyavana

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

But you cannot even do that in ESO...

Yes you can, a good player can still pick up his lack of being a superior race if they are not bad, but if you put two players of equal skill with one min maxed and the other not min maxed the superior race will outperform the lesser race

You said a Nord, with the exception of Shalidor, cannot be as talented in the arcane arts as a High Elf, correct?

Figure this, a Nord and an Altmer are wearing the same gear, same CP options, and both have 64 points into Magicka. The Altmer will out perform the Nord because of racial passives. Maybe not by a whole lot but still a noticeable difference.

For a game that is “play as/who you want,” race can be somewhat of a burden due to racial passives. Also, the vestige is depicted as a powerful person so regardless of what race you are, you should be the strongest regardless.

You can play as you want, but there can be consequences for your decisions. Racials with the exception of casualized skyrim have always been important to the elder scrolls series, welcome to the elder scrolls where elves are magically proficient compared to men, and men better warriors usually.

TheShadowScout

Oh, look, another idea which hinges upon throwing out all the elder scrolls lore about what the races are good at just so people can cherry-pick their passives regardless of racial selection!

No.
I would hate this, as it steps -way- beyond TES lore.
Stop trying break the lore just so you don't have to make -choices-!

This IS an integral part of TES games, that the different races all have disctinct advantages in some fields. Altmer being all magica, redguards being all sword-happy, nords being all tough and so on... sure they don't -have- to follow that path, and sometimes someone who doesn't becomes exceptionally good at it - but that IS why people like Shalidor are remembered, because they are the -exception- to the rule! Noone cares about an altmer archmage, since you can hardly throw a stone into TES history without hitting a dozend of those... but the one nord who manages to become a master mage, that one is remembered because he did not have that "elf blood priviledge" giving him a leg up from the start!

...


Now, a way more fruitful discussion would be to talk about changing things so the racial passives do not have that much of an endgame impact to lead all people into "must have" thinking... allowing all races to hit some ceiling if they choose, just requiring more effort from those not racially advantaged in some way (bring back softcaps!)

...


Or talk about leaving the current passives as they are in tone, but changing something in their effect. Like for example, replacing amm "percentage bonus" type passives with a regeneration rate boost instead, and then add a new set of passives for the stat bonus, a set of "cultural" passives for example where you can freely choose which one you pick for your character, like... grown up in a noble or scholar household among books and tutors, gain magica advantage, grown up in a commoners household helping the family business all day long, gain stamina advantage, grown up among exiles living in the wilds, gain health advantage...

Yzalirk

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

But you cannot even do that in ESO...

Yes you can, a good player can still pick up his lack of being a superior race if they are not bad, but if you put two players of equal skill with one min maxed and the other not min maxed the superior race will outperform the lesser race

You said a Nord, with the exception of Shalidor, cannot be as talented in the arcane arts as a High Elf, correct?

Figure this, a Nord and an Altmer are wearing the same gear, same CP options, and both have 64 points into Magicka. The Altmer will out perform the Nord because of racial passives. Maybe not by a whole lot but still a noticeable difference.

For a game that is “play as/who you want,” race can be somewhat of a burden due to racial passives. Also, the vestige is depicted as a powerful person so regardless of what race you are, you should be the strongest regardless.

You can play as you want, but there can be consequences for your decisions. Racials with the exception of casualized skyrim have always been important to the elder scrolls series, welcome to the elder scrolls where elves are magically proficient compared to men, and men better warriors usually.

Please, do not patronize me.

The difference is ESO is an MMO. If you choose to play as a Nord magicka user, you should be just as proficient at it like High Elves if you choose to be. Also, the trend for TES games seems to be that you become a powerful person throughout your adventures despite what race you choose.

The point I am trying to make is that the min/max gap should no longer exist. This can be because the passives are taken out or that the player can choose more passives like I suggested above. Race should be chosen for your enjoyment, not to be the best DPS or Tank. I know the system will never change but I enjoy arguing for it.

Kikke

Roll your nord warden as a tank, stop crying, and go back to whatever cave you came out from. This is a TES MMO, were races matter. We are not equal, and should not be treated as such.

Vorkrunne

I have thought of race/class combinations I would love to play, but... I never did due to min/maxing. I don't get the fun in that.

You get to either choose between your fantasy of what you really want to play or... knowing that you are doing the best possible thing you can for your class/spec.

Seems very constrictive and lame to me.

I am sure there are other ways to give races a sense of uniqueness that have nothing to do with spec/class.

Strider__Roshin

kikkehs wrote: »

Roll your nord warden as a tank, stop crying, and go back to whatever cave you came out from. This is a TES MMO, were races matter. We are not equal, and should not be treated as such.

You know if you read the lore Nords are suppose to be these power warriors. It's a shame their in game passives don't reflect that. It's the odd ball of EP.

Best EP healer: Argonian
Best EP tank: Argonian
Best EP mag DPS: Dark Elf
Best EP stam DPS: Argonian

Yzalirk

kikkehs wrote: »

Roll your nord warden as a tank, stop crying, and go back to whatever cave you came out from. This is a TES MMO, were races matter. We are not equal, and should not be treated as such.

That is quite rude and disrespectful.

If you are referring to me I will have you know I do not play a Warden. I find the class to be the least enjoyable.

Kikke

Yzalirk wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Roll your nord warden as a tank, stop crying, and go back to whatever cave you came out from. This is a TES MMO, were races matter. We are not equal, and should not be treated as such.

That is quite rude and disrespectful.

If you are referring to me I will have you know I do not play a Warden. I find the class to be the least enjoyable.

Was refering too the OP story, and I find it quite rude and disrespectful that people want too change a game I love just because of their own opinions that everything should be equal, well just too say it. it's not..

Darauk

I love this idea. I have some ill-fitting race + class combos (from and RPG perspective) because I am far too compelled to maximize skill fit to class needs.

Iluvrien

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

But you cannot even do that in ESO...

Yes you can, a good player can still pick up his lack of being a superior race if they are not bad, but if you put two players of equal skill with one min maxed and the other not min maxed the superior race will outperform the lesser race

You said a Nord, with the exception of Shalidor, cannot be as talented in the arcane arts as a High Elf, correct?

Figure this, a Nord and an Altmer are wearing the same gear, same CP options, and both have 64 points into Magicka. The Altmer will out perform the Nord because of racial passives. Maybe not by a whole lot but still a noticeable difference.

For a game that is “play as/who you want,” race can be somewhat of a burden due to racial passives. Also, the vestige is depicted as a powerful person so regardless of what race you are, you should be the strongest regardless.

You can play as you want, but there can be consequences for your decisions. Racials with the exception of casualized skyrim have always been important to the elder scrolls series, welcome to the elder scrolls where elves are magically proficient compared to men, and men better warriors usually.

Please, do not patronize me.

The difference is ESO is an MMO. If you choose to play as a Nord magicka user, you should be just as proficient at it like High Elves if you choose to be. Also, the trend for TES games seems to be that you become a powerful person throughout your adventures despite what race you choose.

The point I am trying to make is that the min/max gap should no longer exist. This can be because the passives are taken out or that the player can choose more passives like I suggested above. Race should be chosen for your enjoyment, not to be the best DPS or Tank. I know the system will never change but I enjoy arguing for it.

ESO is Elder Scrolls first and Online second. It relies on the legacy forged by the earlier single-player games. It might be an MMO but that is only part of the full MMORPG designator. Role Playing is not an insignificant part of this description.

There are certain expectations associated with TES and with RPGs. In this case Racials is one of them.

You might enjoy arguing for them to take yet another liberty with the lore to make it fit with your preferred style of play. I just see it as yet another attempt to homogenise the game into the rest of the genre by removing everything that is distinctive.

Maura_Neysa

kikkehs wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

Roll your nord warden as a tank, stop crying, and go back to whatever cave you came out from. This is a TES MMO, were races matter. We are not equal, and should not be treated as such.

That is quite rude and disrespectful.

If you are referring to me I will have you know I do not play a Warden. I find the class to be the least enjoyable.

Was refering too the OP story, and I find it quite rude and disrespectful that people want too change a game I love just because of their own opinions that everything should be equal, well just too say it. it's not..

It would have literaly no differance to the game if you just picked a set of the current Race Passives and applied them to your character at creations.
- Like a Nord with Imperial passives or an Altmer with Breton passives.
So on that level I agree with the OP. Hell I started with a Bosmer Tank, cause I thought it was funny to run a tiny little tank. That you should be able to do. Now if you got to mix and match a set of passives of your own choosing that would be changing the game, and likely break it. So that I'm against. Personally I think the best option would be something in between like morphs.
What if you could have
- Adrenaline Rush or Red Diamond
- Y'Effre Endurance or Spell Charge or Unflinching
- Rugged or Spell Resistance or Resist Affliction or Resist Flame
Obviously these are not balanced as some like Resist Affliction is Poison+Disease resistance and Stam recovery. That may free up race without changing the game at all.

Yzalirk

Iluvrien wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

You can play as you want but a nord will never be by default as magically gifted as an altmer unless you train to be an exception like shalindor.

But you cannot even do that in ESO...

Yes you can, a good player can still pick up his lack of being a superior race if they are not bad, but if you put two players of equal skill with one min maxed and the other not min maxed the superior race will outperform the lesser race

You said a Nord, with the exception of Shalidor, cannot be as talented in the arcane arts as a High Elf, correct?

Figure this, a Nord and an Altmer are wearing the same gear, same CP options, and both have 64 points into Magicka. The Altmer will out perform the Nord because of racial passives. Maybe not by a whole lot but still a noticeable difference.

For a game that is “play as/who you want,” race can be somewhat of a burden due to racial passives. Also, the vestige is depicted as a powerful person so regardless of what race you are, you should be the strongest regardless.

You can play as you want, but there can be consequences for your decisions. Racials with the exception of casualized skyrim have always been important to the elder scrolls series, welcome to the elder scrolls where elves are magically proficient compared to men, and men better warriors usually.

Please, do not patronize me.

The difference is ESO is an MMO. If you choose to play as a Nord magicka user, you should be just as proficient at it like High Elves if you choose to be. Also, the trend for TES games seems to be that you become a powerful person throughout your adventures despite what race you choose.

The point I am trying to make is that the min/max gap should no longer exist. This can be because the passives are taken out or that the player can choose more passives like I suggested above. Race should be chosen for your enjoyment, not to be the best DPS or Tank. I know the system will never change but I enjoy arguing for it.

ESO is Elder Scrolls first and Online second. It relies on the legacy forged by the earlier single-player games. It might be an MMO but that is only part of the full MMORPG designator. Role Playing is not an insignificant part of this description.

There are certain expectations associated with TES and with RPGs. In this case Racials is one of them.

You might enjoy arguing for them to take yet another liberty with the lore to make it fit with your preferred style of play. I just see it as yet another attempt to homogenise the game into the rest of the genre by removing everything that is distinctive.

I disagree. ESO seems to be more of an MMO with an Elder Scrolls coating, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Exactly what is distinctive? I like Nords so I will use them as an example. Throughout all the lore I have read, they are depicted as great warriors. Why is it that in ESO their racial bonuses do not reflect that? Their only seemingly unique quality is that they like to drink. Some of the other races make sense, like Redguards.

I simply want to play as the intended skillful warriors and blacksmiths Nords are intended to be, not some soft milk-drinker that gets outshined by other races. They should be like than Man equivalent to Orcs (minus the healing recieved bonuses).

emilyhyoyeon

IMO, if any parts of the racial passives should be unchoosable, only the non-attribute max/recovery passives should be unchoosable, ex. dunmer fire resistance and damage, khajiit stealth radius

Recremen

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Oh, look, another idea which hinges upon throwing out all the elder scrolls lore about what the races are good at just so people can cherry-pick their passives regardless of racial selection!

No.
I would hate this, as it steps -way- beyond TES lore.
Stop trying break the lore just so you don't have to make -choices-!

This IS an integral part of TES games, that the different races all have disctinct advantages in some fields. Altmer being all magica, redguards being all sword-happy, nords being all tough and so on... sure they don't -have- to follow that path, and sometimes someone who doesn't becomes exceptionally good at it - but that IS why people like Shalidor are remembered, because they are the -exception- to the rule! Noone cares about an altmer archmage, since you can hardly throw a stone into TES history without hitting a dozend of those... but the one nord who manages to become a master mage, that one is remembered because he did not have that "elf blood priviledge" giving him a leg up from the start!

...


Now, a way more fruitful discussion would be to talk about changing things so the racial passives do not have that much of an endgame impact to lead all people into "must have" thinking... allowing all races to hit some ceiling if they choose, just requiring more effort from those not racially advantaged in some way (bring back softcaps!)

...


Or talk about leaving the current passives as they are in tone, but changing something in their effect. Like for example, replacing amm "percentage bonus" type passives with a regeneration rate boost instead, and then add a new set of passives for the stat bonus, a set of "cultural" passives for example where you can freely choose which one you pick for your character, like... grown up in a noble or scholar household among books and tutors, gain magica advantage, grown up in a commoners household helping the family business all day long, gain stamina advantage, grown up among exiles living in the wilds, gain health advantage...

Looked at in a different way, we can easily explain the whole "different races are good at different things" as a game design product of its time. It really is just a reflection of the effects that real-world racism has had on game development, echoes from the past that we flat out haven't questioned enough to realize "hey, this might be inappropriate to keep doing".

Beyond a couple of absolute physiological differences that don't even show up in this game (Argonian water breathing, Khajiit Night Eye) there is just no reason to believe that a particular member of a certain race even HAS a leg up on their competitors. Is some Altmer stablehand really more gifted in magic than a Nord stablehand? Probably not. But it could be argued that the cultural institutions of the Altmer do, on average, lend themselves towards a random stablehand maybe picking up a spell here or there, just because they live in such a magickal society. Take the Altmer out of that society and raise them in Skyrim, though, and I just can't see them having some race-bound intrinsic advantage.

Since we're talking about game mechanics, let's take a deeper dive into these "racial" bonuses. They don't even unlock until you level up! And significantly, at that! So how can it really be inherent to the race if most members of that race will never even display those attributes? Are we really to believe that it's instead some kind of potential that each race could grow into? Well that's not how it was in other TES games, so if we care about how it's worked in the series then we're already doing it wrong. And if the argument is "oh the leveling is just a game mechanic, it's not important for the lore!" then the question becomes : if the game mechanic isn't important for the lore, then why have the game mechanic to begin with?

I think that since racial stereotypes can already exist in-game without a game mechanic backing them, combined with the fact that this sort of change would be useful to majority of players, means that this suggestion has my firm backing. There's no reason to keep this archaic development practice going when personalized character backgrounds can more easily explain differences between individuals. Let the racism stay part of the story, not part of the game mechanics.

NyassaV

There is merit in the idea but I want to see a more fleshed out write up

qbkitsune

One way to keep the passives but have them be less influential in the end game would be to stop scaling damage from magicka/stamina. Skill/gear based damage already exists, so why not change the math to focus on that? Or come up with some other system? Then you wouldn’t need to min/max, and the racial passives wouldn’t be as influential. It would also allow for a wider variety of builds while preserving the idea that certain races have affinities for different attributes.

There are plenty of stamina races that have notable mages in their lore or a well-known magicka-using priesthood, like the Spinners of Valenwood. Likewise, there are magicka races that have famous stamina users, most of whom are the various knights you meet in each faction. Due to the current min/max requirements, you can pretty much assume any NPC wielding a melee weapon is a stamina character:-/

Skander

No, why?

Becouse everything can be anything, but some are better genetically at something. That is the lore of this game.

teladoy

This idea is not new and the people rage because they say this will destroy the lore.