Truth & lie, reality/virtuality & inner fiction, actual game, c0da

Ajaxandriel

Deviating from the other thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/402635/lore-friendly-glass-malachite-roofs-retexture-for-summerset-architecture/p2 ... which should have centered on its own concern (graphic design choices).

Darkstorne wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Highlor3 wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

they didnt fix the telvanni tower texture in morrowind despite the complaints

Fleshy shroom towers still be fleshy.

That disappointed me a lot especially after all the backlash in the beta forums

it was fan art, with all the canonical relevance of C0DA

I agree with your point, but I would also like to point out that C0DA is now canon courtesy of ESO

And on topic, hell yes to glass roofs. It doesn't solve the issue completely, but it's a fantastic compromise of lore and engine restrictions.

Enlight us on how C0DA was made canon by ESO?

In-game lore book from the Morrowind expansion, the 37th Lesson of Vivec. Most obviously by the final line: "The worlding of the words is AMARANTH" which if you've read C0DA tells you all you need to know. But also if you haven't read C0DA there's an amazing line in this lore book which reads:

"Go here: world without wheel, charting zero deaths, and echoes singing" Seht said, until all of it was done, and in the center was anything whatever.

Underlined the important parts of that for you. C0DA's website is www.c0da.es. That'll fill you in on what the Amaranth is, but the long and the short of it is:

The world of TES is a dream, and the dreamer is the Amaranth. Even the gods are a part of her dream. Eventually, a new dreamer will begin to dream a new world, from within the world of TES. Turtles all the way down. Those who have achieved chim are those who have realized the world isn't real but love it enough to remain within. They gain the power to do with the world whatever they will, much like lucid dreams irl (hence Talos mantling Lorkhan to become a god within this world). This also explains why modding is completely lore friendly, since every player has achieved chim whether they realize it or not, knowing the world isn't real, choosing to remain within anyway, and therefore having the power to shape the world (or simply toggle god mode) however they like. It also means ESO isn't lore friendly for this reason but we can let them off for that since players toggling god mode in PVP would get boring pretty fast.

C0da was written by Michael Kirkbride and so was the Vivec lessons so it's no wonder why they have tie in's together. The lessons were written long before ESO was made or even thought of.

37th sermon was brand new for ESO Morrowind, so C0DA is genuinely lore by choice of the devs

How in the world an easter-egg can be a "proof" of some kind ? x)

If I tell a story (e.g. in TES universe...) with some famous line from Star Wars, "It's a trap !" or whatever, does this imply X-wings and Darth Vader are suddenly made canon-real into my story ? I think not. Even if from the meta point of view, the players/listeners will be aware of the reference while reading the line.

And wasn't the 37e sermon written by M.K. himself ? it'd be fair hidden extra-diegesis reference so. Without any level of character-awareness here.
Even "Amaranth" word can be canon now. Sometimes, fanon pieces are made canon, because there're chosen.
Such a choice looks like a wink or fanservice (not in the bad meaning, but sth. meant to please the "tES occult lore" community).

Just like the redguard "conspiracy" NPC telling Ayrenn is a robot.

After all, when you "wake up" out of such a dream, you cannot be totally sure it's the Reality (transcending truth before the dream) or a dream wihtin the dream (lower lever of "inception"/immersion) like a game in the game...
Given some facts - like Vivec being a poet, bosmer spinners being storytellers, the redguard conspiracy NPC taking *** for truth - and for some obvious rule (not to ruin the 4th wall) - I chose to see c0da like a kind of fiction within the fiction.
This metafiction may be believed by some actual/canonical characters.

The interesting part is giving some legitimacy to any fanon.
What will you take into account then ? Everything ? Then okay "everything is lore" ... including all the Mods, all the cross-over fanfics ... but it's real life lore and global fanfiction pool so.
If we want to be more specific to the Elder Scrolls... there are two ways, like in real life when you're told something new :
1- it's more consistent with facts, and/or with what you already know (which is supposed to be consistent with former facts) ; or
2- it's great and nice ! and you're pleased to believe.
A third point would be the bourgeois concept of authority.
3- if the author (fiction) or authority (real life) says so, then "it's true".

(1) Not the most consistent + (2) Not great to me, not pleased to believe (+ (3) Not the legal team of development) => thus, c0da is not canon. Quod erat demonstrandum.

(Of course each point here is moot. Just giving my perspective.
Somebody may find consistency where there's ***, and may find greatness where there's delirium, and may consider M.K. as the legitimate authority there, so it'll work.)

...
With these standards, one can discuss the canonicity of ESO:Summerset architecture.
(For me, the actual game will be made of these visual facts, point (1); so yes, it's canon, even if (2) not-so-great I would expect.

TelvanniWizard

All that is really nice, and well thought. Still, Summerset architecture is disappointing breton architecture in the mystic and mythic elven islands. Poor design towards lore and towards the idea of making something new and aweing, instead of turning over some generic and uninspired design. Dixi.

LadyNerevar

Here's a great quote from Loremaster Lawrence Schick on the nature of truth and interpretation in Tamriel:

...All the lore in the game is delivered from the standpoint of people in Tamriel. In that way, Elder Scrolls is different from most fantasy campaign worlds, right? I mean, the typical paradigm, you know - George RR Martin with Westeros, Tolkien with Middle Earth, the familiar D&D worlds of The Forgotten Realms or the world of Greyhawk - those all have histories and backgrounds that are all laid out and they’ve all got some lore-daddy who decided everything and everything is ‘this is how it is’, so everything works within the envelope of things that are already decided.

Elder Scrolls - Tamriel - does not follow that paradigm. In Elder Scrolls, all lore is delivered not from on high by revelation, but from people who live their lives in the game, in the world of the game, and based on their beliefs. So that does two things for us: It means the lore always carries not just information about what the person is talking about, but also information about the person and their culture. Because the way the lore is delivered tells you how they believe things actually work in the world.

What this means, of course, is that people have different viewpoints - these viewpoints sometimes contradict each other, and so sometimes we have players saying “alright, this person believes that, and that person believes this other thing, but which one’s the real thing?” Well... it’s not a world like ours. In a world like ours, where you can sort of trust in science and say “well yes, people have different beliefs but I know there is an objective reality.” This is a world of myth. This is a world where reality is actually changeable, where the Divines can change not only what happens going forward, but what has happened in the past. So, you know, the idea there is an objective reality behind all these different people’s opinions is not necessarily the case in the world of Tamriel. So listen to what all these different people have to say, make up your own mind, make up your own beliefs about what happened and you’re as liable - since you’re playing in their world and you’re playing a character in their world - what you think happened is as legitimate as what that NPC thinks.

Sixty5

LadyNerevar wrote: »

Here's a great quote from Loremaster Lawrence Schick on the nature of truth and interpretation in Tamriel:

...All the lore in the game is delivered from the standpoint of people in Tamriel. In that way, Elder Scrolls is different from most fantasy campaign worlds, right? I mean, the typical paradigm, you know - George RR Martin with Westeros, Tolkien with Middle Earth, the familiar D&D worlds of The Forgotten Realms or the world of Greyhawk - those all have histories and backgrounds that are all laid out and they’ve all got some lore-daddy who decided everything and everything is ‘this is how it is’, so everything works within the envelope of things that are already decided.

Elder Scrolls - Tamriel - does not follow that paradigm. In Elder Scrolls, all lore is delivered not from on high by revelation, but from people who live their lives in the game, in the world of the game, and based on their beliefs. So that does two things for us: It means the lore always carries not just information about what the person is talking about, but also information about the person and their culture. Because the way the lore is delivered tells you how they believe things actually work in the world.

What this means, of course, is that people have different viewpoints - these viewpoints sometimes contradict each other, and so sometimes we have players saying “alright, this person believes that, and that person believes this other thing, but which one’s the real thing?” Well... it’s not a world like ours. In a world like ours, where you can sort of trust in science and say “well yes, people have different beliefs but I know there is an objective reality.” This is a world of myth. This is a world where reality is actually changeable, where the Divines can change not only what happens going forward, but what has happened in the past. So, you know, the idea there is an objective reality behind all these different people’s opinions is not necessarily the case in the world of Tamriel. So listen to what all these different people have to say, make up your own mind, make up your own beliefs about what happened and you’re as liable - since you’re playing in their world and you’re playing a character in their world - what you think happened is as legitimate as what that NPC thinks.

"Welcome to Elder Scrolls, where the stories are made up and the lore doesn't matter"

But for real though, in a series where what the player does wildy varies from the actual events, that is the best approach to take.

Plus with the CHIM stuff all of that actually makes a kind of weird sense.

TelvanniWizard

Sixty5 wrote: »

LadyNerevar wrote: »

Here's a great quote from Loremaster Lawrence Schick on the nature of truth and interpretation in Tamriel:

...All the lore in the game is delivered from the standpoint of people in Tamriel. In that way, Elder Scrolls is different from most fantasy campaign worlds, right? I mean, the typical paradigm, you know - George RR Martin with Westeros, Tolkien with Middle Earth, the familiar D&D worlds of The Forgotten Realms or the world of Greyhawk - those all have histories and backgrounds that are all laid out and they’ve all got some lore-daddy who decided everything and everything is ‘this is how it is’, so everything works within the envelope of things that are already decided.

Elder Scrolls - Tamriel - does not follow that paradigm. In Elder Scrolls, all lore is delivered not from on high by revelation, but from people who live their lives in the game, in the world of the game, and based on their beliefs. So that does two things for us: It means the lore always carries not just information about what the person is talking about, but also information about the person and their culture. Because the way the lore is delivered tells you how they believe things actually work in the world.

What this means, of course, is that people have different viewpoints - these viewpoints sometimes contradict each other, and so sometimes we have players saying “alright, this person believes that, and that person believes this other thing, but which one’s the real thing?” Well... it’s not a world like ours. In a world like ours, where you can sort of trust in science and say “well yes, people have different beliefs but I know there is an objective reality.” This is a world of myth. This is a world where reality is actually changeable, where the Divines can change not only what happens going forward, but what has happened in the past. So, you know, the idea there is an objective reality behind all these different people’s opinions is not necessarily the case in the world of Tamriel. So listen to what all these different people have to say, make up your own mind, make up your own beliefs about what happened and you’re as liable - since you’re playing in their world and you’re playing a character in their world - what you think happened is as legitimate as what that NPC thinks.

"Welcome to Elder Scrolls, where the stories are made up and the lore doesn't matter"

But for real though, in a series where what the player does wildy varies from the actual events, that is the best approach to take.

Plus with the CHIM stuff all of that actually makes a kind of weird sense.

As is see it, even if it is cannon, CHIM, Amaranth and all that dream stuff is just as easy for an excuse as "dragon breaks".

SirAxen

I don't reckon I've ever seen an IP more argued over on what is 'canon'. If it's in the game, it's canon. ESO is canon.

Ajaxandriel

LadyNerevar wrote: »

Here's a great quote from Loremaster Lawrence Schick on the nature of truth and interpretation in Tamriel:

...All the lore in the game is delivered from the standpoint of people in Tamriel. In that way, Elder Scrolls is different from most fantasy campaign worlds, right? I mean, the typical paradigm, you know - George RR Martin with Westeros, Tolkien with Middle Earth, the familiar D&D worlds of The Forgotten Realms or the world of Greyhawk - those all have histories and backgrounds that are all laid out and they’ve all got some lore-daddy who decided everything and everything is ‘this is how it is’, so everything works within the envelope of things that are already decided.

Elder Scrolls - Tamriel - does not follow that paradigm. In Elder Scrolls, all lore is delivered not from on high by revelation, but from people who live their lives in the game, in the world of the game, and based on their beliefs. So that does two things for us: It means the lore always carries not just information about what the person is talking about, but also information about the person and their culture. Because the way the lore is delivered tells you how they believe things actually work in the world.

What this means, of course, is that people have different viewpoints - these viewpoints sometimes contradict each other, and so sometimes we have players saying “alright, this person believes that, and that person believes this other thing, but which one’s the real thing?” Well... it’s not a world like ours. In a world like ours, where you can sort of trust in science and say “well yes, people have different beliefs but I know there is an objective reality.” This is a world of myth. This is a world where reality is actually changeable, where the Divines can change not only what happens going forward, but what has happened in the past. So, you know, the idea there is an objective reality behind all these different people’s opinions is not necessarily the case in the world of Tamriel. So listen to what all these different people have to say, make up your own mind, make up your own beliefs about what happened and you’re as liable - since you’re playing in their world and you’re playing a character in their world - what you think happened is as legitimate as what that NPC thinks.

Yeah, this is the way I support because it is just as a real world "canon" is meant to work like

"Facts" - what one can witness and testify (actual game) ; "beliefs" - what one can read somewhere (some cool lore text or fanfic). Last and least, "authorities" - canon as seen by the bigots

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

As is see it, even if it is cannon, CHIM, Amaranth and all that dream stuff is just as easy for an excuse as "dragon breaks".

Maybe the "excuse" concept merge with the "explanation" here, when the facts or the strongest beliefs are inconsistent with each other - that can happen IRL History - What any scholar NPC is meant to do ? In a world where magic, illusion and memory-manipulation are a thing ? in a world where a word can be a spell, a fiction can become a (fake) truth ?
It's like a perpetual "what if...?"
It reminds me the real-life conspiracies of the "Recentists" (New Chronology)

psychotrip

SirAxen wrote: »

I don't reckon I've ever seen an IP more argued over on what is 'canon'. If it's in the game, it's canon. ESO is canon.

What if two games say opposite things? In Morrowind, for example, people described Cyrodiil as a jungle. This wasn't in some old book or anything. Regular NPCs, some even imperials themselves, would describe Cyrodiil as a river-based society full of "endless jungle".

How do you reconcile this with what we see in Oblivion? If we go by your "everything in-game is canon" argument, then you literally can't. This is when things start getting more complicated.

Let me give you another example. In earlier games, orcish armor is described as being made of steel, and based on high elven designs. The implication was that orcs were so damn good at smithing that they could take regular steel and make something both stronger and lighter than conventional armor (since orcish was considered medium armor).

Yet in Oblivion, elven armor looks nothing like orcish armor, and in Skyrim we discover that orcs make their armor out of Orichalcum: an ore that's just naturally better than iron. Before Skyrim, Orichalcum had nothing to do with the orcs at all. It was only mentioned in relation to ancient redguards.

Often, we try to fix these contradictions through retro-active justifications (transcription errors, CHIM, exaggerations etc) but at some point we just need to accept that The Elder Scrolls is a complete mess when it comes to internal consistency.

At what point does the reliance on unreliable narrators and dragon-breaks just become sloppy worldbuilding?