I used to be against class changes , but I think its time to offer this.

Jade1986

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You have 15 character slots available...

That's room for one of each class, one of each role.

If a change happens, you can respec from Mag to Stam or vice versa with in game gold, attributes, CP's, and skillpoints.

There is zero reason to offer class change and it's not that hard to level to 50, if you're truly wanting to switch things up that much.

It's the very reason I ultimately end up leveling every skill.

8 Slots if you havent purchased another 7. Sorry for the requote.

Jade1986

Moonscythe wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

They won't offer class changes as the effort to implement this doesn't stand up against the benefits. They already said that.

Why are class changes intrinsically harder than a total re-spec or a race change? Just hit me on the head and tell me that unfortunate episode as a NB or whatever was just a dream. I just put my points back in a different order from a different menu. I don't see what the problem is and the benefits are obvious. The players are happy. What is wrong with the players being happy?

I just think QoL fixes are a good thing. Guess I could be wrong?

Moonscythe

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Class change tokens would. Make them 10000 crowns I don't really care. Price them high so that people will still be encouraged to buy character slots and other things for the cheaper price but just put them in.

No! Not expensive or at least more expensive than new slots or major changes. What is with the mean-spirited feelings of established players? I am sick to death of making new characters just because I have to if I want to play a different class, such as warden, or get the freebies like house storage for all my characters. I have old characters I wouldn't mind retiring permanently but they know everything I have learned since launch and I can't transfer that knowledge. I know a motif I have never found in the wild and can't buy from the store as a single, which I did the first time. It may be available from a trader but I hate searching all of Tamriel for one elusive item. I like that motif.

Jade1986

Moonscythe wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Class change tokens would. Make them 10000 crowns I don't really care. Price them high so that people will still be encouraged to buy character slots and other things for the cheaper price but just put them in.

No! Not expensive or at least more expensive than new slots or major changes. What is with the mean-spirited feelings of established players? I am sick to death of making new characters just because I have to if I want to play a different class, such as warden, or get the freebies like house storage for all my characters. I have old characters I wouldn't mind retiring permanently but they know everything I have learned since launch and I can't transfer that knowledge. I know a motif I have never found in the wild and can't buy from the store as a single, which I did the first time. It may be available from a trader but I hate searching all of Tamriel for one elusive item. I like that motif.

Ive noticed this too.

<< Beta player btw, and I dont see anything wrong with QoL improvements. I never understood the whole " I suffered through it, so you have to suffer through it " mentality, why not improve something instead of keeping it the same when it clearly is a masisve burden.

rafaelcsmaia

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Everyone's solution for this is always "just make an alt" when the achievement system directly contradicts with that solution.

I have 12 characters. Many of the characters were designed for PvP and yet I find myself never playing them because the way ZoS designed PvP rank and achievements directly discourages me from playing any character other than my main in PvP. Yeah I have other PvE characters that I play when the content requires I play a certain way but other than that, many of my alts sit and collect dust because ZoS gives me no incentive to play on them. Usually what happens is I kill one mob in a dungeon and get a mosnter trophy my main has been searching for for ages and then get really really mad.

It takes like 68 mil AP to get to rank 50. I'm rank 36. What incentive do I have to play any character other than my main? It sucks too because I would really like to have a different experience sometimes but it's just not feasible with how many more rank-ups I still need.

There are still lots of us who care about achievement score and the whole "just make an alt" solution holds littler to no merit with us. None of my other 11 characters have solved the issue. Class change tokens would. Make them 10000 crowns I don't really care. Price them high so that people will still be encouraged to buy character slots and other things for the cheaper price but just put them in.

Your analogy is perfect, those are my thoughts in a nutshell

Merlin13KAGL

Aquanova wrote:

I'm all for class change. Let me explain why.

If I buy a car and then feel like it's not the car for me there's a thing called "buyer's remorse". It's not that the car changed at all just my desire for it.

However, if I buy a car and love it but the dealer came to my house and removed things they wanted to for what ever reason no matter how minor it may be, without my consent (excluding factory recalls) then i should be allowed to choose another car since it's no longer what i originally payed for.

With all the change features we have already I don't see why class change is not permitted.

Jade1986 wrote:

Very nice analogy.

@Aquanova , you gave your consent when you agreed to the ToS. Nothing is preventing you from choosing another car. Feel free to choose one for any of the other 14 empty spaces in your garage, or use one that is already there.

You have the option to mod many things on your car, at minimal cost, even being able to change the make, model, transmission type, etc.

What you don't get to do is pay the dealer $X and turn your car into a speedboat or an airplane.

You can, however, fill one of your vehicle slots with either of those and take the time to be as proficient with them as you were with your car prior to the change.

Im sorry, unless you grind to your little hearts content, it is not quick at all to get FG or MG, or undaunted.

I already indicated that MG takes some time.

Again, FG is a piece of cake, easy to max well before 50 simply by killing things. If you dark anchor, it will go even faster. If you Undaunted, you'll be getting a lot of FG kills in the process as well.

Undaunted 3 you get from basically walking in the door.

Undaunted 5 gets you access to all the skills

Undaunted 7 gets you access to both passives (at 50% max value)

Undaunted 9, (which is not necessary, but a bonus) can be acquired in 25 hours or less.

That's <50 hours for:

• A character at full CP (assuming you already had CP) ~ we'll rephrase this as a CP capable character.
• Most of your main skills morphed, if not maxed.
• Most of your class lines maxed.
• Maxed Alchemy
• Maxed Provisioning
• Max FG
• Max Undaunted (Just a touch over 9, enough for all passives, maybe just not the 'title')
• Quite a few skyshards/skillpoints (each Group dungeon grants you a full point, each MG daily sends you to a Public which will grant you 1 1/3 points)
• A small bite out of MG/lorebooks

<50 hours for a full capable character is still quite reasonable.

The horse training is perhaps the biggest pain in the ass. If you're willing to part with crowns for class change, I suspect it wouldn't be a long walk (pun intended) to part with crowns for riding lessons.

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Everyone's solution for this is always "just make an alt" when the achievement system directly contradicts with that solution.

I have 12 characters. Many of the characters were designed for PvP and yet I find myself never playing them because the way ZoS designed PvP rank and achievements directly discourages me from playing any character other than my main in PvP. Yeah I have other PvE characters that I play when the content requires I play a certain way but other than that, many of my alts sit and collect dust because ZoS gives me no incentive to play on them. Usually what happens is I kill one mob in a dungeon and get a mosnter trophy my main has been searching for for ages and then get really really mad.

It takes like 68 mil AP to get to rank 50. I'm rank 36. What incentive do I have to play any character other than my main? It sucks too because I would really like to have a different experience sometimes but it's just not feasible with how many more rank-ups I still need.

There are still lots of us who care about achievement score and the whole "just make an alt" solution holds littler to no merit with us. None of my other 11 characters have solved the issue. Class change tokens would. Make them 10000 crowns I don't really care. Price them high so that people will still be encouraged to buy character slots and other things for the cheaper price but just put them in.

@Apache_Kid an account wide Achievement points summary would remedy this.

Aside from the skillpoints and the titles, once you've unlocked all the Alliance War passives (Rank 13), what would preclude you from playing an alt?

Narvuntien

If you like your character for personal reasons you'll make them work and characters of all classes and roles work just fine for everything except for the very hardest of content... and even then you get a guild that are likely to let you try with something suboptimal and still succeed.

If you want a meta character for the purposes of being meta... make a new character.

purple-magicb16_ESO

They need to offer as much flexibility as possible so players can keep up with the bis shell game. Everytime they nerf, the crown store cash register rings.

Apache_Kid

Moonscythe wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Class change tokens would. Make them 10000 crowns I don't really care. Price them high so that people will still be encouraged to buy character slots and other things for the cheaper price but just put them in.

No! Not expensive or at least more expensive than new slots or major changes. What is with the mean-spirited feelings of established players? I am sick to death of making new characters just because I have to if I want to play a different class, such as warden, or get the freebies like house storage for all my characters. I have old characters I wouldn't mind retiring permanently but they know everything I have learned since launch and I can't transfer that knowledge. I know a motif I have never found in the wild and can't buy from the store as a single, which I did the first time. It may be available from a trader but I hate searching all of Tamriel for one elusive item. I like that motif.

I just don't care at this point. Obviously id love it to be as cheap as possible but I just want the tokens at this point and will literally pay any price.

Apache_Kid

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Aquanova wrote:

I'm all for class change. Let me explain why.

If I buy a car and then feel like it's not the car for me there's a thing called "buyer's remorse". It's not that the car changed at all just my desire for it.

However, if I buy a car and love it but the dealer came to my house and removed things they wanted to for what ever reason no matter how minor it may be, without my consent (excluding factory recalls) then i should be allowed to choose another car since it's no longer what i originally payed for.

With all the change features we have already I don't see why class change is not permitted.

Jade1986 wrote:

Very nice analogy.

@Aquanova , you gave your consent when you agreed to the ToS. Nothing is preventing you from choosing another car. Feel free to choose one for any of the other 14 empty spaces in your garage, or use one that is already there.

You have the option to mod many things on your car, at minimal cost, even being able to change the make, model, transmission type, etc.

What you don't get to do is pay the dealer $X and turn your car into a speedboat or an airplane.

You can, however, fill one of your vehicle slots with either of those and take the time to be as proficient with them as you were with your car prior to the change.

Im sorry, unless you grind to your little hearts content, it is not quick at all to get FG or MG, or undaunted.

I already indicated that MG takes some time.

Again, FG is a piece of cake, easy to max well before 50 simply by killing things. If you dark anchor, it will go even faster. If you Undaunted, you'll be getting a lot of FG kills in the process as well.

Undaunted 3 you get from basically walking in the door.

Undaunted 5 gets you access to all the skills

Undaunted 7 gets you access to both passives (at 50% max value)

Undaunted 9, (which is not necessary, but a bonus) can be acquired in 25 hours or less.

That's <50 hours for:

• A character at full CP (assuming you already had CP) ~ we'll rephrase this as a CP capable character.
• Most of your main skills morphed, if not maxed.
• Most of your class lines maxed.
• Maxed Alchemy
• Maxed Provisioning
• Max FG
• Max Undaunted (Just a touch over 9, enough for all passives, maybe just not the 'title')
• Quite a few skyshards/skillpoints (each Group dungeon grants you a full point, each MG daily sends you to a Public which will grant you 1 1/3 points)
• A small bite out of MG/lorebooks

<50 hours for a full capable character is still quite reasonable.

The horse training is perhaps the biggest pain in the ass. If you're willing to part with crowns for class change, I suspect it wouldn't be a long walk (pun intended) to part with crowns for riding lessons.

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Everyone's solution for this is always "just make an alt" when the achievement system directly contradicts with that solution.

I have 12 characters. Many of the characters were designed for PvP and yet I find myself never playing them because the way ZoS designed PvP rank and achievements directly discourages me from playing any character other than my main in PvP. Yeah I have other PvE characters that I play when the content requires I play a certain way but other than that, many of my alts sit and collect dust because ZoS gives me no incentive to play on them. Usually what happens is I kill one mob in a dungeon and get a mosnter trophy my main has been searching for for ages and then get really really mad.

It takes like 68 mil AP to get to rank 50. I'm rank 36. What incentive do I have to play any character other than my main? It sucks too because I would really like to have a different experience sometimes but it's just not feasible with how many more rank-ups I still need.

There are still lots of us who care about achievement score and the whole "just make an alt" solution holds littler to no merit with us. None of my other 11 characters have solved the issue. Class change tokens would. Make them 10000 crowns I don't really care. Price them high so that people will still be encouraged to buy character slots and other things for the cheaper price but just put them in.

@Apache_Kid an account wide Achievement points summary would remedy this.

Aside from the skillpoints and the titles, once you've unlocked all the Alliance War passives (Rank 13), what would preclude you from playing an alt?

It's the achievements. The symbol next to my name. The decoy elder scroll I want to unlock.

I want all of these things. They take so many countless hours to get so I am discouraged from playing anything but my main in PvP who is rank 36. Don't get me wrong I still love that character but it's just getting boring. Sometimes I would just like to be able to play different classes without having to feel like I'm wasting valuable time on a character that'll never be at 50 alliance rank.

josiahva

Jade1986 wrote: »

I used to be very against class changes, I was a firm believer in your choices should matter. However, we have gotten to the point where this needs to be a thing , so many balance changes are done, and things added / taken away that " just leveling " a new toon , is no longer feasible, people will either have to delete characters they have spent a very long time on, or spend mony on a new slot. And if I am going to spend money on something, I would rather just change my class. Not to mention adding new classes and then people already have all their toons at cp and all their slots filled up. @ZOS_GinaBruno was this ever discussed, or is it on the table at all?

Dont you have at least one of each class? Yes? Then no class changes are needed, just re-spec as you need to...I dont often play most of my toons and a I dare say most people stick with 2 or 3 they play on a regular basis anyway.

Merlin13KAGL

@Apache_Kid certainly being the longest achievement to acquire, perhaps an account wide achievement for this one? A counter that would track AP across all characters, providing progress for the highest rank overall and the AP counter to match?

Then there could be a settings option for you to use this account wide Rank or the actual rank of an alt?

That would give you the best of both worlds, and still reflective of your time spent in the war effort. Lord knows you don't accidentally get to rank 36 without putting the effort in.

Apache_Kid

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Apache_Kid certainly being the longest achievement to acquire, perhaps an account wide achievement for this one? A counter that would track AP across all characters, providing progress for the highest rank overall and the AP counter to match?

Then there could be a settings option for you to use this account wide Rank or the actual rank of an alt?

That would give you the best of both worlds, and still reflective of your time spent in the war effort. Lord knows you don't accidentally get to rank 36 without putting the effort in.

Account-wide per alliance would even be something I would accept tbh but yeah that would go a LONG way towards alleviating all of my issues with this.

Septimus_Magna

Jade1986 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nah, dont be lazy and just level another char.
It doesnt take that long to reach lvl50.

Getting Undaunted 9 doesnt take that long if you do daily pledges.
Getting the Alliance War skills only took me about 8 hours on my stam DK last week.
On magicka builds its even faster because you can use a resto staff.

The benefit is that you'll have all classes after a while so you can jump the FotM bandwagon whenever there are changes.

Technically you are -being- lazy by spending the hours sitting on your butt to make a new toon. Just playing devils advocate here. =D

Haha, it depends what you define as lazy I guess.

Class and alliance are the only things you cannot change after you've made a character.
I dont think that should change because it will reduce class diversity even more.

Jade1986

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Nah, dont be lazy and just level another char.
It doesnt take that long to reach lvl50.

Getting Undaunted 9 doesnt take that long if you do daily pledges.
Getting the Alliance War skills only took me about 8 hours on my stam DK last week.
On magicka builds its even faster because you can use a resto staff.

The benefit is that you'll have all classes after a while so you can jump the FotM bandwagon whenever there are changes.

Technically you are -being- lazy by spending the hours sitting on your butt to make a new toon. Just playing devils advocate here. =D

Haha, it depends what you define as lazy I guess.

Class and alliance are the only things you cannot change after you've made a character.
I dont think that should change because it will reduce class diversity even more.

I dont think it should be unlimited, I said a while back, and I guess I shouldve specified that each account could get like 1 class change per year or something like that. Make it very restrictive so it would reduce flip flopping, but also serves to let players change classes, say if a new class is released, and if they use it to go from warden to NB for example, thats on them.

I think that would be a nice middle ground.

Jade1986

josiahva wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

I used to be very against class changes, I was a firm believer in your choices should matter. However, we have gotten to the point where this needs to be a thing , so many balance changes are done, and things added / taken away that " just leveling " a new toon , is no longer feasible, people will either have to delete characters they have spent a very long time on, or spend mony on a new slot. And if I am going to spend money on something, I would rather just change my class. Not to mention adding new classes and then people already have all their toons at cp and all their slots filled up. @ZOS_GinaBruno was this ever discussed, or is it on the table at all?

Dont you have at least one of each class? Yes? Then no class changes are needed, just re-spec as you need to...I dont often play most of my toons and a I dare say most people stick with 2 or 3 they play on a regular basis anyway.

I dont, actually. I just recently purchased a single slot and had to delete atoon because I wanted to make 3 NBs. I usually play warden, dd, tank, healer. But I got tired of the class and how conveluted it is, and so far I am having fun with my new NB toons, however I would have rather switched my main to a NB so I at least had one that was top level.

TheShadowScout

Jade1986 wrote: »

I used to be against class changes , but I think its time to offer this...

I think, not quite yet time. But if they -ever- add yet another new class, then it would be very painful not to have this!

I still hope they won't, that they will see the light and pick -some- alternate mechanic, perhaps something like the "Prestige classes" idea I keep mentioning every so often: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369966/class-morph-idea-mk-ii

Especially since the last word we had on this matter was still that they don't intend to ever do a class change feature. (admittedly, the info is quite dated, and they can always choose to change their mind...)

Acrolas

Really, people would just complain about the cost of the service and how it's prohibitive to chasing the monthly flavor.

There are ways to offer flexibility without class changes, though.


For fun, I'm proposing a Borrowed Essence skill line for the next Chapter.

SKILL LEECH
Once every 24 hours, you can select one non-Ultimate skill from any class and actively use it. This ability is disabled after 2 hours but all experience gained and morphs selected during that time are retained.

COMBAT SHIFT
Once every 24 hours, you can select one non-Ultimate skill you currently know. For 2 hours, all magicka requirements are changed to stamina, and all stamina requirements are changed to magicka. Health requirements remain unchanged.

FORBEARANCE
Once every 24 hours, you can select one non-Ultimate skill you currently know. For 2 hours, all damage is reduced by 75% but you are healed for 100% of the damage dealt.

SHIFT OF LUCK
Once every 24 hours, you can select one passive, non-ranked Level 1 Racial skill of a Race you currently have access to. For two hours, your current Racial skill is replaced.


And people would then complain about the cost of the Chapter and how it's prohibitive to chasing the monthly flavor. It's just a theme in online games where some people have to protest all new content while never being happy with the current content. Like that second M in MMO stands for Miserly or something...

Princess_Ciri

anyone who deletes a class because it's not meta for a few patches is an idiot anyway.

DocFrost72

Turelus wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

ESO should move away from classes entirely. With the introduction of spellcrafting rumored for this year and the new universal tree, I think it'd be a great opportunity to go completely classless. That'd be a huge announcement and would get a lot of people excited about the game in a series that traditionally doesn't have classes.

Let people mix and match.

The problem with a classless system is it would further remove diversity of builds.
Right now there is at least some differenced in gameplay between the classes, take their limiters away and we'll just end up with one or two builds per role/attribute.

A little off topic, but as pushback:

There would be less diversity in the *meta*, and maybe. People who play for fun would get more options. It's not like min maxers already have a substantial variety of sets and skills anyway: stam toons vary by 2-4 skills as to what is equipped in end game pve dps.

rafaelcsmaia

What people fail to understand is people asking for the tokens are NOT the fotm seekers, they either want to play a single 'main' character with another class and keep achievements or is a roleplay matter.

FOTM people WILL change specs, no matter what, every patch, by doing another character and power leveling them in the mean time you do dailies, thats the truth.

Sparr0w

For this as grinding is effort & I've got 4 stamblades...

Jade1986

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

What people fail to understand is people asking for the tokens are NOT the fotm seekers, they either want to play a single 'main' character with another class and keep achievements or is a roleplay matter.

FOTM people WILL change specs, no matter what, every patch, by doing another character and power leveling them in the mean time you do dailies, thats the truth.

This to the T. I got one hundred percent tired of my wardens, and spent an ungodly amount of time on them, but now I am forced to reroll and do EVERYTHING over again? That just seems like really bad design imo.

NewBlacksmurf

I’d argue that instead of class changes, these should move to a One Tamriel concept where the class lines are obtained by an NPC short quest.

If people want to swap or change they’d just talk to that same NPC after paying X among of gold, and then do the quest for the other NPC class trainer. What would follow is leveling up the skills again for the new class once per character.

I can’t see any benefits to class changes, only benefits to it being a skill line like weapons or dlc skill lines.

Just my point of view tho.

Jade1986

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I’d argue that instead of class changes, these should move to a One Tamriel concept where the class lines are obtained by an NPC short quest.

If people want to swap or change they’d just talk to that same NPC after paying X among of gold, and then do the quest for the other NPC class trainer. What would follow is leveling up the skills again for the new class once per character.

I can’t see any benefits to class changes, only benefits to it being a skill line like weapons or dlc skill lines.

Just my point of view tho.

This would be a good middle ground, and Id totally be fine with that.

Timeraider

At one hand, changing class is quite annoying yeah.. at the other hand.. well.. 1 day of grinding Spellscar? Its not the end i guess.
biggest problems ofc. are losing story and quest progress and having to redo that stuff yeah

rafaelcsmaia

Also I was thinking here to myself, how would it be hard to have mutually exclusive and interchangeable class lines ingame? Where have I seen that before... Werewolf and vampire? thats exactly how it should be done

NewBlacksmurf

Jade1986 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I’d argue that instead of class changes, these should move to a One Tamriel concept where the class lines are obtained by an NPC short quest.

If people want to swap or change they’d just talk to that same NPC after paying X among of gold, and then do the quest for the other NPC class trainer. What would follow is leveling up the skills again for the new class once per character.

I can’t see any benefits to class changes, only benefits to it being a skill line like weapons or dlc skill lines.

Just my point of view tho.

This would be a good middle ground, and Id totally be fine with that.

@Jade1986

As I think more on this.....perhaps the best option is to remove they way classes seem to just appear at the character creation screen.

An observation I’ve had for a while is that TES traditionally introduce knowledge through NPC Guilds and this game doesn’t use that logic for classes. Oddly there also aren’t class guilds and I don’t know the lore well enough to suggest class guilds should be added for my idea.

Perhaps the better suggestion is that these skills fall under exhisting guilds with my idea so it makes sense. Just think of it as a second part of the Guild interaction and I think folks would accept it.

Sadly this should’ve occurred in Summerset Chapter but I doubt that’s the case. So IF and it’s a big IF.....spell crafting is coming, this would be the way it’s done along with removing how we choose classes. In this I’m o k with there being a need for choice at the new character AFTER creation but during the first experience via a book or some NPC or both. Now and if done like this is makes sense as the new chapter or DLC pack offers class change during redoing this dlc.

I’d love “/lurk” @ZOS_RichLambert to comment in this thread. Many ideas bouncing around cause of the opportunity

dodgehopper_ESO

Aquanova wrote: »

I'm all for class change. Let me explain why.

If I buy a car and then feel like it's not the car for me there's a thing called "buyer's remorse". It's not that the car changed at all just my desire for it.

However, if I buy a car and love it but the dealer came to my house and removed things they wanted to for what ever reason no matter how minor it may be, without my consent (excluding factory recalls) then i should be allowed to choose another car since it's no longer what i originally payed for.

With all the change features we have already I don't see why class change is not permitted.

The thing that is wrong about it is getting charged for replacement cost of the things the auto dealer took from your car. This is true of races and classes alike. If the balance is really bad I believe the developers should pay the cost for that, not the players.

Datolite

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Btw, could we get necromancer class, and some warrior/stamina class?

Barbariannnnn!!!