Will ZoS be signing up to THE FAIR PLAY ALLIANCE?

Elsonso

rustic_potato wrote: »

So people are mad that the alliance will force gamers to be civil inside their games?

I think that people are "mad" (your term, not mine) that the alliance will define "civil" along the lines of definitions that they don't agree with. As with many organizations like this, the rules may end up being arbitrary and along social or political lines, often times leaning in the direction of the fickle, but oh so important, social media wind. These may conflict with what many people rightfully think of as acceptable speech.

In a crazy example to illustrate, would you be in violation of this civility for saying that people are "mad"? That is somewhat of an insult and could be considered baiting. You are labeling someone with a hostile emotion that might not apply. Would you be willing to accept a suspension or ban for saying that?

Will it get that far? Doubt it. Do I want them to try it and see if I am right? No.

MajBludd

Glad I grew up in the 80's and 90's. Too many people get triggered by the slightest things these days. So, sensitive.

zParallaxz

Carbonised wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

How about signing up for an alliance where they agree to not fill their games with exploitative and predatory practises such as loot boxes, gambling subsystems and other incentives to prey on the inherent psychological behaviour of people for the sake of maximising profit.

Yeah how about that, huh.

of course, there cant be a thread without the obligatory 'i hate crates' post from someone who has no idea what the thread is about can there.

Predatory practises and exploitative schemes from gaming companies is a much larger problem in modern day gaming than any so-called "toxic behaviour" from the playerbase.

Fortnite has proved if you have a genuinely enjoyable game with small amount of bugs people will support the developers by buying cosmetic items. That’s why fortnite is quite profitable even though it’s a free game.

Doctordarkspawn

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Ancientwolf

You can regulate what people see, but never what they think, or even say in their own like-minded circles. This sort of over-reach is exactly why companies like Facebook are now under extreme fire. I've never met an insult or opposing opinion that I couldnt walk away from, and certainly dont need a collective to protect me from such.

Its more about some kind of retribution or power trip to take something away from someone you dont agree with, dont like, or heavens forbid, made you cry.

Just no.

Bhaal5

Lol if zos did something about their toxic player base...... Half the population would be gone

Soul_Marrow

Ancientwolf wrote: »

You can regulate what people see, but never what they think, or even say in their own like-minded circles. This sort of over-reach is exactly why companies like Facebook are now under extreme fire. I've never met an insult or opposing opinion that I couldnt walk away from, and certainly dont need a collective to protect me from such.

Its more about some kind of retribution or power trip to take something away from someone you dont agree with, dont like, or heavens forbid, made you cry.

Just no.

Exactly. I see it more as lip service and virtue signaling for shilling purposes. Pathetic.

houjo2000b16_ESO

[Edited to remove quote]


Pretty sure most games have a TOS that covers those things- look at the actual website and you'll see they're about evaluating and manipulating player behaviour.

Besides, you telling someone to log off could be considered toxicity, you ready for your ban? People don't realize just how ultra sensitive games are becoming. The problem is this doesn't end here, it starts- everyone knows one of the major reasons it occurs is anonymity on the internet, and this is just step one in the process of normalizing unmasking people. It doesn't lead to good thing, you might think it doesn't matter if everyone's personal information is out there for everyone to see, but for many it's a huge deal for various very good reasons.

People don't have these fears that huge corporations and political groups will abuse this once it gains enough steam out of something trivial, we have it because it has been proven, over and over and over, that these groups WILL abuse it given time.

Just look at how innocently microtransactions and RNG loot started, and is now a blight on the industry so severe countries are getting involved to curb it.

Ankael07

Juju_beans wrote: »

So companies are going to do something about toxic players ?

They already have the tools to do that now....the ban hammer and suspensions.
All they need to do is step up and be a be more proactive about dealing with reports on players.

And thats why I think this is an attempt to divert players attention from the recent loot box scandal of EA. Keep players busy, keep them from uniting against lootboxes

DaveMoeDee

zParallaxz wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

How about signing up for an alliance where they agree to not fill their games with exploitative and predatory practises such as loot boxes, gambling subsystems and other incentives to prey on the inherent psychological behaviour of people for the sake of maximising profit.

Yeah how about that, huh.

of course, there cant be a thread without the obligatory 'i hate crates' post from someone who has no idea what the thread is about can there.

Predatory practises and exploitative schemes from gaming companies is a much larger problem in modern day gaming than any so-called "toxic behaviour" from the playerbase.

Fortnite has proved if you have a genuinely enjoyable game with small amount of bugs people will support the developers by buying cosmetic items. That’s why fortnite is quite profitable even though it’s a free game.

Especially if you don't spend much to develop the product. Things are more complicated for games that cost a lot to develop.

Saturn

Carbonised wrote: »

How about signing up for an alliance where they agree to not fill their games with exploitative and predatory practises such as loot boxes, gambling subsystems and other incentives to prey on the inherent psychological behaviour of people for the sake of maximising profit.

Yeah how about that, huh.

Money over morals seems to be the name of the game. And the systems in place that could actually make games more consumer-friendly, such as PEGI and ESRB, are doing nothing about this growing problem. We can all pretend that if we don't give them our money it'll go away, but there's still enough people supporting these predatory consumer models that they won't be leaving any time soon.

KyleTheYounger

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I will buy the most expensive crown store house available on both my account and my girlfriends if ZOS announces publically that they will never join this corporate censorship alliance.

I'm cheering you on this 100%.

Just as long as you swear never to try and sanctify this any further by drinking bleach or eating tide pods, Okay?

firedrgn

Whats the deal with people killing and mudering stealing as they whine about what other people spend their money on and other stuff

KyleTheYounger

Soul_Marrow wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

reiverx wrote: »

Quite a few ESO emotes are there to embarrass/humiliate/aggravate other players.

Just killed a ganker... kiss this, belly laugh, do a few push-ups, stamp the ground, then eat some spoiled food to finish up.

Yeah those emotes are really out of place, and seem designed to just grief other players. At least those such as teatime, kiss this and flip the bird and whatnot. I think they simply ran out of ideas of what else to make, and thought "hey, some good ol' taunts are always good".

Emotes are griefing other players now? It’s just a harmless way of interacting. It’s an MMORPG after all.

I don't consider myself particularly sensitive, it just baffles me why such a large and ongoing part of the custom emotes we are offered seem to specifically be designed with the sole purpose of taunting other players, like, they're literally designed with this goal in mind, when we all know that the current player vs. player atmosphere is quite strained, at best.

No, I'm not saying "emotes are griefing", I'm saying they can easily be used as such, considering they have been specifically designed as a provocation towards other players. How else would you interpret "kiss this" (kiss my a$$), "tea time" (sexual innuendo) and "flip the bird" (slang for giving the middle finger).

Because that's part of the fun of competitive gaming. You, me, and everyone else knows and understands this. Those exist because it's fun to win and when you win, most enjoy playfully gloating. It's no different than riffing with your buddies and making fun of one another. This PC stuff makes me physically sick.

THIS.

It's not just the obvious cheats/illegal bots that ruin game play. There's another twist to this sort of griefing as well. IMO the danger of FP Alliance is the capacity for it to be exploited/abused. Because of its potential capacity to be used as a weapon where censorship of player behavior is concerned. Here's the perfect Machiavellian example how this could be exploited for the worse in ESO.

I was online yesterday and standing in a merchant's store sorting my inventory. Noticed a player PC #1 (a Dark Elf Warden at n00b rank 13), clumsily fiddling with a justice container in plain view of the store merchant NPC. Given their n00b skill level, they were predictably having a high failure rate trying to open the extremely hard level lock. And racking up quite a bounty while they were at it.

Moments afterward, PC #2 (a DB dressed Khajiit at DB executioner/veteran level 56) skulked into the store. PC #2 began looting the store containers. It was clear this player was the more skilled/experienced player at thieving because they successfully vacuumed all the store's container loot on the fly within seconds of entering.

Several seconds later, the Khajit PC#2 arrived at the final unlooted container aka the justice container which PC #1 had been so diligently attempting to lockpick. And quite predictably, PC#2 relieved the justice container of it's loot (in that brief penalty cool down period PC #1 had between broken lock picks).

Then the Hunger Games began in earnest.

Dark Elf Warden PC#1: WTF? WTH U steal my chest? <--literally what this player typed in the game window

Khajit DB Executioner PC #2 : *LMAO emote*

Dark Elf Warden PC#1: *charges over to Khajit player, their dual sheath weapon arms churning like a windmill*
F&@K U U fugly p#ssy U! <--Yes. Literally what this player typed in the game window. I'm still uncertain if said pun was intended.

Khajit DB Executioner PC #2 : *even more hysterical LMAO emotes*

All the while, my DB master assassin stood by, completely transfixed by this vitriolic, ad hominem exchange. Watching mystified as said victimized Dark Elf PC#1 began a hopelessly futile attempt to murder Khajit PC#2. On a PvE server. After a min or so being mesmerized how PC #1's impotent spells/weapon strikes appeared to be triggering them into an apoplectic fit of rage, this happened:

Khajiit DB Master Executioner: Ok you win. Try to be quicker the next time k? Now top of the day to you Sir!
*Khajiit player promptly teleports to destination unknown*

And yes, the Khajiit player literally typed that rebuttal, before promptly FTing out of the store for another map world instance. Where I'm sure they merrily went about continuing to enjoy their ESO experience, and playing the game the way it was intended. Leaving behind incredulous Dunmer PC#1 (who by now had a very high bounty and was near dangerous stroke threshold levels), raging on about how unfair life was, how they were going to kill this player if they ever encountered them again etc etc.

Several moments later, this player suffered another fatal loss in situational awareness. They charged out the shop, directly into the arms of a patrolling guard, and the subsequent, inevitable embrace of Father Sithis for their impudence in resisting arrest.

As I live and breathe.

Assuming both these players were TG members, this had to be one of the funniest cases of Pot, meet Kettle. Especially where gross incompetence and individual player skill (within the context of game play) were concerned.

But on a serious note, this is exactly how this sort of PC enforcement could go really wrong if implemented by Zenimax in the future.

1. PC#1 and PC#2 are gamers RPing thief characters.
2. They both have the same opportunity to go after the same chest as designed by ESO game mechanics
3. PC#2 --through natural competitive game play -- wins the lockpicking competition by virtue of being the better player by experience
4. PC#1 is left the sore loser. Who is perhaps internalizing this RP loss as yet another incident that causes them to feel "bullied", "persecuted", and/or "victimized" they way real life might make them feel. At which point
5. PC#1 then complains to the game authorities/Zmax game masters
6. Zmax game masters then aggressively hunt down/suspend/ban PC#2. And punishes them for being successful at beating the grind fest this game was designed to be

I hope my experience in playing this game NEVER devolves to this level of player abuse. Because this is what FP Alliance has the potential to ultimately do. Use socially subjective censorship to ruin a player's ability to competitively play the game the way it was designed. Permit the destructive practice of slandering/labeling players as "bullies" by other players who may be lacking in emotional and/or chronological maturity to play a competitive, team oriented MMO.

Grimm13

BelleSorciere wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BelleSorciere wrote: »

KyleTheYounger wrote: »

I hope my experience in playing this game NEVER devolves to this level of player abuse. Because this is what FP Alliance has the potential to ultimately do. Use socially subjective censorship to ruin a player's ability to competitively play the game the way it was designed. Permit the destructive practice of slandering/labeling players as "bullies" by other players who may be lacking in emotional and/or chronological maturity to play a competitive, team oriented MMO.

Wow, this is a huge straw man. You're not even in the field anymore.

Yeah, I'm sure false reporting has never happened before.. Why don't you find the field yourself?

I didn't say false reporting never occurred. It's the idea that ZOS would blindly ban people just because they were reported that's the straw man.

Your straw man is that they would not be. Fact is no one can say one or the other is correct as it has not been set in place. It is the unknown of how it would be used that makes people uneasy.

We see how in other aspects how a small nerf request has now snowballed into a stream of nerfs. People do not seem to be happy with just one change and keep adding to what should be done.

Used to be that your representation in a game mattered, you had consequences to your actions. That's all been changed now causing the growing problem with Toxic behavior.

BelleSorciere

Grimm13 wrote: »

BelleSorciere wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BelleSorciere wrote: »

KyleTheYounger wrote: »

I hope my experience in playing this game NEVER devolves to this level of player abuse. Because this is what FP Alliance has the potential to ultimately do. Use socially subjective censorship to ruin a player's ability to competitively play the game the way it was designed. Permit the destructive practice of slandering/labeling players as "bullies" by other players who may be lacking in emotional and/or chronological maturity to play a competitive, team oriented MMO.

Wow, this is a huge straw man. You're not even in the field anymore.

Yeah, I'm sure false reporting has never happened before.. Why don't you find the field yourself?

I didn't say false reporting never occurred. It's the idea that ZOS would blindly ban people just because they were reported that's the straw man.

Your straw man is that they would not be. Fact is no one can say one or the other is correct as it has not been set in place. It is the unknown of how it would be used that makes people uneasy.

We see how in other aspects how a small nerf request has now snowballed into a stream of nerfs. People do not seem to be happy with just one change and keep adding to what should be done.

Used to be that your representation in a game mattered, you had consequences to your actions. That's all been changed now causing the growing problem with Toxic behavior.

It's not a straw man to point out that reporting someone just because they pissed you off wouldn't be an automatic ban. Just like I didn't say there were no false reports, I didn't say there'd be no wrongful bannings. To clarify, my point is that wrongful bannings wouldn't become policy.

Juju_beans

BelleSorciere wrote: »

Grimm13 wrote: »

BelleSorciere wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BelleSorciere wrote: »

KyleTheYounger wrote: »

I hope my experience in playing this game NEVER devolves to this level of player abuse. Because this is what FP Alliance has the potential to ultimately do. Use socially subjective censorship to ruin a player's ability to competitively play the game the way it was designed. Permit the destructive practice of slandering/labeling players as "bullies" by other players who may be lacking in emotional and/or chronological maturity to play a competitive, team oriented MMO.

Wow, this is a huge straw man. You're not even in the field anymore.

Yeah, I'm sure false reporting has never happened before.. Why don't you find the field yourself?

I didn't say false reporting never occurred. It's the idea that ZOS would blindly ban people just because they were reported that's the straw man.

Your straw man is that they would not be. Fact is no one can say one or the other is correct as it has not been set in place. It is the unknown of how it would be used that makes people uneasy.

We see how in other aspects how a small nerf request has now snowballed into a stream of nerfs. People do not seem to be happy with just one change and keep adding to what should be done.

Used to be that your representation in a game mattered, you had consequences to your actions. That's all been changed now causing the growing problem with Toxic behavior.

It's not a straw man to point out that reporting someone just because they pissed you off wouldn't be an automatic ban. Just like I didn't say there were no false reports, I didn't say there'd be no wrongful bannings. To clarify, my point is that wrongful bannings wouldn't become policy.

Not necessarily...maybe reporting them for "stealing" the chest you were trying to open..."fair gaming"..remember ?

Ydrisselle

The comments of this thread give a fairly good example about the low level toxicity which can easily poison an entire community. Every time somebody says "I rather avoid dungeons/guilds because the people make this game not fun for me" many players are trying to prove that there are very good and social people in the game. It's true. And yet it feels many times very hostile, just because this low level toxicity makes everything bitter.

Skwor

Utter garbage, this is nothing more than bringing in the ultra facist SJW movement into more games. Terrible idea which will do nothing but nueter and in the end create more harrassement when the power of the company is used to enfore the approved “correct thoughts.”

But hey it will be the right kind of people being harrassed and shut down for having the wrong kind of thoughts, so I guess that is ok then...

platonicidealgirlfriend

Skwor wrote: »

But hey it will be the right kind of people being harrassed and shut down for having the wrong kind of thoughts, so I guess that is ok then...

why yes, racists and homophobes should be shut down! glad we agree!!

platonicidealgirlfriend

i'm sounding like a broken record here but? absolutely wild that you wanna complain about utterly boring statements being misinterpreted when I'm pretty clearly talking about something much more dire. Calling a woman a *** or making tired ass jokes about helicopters when someone works up the courage to join voip are utterly toxic in an utterly clear cut way.

WreckfulAbandon

platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »

i'm sounding like a broken record here but? absolutely wild that you wanna complain about utterly boring statements being misinterpreted when I'm pretty clearly talking about something much more dire. Calling a woman a *** or making tired ass jokes about helicopters when someone works up the courage to join voip are utterly toxic in an utterly clear cut way.

I agree those are toxic behaviors you just described. Just wanted to point out that those statements and "utterly boring statements being misinterpreted" are put on par with each other in the minds of some. Not on par severity-wise, but in the same reportable category.

I'm not complaining at all, just giving my thoughts. It's getting intense in here think I'm gonna log on ESO

iannotinbjing

Just adding my voice to those in favour of ZOS signing up to the Fair Play Alliance. It's not going to eliminate toxic behaviour, but supporting those principles is a positive step, I reckon.

houjo2000b16_ESO

[Edited to remove quote]

And racist, homophobic, etc... comments are already clearly covered by every game's TOS- again, look at the site, see the sorts of workshops/events they're holding, they're about player behaviour manipulation and people should be concerned about that.

Making an environment where everyone's afraid to even talk for fear of a ban isn't good for gaming either. League of Legends comes to mind- you can be reported there for offenses as small as not being good at the game, and anything that anyone could possibly consider offensive being said is instantly met with someone replying 'reported'. Now, perhaps to you this seems great, justice is done.

Chat is dead in LoL, it's dead in HotS, it's dead in so many games that are supposed to be team games because people don't want to deal with the hassle of possibly being reported. Not to mention with the increased focus on reporting toxicity (aka- saying anything that might be considered offensive), many games start to rely on automated banning to keep up. Maybe a human GM will end up looking at these reports and say 'this isn't ban worthy at all'; but if you are auto banned for it, and miss three days of play time or whatever the penalty is before a GM has time to deal with it- that effects your experience.

And everyone's, because the only way to avoid it is to not talk. And that's precisely what happened. Yes, League now is very non toxic compared to how it was when I played it close to launch, I'll admit that- but it's also like playing with bots because it is dead. This is a legit concern for a lot of players. When you have all your talk events being about controlling player behaviour, no matter how 'good intentions' it is, there is good cause for concern.

That doesn't even get into what the threshold is to begin with- ten years ago celebrating holidays was always a joyous thing, but the same people who are pushing this now are the ones who have decided it's racist to celebrate this holiday, or dress in these ways for that one, or that it's cultural appropriation if you do anything that might be similar to what is viewed as traditionally someone else's. That's an example of something that was originally a very good cause, and an extremely similar cause- ending racism- turning into a disgusting monster that creates substantial barriers where groups no longer even want anything to do with each other for fear of getting in trouble.

Sovjet

I think this kinda thing doesn't work, it's just another badge on a website. Just like a online web shop I have this badge I'am more trustworthy. Sure mate

Well maybe it works but we will see in the near future!

Doctordarkspawn

platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

We envision a world where games are free of harassment, discrimination, and abuse, and where players can express themselves through play.

Oh god please no. More safe spaces for snowflakes? Its bad enough that people can cheat their butts off in PvP but only get banned if they say a naughty word.

The biggest problems in this game aren't player toxicity, it server performance, game balance and stopping cheating and exploits. Form an industry alliance to stop that instead.

honestly it's absolutely wild that you read the phrase "a world where games are free of harassment, discrimination, and abuse..." and decided it was a bad thing.

[edited quote]

The sentiment isn't bad.

The problem is this will inevitibly be perverted to push a agenda political or otherwise. It never stays that was, and it's nieve to think it does. Somewhere, along the line, it will be abused. Which is why giving this much power over speech to a cohaltion of corporations is a bad, bad idea.

BelleSorciere wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BelleSorciere wrote: »

KyleTheYounger wrote: »

I hope my experience in playing this game NEVER devolves to this level of player abuse. Because this is what FP Alliance has the potential to ultimately do. Use socially subjective censorship to ruin a player's ability to competitively play the game the way it was designed. Permit the destructive practice of slandering/labeling players as "bullies" by other players who may be lacking in emotional and/or chronological maturity to play a competitive, team oriented MMO.

Wow, this is a huge straw man. You're not even in the field anymore.

Yeah, I'm sure false reporting has never happened before.. Why don't you find the field yourself?

I didn't say false reporting never occurred. It's the idea that ZOS would blindly ban people just because they were reported that's the straw man.

It honestly depends on the specific incident.

Their more likely to do it on the back of a big exploit like, say, what happened in the imperial city during the launch of Dragonbones.

It all really depends on who reads the report.

DHale

Sounds like a snowflake convention, toughen up. It’s a video game.i agree with previous poster the bots need to get gone.

Sugaroverdose

platonicidealgirlfriend wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

But hey it will be the right kind of people being harrassed and shut down for having the wrong kind of thoughts, so I guess that is ok then...

why yes, racists and homophobes should be shut down! glad we agree!!

Didn't remember that people scream into main chat about they're sexual orientation or changed sex, if you see such people - they asks for attention and it's only they're fault that they get negative attention for doing such.

No-one interested whether you hetero/***/bi-sexual or whatever - keep it with yourself.

Sixsixsix161

I was on WoW's largest NA server (Stormrage, located in Chicago), and general chat/trade on that server can only be described as an absolute cesspool.

Blizzard should start by hiring some extra people to monitor chat channels. There was absolutely nothing that was not discussed/talked about, no subject was off-limits.

Funny thing, I made a funny joke about a character and got a 24-hour bann, while players talking about having sex with their mother and sisters got nothing.

obscure7

I like Rick & Morty.