Hard Mode in all vet trials should not be permanent once activated.

joshcrum

This thread is intended to point out that there is a lot of discrepancy between the trials in how Hard Mode is dealt with, specifically in regards to whether or not it is permanent once activated or if it can be toggled off. This thread is also intended to point out a very toxic method some players are utilizing to exploit this, and that is the point I will start with...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/280462306398437376/426398793756311552/TOXIC.jpg

This is a player threatening to activate Hard Mode in vAA unless they are paid 20k gold from the other 11 group members. I reluctantly decided to hide the player's name because of suggestions to do so here in the forum, although this person simply does not deserve that particular courtesy. I have seen this happen many times during the years I have played ESO, and it is extremely toxic and destructive to the community. Such a thing should not be allowed to happen, and it is possible only because the Craglorn trials have no way of deactivating Hard Mode on the current run.

I have been told that all newer trials have a method of toggling Hard Mode on or off, but I am not sure about that since I have no actual experience with it. However it would make perfect sense to change the Hard Mode activation of trials to be exactly like dungeons. Have a scroll or some other interactive object in the boss room which must be activated to initiate Hard Mode on every attempt. Or simply have the same interactive object in the boss room, but it can be activated to toggle Hard Mode on or off. Regardless of which style is chosen, all standard trials (Asylum Sanctorium not included) should utilize the same method to create a standard for Hard Mode activation.

Turelus

Agreed there should be a reset.

However solution there is to kick that person, black list then and sadly suck it up if you have to do AA again.

Edit.
You might also want to remove the name (just blank it out in Paint) from that image as showing player names in such a way is against forum rules and will just get the image removed.

anitajoneb17_ESO

OMG... what sort of people are you actually running trials with ? I had never seen such a thing, nor had I ever thought of the possibility to blackmail people like this.

These people should be reported to ZOS and banned. So toxic...

Marabornwingrion

Turelus wrote: »

Agreed there should be a reset.

However solution there is to kick that person, black list then and sadly suck it up if you have to do AA again.

Better solution is to NOT pug vet trials with strangers...

joshcrum

Turelus wrote: »

Agreed there should be a reset.

However solution there is to kick that person, black list then and sadly suck it up if you have to do AA again.

Edit.
You might also want to remove the name (just blank it out in Paint) from that image as showing player names in such a way is against forum rules and will just get the image removed.

I agree. That is exactly what my group would do. But it's easier for us to do that since it takes less than 30 minutes to get to that point. Some groups put in an hour or two to hit the final boss, so a reset is tragic. As for his name, I'll let it slide for now. He probably got banned so they might not remove the image.

Adoman

I saw this in one of my Discord channels. This person is part of a high end game trials guild. If I were the GL, I'd kick.

joshcrum

Astrid_V wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Agreed there should be a reset.

However solution there is to kick that person, black list then and sadly suck it up if you have to do AA again.

Better solution is to NOT pug vet trials with strangers...

In a guild of 500 people, how many of those "guildies" are strangers? The answer is 75-90% depending on the guild. This could happen to any group filling one or two group spots. All of us only have a relatively small group of people we actually know well in game, and I have personally experienced some of them go drama queen and turn their back on everyone else.

Adoman

You should remove the name from the screenshot, however. The naming and shaming cops will give you an infraction.

Dont_do_drugs

not for the reason u are posting, (which is kind of silly, just kick him from group, he shouldnt be able to activate then, or?) but what i recognized is, that a lot of guilds dont try hardmodes in the old craglorn trials, because they are scared or think the evening is ruined if they dont manage the hardmode then. this then makes them reconsider wether they try hardmode or not there and then people vote against liken "okay elts do normal mode, because we have it done then at elast".

i actually dislike this, because at some point u arent interested in running the normal mode a thousand times, when u at least can TRY the harmode together. so well, it should be changed in the old craglorn trials so people are more motivated again to at least try it.

Turelus

Astrid_V wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Agreed there should be a reset.

However solution there is to kick that person, black list then and sadly suck it up if you have to do AA again.

Better solution is to NOT pug vet trials with strangers...

I disagree. 11 people in that group were fine, just one was a bad seed.

The take away should be some people are jerks and should be avoided, not some people are jerks and avoid everyone.

joshcrum

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

not for the reason u are posting, (which is kind of silly, just kick him from group, he shouldnt be able to activate then, or?) but what i recognized is, that a lot of guilds dont try hardmodes in the old craglorn trials, because they are scared or think the evening is ruined if they dont manage the hardmode then. this then makes them reconsider wether they try hardmode or not there and then people vote against liken "okay elts do normal mode, because we have it done then at elast".

i actually dislike this, because at some point u arent interested in running the normal mode a thousand times, when u at least can TRY the harmode together. so well, it should be changed in the old craglorn trials so people are more motivated again to at least try it.

I totally agree. I was actually about to throw this concept out in the original post, but I didn't want to make it too long. But yeah, people should be able to do some Hard Mode progression and then call it and just clear it normally instead of being forced to accept utter defeat.

idk

The issue the OP brings up is a personal issue with a player and the developers should not chsmge how things work due to such issues.

lol he resolve is kick the player and ban them from the guild or running with you again. Run the trial a second time if needed.

Edit: thinking about it. It would be good to have this consistent through all the trials. Though not running with someone who is a jerk is still the best choice.

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER

I hope this guy will get kicked out of every guild and can never join a trial

adeptusminor

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

not for the reason u are posting, (which is kind of silly, just kick him from group, he shouldnt be able to activate then, or?) but what i recognized is, that a lot of guilds dont try hardmodes in the old craglorn trials, because they are scared or think the evening is ruined if they dont manage the hardmode then. this then makes them reconsider wether they try hardmode or not there and then people vote against liken "okay elts do normal mode, because we have it done then at elast".

i actually dislike this, because at some point u arent interested in running the normal mode a thousand times, when u at least can TRY the harmode together. so well, it should be changed in the old craglorn trials so people are more motivated again to at least try it.

Like mentioned in the picture, even when kicked from the group, a person has enough time to force hardmode for AA by breaking all 3 orbs before they get removed from the instance.

Qbiken

Of all saltiness and toxicity I´ve seen in this game (mostly from PvP players who think a little to high of themselves and takes this game way to serious), this takes the price. And I don´t see why ZOS can´t redesign the old Craglorn trials to have an on/off button for hardmode.

* In vMoL you can use the prayer shrines to turn it on/off
* In vHoF it´s just to pull a lever
* In Asylum Sanctorium you can just go upstairs and kill each boss one by one, so not a real "On/off" button but still.

Since the Craglorn trials has a theme where the constellations are involved I would suggest the following:

Instead of destroying the orbs (vAA), the Banners (vSO) or the statues (vHRC) there´s now one or a few pressure plates with the corresponding constellation that will empower the last boss with "cosmic energy" or something once activated.

adeptusminor

Apparently the guy from the picture has changed his @name, which because of forum policy I can't share here

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

just kick him from group, he shouldnt be able to activate then, or?

If you kick someone there's a delay between the kick and the actual removal from the dungeon. More than enough to do the few things that trigger HM.

anitajoneb17_ESO

idk wrote: »

Run the trial a second time if needed.

That's unrealistic. People have lives, jobs, families and commitments outside the game. For most guild groups, reaching the final boss of ANY vet trial already takes an hour.
People signing up for raids commit to stay for the approximate duration of ONE run. Not TWO.

joshcrum

idk wrote: »

The issue the OP brings up is a personal issue with a player and the developers should not chsmge how things work due to such issues.

lol he resolve is kick the player and ban them from the guild or running with you again. Run the trial a second time if needed.

Actually this was not a personal issue. The screenshot I posted was from another guildie who had posted this in our discord. They were reposting it from another guildie in a different guild. Neither I nor my guildie who posted this was actually in the group. The simple fact of the matter is, this happens and it should not be allowed to happen. A simple game change would remove the possibility of something like this ever happening again while also making trial progression runs more enjoyable for everyone.

joshcrum

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

just kick him from group, he shouldnt be able to activate then, or?

If you kick someone there's a delay between the kick and the actual removal from the dungeon. More than enough to do the few things that trigger HM.

And yes, you are quite correct. The player would have more than enough time to activate Hard Mode before being auto-removed from the instance.

WrathOfInnos

So did they pay? Did he activate HM? Was the threat serious?

joshcrum

The threat was serious, but I don't know if they paid. I certainly hope they didn't.

joshcrum

But that was just one occurrence. Like I said, I have seen/heard of this happening many times over the years. The idea is to not focus on the one occurrence, but to focus on the fact that this is even possible. A very simple change to the trials in terms of coding would completely eliminate the possibility of this ever happening while also making trial progression much more enjoyable.

anitajoneb17_ESO

joshcrum wrote: »

Actually this was not a personal issue. The screenshot I posted was from another guildie who had posted this in our discord. They were reposting it from another guildie in a different guild. Neither I nor my guildie who posted this was actually in the group.

OK... so it's a screenshot from a friend of a cousin of a guildie of the brother of my uncle-in-law.
Then... how can you say :

joshcrum wrote: »

I have seen this happen many times during the years I have played ESO, and it is extremely toxic and destructive to the community.

As toxic as it may be, it's not a very common incident, then ?

Not saying that your claim is unjustified, but be careful when you post such things and imply that this is standard scumbag behaviour in the community, because it isn't, and you put the entire playerbase in a bad light when you do so.

idk

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Run the trial a second time if needed.

That's unrealistic. People have lives, jobs, families and commitments outside the game. For most guild groups, reaching the final boss of ANY vet trial already takes an hour.
People signing up for raids commit to stay for the approximate duration of ONE run. Not TWO.

It’s very realist as things happen. Zos fixes this issue then you have someone go afk and hold the group up or finds another way to hold the group hostage. Things happen.

It’s sas to see jerks to persist however your example isn’t the case here as it seems it was a pug group, not a guild group that would have a signup.

Edit: pug groups would alsof increase the chance of something going wrong.

joshcrum

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

joshcrum wrote: »

Actually this was not a personal issue. The screenshot I posted was from another guildie who had posted this in our discord. They were reposting it from another guildie in a different guild. Neither I nor my guildie who posted this was actually in the group.

OK... so it's a screenshot from a friend of a cousin of a guildie of the brother of my uncle-in-law.
Then... how can you say :

joshcrum wrote: »

I have seen this happen many times during the years I have played ESO, and it is extremely toxic and destructive to the community.

As toxic as it may be, it's not a very common incident, then ?

Not saying that your claim is unjustified, but be careful when you post such things and imply that this is standard scumbag behaviour in the community, because it isn't, and you put the entire playerbase in a bad light when you do so.

It's a screenshot. It happened. This is not just some rumor. As to how common it is, who cares? It is possible so maybe it will become more and more common as people catch on. I certainly did nothing to imply that this was common behaviour in the community. Saying that I have seen it happen many times over the years that I have played the game doesn't come close to saying that it is common behaviour. All of this is beside the point of my original post though. I am simply pointing out the fact that such a thing exists. It is something that can be exploited, and it is exploited. It is also something that should be fixed for more reasons than just that it can be exploited by unscrupulous players.

anitajoneb17_ESO

joshcrum wrote: »

Saying that I have seen it happen many times over the years that I have played the game doesn't come close to saying that it is common behaviour.

Well, english is not my native language but in my understanding of it, saying "I have seen it happen many times" equals to "it happens often" which in turn equals to "it is common behaviour".

That being said, I still agree with your demand that HM should be a toggle in Craglorn trials.

Dont_do_drugs

actually i never saw that happening....before

joshcrum

I have seen mentions of signups for raid groups here. That is very common, and my guild does that for the core progression runs. However even with a signup, there is no guarantee that you will fill all twelve spots. In that case you need to pug one or more. It happens. And for an "open house" vet trial run like my guild does which has no signup, we take the first twelve to "x" up. We will take anyone who shows an interest in vet trials. The possibility of some unknown person pulling a stunt like this is seriously not cool. My guild does these open house runs to bring new people in to vet trial runs. It's designed to give them a feel for it and get over personal feelings of fear or inadequacy. The last thing we want is the possibility of something like this happening. My whole point was that this shouldn't be possible in the first place.

joshcrum

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

joshcrum wrote: »

Saying that I have seen it happen many times over the years that I have played the game doesn't come close to saying that it is common behaviour.

Well, english is not my native language but in my understanding of it, saying "I have seen it happen many times" equals to "it happens often" which in turn equals to "it is common behaviour".

That being said, I still agree with your demand that HM should be a toggle in Craglorn trials.

You left out the part of "over the years". Even if we're talking about 5 times in 3 years, which we are to be honest, that is just my experience. One player out of hundreds of thousands.

Qbiken wrote: »

Of all saltiness and toxicity I´ve seen in this game (mostly from PvP players who think a little to high of themselves and takes this game way to serious), this takes the price. And I don´t see why ZOS can´t redesign the old Craglorn trials to have an on/off button for hardmode.

* In vMoL you can use the prayer shrines to turn it on/off
* In vHoF it´s just to pull a lever
* In Asylum Sanctorium you can just go upstairs and kill each boss one by one, so not a real "On/off" button but still.

Since the Craglorn trials has a theme where the constellations are involved I would suggest the following:

Instead of destroying the orbs (vAA), the Banners (vSO) or the statues (vHRC) there´s now one or a few pressure plates with the corresponding constellation that will empower the last boss with "cosmic energy" or something once activated.

I totally missed this reply earlier. That is an awesome idea! It makes total sense considering the whole constellation thing, and they already have the constellation pressure plates in the game. Brilliant thinking, man!

joshcrum

Also here is an anonymous quote from Reddit which shows that this happens to other people as well, and that it can also happen (quite easily) by a player who is new to vet trials and doesn't know any better...

"I have done AA four times. Twice now we have gotten all the way to the last boss and some noob or troll broke the orbs and put us into hard mode which we were totally unqualified for. Over an hour of getting the group assembled and running the trial, wasted. 11 people can want to do normal mode and it just takes one person to *** everyone over. ZOS please only let the group lead enable hard mode! Or even better let it reset each time like veteran dungeon bosses."