Do you believe the Invigorating Trait should be Revisited by ZoS Developers?

Metafae

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The problem is valuing recovery versus other stats. Yes, 7 divines with atronach or serpent will 125 (your numbers are a little off) recovery, but most people using divines gear are not focusing on recovery or using the atronach stone with it - they're using a damage mundus and getting far more benefit out of it.

Actually, I'm not surprised my numbers are slightly off. I probably worked it out without taking into account how CP affects recovery too.

Mettaricana

Just remove the trait and drop it back to 8 trait sets instead of rem doing it and never making it worth it better yet roll its effect together with well fitted

oMrRust

I had an idea they could change the trait to increase light attack & heavy attack damage.

or they could go back to the Weighted trait and heavy & light attacks are faster !

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Metafae wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Numbers need an absolute massive improvement if they're going to compete with other traits.

I cant believe they seriously thought 9-10 recovery was going to work on any build. Even if you go full invigorating on all 7 armor pieces, you're getting 70 recovery. That's it. Pathetic.

If I'm going to dump all of my divines/infused traits for invigorating, then the amount gained needs to be substantial. If it were 50-100 recovery per piece then we'd be talking.

7 divines will only add 133 recovery with a recovery mundus.
7 invigorating will at 77 to all three stats. (231 in total)

If it did 50 each stat per piece would be way too op.

It is really good to see someone else fighting for reason.

Everything I have to say on this subject is in this thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/366359/invigorating-trait-good-news/p1

The long and the short of it is that I would rather run invigorating then training or prosperous. It actually gives me something useful in combat. Outside of combat, triats should not matter.

bottleofsyrup

I think ZOS made it garbage on purpose. People complained that its predecessor, Prosperous, had no value for combat so they decided to make it a combat-related trait while still being garbage and diluting the loot pool.

Avran_Sylt

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Why was it changed from Prosperous to Invigorating? At least with prosperous, new players could earn some much needed gold while questing. Training+Prosperous sounds like a great combo to run through zones with. Was it because it only increased found gold? Maybe it should've been changed to increase all gold received from all sources.

@SilverIce58

The issue was that you actually made more gold by using the Impenetrable Trait, than by using the Prosperous trait. Reason being that Traits require armor pieces to be repaired (Gold Sink). The Impenetrable Trait (with its 50% degradation reduction) cut repair costs in half, which was enough to actually allow you to make more money from killing mobs with Impen than with the prosperous trait.

Lynx7386

The linked thread basically had the guy suggesting that invigorating would give a different resource based on what type of armor it was put on. Instead of 11 to all 3, a medium armor piece would get 33 stamina recovery, a light armor piece would get 33 magicka recovery, and a heavy armor piece would get 33 health recovery.

now, I mostly like that idea as a change to the trait, except for the heavy armor part. I'll admit I'm not big on pvp so I dont really care much what people use heavy armor for there, but for me heavy is meant for tanking. Tanking does not benefit from health recovery at all (nor does any other build in this game, really). Health recovery is a terrible stat and even if you 100% build for health recovery to the exclusion of all other stats, you wont even match up to a single basic heal in terms of gain over time.

It would be much more beneficial for tanks to have heavy armor split the difference between magicka and stamina. That might make it useful.

So, change invigorating to this:

Light armor: + 15/21/27/33 magicka recovery with invigorating trait
Medium armor: + 15/21/27/33 stamina recovery with invigorating trait
Heavy armor & shields: + 8/11/14/17 stamina and magicka recovery with invigorating trait

An all gold medium or light armor invigorating set (7 pieces) would get 231 additional stamina or magicka recovery. An all gold heavy armor invigorating set would get 119 stamina and magicka recovery. Add in a shield and that goes to 136 stamina and magicka recovery for a full heavy tank. More likely you'll have one light and one medium piece on a tank, plus the shield, which would be 85/85 from 5pc heavy, 17/17 from the shield, 33 magicka from the light armor, and 33 stamina from the heavy armor, for a total of 135 stamina and magicka recovery on an all invigorating tank setup.

Still though, not sure it'd be worth using over divines/infused/sturdy. Especially over infused for a pve tank.

frausty

This is probably the most constructive thread I have read in months.

At the moment I have zero use for anything with Invigorating - which is great as 50% of the drops from Pledges seem to be in this trait for me. As a magblade it's very difficult anyway to move away from Divines, (in the most part). A buff to Invigorating could offer some opportunities to use a few different pieces.

dodgehopper_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The linked thread basically had the guy suggesting that invigorating would give a different resource based on what type of armor it was put on. Instead of 11 to all 3, a medium armor piece would get 33 stamina recovery, a light armor piece would get 33 magicka recovery, and a heavy armor piece would get 33 health recovery.

now, I mostly like that idea as a change to the trait, except for the heavy armor part. I'll admit I'm not big on pvp so I dont really care much what people use heavy armor for there, but for me heavy is meant for tanking. Tanking does not benefit from health recovery at all (nor does any other build in this game, really). Health recovery is a terrible stat and even if you 100% build for health recovery to the exclusion of all other stats, you wont even match up to a single basic heal in terms of gain over time.

It would be much more beneficial for tanks to have heavy armor split the difference between magicka and stamina. That might make it useful.

So, change invigorating to this:

Light armor: + 15/21/27/33 magicka recovery with invigorating trait
Medium armor: + 15/21/27/33 stamina recovery with invigorating trait
Heavy armor & shields: + 8/11/14/17 stamina and magicka recovery with invigorating trait

An all gold medium or light armor invigorating set (7 pieces) would get 231 additional stamina or magicka recovery. An all gold heavy armor invigorating set would get 119 stamina and magicka recovery. Add in a shield and that goes to 136 stamina and magicka recovery for a full heavy tank. More likely you'll have one light and one medium piece on a tank, plus the shield, which would be 85/85 from 5pc heavy, 17/17 from the shield, 33 magicka from the light armor, and 33 stamina from the heavy armor, for a total of 135 stamina and magicka recovery on an all invigorating tank setup.

Still though, not sure it'd be worth using over divines/infused/sturdy. Especially over infused for a pve tank.

This speaks volumes for how horrible health regeneration is in this game and in part why I have a problem with Vampires.

Nemesis7884

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Could just make it increase the % resource return on Heavy Attacks.

yeah, why not options are

a) resource on heavy attack
b) just increase the numbers
c) instead of increasing all your resource recovery just for example increases your highest resource pools recovery by a larger number or a %...for example increases your highest resource pools recovery by 3% for legendary and then go .5% down per quality level

radiostar

Increase the regen for the one lowest stat of the char. Plus give it a slight boost.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

radiostar wrote: »

Increase the regen for the one lowest stat of the char. Plus give it a slight boost.

Show your work on why.

Slick_007

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thats not called imagination, thats called gimping yourself on purpose.

where i use it, its the best trait. im sorry you cant think outside the box.

Avran_Sylt

Slick_007 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thats not called imagination, thats called gimping yourself on purpose.

where i use it, its the best trait. im sorry you cant think outside the box.

@Slick_007

I do find it a bit uninspiring though, that it only offers base regen. While it may be a few percent better than a Divines Mundus Stone on certain parts of armor, it's not like it makes its own play-style path the way that Sturdy/Impen/Well-fitted/Training do if fully kitted out. It's merely a minor addition to a min-max build. Nothing too significant to differentiate itself from the other traits.

Vapirko

I wonder if it would have been more useful had zos not made PvE dps rely on heavy attacking anyway. I could see it being useful in a version of ESO where it helps support sustained fast paced dps. Possibly. I could see TBS set working well around in such a situation.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

I think the old one was better...at least more gold while grinding...

Conduit0

I doubt they'll change it again since I'm pretty sure the devs held a contest to come up with the most useless trait possible and invigorating was the winner.

SilverIce58

Conduit0 wrote: »

I doubt they'll change it again since I'm pretty sure the devs held a contest to come up with the most useless trait possible and invigorating was the winner.

By the 8, can you imagine what the other possible contenders were?

WrathOfInnos

It should probably just be increased to 15 recovery. So 7 gold pieces results in 105 tri-recovery (slightly less than the 124 single resource recovery from Atro + 7 divines). It might see some use on Hybrid, Tank, or PVP builds then.

In general I think armor traits should be more impactful (like weapon traits are). Most DPS use 7 divines with Warrior or Apprentice and the total 124 weapon/spell damage affects DPS by less than 3%. This could easily be doubled so that a single perfect-trait gear piece is roughly 1% higher DPS than a piece with no trait at all.

Something along the lines of:
Divines: 20% mundus increase
Infused: 50% enchant increase
Invig: 40 tri-recovery
Sturdy: 5-6% maybe? (counteract recent indirect nerf)
Reinforced: 40% increase to armor piece
Nirn: 900-1000 resistance
Training and Well-Fitted: Can't even guess at the numbers here, would have to be buffed some to stay competitive

I think this would help with build diversity too, since 7 of the same thing would not be needed to see an impact. And also swapping in one of a trait would be noticeable.

Mazbt

buff the trait a little...make it so that 7 pieces of this trait will give you about 200 extra regen...maybe even star at 150.

Anotherone773

Just make it increase the effectiveness of provisioning items by X% and then it wont be such an LOL/niche trait.

starkerealm

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Nirnhoned: Sometimes used on Tank shields instead of infused
Reinforced: See Nirnhoned

Honestly, there is absolutely zero reason to run Nirnhoned on armor right now. Unless my math is off, it will always return less of a bonus than reinforced will, unless there's some hidden mechanic with it that I'm unaware of.

starkerealm

Actually, stray thought, why not simply have it boost one recovery stat (based on @nijey's idea) and also boost the associated max stat. So, heavy armor gets health recovery, and health, light gets max magicka and magicka recovery, medium gets max stamina and stamina recovery, with shields either getting health + health recovery, or getting tristat buffs.

D0PAMINE

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

How does it fair with Willow's Path?

Willows was broken for a while but I did test it out. 11 regen for all 3 stats on gold piece isnt horrible, you need to compensate for damage loss but for screwing around its quite fun to have regen in fights. It would be sick in pvp if it were combined with Impen, like merging the two traits.

dodgehopper_ESO

starkerealm wrote: »

Actually, stray thought, why not simply have it boost one recovery stat (based on @nijey's idea) and also boost the associated max stat. So, heavy armor gets health recovery, and health, light gets max magicka and magicka recovery, medium gets max stamina and stamina recovery, with shields either getting health + health recovery, or getting tristat buffs.

I like this idea but they seriously need to make Health regeneration actually be a good stat. This is a big reason why I find a problem with Vampires in general. Vampires can easily mitigate the fire damage (I play a lot of them, please people don't bs me about how hard it is to be a Vampire). Vampire health regeneration loss is easily replaced by the health return you get from spamming things like Vigor, Forward Momentum, Spores, Dragon Blood, etc. This health regen loss is greatly made up for by giving the player 10% more magic and stamina regeneration which helps you whether you're a stamina build or a magicka build. Finally, if you have enough baseline health undeath becomes hugely beneficial. This is all without including the magicka escape, cc, and a nice mob based ulti-heal. In order to placate all of the dps-monkeys out there they have also buffed the hell out of Defile by nerfing health regeneration, an already dog stat. The problem was other abilities and not health regeneration. I recognize that Health regen could become out of control but I really think there are other problems in the game that are far worse. In short, if they were to do what you suggest @starkerealm I would really hope that they revisit and improve health regeneration, because otherwise I do believe heavy armor would be getting short changed.

starkerealm

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

(I play a lot of them, please people don't bs me about how hard it is to be a Vampire).

Why would I? I've got, like, eight.

Though, seriously, health regen probably is the least important stat in the game after Oblivion resistance. I'm not sure what an overhaul to it would look like, but the way healing works makes it completely irrelevant. The only thought that comes to mind is to scale healing received with health recovery, but that sounds like a horrific idea.

dodgehopper_ESO

starkerealm wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

(I play a lot of them, please people don't bs me about how hard it is to be a Vampire).

Why would I? I've got, like, eight.

Though, seriously, health regen probably is the least important stat in the game after Oblivion resistance. I'm not sure what an overhaul to it would look like, but the way healing works makes it completely irrelevant. The only thought that comes to mind is to scale healing received with health recovery, but that sounds like a horrific idea.

Oh, I wasn't singling you out, I was just pre-empting the hate messages that were going to instantly be received by people who can't enjoy Vampire and also see the flaws with it.

Acrolas

starkerealm wrote: »

Honestly, there is absolutely zero reason to run Nirnhoned on armor right now. Unless my math is off, it will always return less of a bonus than reinforced will, unless there's some hidden mechanic with it that I'm unaware of.

There are a few instances where Nirnhoned performs better on light and medium armors, but they're not significant instances.

Nirncrux is, basically, a nerve agent. While tying it stun and other crowd control effects would make it too powerful, it wouldn't be that bad as a trait that increases the duration of your damage over time abilities while reducing the duration of damage over time effects that target you.

That opens up the tool box a bit.

pod88kk

Yaaaaas queen!!!!!!
Buff that shizz

starkerealm

Acrolas wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Honestly, there is absolutely zero reason to run Nirnhoned on armor right now. Unless my math is off, it will always return less of a bonus than reinforced will, unless there's some hidden mechanic with it that I'm unaware of.

There are a few instances where Nirnhoned performs better on light and medium armors, but they're not significant instances.

Nirncrux is, basically, a nerve agent. While tying it stun and other crowd control effects would make it too powerful, it wouldn't be that bad as a trait that increases the duration of your damage over time abilities while reducing the duration of damage over time effects that target you.

That opens up the tool box a bit.

How about healing received?