Seriously ZOS?

DieAlteHexe

Dragath wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

TheCyberDruid wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Are you saying then that folks who buy "cosmetic things" aren't playing ESO? Because that's a somewhat peculiar assertion. What matters to you whether I play the game in a costume, store my stuff in a house or ride a fancy critter?

No, I'm not saying that you aren't playing the game, but rather that you happily spend as much (or more) as the game costs on things that are purely optional and don't think that's a bit odd. I get that MMO games work that way now (look at CS:GO skins), but it's just weird to see how much money people are happily willing to spend on those things.

Ah, thank you for clarifying.

Well, I think it's odd that people will spend 200 bucks on a pair of shoes or buy a car for 100k or, my favourite, sports season tickets (holy moly!). So there you have it. But, as I said before, I don't judge. So long as someone is paying their bills, meeting their responsibilities, it's all good.

@DieAlteHexe Ehhh, it’s different with things like cars and shoes. Sometimes they are bought for collection reasons, and or the legacy or craftsmanship behind them. It’s not so much about it being because so and so is talking about the brand trending.

Cars are a perfect example of this. A lot of companies like: Ferrari, Aston Martin, Maserati, Bugatti, McLaren etc. will often put out certain cars that are known as “flagship” models. These are usually incredibly rare premiums, that usually have some type of connection to the history of the manufacturer (e.g. Ferrari Enzo and Maserati MC12). And usually attached to said flagship models are a ton of reselling limits. This is to prevent repeated flipping or flipping all together of these special vehicles. Ferrari at 1 point had a bad reputation for telling buyers that they were prohibited from reselling their cars, unless Ferrari authorized the new buyer. Crazy, but that is how serious some of these companies are about their cars. Then of course there are companies like Pagani, in which every car that is released is pretty much a flagship model. Lol.

Okay...going out partying, drinking, movies, sports events. You took my point.

its really not different with cars at all. i know quite a few people that just buy them because its the "in" thing to have a Bugatti or a McLaren in your Garage. the more money you have, the less you have to actually care about the item you are buying.

Heh, never been that well off but it makes a kind of sense.

And now, I have to go catch fish so I can get this MA thing knocked on the head. This thread is perilously close to making me lose patience and can't be having that on such a fine day.

Jade1986

Wayshuba wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

I can appreciate threads like this, because they make me happy that none of you are in charge of this game's monetization.

Do you want a hard pill to swallow? Consider this: if you're feeling left out of a crown store item, you're right. The strategy ZOS chose to meet its target did not include you. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Despite some superficial similarities, you do not have a discount retail relationship with ZOS.

I was going to leave this at first, but I had to respond since my background and experience has been almost 30 years in marketing and product pricing.

If the strategy is too make people feel left out, they succeeded. If the strategy is to make as much money as possible, they are failing miserably - and they in no way, shape, or form have a broad enough data method to determine they are making the right decision.

In my 15 months playing this game, I have not seen once something testing whether their strategy is the right one or not. Market testing, especially of pricing, is a pretty common tactic for all companies to find the sweet spot of maximizing revenue against investment (in this case the fixed cost of producing the asset).

While they may sell a few of these things at grossly inflated prices during this limited windows, how do they know they are making the most money they can on them? They already have a sunk cost when they produce them, why are they limiting themselves to four days of trying to capture the revenue on these items?

When have they tried having a sale on houses to see if maybe they are losing a lot of sales due to the very high prices on current houses?

When have they tried to run a limited sale on these things a bit longer to test if maybe four days is too short a window?

Considering the majority of their player base has played other MMOs, what testing have they done to verify that they can charge 400% more for something pretty staple in other MMOs (outfit slots)? When I saw this price, I actually laughed to myself because I KNOW this is going to cost them more than it makes them. No brand has a strong enough pull (even Apple), to charge 5 times market rate - NONE.

Again, as someone who has done this for a long time, I have to agree with many opinions that these "limited" sales are far too frequent and far too expensive. More importantly, while ZoS may be making some change with these tactics, they have done NOTHING to test whether this is the right one or not. What if they did and found out they were only making 20% of what they could with a different approach? Would you still consider their method to be the best one?

There was another rather large retailer that used to do this on Black Friday weekend. They used to get stock on items that they only carried the Friday through Sunday of that weekend. Then, they decided to test longer periods of carrying that stock - first a week, then two, until they got up to five weeks. What they discovered was 1.) that three weeks was the optimal period for carrying the stock and 2.) that they only made 30% of the total revenue on these items Black Friday weekend. In other words, they made 70% more by extending it to three weeks.

This is just one example of ZoS not knowing if they are doing the right thing or not. They have NEVER tested different approaches so there is NO data to know if it is the right approach.

The only approach they have tested is sell for more, more, MORE, MOOOAARRR, MOOOOOAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LadyAstrum

Someone on reddit made a good point, they mentioned the fact that in the real world the wealthy have places they go to eat, shop and socialise, and neighbourhoods they live in, and the not-so-wealthy have theirs. People dwell where their socio-economic circumstances are, yes there are some crossovers, but not often.

Then we have mmorpg's that bring all levels of income together in one place. Here is where we start to see those differences clashing. In old mmo's this wasn't a problem, however, in the age of the cash shop the differences in income actually separates people's ability to access the "nicer" things. I don't think ZoS corporates consider that their salaries are not reflective of a lot of their playerbase. £100 pounds or dollars or euros is nothing to them. But could be a lot to one of their players.

Cash shop decisions like this are trending in the way I dreaded. Games veering towards being two-tier class systems, where those with deep pockets get to have a different game experience just because they spend real money, and the old idea of earning as you play diminishes.

Hokiewa

Wayshuba wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

I can appreciate threads like this, because they make me happy that none of you are in charge of this game's monetization.

Do you want a hard pill to swallow? Consider this: if you're feeling left out of a crown store item, you're right. The strategy ZOS chose to meet its target did not include you. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Despite some superficial similarities, you do not have a discount retail relationship with ZOS.

If the strategy is too make people feel left out, they succeeded. If the strategy is to make as much money as possible, they are failing miserably - and they in no way, shape, or form have a broad enough data method to determine they are making the right decision.

No, just no. They have the data to determine if the opportunity cost of alienating some is worth the profit they are making. You do not have access to any of this data but they most certainly do. If the price points remain, then the profit is worth the risk. It's another "fact" based entirely upon extremely flawed speculation and emotional personal opinion.

Acrolas

Wayshuba wrote: »

I was going to leave this at first, but I had to respond since my background and experience has been almost 30 years in marketing and product pricing.

did i not just say

Acrolas wrote: »

Despite some superficial similarities, you do not have a discount retail relationship with ZOS.

ZOS is not using a goods and tangibles model.
They are using a few variations of a services rendered model.
Goods are about getting a certain quantity of product out the door. Services are about getting a predictable and reliable number of people in.

Ch4mpTW

LadyAstrum wrote: »

Someone on reddit made a good point, they mentioned the fact that in the real world the wealthy have places they go to eat, shop and socialise, and neighbourhoods they live in, and the not-so-wealthy have theirs. People dwell where their socio-economic circumstances are, yes there are some crossovers, but not often.

Then we have mmorpg's that bring all levels of income together in one place. Here is where we start to see those differences clashing. In old mmo's this wasn't a problem, however, in the age of the cash shop the differences in income actually separates people's ability to access the "nicer" things. I don't think ZoS corporates consider that their salaries are not reflective of a lot of their playerbase. £100 pounds or dollars or euros is nothing to them. But could be a lot to one of their players.

Cash shop decisions like this are trending in the way I dreaded. Games veering towards being two-tier class systems, where those with deep pockets get to have a different game experience just because they spend real money, and the old idea of earning as you play diminishes.

@LadyAstrum You may be on to something here. Whenever I invite people to my homes, they’re always amazed by the entire experiences. They often describe how they feel as if they entered a new zone, and are about to be approached by a NPC baring a quest for them. Like an exclusive part of the game that was hidden away from them. This is similar to how people are when I have company over to my real life home. Something as simple as a quartz countertop, or Versace pillow is enough to make some people freak. Where as in-game, something like an arrangement of Redguard chandeliers and Imperial furniture can make people who appreciate that type of stuff obtain an entirely different vibe from what they’ve felt before in-game.

Now here is the thing. Is that exactly a bad thing? For example, whenever I set foot inside of my homes in ESO I get inspired to do something great. The same as whenever I set foot in my real life home. And in my opinion, that is how it is supposed to be. A home is supposed to be something that you not only rest at, but also somewhere that you are free to have your mind wander at. A home should invoke feelings of positivity, and command a sense of beauty. Thus creativity is bred and can acquired at will. A home shouldn’t be something dull, and or a place that stirs feelings of negativity or sadness.

LadyAstrum

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

LadyAstrum wrote: »

Someone on reddit made a good point, they mentioned the fact that in the real world the wealthy have places they go to eat, shop and socialise, and neighbourhoods they live in, and the not-so-wealthy have theirs. People dwell where their socio-economic circumstances are, yes there are some crossovers, but not often.

Then we have mmorpg's that bring all levels of income together in one place. Here is where we start to see those differences clashing. In old mmo's this wasn't a problem, however, in the age of the cash shop the differences in income actually separates people's ability to access the "nicer" things. I don't think ZoS corporates consider that their salaries are not reflective of a lot of their playerbase. £100 pounds or dollars or euros is nothing to them. But could be a lot to one of their players.

Cash shop decisions like this are trending in the way I dreaded. Games veering towards being two-tier class systems, where those with deep pockets get to have a different game experience just because they spend real money, and the old idea of earning as you play diminishes.

@LadyAstrum You may be on to something here. Whenever I invite people to my homes, they’re always amazed by the entire experiences. They often describe how they feel as if they entered a new zone, and are about to be approached by a NPC baring a quest for them. Like an exclusive part of the game that was hidden away from them. This is similar to how people are when I have company over to my real life home. Something as simple as a quartz countertop, or Versace pillow is enough to make some people freak. Where as in-game, something like an arrangement of Redguard chandeliers and Imperial furniture can make people who appreciate that type of stuff obtain an entirely different vibe from what they’ve felt before in-game.

Now here is the thing. Is that exactly a bad thing? For example, whenever I set foot inside of my homes in ESO I get inspired to do something great. The same as whenever I set foot in my real life home. And in my opinion, that is how it is supposed to be. A home is supposed to be something that you not only rest at, but also somewhere that you are free to have your mind wander at. A home should invoke feelings of positivity, and command a sense of beauty. Thus creativity is bred and can acquired at will. A home shouldn’t be something dull, and or a place that stirs feelings of negativity or sadness.

Those feelings are entirely good, and I agree that a home should invoke all kinds of great feelings. Some get that in real life, others can't or don't, but even if someone lives in a luxurious penthouse in real life, they could still thirst for a fantasy palace. Similarly, the poor person living in a drab and uninspiring place may dream of a palace to enjoy too. In my mind, it's reasonable that the latter person has the opportunity to do so by playing the game. The former could choose to simply buy it if the sum is insignificant to them. And obviously not everyone wants a mega-mansion in-game, but I'm concerned that for lower earners they are beginning to see the real-world wealth gap manifest in the very games that bought everyone together on an equal footing, at least in terms of having the opportunity to play the game to gain nice items.

It's not just ESO, other games are doing this. This two-tier system of those who can buy, versus those who can’t...how far will it go? How wealthy will someone need to be before the average working person can't even afford to play an mmo?

The thing is, these items are not even ours, even though we've purchased them. They're part of the game, but we're paying to rent them.

Nihility42

ZOS has years of crown store data that tells them this is the optimal price. People pay it, and enough people that they don't believe it would bring a greater profit to price it lower. If this is problematic for you, tell your fellow players not to buy it at this price point. Don't give ZOS *** for not being a charity.

duendology

IF the in game currency "crowns" did not exist and people had to pay with real money for a house, mount, or else.. instead first buying crowns and then crown store goodies, I'd be curious whether players would be that quick to spend 100 dollars or more, or Euro or Pound, for an in-game house. A house (or anything for that matter) that, ultimately, does not belong to you but still belongs to ZOS (on their servers). When you decide to stop playing, you cannot return these things and get money back.
I'd argue you get all these things leased to you, you don't own them.

The argument about "exclusivity" of these items does not convince me or impresses me. If I see enough of players riding the same horse and wearing the same polymorph and the same pet.. I get "meh". One of the reasons I stopped wearing the only one I got. And the reason I did not get horse or pet with the Dragonbones boundle. I see too many clones in ESO. No, thank You.

Same with houses. If one more person, or one hundred, or one thousand people, own Linchal Great Manor.. I don't see anything special about it anymore. Someone owns an item identical as you do. The only exclusive thing about it is its price..If it is your thing? Get 10 of them. Whatever.

So these marketing tactic does not work on me "get it, it's time limited, and then it's gone FOREVAR". These so called exclusive items do not enchant me..so I'd argue with this "magical" statement that this or that house, so painfully luxurious, make this or that player stepping in a different world. We're in Tamriel, for gods' sake.. everything about it... is otherworldly!!! LOL

These items whether crown crates or houses are ridiculously priced. And I can only laugh. Many people already pointed it out. It's insane that a house or a mount costs more than a base game or dlc!!!

At the same time, I am last to judge people who have enough of spare money to spend on these things. By all means, do, I don't care. Your skills as a player may impress me, your decrational skills and creativity too for that matter. But the number of houses or rare mounts your own? Never. "how much you've got" does not impress me in real life.. and does not impress me and means nothing to me in ESO.
So, buy as many houses, mounts, costumes, crown crates as you like... but please, stop applying some weird quasi-philosophical ideology to it.

heaven13

Crowns exist as a means to disguise the real world cost. Not all people are going to constantly do a real cost analysis of pricing. 5000 crowns sounds a lot cheaper than $50.

Wayshuba

Hokiewa wrote: »

Wayshuba wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

I can appreciate threads like this, because they make me happy that none of you are in charge of this game's monetization.

Do you want a hard pill to swallow? Consider this: if you're feeling left out of a crown store item, you're right. The strategy ZOS chose to meet its target did not include you. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Despite some superficial similarities, you do not have a discount retail relationship with ZOS.

If the strategy is too make people feel left out, they succeeded. If the strategy is to make as much money as possible, they are failing miserably - and they in no way, shape, or form have a broad enough data method to determine they are making the right decision.

No, just no. They have the data to determine if the opportunity cost of alienating some is worth the profit they are making. You do not have access to any of this data but they most certainly do. If the price points remain, then the profit is worth the risk. It's another "fact" based entirely upon extremely flawed speculation and emotional personal opinion.

I don't mean to sound offensive, but you are very far off the mark. They in fact DO NOT have this data. They have NEVER done any market variance testing to qualify that this data is correct. No two ways around it, everyone playing the game would know if this testing had been done - but they haven't done any.

Let me give you an example.

The one making the decisions comes in after a weekend of selling an $80 digital house and says, look boss, we sold $25,000 in this house over the four days and it only cost use $1000 to make.

To which, I ask the following:

1.) Is that all we could make on this house? What test did you run to determine that 4 days was optimal? Have we tried running it for 7 days? or 10 days?

2.) Do we know the price point is optimal during that time? Have we tried a sale a half price to see if we sell more than double the units?

Since they haven't done ANY of that testing, I can say with complete confidence that they haven't the FOGGIEST CLUE of knowing what lost opportunity cost is - there are no comparative data sets to know what those opportunity costs are. There are no magic secret numbers to this. Testing for this stuff is done in the public, not is some closed office on spreadsheets.

And my information in not based on speculation or emotional opinion - it is based on almost thirty years of doing this stuff. Companies pay me good money to do this exact thing for them. Based on that, I know FOR A FACT, they do not have the data sets they needs to reach the conclusion you think they magically have.

Wayshuba

Acrolas wrote: »

Wayshuba wrote: »

I was going to leave this at first, but I had to respond since my background and experience has been almost 30 years in marketing and product pricing.

did i not just say

Acrolas wrote: »

Despite some superficial similarities, you do not have a discount retail relationship with ZOS.

ZOS is not using a goods and tangibles model.
They are using a few variations of a services rendered model.
Goods are about getting a certain quantity of product out the door. Services are about getting a predictable and reliable number of people in.

Sorry my wording was misconstrued. I did not mean it as a disagreement with you, but more support of you point adding in my years of experience. What I meant by my opening comment was I was not even going to comment on this whole thread but your point made we want to add to it.

Wayshuba

Nihility42 wrote: »

ZOS has years of crown store data that tells them this is the optimal price. People pay it, and enough people that they don't believe it would bring a greater profit to price it lower. If this is problematic for you, tell your fellow players not to buy it at this price point. Don't give ZOS *** for not being a charity.

No they don't.

They have never, not once, tested if they have things at optimal pricing. They may sell a few, yes, but they haven't done any market testing to see if they are, in fact, at optimal price or even if four day limited releases are optimal time frames.

Let me give you one small example. They put Outfit Slots on PTS at 350 Crowns - pretty much close to going rate ACCOUNT WIDE in other MMOs (well slightly more but tolerable), then release on live at 1500 Crowns FOR ONE SLOT. Please point to where they did ANY testing that gave them confidence setting a price at 1800% more than normal rate (it's not like outfit slots are unique to ESO). You see, if they had put them on PTS at 1500 Crowns, they would have tested the reaction to that price feedback, but they didn't so it is obvious they had no data whatsoever when they set the price point.

Truth is, they are just picking a number out of the air and selling what they can of them. There is no data or otherwise to show they have selected the optimal point at all. NONE.

LadyNalcarya

Hokiewa wrote: »

Wayshuba wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

I can appreciate threads like this, because they make me happy that none of you are in charge of this game's monetization.

Do you want a hard pill to swallow? Consider this: if you're feeling left out of a crown store item, you're right. The strategy ZOS chose to meet its target did not include you. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Despite some superficial similarities, you do not have a discount retail relationship with ZOS.

If the strategy is too make people feel left out, they succeeded. If the strategy is to make as much money as possible, they are failing miserably - and they in no way, shape, or form have a broad enough data method to determine they are making the right decision.

No, just no. They have the data to determine if the opportunity cost of alienating some is worth the profit they are making. You do not have access to any of this data but they most certainly do. If the price points remain, then the profit is worth the risk. It's another "fact" based entirely upon extremely flawed speculation and emotional personal opinion.

Do they?
I mean, we're talking about people who tried to sell cheap celestial motif for... What was it, 5k crowns? Or those basic blue motifs for 500 crowns each. Some of furniture prices in housing menu are also quite weird and do not correlate with their ingame value.
We also know that ZOS can be very incompetent when it comes to technical stuff. So I wouldnt be surprised if they just price CS items on a whim, trying to see how far they can push their whales.

MacCait

Nihility42 wrote: »

ZOS has years of crown store data that tells them this is the optimal price. People pay it, and enough people that they don't believe it would bring a greater profit to price it lower. If this is problematic for you, tell your fellow players not to buy it at this price point. Don't give ZOS *** for not being a charity.

Sorry but this is total BS and a huge assumption on your behalf. You have no facts to support your statements.

First of all, Homestead has only been around for one year, so it is impossible they would have years of data of pricing houses at 13000 crowns a pop and limiting sales to just 4 days. At best they would have a year of data... but they don't. As @Wayshuba has already explained in detail, to gather data you would need to sell the same products at different prices, and for different periods of time. They have not done that, therefore it is impossible for them to have gained any data on optimal selling prices and times for sale.

When you state "they don't believe it would bring a greater profit to price it lower'". How do you know this? You don't, you are just imagining that as part of your perception. As far as I know ZOS has never made a statement indicating anything of the sort.

As for charity... I have never heard a single person in game nor on the forums ever suggest ZOS should be a charity. Players know it's a business and most are totally fine with that. This is not the issue. The issue is the trend of greed, which we have all seen get worse over the last couple years.

Players are just asking for fairer prices. The profit margin is incredible already as it is digital content, not a product that requires any type of production, so deciding to sell the homes for a lower price, and for longer than a 4 day window is not asking much. It just allows it to be more feasible for more players.

I know a great many players in game (few players use forums) that refuse to pay such exorbitant prices, either because they disagree with the greed, or simply because they cannot afford to shed so much money and so frequently. These same players all say the same thing: if the prices were lower, they'd buy it.

I think it's obvious to most people that ZOS would sell more products if the prices were more reasonable

LadyAstrum

Nihility42 wrote: »

ZOS has years of crown store data that tells them this is the optimal price. People pay it, and enough people that they don't believe it would bring a greater profit to price it lower. If this is problematic for you, tell your fellow players not to buy it at this price point. Don't give ZOS *** for not being a charity.

I don't recall seeing anyone giving ZoS puppy doo for not being a charity. I wish ZoS much prosperity, but some of their pricing is greedy, and discouraging. Echoing others here, I don't think they've tested as much data as you're suggesting. How many times have they extended the limited-time period to see how much more they might sell?

Lazrael

I love this game and am a ESO Plus sub. Been playing casually since alpha. These days I really don't have time to play games much, but I make a little time during the week for ESO.

That said, I gotta be honest. Between the "limited time offers BUY NOW" and absurd prices of the crown store, and the crown crates that lock some of the coolest aesthetic content behind a gambling wall, I'm beginning to reconsider my involvement in ESO as a hobby.

I've bought a ton of content and invested a lot of time, but honestly these business practices are blatantly insulting.
I know the people behind the game itself really do care about it, but whoever is behind the in game purchase mechanism are truly bad actors, in my opinion.

Might pick up the Sithis statue before its gone, just because I love the lore around it, but I would have probably bought it and the furnishing and the house if it were reasonably priced and not on some absurd timer.

But as I said. I don't know that I can really support these guys anymore.

I'm sure this will go ignored as s many of these things do, but that seems to me to be further demonstrative of the wider issue with ZOS, Bethesda, and Zenimax's philosophy as a whole.


Feels bad man.