nice ideas. i dont like the idea of being locked into a playstyle because of a race- that s inherently- well - racist. i wanted to be a breton and wield a sword and shield like a knight- and be an orc with a mage staff- but doing so would only impair my potential as an end gamer. yes you can play what u want- but once u hit max cp as i have and take part in end game trials- every little bit helps. i think the ideas you propose are really worth zos considering.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »@WakeYourGhost Nobody wants the 9th era example. Your projecting.
As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.
Said it once, will say it again. It's just resistance to change, and given the few of you still arguing are parroting the same thing over and over, you dont have any ironclad proof races simply cannot change, cannot evolve, cannot deviate from the norm. Only sith deal in absolutes.
Projecting what? It was a random comment in a list of Random Things that came to my head first when I thought of "change"
Here are the points you ignored -
Your racial traits don't stop you from being a badass supermage or a sword-lord. They may not line up with it, but it doesn't prevent you from becoming these things.
The races are descendant from Gods and Mythical Beings who passed on their traits to these races - Some of these Same Gods still shape the lives of these races, and keep their souls infused with the nature they favor.
Evolution is a long process that comes over thousands on thousands of years, and still wouldn't be a significant factor here.
A Khajiit can no more change their racial Traits than they can change their fur.
If you were asking for different races with different traits, that is one thing - Like the hinted-at-but-never-talked-about-again variants of Khajiit that could be an alternate race.
There are types of Khajiit that look nearly like Man or Mer - And there are types of Khajiit who look more like Senches.
You want different stats, look no further than THE *** LORE. Find out what alternatives there actually are in said lore instead of just going with the idea that we should have a pick-your-own bonus system or alternatives for specific races because people want a Redguard that looks like an Altmer.
I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind.
You want more options, ask for more races - There are plenty to *** choose from in the Lore.
You want your Altmer to have Stamina passives because you've seen one use a sword - Go roll in puddles across Black Marsh until you catch the Knahaten Flu.
1. Most of the races are descendnats from gods and mythical beings. The notible exceptions to these are the Betmer who were not at all near the other two.
Going to skip the rest of that section as that is all un-confirmable fluff, and is irrelevent.
"A Khajiti can no more change their racial traits than they can change their fur". Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.
This quote, though, is all I needed to see.
"I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind."
Translation: "You didn't subscribe to my view, you want something I dont think you should have, I'm hear to beat you to a pulp."
Greedy, resistant to change, unfit to consult. Thanks for playing. The lore does not back you nearly as much as you would like to believe and you continue to cherry pick from it in a fashion that suggests to me you dont understand it in the slightest.
We'll have to agree to disagree. We are at an impasse.
I've referenced Lore-facts, I've stayed in line with previous games, and I've even given more in-depth citation.
You've just said "I want it!" over and over again.
It doesn't make a difference if you aren't able to see things from any point of view outside of your own.
Perhaps I'm being "inflexible", but it's only because any argument anyone makes is just rebuked with "you're no fun! I want my way now!".
Agree to disagree is fine. But dont lie about my position again. I've pointed out the various inconsistancies in your little facts and the fact the games have a unreliable narrator.
This is why your unfit to consult, you'll lie about anyone until you get what you want. Agree to disagree, fine. But stop with the lies.
I haven't seen any "inconsistencies" you've pointed out, and I havn't seen any "unreliable narrator" established.
Your position is a desire for statistical advantages outside of the normal and well-established racial system because you want your Waifu (Or Husbandu) to be a little stronger at your OTP of Race, Class, and Attributes.
I have nothing to gain here, so I won't "get what I want", and I have little to no motive to lie.
We know they won't change the Racial passives - It's been brought up a thousand times before.
My entire complain is pretending that these changes somehow fit with the Lore and Story in any meaningful fashion.
Don't twist me in to some manipulative dark villain trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses just so you can feel your argument has a stronger base through the glory of defiant opposition to a force of oppression.
Calling something a Lie doesn't actually make it a Lie.
Calling someone a Liar doesn't actually make them a Liar.
Except your acting manipulative.
1. I've never said 'let me have my way'.
2. I've never said 'your no fun'.
I've argued that races simply produce people who dont conform to the steriotype once and a while and you've simply not accepted that. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. Then you throw around aspersions about "Waifu" whatever the hell that is and I get very angry because it's clear your trying to put together a narrative. Your trying to make me out to be something I'm not and I'll call it what it is: Slander.
I've tried to argue the point as best I'm able but what I wont tollerate is misrepresenation and lies. What you want is for people to shut up and stop discussing an issue you think isn't a problem, and you'll use any means to do that.
Own up to the mistake, take the hit, and stop. Take responsibility for your actions.
Hyperbole - the things I put in "quotes" tend to be Hyperbole.
My argument to that has been that someone not conforming to that stereotype wouldn't have different passives - They would just overcome their racial predispositions and become something different.
Waifu - Perhaps that term is used more commonly in other communities to refer to a well constructed female (husbandu - Male) character. It's a comical term to lighten tension, not an insult.
All of that out of the way - I don't care if people talk about it or shut up. I want them to actually consider the people who aren't power-gamers who want to keep the integrity of the Lore, precedents, and story.
I also want people to stop calling their personal Build Support Passives "Lore Friendly" and stop trying to hammer that point home with meaningless drivel about how some Altmer use Swords.
Fact is - I could make (And have made) a Nord Mage that can do just as fine as an Altmer Mage. My DPS is a few points lower, my resistance if a few points higher. My sustain isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible, either.
I'm a freaking rollplayer playing an non optimal race for my build, I couldn't give a flying buggery about build optimization. I'm arguing it from a lore perspective and I've been doing so since I entered the thread. Agree to disagree, fine. But again with the misrepresentation and the -narrative- man. Is it compulsory? Can you not stop yourself?
...Okay, I've ignored the spelling thus far because I'm not bothered by spelling or grammar issues - Not everyone has english for a first language, some people type fast and don't double check, some people are on phones, some people just aren't great at it...
But this - Rollplayer... I'm imagining someone going in to a dungeon and rolling past every single enemy, every boss, and just going for Distance and Speed - Nothing matters past the Roll! (Maybe with Morihaus to go bowling?)
Okay, I've made an assumption about your reasonings. I admit it. That is an oversight - I simply couldn't see any reason past Min-Maxing and stat-jacking to do this stuff.
That being said - You've argued from a "Lore" perspective while claiming "Lore" is just code for "can't Change". Your own arguments have brought about my assumptions.
If you want to argue from a Lore Perspective - Keep in mind, even the most die-hard blade master in the Elder Scrolls can cast a few basic life-saving spells. If that Blade-master was an Altmer, they would still be roughly as good as a Redguard, yet they would also be a bit better at supporting magicka.
If a Nord becomes the most powerful mage in the world, I'm arguing it isn't because they were born with different Traits from other Nords. It's because they gained that power over a life time. They still start as a Nord, but they end their lives going beyond their "humble" origin. Their born-in racial traits are the same - Their skills and talents they learned over their life are the only thing different.
And now your going on about my spelling. You just cant stop yourself, can you?
You keep twisting it to where I apparently made you assume all this. Vivec would be proud man.
I'm done trying to argue with you, you are genuinely displaying some psychocomatic stuff.
...I love that idea.It'd be great if ZOS could at least change racials to a flat bonus.
WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »@WakeYourGhost Nobody wants the 9th era example. Your projecting.
As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.
Said it once, will say it again. It's just resistance to change, and given the few of you still arguing are parroting the same thing over and over, you dont have any ironclad proof races simply cannot change, cannot evolve, cannot deviate from the norm. Only sith deal in absolutes.
Projecting what? It was a random comment in a list of Random Things that came to my head first when I thought of "change"
Here are the points you ignored -
Your racial traits don't stop you from being a badass supermage or a sword-lord. They may not line up with it, but it doesn't prevent you from becoming these things.
The races are descendant from Gods and Mythical Beings who passed on their traits to these races - Some of these Same Gods still shape the lives of these races, and keep their souls infused with the nature they favor.
Evolution is a long process that comes over thousands on thousands of years, and still wouldn't be a significant factor here.
A Khajiit can no more change their racial Traits than they can change their fur.
If you were asking for different races with different traits, that is one thing - Like the hinted-at-but-never-talked-about-again variants of Khajiit that could be an alternate race.
There are types of Khajiit that look nearly like Man or Mer - And there are types of Khajiit who look more like Senches.
You want different stats, look no further than THE *** LORE. Find out what alternatives there actually are in said lore instead of just going with the idea that we should have a pick-your-own bonus system or alternatives for specific races because people want a Redguard that looks like an Altmer.
I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind.
You want more options, ask for more races - There are plenty to *** choose from in the Lore.
You want your Altmer to have Stamina passives because you've seen one use a sword - Go roll in puddles across Black Marsh until you catch the Knahaten Flu.
1. Most of the races are descendnats from gods and mythical beings. The notible exceptions to these are the Betmer who were not at all near the other two.
Going to skip the rest of that section as that is all un-confirmable fluff, and is irrelevent.
"A Khajiti can no more change their racial traits than they can change their fur". Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.
This quote, though, is all I needed to see.
"I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind."
Translation: "You didn't subscribe to my view, you want something I dont think you should have, I'm hear to beat you to a pulp."
Greedy, resistant to change, unfit to consult. Thanks for playing. The lore does not back you nearly as much as you would like to believe and you continue to cherry pick from it in a fashion that suggests to me you dont understand it in the slightest.
We'll have to agree to disagree. We are at an impasse.
I've referenced Lore-facts, I've stayed in line with previous games, and I've even given more in-depth citation.
You've just said "I want it!" over and over again.
It doesn't make a difference if you aren't able to see things from any point of view outside of your own.
Perhaps I'm being "inflexible", but it's only because any argument anyone makes is just rebuked with "you're no fun! I want my way now!".
Agree to disagree is fine. But dont lie about my position again. I've pointed out the various inconsistancies in your little facts and the fact the games have a unreliable narrator.
This is why your unfit to consult, you'll lie about anyone until you get what you want. Agree to disagree, fine. But stop with the lies.
I haven't seen any "inconsistencies" you've pointed out, and I havn't seen any "unreliable narrator" established.
Your position is a desire for statistical advantages outside of the normal and well-established racial system because you want your Waifu (Or Husbandu) to be a little stronger at your OTP of Race, Class, and Attributes.
I have nothing to gain here, so I won't "get what I want", and I have little to no motive to lie.
We know they won't change the Racial passives - It's been brought up a thousand times before.
My entire complain is pretending that these changes somehow fit with the Lore and Story in any meaningful fashion.
Don't twist me in to some manipulative dark villain trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses just so you can feel your argument has a stronger base through the glory of defiant opposition to a force of oppression.
Calling something a Lie doesn't actually make it a Lie.
Calling someone a Liar doesn't actually make them a Liar.
Except your acting manipulative.
1. I've never said 'let me have my way'.
2. I've never said 'your no fun'.
I've argued that races simply produce people who dont conform to the steriotype once and a while and you've simply not accepted that. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. Then you throw around aspersions about "Waifu" whatever the hell that is and I get very angry because it's clear your trying to put together a narrative. Your trying to make me out to be something I'm not and I'll call it what it is: Slander.
I've tried to argue the point as best I'm able but what I wont tollerate is misrepresenation and lies. What you want is for people to shut up and stop discussing an issue you think isn't a problem, and you'll use any means to do that.
Own up to the mistake, take the hit, and stop. Take responsibility for your actions.
Hyperbole - the things I put in "quotes" tend to be Hyperbole.
My argument to that has been that someone not conforming to that stereotype wouldn't have different passives - They would just overcome their racial predispositions and become something different.
Waifu - Perhaps that term is used more commonly in other communities to refer to a well constructed female (husbandu - Male) character. It's a comical term to lighten tension, not an insult.
All of that out of the way - I don't care if people talk about it or shut up. I want them to actually consider the people who aren't power-gamers who want to keep the integrity of the Lore, precedents, and story.
I also want people to stop calling their personal Build Support Passives "Lore Friendly" and stop trying to hammer that point home with meaningless drivel about how some Altmer use Swords.
Fact is - I could make (And have made) a Nord Mage that can do just as fine as an Altmer Mage. My DPS is a few points lower, my resistance if a few points higher. My sustain isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible, either.
I'm a freaking rollplayer playing an non optimal race for my build, I couldn't give a flying buggery about build optimization. I'm arguing it from a lore perspective and I've been doing so since I entered the thread. Agree to disagree, fine. But again with the misrepresentation and the -narrative- man. Is it compulsory? Can you not stop yourself?
...Okay, I've ignored the spelling thus far because I'm not bothered by spelling or grammar issues - Not everyone has english for a first language, some people type fast and don't double check, some people are on phones, some people just aren't great at it...
But this - Rollplayer... I'm imagining someone going in to a dungeon and rolling past every single enemy, every boss, and just going for Distance and Speed - Nothing matters past the Roll! (Maybe with Morihaus to go bowling?)
Okay, I've made an assumption about your reasonings. I admit it. That is an oversight - I simply couldn't see any reason past Min-Maxing and stat-jacking to do this stuff.
That being said - You've argued from a "Lore" perspective while claiming "Lore" is just code for "can't Change". Your own arguments have brought about my assumptions.
If you want to argue from a Lore Perspective - Keep in mind, even the most die-hard blade master in the Elder Scrolls can cast a few basic life-saving spells. If that Blade-master was an Altmer, they would still be roughly as good as a Redguard, yet they would also be a bit better at supporting magicka.
If a Nord becomes the most powerful mage in the world, I'm arguing it isn't because they were born with different Traits from other Nords. It's because they gained that power over a life time. They still start as a Nord, but they end their lives going beyond their "humble" origin. Their born-in racial traits are the same - Their skills and talents they learned over their life are the only thing different.
And now your going on about my spelling. You just cant stop yourself, can you?
You keep twisting it to where I apparently made you assume all this. Vivec would be proud man.
I'm done trying to argue with you, you are genuinely displaying some psychocomatic stuff.
For the love of all that is Unholy and Hidden in the Dark - The Spelling thing was a Joke which I tried to clearly preface with my lack of caring about such things. The small typo just made me think of something funny. Live a little - try smiling.
Your words caused me to assume - You didn't make me assume. It was still my assumption, and a wrong one. Should I say that whole "assume makes an ass of me" thing to cheer you up a bit?
My on-point observation about the Lore and how these things work is once again flat-out ignored. At his point, it's not even an argument - It's just a contest of who can say "you're wrong" in the most creative way while not paying attention to the other person's side. You win that one.
Also... Go Vehk yourself with that Vivec comment.
...And, I'm even less of a "man" than that floaty gold'n'blue jerkwad is.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »@WakeYourGhost Nobody wants the 9th era example. Your projecting.
As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.
Said it once, will say it again. It's just resistance to change, and given the few of you still arguing are parroting the same thing over and over, you dont have any ironclad proof races simply cannot change, cannot evolve, cannot deviate from the norm. Only sith deal in absolutes.
Projecting what? It was a random comment in a list of Random Things that came to my head first when I thought of "change"
Here are the points you ignored -
Your racial traits don't stop you from being a badass supermage or a sword-lord. They may not line up with it, but it doesn't prevent you from becoming these things.
The races are descendant from Gods and Mythical Beings who passed on their traits to these races - Some of these Same Gods still shape the lives of these races, and keep their souls infused with the nature they favor.
Evolution is a long process that comes over thousands on thousands of years, and still wouldn't be a significant factor here.
A Khajiit can no more change their racial Traits than they can change their fur.
If you were asking for different races with different traits, that is one thing - Like the hinted-at-but-never-talked-about-again variants of Khajiit that could be an alternate race.
There are types of Khajiit that look nearly like Man or Mer - And there are types of Khajiit who look more like Senches.
You want different stats, look no further than THE *** LORE. Find out what alternatives there actually are in said lore instead of just going with the idea that we should have a pick-your-own bonus system or alternatives for specific races because people want a Redguard that looks like an Altmer.
I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind.
You want more options, ask for more races - There are plenty to *** choose from in the Lore.
You want your Altmer to have Stamina passives because you've seen one use a sword - Go roll in puddles across Black Marsh until you catch the Knahaten Flu.
1. Most of the races are descendnats from gods and mythical beings. The notible exceptions to these are the Betmer who were not at all near the other two.
Going to skip the rest of that section as that is all un-confirmable fluff, and is irrelevent.
"A Khajiti can no more change their racial traits than they can change their fur". Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.
This quote, though, is all I needed to see.
"I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind."
Translation: "You didn't subscribe to my view, you want something I dont think you should have, I'm hear to beat you to a pulp."
Greedy, resistant to change, unfit to consult. Thanks for playing. The lore does not back you nearly as much as you would like to believe and you continue to cherry pick from it in a fashion that suggests to me you dont understand it in the slightest.
We'll have to agree to disagree. We are at an impasse.
I've referenced Lore-facts, I've stayed in line with previous games, and I've even given more in-depth citation.
You've just said "I want it!" over and over again.
It doesn't make a difference if you aren't able to see things from any point of view outside of your own.
Perhaps I'm being "inflexible", but it's only because any argument anyone makes is just rebuked with "you're no fun! I want my way now!".
Agree to disagree is fine. But dont lie about my position again. I've pointed out the various inconsistancies in your little facts and the fact the games have a unreliable narrator.
This is why your unfit to consult, you'll lie about anyone until you get what you want. Agree to disagree, fine. But stop with the lies.
I haven't seen any "inconsistencies" you've pointed out, and I havn't seen any "unreliable narrator" established.
Your position is a desire for statistical advantages outside of the normal and well-established racial system because you want your Waifu (Or Husbandu) to be a little stronger at your OTP of Race, Class, and Attributes.
I have nothing to gain here, so I won't "get what I want", and I have little to no motive to lie.
We know they won't change the Racial passives - It's been brought up a thousand times before.
My entire complain is pretending that these changes somehow fit with the Lore and Story in any meaningful fashion.
Don't twist me in to some manipulative dark villain trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses just so you can feel your argument has a stronger base through the glory of defiant opposition to a force of oppression.
Calling something a Lie doesn't actually make it a Lie.
Calling someone a Liar doesn't actually make them a Liar.
Except your acting manipulative.
1. I've never said 'let me have my way'.
2. I've never said 'your no fun'.
I've argued that races simply produce people who dont conform to the steriotype once and a while and you've simply not accepted that. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. Then you throw around aspersions about "Waifu" whatever the hell that is and I get very angry because it's clear your trying to put together a narrative. Your trying to make me out to be something I'm not and I'll call it what it is: Slander.
I've tried to argue the point as best I'm able but what I wont tollerate is misrepresenation and lies. What you want is for people to shut up and stop discussing an issue you think isn't a problem, and you'll use any means to do that.
Own up to the mistake, take the hit, and stop. Take responsibility for your actions.
Hyperbole - the things I put in "quotes" tend to be Hyperbole.
My argument to that has been that someone not conforming to that stereotype wouldn't have different passives - They would just overcome their racial predispositions and become something different.
Waifu - Perhaps that term is used more commonly in other communities to refer to a well constructed female (husbandu - Male) character. It's a comical term to lighten tension, not an insult.
All of that out of the way - I don't care if people talk about it or shut up. I want them to actually consider the people who aren't power-gamers who want to keep the integrity of the Lore, precedents, and story.
I also want people to stop calling their personal Build Support Passives "Lore Friendly" and stop trying to hammer that point home with meaningless drivel about how some Altmer use Swords.
Fact is - I could make (And have made) a Nord Mage that can do just as fine as an Altmer Mage. My DPS is a few points lower, my resistance if a few points higher. My sustain isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible, either.
I'm a freaking rollplayer playing an non optimal race for my build, I couldn't give a flying buggery about build optimization. I'm arguing it from a lore perspective and I've been doing so since I entered the thread. Agree to disagree, fine. But again with the misrepresentation and the -narrative- man. Is it compulsory? Can you not stop yourself?
...Okay, I've ignored the spelling thus far because I'm not bothered by spelling or grammar issues - Not everyone has english for a first language, some people type fast and don't double check, some people are on phones, some people just aren't great at it...
But this - Rollplayer... I'm imagining someone going in to a dungeon and rolling past every single enemy, every boss, and just going for Distance and Speed - Nothing matters past the Roll! (Maybe with Morihaus to go bowling?)
Okay, I've made an assumption about your reasonings. I admit it. That is an oversight - I simply couldn't see any reason past Min-Maxing and stat-jacking to do this stuff.
That being said - You've argued from a "Lore" perspective while claiming "Lore" is just code for "can't Change". Your own arguments have brought about my assumptions.
If you want to argue from a Lore Perspective - Keep in mind, even the most die-hard blade master in the Elder Scrolls can cast a few basic life-saving spells. If that Blade-master was an Altmer, they would still be roughly as good as a Redguard, yet they would also be a bit better at supporting magicka.
If a Nord becomes the most powerful mage in the world, I'm arguing it isn't because they were born with different Traits from other Nords. It's because they gained that power over a life time. They still start as a Nord, but they end their lives going beyond their "humble" origin. Their born-in racial traits are the same - Their skills and talents they learned over their life are the only thing different.
And now your going on about my spelling. You just cant stop yourself, can you?
You keep twisting it to where I apparently made you assume all this. Vivec would be proud man.
I'm done trying to argue with you, you are genuinely displaying some psychocomatic stuff.
For the love of all that is Unholy and Hidden in the Dark - The Spelling thing was a Joke which I tried to clearly preface with my lack of caring about such things. The small typo just made me think of something funny. Live a little - try smiling.
Your words caused me to assume - You didn't make me assume. It was still my assumption, and a wrong one. Should I say that whole "assume makes an ass of me" thing to cheer you up a bit?
My on-point observation about the Lore and how these things work is once again flat-out ignored. At his point, it's not even an argument - It's just a contest of who can say "you're wrong" in the most creative way while not paying attention to the other person's side. You win that one.
Also... Go Vehk yourself with that Vivec comment.
...And, I'm even less of a "man" than that floaty gold'n'blue jerkwad is.
I've given up on trying to argue lore with you because I've agreed to disagree which you simply wont. I'm not feeding the troll anymore.
And uh...you act just like that gold and blue jerkwad. Lies, within lies, that you both believe and dont. It'd be incredible under different circumstances.
You have your view of the lore, I have mine. Let it be, man. Stop trying to shame people into silence.
WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »@WakeYourGhost Nobody wants the 9th era example. Your projecting.
As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.
Said it once, will say it again. It's just resistance to change, and given the few of you still arguing are parroting the same thing over and over, you dont have any ironclad proof races simply cannot change, cannot evolve, cannot deviate from the norm. Only sith deal in absolutes.
Projecting what? It was a random comment in a list of Random Things that came to my head first when I thought of "change"
Here are the points you ignored -
Your racial traits don't stop you from being a badass supermage or a sword-lord. They may not line up with it, but it doesn't prevent you from becoming these things.
The races are descendant from Gods and Mythical Beings who passed on their traits to these races - Some of these Same Gods still shape the lives of these races, and keep their souls infused with the nature they favor.
Evolution is a long process that comes over thousands on thousands of years, and still wouldn't be a significant factor here.
A Khajiit can no more change their racial Traits than they can change their fur.
If you were asking for different races with different traits, that is one thing - Like the hinted-at-but-never-talked-about-again variants of Khajiit that could be an alternate race.
There are types of Khajiit that look nearly like Man or Mer - And there are types of Khajiit who look more like Senches.
You want different stats, look no further than THE *** LORE. Find out what alternatives there actually are in said lore instead of just going with the idea that we should have a pick-your-own bonus system or alternatives for specific races because people want a Redguard that looks like an Altmer.
I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind.
You want more options, ask for more races - There are plenty to *** choose from in the Lore.
You want your Altmer to have Stamina passives because you've seen one use a sword - Go roll in puddles across Black Marsh until you catch the Knahaten Flu.
1. Most of the races are descendnats from gods and mythical beings. The notible exceptions to these are the Betmer who were not at all near the other two.
Going to skip the rest of that section as that is all un-confirmable fluff, and is irrelevent.
"A Khajiti can no more change their racial traits than they can change their fur". Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.
This quote, though, is all I needed to see.
"I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind."
Translation: "You didn't subscribe to my view, you want something I dont think you should have, I'm hear to beat you to a pulp."
Greedy, resistant to change, unfit to consult. Thanks for playing. The lore does not back you nearly as much as you would like to believe and you continue to cherry pick from it in a fashion that suggests to me you dont understand it in the slightest.
We'll have to agree to disagree. We are at an impasse.
I've referenced Lore-facts, I've stayed in line with previous games, and I've even given more in-depth citation.
You've just said "I want it!" over and over again.
It doesn't make a difference if you aren't able to see things from any point of view outside of your own.
Perhaps I'm being "inflexible", but it's only because any argument anyone makes is just rebuked with "you're no fun! I want my way now!".
Agree to disagree is fine. But dont lie about my position again. I've pointed out the various inconsistancies in your little facts and the fact the games have a unreliable narrator.
This is why your unfit to consult, you'll lie about anyone until you get what you want. Agree to disagree, fine. But stop with the lies.
I haven't seen any "inconsistencies" you've pointed out, and I havn't seen any "unreliable narrator" established.
Your position is a desire for statistical advantages outside of the normal and well-established racial system because you want your Waifu (Or Husbandu) to be a little stronger at your OTP of Race, Class, and Attributes.
I have nothing to gain here, so I won't "get what I want", and I have little to no motive to lie.
We know they won't change the Racial passives - It's been brought up a thousand times before.
My entire complain is pretending that these changes somehow fit with the Lore and Story in any meaningful fashion.
Don't twist me in to some manipulative dark villain trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses just so you can feel your argument has a stronger base through the glory of defiant opposition to a force of oppression.
Calling something a Lie doesn't actually make it a Lie.
Calling someone a Liar doesn't actually make them a Liar.
Except your acting manipulative.
1. I've never said 'let me have my way'.
2. I've never said 'your no fun'.
I've argued that races simply produce people who dont conform to the steriotype once and a while and you've simply not accepted that. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. Then you throw around aspersions about "Waifu" whatever the hell that is and I get very angry because it's clear your trying to put together a narrative. Your trying to make me out to be something I'm not and I'll call it what it is: Slander.
I've tried to argue the point as best I'm able but what I wont tollerate is misrepresenation and lies. What you want is for people to shut up and stop discussing an issue you think isn't a problem, and you'll use any means to do that.
Own up to the mistake, take the hit, and stop. Take responsibility for your actions.
Hyperbole - the things I put in "quotes" tend to be Hyperbole.
My argument to that has been that someone not conforming to that stereotype wouldn't have different passives - They would just overcome their racial predispositions and become something different.
Waifu - Perhaps that term is used more commonly in other communities to refer to a well constructed female (husbandu - Male) character. It's a comical term to lighten tension, not an insult.
All of that out of the way - I don't care if people talk about it or shut up. I want them to actually consider the people who aren't power-gamers who want to keep the integrity of the Lore, precedents, and story.
I also want people to stop calling their personal Build Support Passives "Lore Friendly" and stop trying to hammer that point home with meaningless drivel about how some Altmer use Swords.
Fact is - I could make (And have made) a Nord Mage that can do just as fine as an Altmer Mage. My DPS is a few points lower, my resistance if a few points higher. My sustain isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible, either.
I'm a freaking rollplayer playing an non optimal race for my build, I couldn't give a flying buggery about build optimization. I'm arguing it from a lore perspective and I've been doing so since I entered the thread. Agree to disagree, fine. But again with the misrepresentation and the -narrative- man. Is it compulsory? Can you not stop yourself?
...Okay, I've ignored the spelling thus far because I'm not bothered by spelling or grammar issues - Not everyone has english for a first language, some people type fast and don't double check, some people are on phones, some people just aren't great at it...
But this - Rollplayer... I'm imagining someone going in to a dungeon and rolling past every single enemy, every boss, and just going for Distance and Speed - Nothing matters past the Roll! (Maybe with Morihaus to go bowling?)
Okay, I've made an assumption about your reasonings. I admit it. That is an oversight - I simply couldn't see any reason past Min-Maxing and stat-jacking to do this stuff.
That being said - You've argued from a "Lore" perspective while claiming "Lore" is just code for "can't Change". Your own arguments have brought about my assumptions.
If you want to argue from a Lore Perspective - Keep in mind, even the most die-hard blade master in the Elder Scrolls can cast a few basic life-saving spells. If that Blade-master was an Altmer, they would still be roughly as good as a Redguard, yet they would also be a bit better at supporting magicka.
If a Nord becomes the most powerful mage in the world, I'm arguing it isn't because they were born with different Traits from other Nords. It's because they gained that power over a life time. They still start as a Nord, but they end their lives going beyond their "humble" origin. Their born-in racial traits are the same - Their skills and talents they learned over their life are the only thing different.
And now your going on about my spelling. You just cant stop yourself, can you?
You keep twisting it to where I apparently made you assume all this. Vivec would be proud man.
I'm done trying to argue with you, you are genuinely displaying some psychocomatic stuff.
For the love of all that is Unholy and Hidden in the Dark - The Spelling thing was a Joke which I tried to clearly preface with my lack of caring about such things. The small typo just made me think of something funny. Live a little - try smiling.
Your words caused me to assume - You didn't make me assume. It was still my assumption, and a wrong one. Should I say that whole "assume makes an ass of me" thing to cheer you up a bit?
My on-point observation about the Lore and how these things work is once again flat-out ignored. At his point, it's not even an argument - It's just a contest of who can say "you're wrong" in the most creative way while not paying attention to the other person's side. You win that one.
Also... Go Vehk yourself with that Vivec comment.
...And, I'm even less of a "man" than that floaty gold'n'blue jerkwad is.
I've given up on trying to argue lore with you because I've agreed to disagree which you simply wont. I'm not feeding the troll anymore.
And uh...you act just like that gold and blue jerkwad. Lies, within lies, that you both believe and dont. It'd be incredible under different circumstances.
You have your view of the lore, I have mine. Let it be, man. Stop trying to shame people into silence.
I'm still not sure what "Lies" I ever said - But you don't need to bother backing up that claim.
I've never tried to Shame you or anyone in to silence.
Slander cuts deep and both ways. I at least admitted I was wrong about your motivations and perspective, and that I got the wrong idea from what you said (Or more aptly took the wrong idea) - You refuse to give an inch and even consider that you might have the wrong idea about where I'm coming from.
As you said - I'll let it be. This has gone too wrong and we're both starting to look like fools here.
...But seriously, stop calling me "man"... Please? It's probably just a different vernacular than I'm used to, but it really doesn't sit well with me.
Agreed, especiually those greedy enough to want to cherry-pick their passives and too narrow minded to see how that would mess with elder scrolls setting, yes?Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Yeah I'm not going to respond to any of the quotes, I'ma just say, there's no point in responding to the greedy or narrow minded.
You -really- don't pay attention, do you?Doctordarkspawn wrote: »"Lore" is code for peoples delicate sensibilities reguarding change.
And you keep ignoring the fact that one has nothing to do with the other!Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I have yet to see one person successfully prove to me that it breaks lore, as it is currently written. As it stands, we have multiple examples of members of a race who do not conform to the tallents those races traditionally show...
Right back atcha!Doctordarkspawn wrote: »...but you keep parroting the same thing, and it isn't enough.
And that would be a good place to say that if we started talking about leaving -racial- passives alone and adding some sort of -cultural- passives as well, which then -would- be freely selectable depending on your characters backstory, this would be a decent argument for it.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.
Oh, seems I did that already, but I guess some people only read what they want to see, huh?TheShadowScout wrote: »And as I keep saying whenever this comes up, instead of asking them to throw out a part of the TES lore to cater to gamers, maybe think of what other options there could be. Not changing something, but maybe adding something?
I keep suggesting "background passives", that can be done -in addition- to the racial ones... things to reflect a characters birthplace, upbringing, life before the adventuring career... like:
...someone who grew up in skyrim might have a bit of extra cold resistance from being used to it, someone who grew up in black marsh might have a bit of extra disease resistance from making it through adult age there, someone who grew up in vvardenfell might have a bit of fire resistance from living near the ashlands and someone who grew up in valenwood might have some extra sneakyness from picking up forester skills as a kid;
...someone who grew up in a noble household surrounded by tutors and with access to a good library might have a leg up in magica, while someone who grew up helping the family business as commoner might have gained some extra stamina, and someone who grew up with exiles out in the wilds might gain a bit of extra toughness;
...someone who was a mystic scholar before adventuring might gain some spell resistance, somene who was a skilled worker might get a crafting bonus, and someone who was a petty criminal might get a pickpocket bonus;
...and so on...
...there could even be negative perks associated with this... the bookish scholar might get a penalty to vendor prices due to lack of haggling skills while the child of exiles might get increased bounty gain because the city guard has prejudices, or whatever...
Each on its own should be less then any racial perk... but they would make up for it by being freely selectable (though they might require "any race, any alliance" unlock for selecting non-alliance birthplaces I guess).
...which is why you seem to have such trouble here, I am guessing...Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Cherrypicking lore dont work when you debate someone who has an actual understanding of it.
And once again, it seems you keep trying to sell us attributes as racial traits.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.
And that is a valid point, the racial passives should -not- give you a 5-10% bonus on top of everything, they should give you a big leg up at the start, but become less and less effective as your level advances until in the end, they are neglectable in effectiveness.I won't say racials are gamebreaking, because they're not...but I think they scale FAR too well...
TheShadowScout wrote: »
The racial traits are a -predisposition- for one or another thing. They decide if someone finds it easier to follow one path or another; but do not preclude anyone from ignoring that and following a path they are not racially predisposed towards. Humanoid beings after all are not ants, born to be forever locked into their position within the hive, right?
Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »IMHO it would be better to have racial passives "morphs" instead of having a different race types as OP sugested. That could simply work as a regular skill morph but instead of skill it would be passive. So when you reach rank III of a racial passive you will be able to pick one of two morphs (magicka or stamina). So if you are a khajiit you will be able to pick a morph that converts 8% weapon crit to a 8% spell crit. Or if you are an Argonian you will be able to pick a morph that converts 3% max magicka to 3% max stamina etc.
Of course - it would require some balancing as some stamina races might be super OP as their magicka variants and vice versa.
TheShadowScout wrote: »-change- needs to be thought over and considered, or it ends up change for the worse. Which is why we argue about changes here on the forums...
if we started talking about leaving -racial- passives alone and adding some sort of -cultural- passives as well, which then -would- be freely selectable depending on your characters backstory,
And if we stopped talking about everyone cherry-picking their custom passives and started arguing about some better way to reflect the racial perks in the game system, well, that would be a change I'd argue for instead of against!
TheShadowScout wrote: »
dovakiin5574 wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
The racial traits are a -predisposition- for one or another thing. They decide if someone finds it easier to follow one path or another; but do not preclude anyone from ignoring that and following a path they are not racially predisposed towards. Humanoid beings after all are not ants, born to be forever locked into their position within the hive, right?
Exactly and like humans of all races, are not "locked" into specific roles and types. Meaning [certain colored] people are not ALWAYS smarter (irl example, no racism intended, example given for clarity). Just because you are a race, saying they can only do certain things is racist even in TES Lore.
I didn't notice this earlier..Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »IMHO it would be better to have racial passives "morphs" instead of having a different race types as OP sugested. That could simply work as a regular skill morph but instead of skill it would be passive. So when you reach rank III of a racial passive you will be able to pick one of two morphs (magicka or stamina). So if you are a khajiit you will be able to pick a morph that converts 8% weapon crit to a 8% spell crit. Or if you are an Argonian you will be able to pick a morph that converts 3% max magicka to 3% max stamina etc.
Of course - it would require some balancing as some stamina races might be super OP as their magicka variants and vice versa.
I will not be silenced, I will reserve the right to respond with my point of view when others try to push some argument I disagree with.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »More narrative making from the other side of the arguement. I'll respond to what I feel like but after this, do us both a favor and leave me alone.
...when did I -ever- tell someone to be silent? Or to "leave me alone" when they were arguing against me?Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Now stop trying to shame people into silence.
Agreed, let's quit the personal remarks.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Okay olive branch time.
You said something about 'cultural passives'. Why dont we go over that again, because I dont remember seeing this. Maybe it got burried under a wall of text. But hey, I'm open to the idea. Why dont one of you make me a pitch?
Agreed.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I think that's honestly as good as you could get from the system that you'd propose. It might also help Hybrids along a little bit.
Though honestly I'm fine with just that much. Some simple stuff, like max magicka, ect. That's all anyone is really asking for, anyway.
TheShadowScout wrote: »Agreed.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I think that's honestly as good as you could get from the system that you'd propose. It might also help Hybrids along a little bit.
Though honestly I'm fine with just that much. Some simple stuff, like max magicka, ect. That's all anyone is really asking for, anyway.
Hmmm...
...another thought...
...if this was taken up by ZOS, it also would be a viable option to shift all "increase max" type perks from racial to cultural, and replace them with "recovery increase" on the racial level... that way, racial perks would help the sustain, but not the total power, which if it was centered in the cultural, would then be selectable... that way the racial passives would beccome less "must have" for certain builds (since all kinds of characters can gain from better recovery, even for their non-primary attributes)
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Okay olive branch time.
TheShadowScout wrote: »As I had been saying, here and in some similar threads before, I for one would love to see the racial passives left to reflect the racial perks in the lore (possibly changed to have less of an endgame impact, but leaving the -racial- flavor), and just -add- new passives for our characters to invest to that!
We have passives for the characters race.
But there could be more, additional passives that -would- be freely selectable depending on character backstory.
....[redacted for brevity]....
I only want to play as a Bosmer for every roll... I wish there's racial polymorphs.
Bosmer forever!!!
@Tonturri My Bosmer will gain approximately 200 magicka regen and 3-4k magicka if I switched her to an Altmer.
She would, as a result of the change, lose about...140, 150 stamina regen and 573 stamina. On my pvp stamina builds, such passives are worth about...300-400 stamina regen and 1.5-2k stamina?
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Tonturri My Bosmer will gain approximately 200 magicka regen and 3-4k magicka if I switched her to an Altmer.
For your bosmer to gain 200 regen from the 9% regen passive that high elfs have you would need to have a BASE regen of 2222. There is absolutely no way you have this short of a lich proc.She would, as a result of the change, lose about...140, 150 stamina regen and 573 stamina. On my pvp stamina builds, such passives are worth about...300-400 stamina regen and 1.5-2k stamina?
Same here, to get 400 regen out of the 21% regen passive you would need a base regen of 1905. I have no idea how you would get that on a Stam build and still be able to kill someone.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »@Tonturri My Bosmer will gain approximately 200 magicka regen and 3-4k magicka if I switched her to an Altmer.
For your bosmer to gain 200 regen from the 9% regen passive that high elfs have you would need to have a BASE regen of 2222. There is absolutely no way you have this short of a lich proc.She would, as a result of the change, lose about...140, 150 stamina regen and 573 stamina. On my pvp stamina builds, such passives are worth about...300-400 stamina regen and 1.5-2k stamina?
Same here, to get 400 regen out of the 21% regen passive you would need a base regen of 1905. I have no idea how you would get that on a Stam build and still be able to kill someone.
1905 in stamina build is nothing lol .