RACE PASSIVES - A comprehensive and well researched suggestion

Tonturri

My Bosmer will gain approximately 200 magicka regen and 3-4k magicka if I switched her to an Altmer.

She would, as a result of the change, lose about...140, 150 stamina regen and 573 stamina. On my pvp stamina builds, such passives are worth about...300-400 stamina regen and 1.5-2k stamina? And then I'm not a nightblade or w/e so Stealthy is worthless to me.

It'd be great if ZOS could at least change racials to a flat bonus. The game is pretty much a stack one way or another. Either you're a magicka build and you stack mag/spell dmg/whatever, or a stamina setup and you stack stam/wpn damage, with minor variance between setups to accomodate buffs 'n whatnot that use the other resource. Racial passives contribute to the (imo) awful 'stack this or get rekt' dealio we have going (mild exaggerating, but eh).

I won't say racials are gamebreaking, because they're not...but I think they scale FAR too well. The game itself rewards you (in ways other than racial passives) for stacking into just a few things.

I'm not sure what to do about the racials that just are utterly useless to the opposite side of the spectrum. While in nearly any situation I'd love an extra 2k stam and 300 stam regen on my Bosmer (CC breaking, block, dodging - I pvp and tank in pve, so woo /o/), I'm not sure how they would mess around with, say...the %weapon crit Khajiit have, bosmer stealthy passive, or Argonian on-potion bonuses, buuut...someone else can deal with that.

Mind I'm not saying I should be getting 300 extra stam regen and 2k stam, either. Those are just off-the-top-of-noggin numbers. But I do think racials should 1) stop scaling really, really well and contributing to 'stack into 1-2 things!' and 2) Be more useful to builds that don't stack everything into the stats given by said racials. Hence the hope they be turned into flat numbers instead of percentage bonuses.

Kendaric

MakoFore wrote: »

nice ideas. i dont like the idea of being locked into a playstyle because of a race- that s inherently- well - racist. i wanted to be a breton and wield a sword and shield like a knight- and be an orc with a mage staff- but doing so would only impair my potential as an end gamer. yes you can play what u want- but once u hit max cp as i have and take part in end game trials- every little bit helps. i think the ideas you propose are really worth zos considering.

And you can be a sword-wielding breton or staff-wielding orc, noone but yourself is stopping you from doing it.

WakeYourGhost

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@WakeYourGhost Nobody wants the 9th era example. Your projecting.

As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.

Said it once, will say it again. It's just resistance to change, and given the few of you still arguing are parroting the same thing over and over, you dont have any ironclad proof races simply cannot change, cannot evolve, cannot deviate from the norm. Only sith deal in absolutes.

Projecting what? It was a random comment in a list of Random Things that came to my head first when I thought of "change"

Here are the points you ignored -
Your racial traits don't stop you from being a badass supermage or a sword-lord. They may not line up with it, but it doesn't prevent you from becoming these things.
The races are descendant from Gods and Mythical Beings who passed on their traits to these races - Some of these Same Gods still shape the lives of these races, and keep their souls infused with the nature they favor.
Evolution is a long process that comes over thousands on thousands of years, and still wouldn't be a significant factor here.

A Khajiit can no more change their racial Traits than they can change their fur.

If you were asking for different races with different traits, that is one thing - Like the hinted-at-but-never-talked-about-again variants of Khajiit that could be an alternate race.
There are types of Khajiit that look nearly like Man or Mer - And there are types of Khajiit who look more like Senches.
You want different stats, look no further than THE *** LORE. Find out what alternatives there actually are in said lore instead of just going with the idea that we should have a pick-your-own bonus system or alternatives for specific races because people want a Redguard that looks like an Altmer.

I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind.

You want more options, ask for more races - There are plenty to *** choose from in the Lore.
You want your Altmer to have Stamina passives because you've seen one use a sword - Go roll in puddles across Black Marsh until you catch the Knahaten Flu.

1. Most of the races are descendnats from gods and mythical beings. The notible exceptions to these are the Betmer who were not at all near the other two.

Going to skip the rest of that section as that is all un-confirmable fluff, and is irrelevent.

"A Khajiti can no more change their racial traits than they can change their fur". Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.

This quote, though, is all I needed to see.

"I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind."

Translation: "You didn't subscribe to my view, you want something I dont think you should have, I'm hear to beat you to a pulp."

Greedy, resistant to change, unfit to consult. Thanks for playing. The lore does not back you nearly as much as you would like to believe and you continue to cherry pick from it in a fashion that suggests to me you dont understand it in the slightest.

We'll have to agree to disagree. We are at an impasse.
I've referenced Lore-facts, I've stayed in line with previous games, and I've even given more in-depth citation.
You've just said "I want it!" over and over again.

It doesn't make a difference if you aren't able to see things from any point of view outside of your own.
Perhaps I'm being "inflexible", but it's only because any argument anyone makes is just rebuked with "you're no fun! I want my way now!".

Agree to disagree is fine. But dont lie about my position again. I've pointed out the various inconsistancies in your little facts and the fact the games have a unreliable narrator.

This is why your unfit to consult, you'll lie about anyone until you get what you want. Agree to disagree, fine. But stop with the lies.

I haven't seen any "inconsistencies" you've pointed out, and I havn't seen any "unreliable narrator" established.
Your position is a desire for statistical advantages outside of the normal and well-established racial system because you want your Waifu (Or Husbandu) to be a little stronger at your OTP of Race, Class, and Attributes.

I have nothing to gain here, so I won't "get what I want", and I have little to no motive to lie.
We know they won't change the Racial passives - It's been brought up a thousand times before.
My entire complain is pretending that these changes somehow fit with the Lore and Story in any meaningful fashion.

Don't twist me in to some manipulative dark villain trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses just so you can feel your argument has a stronger base through the glory of defiant opposition to a force of oppression.
Calling something a Lie doesn't actually make it a Lie.
Calling someone a Liar doesn't actually make them a Liar.

Except your acting manipulative.

1. I've never said 'let me have my way'.

2. I've never said 'your no fun'.

I've argued that races simply produce people who dont conform to the steriotype once and a while and you've simply not accepted that. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. Then you throw around aspersions about "Waifu" whatever the hell that is and I get very angry because it's clear your trying to put together a narrative. Your trying to make me out to be something I'm not and I'll call it what it is: Slander.

I've tried to argue the point as best I'm able but what I wont tollerate is misrepresenation and lies. What you want is for people to shut up and stop discussing an issue you think isn't a problem, and you'll use any means to do that.

Own up to the mistake, take the hit, and stop. Take responsibility for your actions.

Hyperbole - the things I put in "quotes" tend to be Hyperbole.
My argument to that has been that someone not conforming to that stereotype wouldn't have different passives - They would just overcome their racial predispositions and become something different.

Waifu - Perhaps that term is used more commonly in other communities to refer to a well constructed female (husbandu - Male) character. It's a comical term to lighten tension, not an insult.


All of that out of the way - I don't care if people talk about it or shut up. I want them to actually consider the people who aren't power-gamers who want to keep the integrity of the Lore, precedents, and story.
I also want people to stop calling their personal Build Support Passives "Lore Friendly" and stop trying to hammer that point home with meaningless drivel about how some Altmer use Swords.
Fact is - I could make (And have made) a Nord Mage that can do just as fine as an Altmer Mage. My DPS is a few points lower, my resistance if a few points higher. My sustain isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible, either.

I'm a freaking rollplayer playing an non optimal race for my build, I couldn't give a flying buggery about build optimization. I'm arguing it from a lore perspective and I've been doing so since I entered the thread. Agree to disagree, fine. But again with the misrepresentation and the -narrative- man. Is it compulsory? Can you not stop yourself?

...Okay, I've ignored the spelling thus far because I'm not bothered by spelling or grammar issues - Not everyone has english for a first language, some people type fast and don't double check, some people are on phones, some people just aren't great at it...
But this - Rollplayer... I'm imagining someone going in to a dungeon and rolling past every single enemy, every boss, and just going for Distance and Speed - Nothing matters past the Roll! (Maybe with Morihaus to go bowling?)

Okay, I've made an assumption about your reasonings. I admit it. That is an oversight - I simply couldn't see any reason past Min-Maxing and stat-jacking to do this stuff.
That being said - You've argued from a "Lore" perspective while claiming "Lore" is just code for "can't Change". Your own arguments have brought about my assumptions.

If you want to argue from a Lore Perspective - Keep in mind, even the most die-hard blade master in the Elder Scrolls can cast a few basic life-saving spells. If that Blade-master was an Altmer, they would still be roughly as good as a Redguard, yet they would also be a bit better at supporting magicka.

If a Nord becomes the most powerful mage in the world, I'm arguing it isn't because they were born with different Traits from other Nords. It's because they gained that power over a life time. They still start as a Nord, but they end their lives going beyond their "humble" origin. Their born-in racial traits are the same - Their skills and talents they learned over their life are the only thing different.

And now your going on about my spelling. You just cant stop yourself, can you?

You keep twisting it to where I apparently made you assume all this. Vivec would be proud man.

I'm done trying to argue with you, you are genuinely displaying some psychocomatic stuff.

For the love of all that is Unholy and Hidden in the Dark - The Spelling thing was a Joke which I tried to clearly preface with my lack of caring about such things. The small typo just made me think of something funny. Live a little - try smiling.

Your words caused me to assume - You didn't make me assume. It was still my assumption, and a wrong one. Should I say that whole "assume makes an ass of me" thing to cheer you up a bit?

My on-point observation about the Lore and how these things work is once again flat-out ignored. At his point, it's not even an argument - It's just a contest of who can say "you're wrong" in the most creative way while not paying attention to the other person's side. You win that one.

Also... Go Vehk yourself with that Vivec comment.
...And, I'm even less of a "man" than that floaty gold'n'blue jerkwad is.

WakeYourGhost

Tonturri wrote: »

It'd be great if ZOS could at least change racials to a flat bonus.

...I love that idea.
Being an Altmer gives you a flat 1500-2500 Magicka or something and a flat 100-200 regen?
That would actually be so useful in some situations. It could really make different Utility spells more useful in a Stam build.

Doctordarkspawn

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@WakeYourGhost Nobody wants the 9th era example. Your projecting.

As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.

Said it once, will say it again. It's just resistance to change, and given the few of you still arguing are parroting the same thing over and over, you dont have any ironclad proof races simply cannot change, cannot evolve, cannot deviate from the norm. Only sith deal in absolutes.

Projecting what? It was a random comment in a list of Random Things that came to my head first when I thought of "change"

Here are the points you ignored -
Your racial traits don't stop you from being a badass supermage or a sword-lord. They may not line up with it, but it doesn't prevent you from becoming these things.
The races are descendant from Gods and Mythical Beings who passed on their traits to these races - Some of these Same Gods still shape the lives of these races, and keep their souls infused with the nature they favor.
Evolution is a long process that comes over thousands on thousands of years, and still wouldn't be a significant factor here.

A Khajiit can no more change their racial Traits than they can change their fur.

If you were asking for different races with different traits, that is one thing - Like the hinted-at-but-never-talked-about-again variants of Khajiit that could be an alternate race.
There are types of Khajiit that look nearly like Man or Mer - And there are types of Khajiit who look more like Senches.
You want different stats, look no further than THE *** LORE. Find out what alternatives there actually are in said lore instead of just going with the idea that we should have a pick-your-own bonus system or alternatives for specific races because people want a Redguard that looks like an Altmer.

I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind.

You want more options, ask for more races - There are plenty to *** choose from in the Lore.
You want your Altmer to have Stamina passives because you've seen one use a sword - Go roll in puddles across Black Marsh until you catch the Knahaten Flu.

1. Most of the races are descendnats from gods and mythical beings. The notible exceptions to these are the Betmer who were not at all near the other two.

Going to skip the rest of that section as that is all un-confirmable fluff, and is irrelevent.

"A Khajiti can no more change their racial traits than they can change their fur". Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.

This quote, though, is all I needed to see.

"I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind."

Translation: "You didn't subscribe to my view, you want something I dont think you should have, I'm hear to beat you to a pulp."

Greedy, resistant to change, unfit to consult. Thanks for playing. The lore does not back you nearly as much as you would like to believe and you continue to cherry pick from it in a fashion that suggests to me you dont understand it in the slightest.

We'll have to agree to disagree. We are at an impasse.
I've referenced Lore-facts, I've stayed in line with previous games, and I've even given more in-depth citation.
You've just said "I want it!" over and over again.

It doesn't make a difference if you aren't able to see things from any point of view outside of your own.
Perhaps I'm being "inflexible", but it's only because any argument anyone makes is just rebuked with "you're no fun! I want my way now!".

Agree to disagree is fine. But dont lie about my position again. I've pointed out the various inconsistancies in your little facts and the fact the games have a unreliable narrator.

This is why your unfit to consult, you'll lie about anyone until you get what you want. Agree to disagree, fine. But stop with the lies.

I haven't seen any "inconsistencies" you've pointed out, and I havn't seen any "unreliable narrator" established.
Your position is a desire for statistical advantages outside of the normal and well-established racial system because you want your Waifu (Or Husbandu) to be a little stronger at your OTP of Race, Class, and Attributes.

I have nothing to gain here, so I won't "get what I want", and I have little to no motive to lie.
We know they won't change the Racial passives - It's been brought up a thousand times before.
My entire complain is pretending that these changes somehow fit with the Lore and Story in any meaningful fashion.

Don't twist me in to some manipulative dark villain trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses just so you can feel your argument has a stronger base through the glory of defiant opposition to a force of oppression.
Calling something a Lie doesn't actually make it a Lie.
Calling someone a Liar doesn't actually make them a Liar.

Except your acting manipulative.

1. I've never said 'let me have my way'.

2. I've never said 'your no fun'.

I've argued that races simply produce people who dont conform to the steriotype once and a while and you've simply not accepted that. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. Then you throw around aspersions about "Waifu" whatever the hell that is and I get very angry because it's clear your trying to put together a narrative. Your trying to make me out to be something I'm not and I'll call it what it is: Slander.

I've tried to argue the point as best I'm able but what I wont tollerate is misrepresenation and lies. What you want is for people to shut up and stop discussing an issue you think isn't a problem, and you'll use any means to do that.

Own up to the mistake, take the hit, and stop. Take responsibility for your actions.

Hyperbole - the things I put in "quotes" tend to be Hyperbole.
My argument to that has been that someone not conforming to that stereotype wouldn't have different passives - They would just overcome their racial predispositions and become something different.

Waifu - Perhaps that term is used more commonly in other communities to refer to a well constructed female (husbandu - Male) character. It's a comical term to lighten tension, not an insult.


All of that out of the way - I don't care if people talk about it or shut up. I want them to actually consider the people who aren't power-gamers who want to keep the integrity of the Lore, precedents, and story.
I also want people to stop calling their personal Build Support Passives "Lore Friendly" and stop trying to hammer that point home with meaningless drivel about how some Altmer use Swords.
Fact is - I could make (And have made) a Nord Mage that can do just as fine as an Altmer Mage. My DPS is a few points lower, my resistance if a few points higher. My sustain isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible, either.

I'm a freaking rollplayer playing an non optimal race for my build, I couldn't give a flying buggery about build optimization. I'm arguing it from a lore perspective and I've been doing so since I entered the thread. Agree to disagree, fine. But again with the misrepresentation and the -narrative- man. Is it compulsory? Can you not stop yourself?

...Okay, I've ignored the spelling thus far because I'm not bothered by spelling or grammar issues - Not everyone has english for a first language, some people type fast and don't double check, some people are on phones, some people just aren't great at it...
But this - Rollplayer... I'm imagining someone going in to a dungeon and rolling past every single enemy, every boss, and just going for Distance and Speed - Nothing matters past the Roll! (Maybe with Morihaus to go bowling?)

Okay, I've made an assumption about your reasonings. I admit it. That is an oversight - I simply couldn't see any reason past Min-Maxing and stat-jacking to do this stuff.
That being said - You've argued from a "Lore" perspective while claiming "Lore" is just code for "can't Change". Your own arguments have brought about my assumptions.

If you want to argue from a Lore Perspective - Keep in mind, even the most die-hard blade master in the Elder Scrolls can cast a few basic life-saving spells. If that Blade-master was an Altmer, they would still be roughly as good as a Redguard, yet they would also be a bit better at supporting magicka.

If a Nord becomes the most powerful mage in the world, I'm arguing it isn't because they were born with different Traits from other Nords. It's because they gained that power over a life time. They still start as a Nord, but they end their lives going beyond their "humble" origin. Their born-in racial traits are the same - Their skills and talents they learned over their life are the only thing different.

And now your going on about my spelling. You just cant stop yourself, can you?

You keep twisting it to where I apparently made you assume all this. Vivec would be proud man.

I'm done trying to argue with you, you are genuinely displaying some psychocomatic stuff.

For the love of all that is Unholy and Hidden in the Dark - The Spelling thing was a Joke which I tried to clearly preface with my lack of caring about such things. The small typo just made me think of something funny. Live a little - try smiling.

Your words caused me to assume - You didn't make me assume. It was still my assumption, and a wrong one. Should I say that whole "assume makes an ass of me" thing to cheer you up a bit?

My on-point observation about the Lore and how these things work is once again flat-out ignored. At his point, it's not even an argument - It's just a contest of who can say "you're wrong" in the most creative way while not paying attention to the other person's side. You win that one.

Also... Go Vehk yourself with that Vivec comment.
...And, I'm even less of a "man" than that floaty gold'n'blue jerkwad is.

I've given up on trying to argue lore with you because I've agreed to disagree which you simply wont. I'm not feeding the troll anymore.

And uh...you act just like that gold and blue jerkwad. Lies, within lies, that you both believe and dont. It'd be incredible under different circumstances.

You have your view of the lore, I have mine. Let it be, man. Stop trying to shame people into silence.

WakeYourGhost

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@WakeYourGhost Nobody wants the 9th era example. Your projecting.

As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.

Said it once, will say it again. It's just resistance to change, and given the few of you still arguing are parroting the same thing over and over, you dont have any ironclad proof races simply cannot change, cannot evolve, cannot deviate from the norm. Only sith deal in absolutes.

Projecting what? It was a random comment in a list of Random Things that came to my head first when I thought of "change"

Here are the points you ignored -
Your racial traits don't stop you from being a badass supermage or a sword-lord. They may not line up with it, but it doesn't prevent you from becoming these things.
The races are descendant from Gods and Mythical Beings who passed on their traits to these races - Some of these Same Gods still shape the lives of these races, and keep their souls infused with the nature they favor.
Evolution is a long process that comes over thousands on thousands of years, and still wouldn't be a significant factor here.

A Khajiit can no more change their racial Traits than they can change their fur.

If you were asking for different races with different traits, that is one thing - Like the hinted-at-but-never-talked-about-again variants of Khajiit that could be an alternate race.
There are types of Khajiit that look nearly like Man or Mer - And there are types of Khajiit who look more like Senches.
You want different stats, look no further than THE *** LORE. Find out what alternatives there actually are in said lore instead of just going with the idea that we should have a pick-your-own bonus system or alternatives for specific races because people want a Redguard that looks like an Altmer.

I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind.

You want more options, ask for more races - There are plenty to *** choose from in the Lore.
You want your Altmer to have Stamina passives because you've seen one use a sword - Go roll in puddles across Black Marsh until you catch the Knahaten Flu.

1. Most of the races are descendnats from gods and mythical beings. The notible exceptions to these are the Betmer who were not at all near the other two.

Going to skip the rest of that section as that is all un-confirmable fluff, and is irrelevent.

"A Khajiti can no more change their racial traits than they can change their fur". Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.

This quote, though, is all I needed to see.

"I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind."

Translation: "You didn't subscribe to my view, you want something I dont think you should have, I'm hear to beat you to a pulp."

Greedy, resistant to change, unfit to consult. Thanks for playing. The lore does not back you nearly as much as you would like to believe and you continue to cherry pick from it in a fashion that suggests to me you dont understand it in the slightest.

We'll have to agree to disagree. We are at an impasse.
I've referenced Lore-facts, I've stayed in line with previous games, and I've even given more in-depth citation.
You've just said "I want it!" over and over again.

It doesn't make a difference if you aren't able to see things from any point of view outside of your own.
Perhaps I'm being "inflexible", but it's only because any argument anyone makes is just rebuked with "you're no fun! I want my way now!".

Agree to disagree is fine. But dont lie about my position again. I've pointed out the various inconsistancies in your little facts and the fact the games have a unreliable narrator.

This is why your unfit to consult, you'll lie about anyone until you get what you want. Agree to disagree, fine. But stop with the lies.

I haven't seen any "inconsistencies" you've pointed out, and I havn't seen any "unreliable narrator" established.
Your position is a desire for statistical advantages outside of the normal and well-established racial system because you want your Waifu (Or Husbandu) to be a little stronger at your OTP of Race, Class, and Attributes.

I have nothing to gain here, so I won't "get what I want", and I have little to no motive to lie.
We know they won't change the Racial passives - It's been brought up a thousand times before.
My entire complain is pretending that these changes somehow fit with the Lore and Story in any meaningful fashion.

Don't twist me in to some manipulative dark villain trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses just so you can feel your argument has a stronger base through the glory of defiant opposition to a force of oppression.
Calling something a Lie doesn't actually make it a Lie.
Calling someone a Liar doesn't actually make them a Liar.

Except your acting manipulative.

1. I've never said 'let me have my way'.

2. I've never said 'your no fun'.

I've argued that races simply produce people who dont conform to the steriotype once and a while and you've simply not accepted that. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. Then you throw around aspersions about "Waifu" whatever the hell that is and I get very angry because it's clear your trying to put together a narrative. Your trying to make me out to be something I'm not and I'll call it what it is: Slander.

I've tried to argue the point as best I'm able but what I wont tollerate is misrepresenation and lies. What you want is for people to shut up and stop discussing an issue you think isn't a problem, and you'll use any means to do that.

Own up to the mistake, take the hit, and stop. Take responsibility for your actions.

Hyperbole - the things I put in "quotes" tend to be Hyperbole.
My argument to that has been that someone not conforming to that stereotype wouldn't have different passives - They would just overcome their racial predispositions and become something different.

Waifu - Perhaps that term is used more commonly in other communities to refer to a well constructed female (husbandu - Male) character. It's a comical term to lighten tension, not an insult.


All of that out of the way - I don't care if people talk about it or shut up. I want them to actually consider the people who aren't power-gamers who want to keep the integrity of the Lore, precedents, and story.
I also want people to stop calling their personal Build Support Passives "Lore Friendly" and stop trying to hammer that point home with meaningless drivel about how some Altmer use Swords.
Fact is - I could make (And have made) a Nord Mage that can do just as fine as an Altmer Mage. My DPS is a few points lower, my resistance if a few points higher. My sustain isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible, either.

I'm a freaking rollplayer playing an non optimal race for my build, I couldn't give a flying buggery about build optimization. I'm arguing it from a lore perspective and I've been doing so since I entered the thread. Agree to disagree, fine. But again with the misrepresentation and the -narrative- man. Is it compulsory? Can you not stop yourself?

...Okay, I've ignored the spelling thus far because I'm not bothered by spelling or grammar issues - Not everyone has english for a first language, some people type fast and don't double check, some people are on phones, some people just aren't great at it...
But this - Rollplayer... I'm imagining someone going in to a dungeon and rolling past every single enemy, every boss, and just going for Distance and Speed - Nothing matters past the Roll! (Maybe with Morihaus to go bowling?)

Okay, I've made an assumption about your reasonings. I admit it. That is an oversight - I simply couldn't see any reason past Min-Maxing and stat-jacking to do this stuff.
That being said - You've argued from a "Lore" perspective while claiming "Lore" is just code for "can't Change". Your own arguments have brought about my assumptions.

If you want to argue from a Lore Perspective - Keep in mind, even the most die-hard blade master in the Elder Scrolls can cast a few basic life-saving spells. If that Blade-master was an Altmer, they would still be roughly as good as a Redguard, yet they would also be a bit better at supporting magicka.

If a Nord becomes the most powerful mage in the world, I'm arguing it isn't because they were born with different Traits from other Nords. It's because they gained that power over a life time. They still start as a Nord, but they end their lives going beyond their "humble" origin. Their born-in racial traits are the same - Their skills and talents they learned over their life are the only thing different.

And now your going on about my spelling. You just cant stop yourself, can you?

You keep twisting it to where I apparently made you assume all this. Vivec would be proud man.

I'm done trying to argue with you, you are genuinely displaying some psychocomatic stuff.

For the love of all that is Unholy and Hidden in the Dark - The Spelling thing was a Joke which I tried to clearly preface with my lack of caring about such things. The small typo just made me think of something funny. Live a little - try smiling.

Your words caused me to assume - You didn't make me assume. It was still my assumption, and a wrong one. Should I say that whole "assume makes an ass of me" thing to cheer you up a bit?

My on-point observation about the Lore and how these things work is once again flat-out ignored. At his point, it's not even an argument - It's just a contest of who can say "you're wrong" in the most creative way while not paying attention to the other person's side. You win that one.

Also... Go Vehk yourself with that Vivec comment.
...And, I'm even less of a "man" than that floaty gold'n'blue jerkwad is.

I've given up on trying to argue lore with you because I've agreed to disagree which you simply wont. I'm not feeding the troll anymore.

And uh...you act just like that gold and blue jerkwad. Lies, within lies, that you both believe and dont. It'd be incredible under different circumstances.

You have your view of the lore, I have mine. Let it be, man. Stop trying to shame people into silence.

I'm still not sure what "Lies" I ever said - But you don't need to bother backing up that claim.

I've never tried to Shame you or anyone in to silence.

Slander cuts deep and both ways. I at least admitted I was wrong about your motivations and perspective, and that I got the wrong idea from what you said (Or more aptly took the wrong idea) - You refuse to give an inch and even consider that you might have the wrong idea about where I'm coming from.

As you said - I'll let it be. This has gone too wrong and we're both starting to look like fools here.
...But seriously, stop calling me "man"... Please? It's probably just a different vernacular than I'm used to, but it really doesn't sit well with me.

Doctordarkspawn

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@WakeYourGhost Nobody wants the 9th era example. Your projecting.

As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.

Said it once, will say it again. It's just resistance to change, and given the few of you still arguing are parroting the same thing over and over, you dont have any ironclad proof races simply cannot change, cannot evolve, cannot deviate from the norm. Only sith deal in absolutes.

Projecting what? It was a random comment in a list of Random Things that came to my head first when I thought of "change"

Here are the points you ignored -
Your racial traits don't stop you from being a badass supermage or a sword-lord. They may not line up with it, but it doesn't prevent you from becoming these things.
The races are descendant from Gods and Mythical Beings who passed on their traits to these races - Some of these Same Gods still shape the lives of these races, and keep their souls infused with the nature they favor.
Evolution is a long process that comes over thousands on thousands of years, and still wouldn't be a significant factor here.

A Khajiit can no more change their racial Traits than they can change their fur.

If you were asking for different races with different traits, that is one thing - Like the hinted-at-but-never-talked-about-again variants of Khajiit that could be an alternate race.
There are types of Khajiit that look nearly like Man or Mer - And there are types of Khajiit who look more like Senches.
You want different stats, look no further than THE *** LORE. Find out what alternatives there actually are in said lore instead of just going with the idea that we should have a pick-your-own bonus system or alternatives for specific races because people want a Redguard that looks like an Altmer.

I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind.

You want more options, ask for more races - There are plenty to *** choose from in the Lore.
You want your Altmer to have Stamina passives because you've seen one use a sword - Go roll in puddles across Black Marsh until you catch the Knahaten Flu.

1. Most of the races are descendnats from gods and mythical beings. The notible exceptions to these are the Betmer who were not at all near the other two.

Going to skip the rest of that section as that is all un-confirmable fluff, and is irrelevent.

"A Khajiti can no more change their racial traits than they can change their fur". Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.

This quote, though, is all I needed to see.

"I gave plenty of examples why your ideas and the OPs ideas are frankly stupid - Your incessant petty desire to have tiny irrelevant stat bonuses above all else has made you blind."

Translation: "You didn't subscribe to my view, you want something I dont think you should have, I'm hear to beat you to a pulp."

Greedy, resistant to change, unfit to consult. Thanks for playing. The lore does not back you nearly as much as you would like to believe and you continue to cherry pick from it in a fashion that suggests to me you dont understand it in the slightest.

We'll have to agree to disagree. We are at an impasse.
I've referenced Lore-facts, I've stayed in line with previous games, and I've even given more in-depth citation.
You've just said "I want it!" over and over again.

It doesn't make a difference if you aren't able to see things from any point of view outside of your own.
Perhaps I'm being "inflexible", but it's only because any argument anyone makes is just rebuked with "you're no fun! I want my way now!".

Agree to disagree is fine. But dont lie about my position again. I've pointed out the various inconsistancies in your little facts and the fact the games have a unreliable narrator.

This is why your unfit to consult, you'll lie about anyone until you get what you want. Agree to disagree, fine. But stop with the lies.

I haven't seen any "inconsistencies" you've pointed out, and I havn't seen any "unreliable narrator" established.
Your position is a desire for statistical advantages outside of the normal and well-established racial system because you want your Waifu (Or Husbandu) to be a little stronger at your OTP of Race, Class, and Attributes.

I have nothing to gain here, so I won't "get what I want", and I have little to no motive to lie.
We know they won't change the Racial passives - It's been brought up a thousand times before.
My entire complain is pretending that these changes somehow fit with the Lore and Story in any meaningful fashion.

Don't twist me in to some manipulative dark villain trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the masses just so you can feel your argument has a stronger base through the glory of defiant opposition to a force of oppression.
Calling something a Lie doesn't actually make it a Lie.
Calling someone a Liar doesn't actually make them a Liar.

Except your acting manipulative.

1. I've never said 'let me have my way'.

2. I've never said 'your no fun'.

I've argued that races simply produce people who dont conform to the steriotype once and a while and you've simply not accepted that. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. Then you throw around aspersions about "Waifu" whatever the hell that is and I get very angry because it's clear your trying to put together a narrative. Your trying to make me out to be something I'm not and I'll call it what it is: Slander.

I've tried to argue the point as best I'm able but what I wont tollerate is misrepresenation and lies. What you want is for people to shut up and stop discussing an issue you think isn't a problem, and you'll use any means to do that.

Own up to the mistake, take the hit, and stop. Take responsibility for your actions.

Hyperbole - the things I put in "quotes" tend to be Hyperbole.
My argument to that has been that someone not conforming to that stereotype wouldn't have different passives - They would just overcome their racial predispositions and become something different.

Waifu - Perhaps that term is used more commonly in other communities to refer to a well constructed female (husbandu - Male) character. It's a comical term to lighten tension, not an insult.


All of that out of the way - I don't care if people talk about it or shut up. I want them to actually consider the people who aren't power-gamers who want to keep the integrity of the Lore, precedents, and story.
I also want people to stop calling their personal Build Support Passives "Lore Friendly" and stop trying to hammer that point home with meaningless drivel about how some Altmer use Swords.
Fact is - I could make (And have made) a Nord Mage that can do just as fine as an Altmer Mage. My DPS is a few points lower, my resistance if a few points higher. My sustain isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible, either.

I'm a freaking rollplayer playing an non optimal race for my build, I couldn't give a flying buggery about build optimization. I'm arguing it from a lore perspective and I've been doing so since I entered the thread. Agree to disagree, fine. But again with the misrepresentation and the -narrative- man. Is it compulsory? Can you not stop yourself?

...Okay, I've ignored the spelling thus far because I'm not bothered by spelling or grammar issues - Not everyone has english for a first language, some people type fast and don't double check, some people are on phones, some people just aren't great at it...
But this - Rollplayer... I'm imagining someone going in to a dungeon and rolling past every single enemy, every boss, and just going for Distance and Speed - Nothing matters past the Roll! (Maybe with Morihaus to go bowling?)

Okay, I've made an assumption about your reasonings. I admit it. That is an oversight - I simply couldn't see any reason past Min-Maxing and stat-jacking to do this stuff.
That being said - You've argued from a "Lore" perspective while claiming "Lore" is just code for "can't Change". Your own arguments have brought about my assumptions.

If you want to argue from a Lore Perspective - Keep in mind, even the most die-hard blade master in the Elder Scrolls can cast a few basic life-saving spells. If that Blade-master was an Altmer, they would still be roughly as good as a Redguard, yet they would also be a bit better at supporting magicka.

If a Nord becomes the most powerful mage in the world, I'm arguing it isn't because they were born with different Traits from other Nords. It's because they gained that power over a life time. They still start as a Nord, but they end their lives going beyond their "humble" origin. Their born-in racial traits are the same - Their skills and talents they learned over their life are the only thing different.

And now your going on about my spelling. You just cant stop yourself, can you?

You keep twisting it to where I apparently made you assume all this. Vivec would be proud man.

I'm done trying to argue with you, you are genuinely displaying some psychocomatic stuff.

For the love of all that is Unholy and Hidden in the Dark - The Spelling thing was a Joke which I tried to clearly preface with my lack of caring about such things. The small typo just made me think of something funny. Live a little - try smiling.

Your words caused me to assume - You didn't make me assume. It was still my assumption, and a wrong one. Should I say that whole "assume makes an ass of me" thing to cheer you up a bit?

My on-point observation about the Lore and how these things work is once again flat-out ignored. At his point, it's not even an argument - It's just a contest of who can say "you're wrong" in the most creative way while not paying attention to the other person's side. You win that one.

Also... Go Vehk yourself with that Vivec comment.
...And, I'm even less of a "man" than that floaty gold'n'blue jerkwad is.

I've given up on trying to argue lore with you because I've agreed to disagree which you simply wont. I'm not feeding the troll anymore.

And uh...you act just like that gold and blue jerkwad. Lies, within lies, that you both believe and dont. It'd be incredible under different circumstances.

You have your view of the lore, I have mine. Let it be, man. Stop trying to shame people into silence.

I'm still not sure what "Lies" I ever said - But you don't need to bother backing up that claim.

I've never tried to Shame you or anyone in to silence.

Slander cuts deep and both ways. I at least admitted I was wrong about your motivations and perspective, and that I got the wrong idea from what you said (Or more aptly took the wrong idea) - You refuse to give an inch and even consider that you might have the wrong idea about where I'm coming from.

As you said - I'll let it be. This has gone too wrong and we're both starting to look like fools here.
...But seriously, stop calling me "man"... Please? It's probably just a different vernacular than I'm used to, but it really doesn't sit well with me.

That's rich. I had to pull teeth to get that admission, you've blatently insulted me twice and you have the freaking audacity to ask that I not use 'man'? After continuing the narrative against me in the same post?

No way man. You get what you give. You gave hostility and un-cooperativeness. You get the same.

Tommy_The_Gun

IMHO it would be better to have racial passives "morphs" instead of having a different race types as OP sugested. That could simply work as a regular skill morph but instead of skill it would be passive. So when you reach rank III of a racial passive you will be able to pick one of two morphs (magicka or stamina). So if you are a khajiit you will be able to pick a morph that converts 8% weapon crit to a 8% spell crit. Or if you are an Argonian you will be able to pick a morph that converts 3% max magicka to 3% max stamina etc.
Of course - it would require some balancing as some stamina races might be super OP as their magicka variants and vice versa.

TheShadowScout

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Yeah I'm not going to respond to any of the quotes, I'ma just say, there's no point in responding to the greedy or narrow minded.

Agreed, especiually those greedy enough to want to cherry-pick their passives and too narrow minded to see how that would mess with elder scrolls setting, yes?

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Lore" is code for peoples delicate sensibilities reguarding change.

You -really- don't pay attention, do you?
I am quite happy with change. As long as its a good change that does not throw away the nifty things in the elder scrolls setting. And the established racial differences are a good thing, making the setting more interesting. Now, -how- those are represented is debatable, and there I am quite open to change, as I stated before... and I have been on record arguing for loads of changes in various way.

But -change- needs to be thought over and considered, or it ends up change for the worse. Which is why we argue about changes here on the forums... and frankly, your arguments so far seem to have been flimsy repeats "but they have warriors/mages too, so let us cherry-pick passives" and little else...

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I have yet to see one person successfully prove to me that it breaks lore, as it is currently written. As it stands, we have multiple examples of members of a race who do not conform to the tallents those races traditionally show...

And you keep ignoring the fact that one has nothing to do with the other!
Racial traits are one thing.
Attributes and level and general skills are another.

But that does not fit your greedy "let me have custum passives" narrative, does it now...

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

...but you keep parroting the same thing, and it isn't enough.

Right back atcha!

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As I've gone through, the games have predicent where people attain a level of mastery their race is not pre-disposed to. Or a level of timidness their race is not pre-disposed to. Also, people cant be born other places? Find they like other cultures better? Half the NPC's in this game are proof of that.

And that would be a good place to say that if we started talking about leaving -racial- passives alone and adding some sort of -cultural- passives as well, which then -would- be freely selectable depending on your characters backstory, this would be a decent argument for it.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And as I keep saying whenever this comes up, instead of asking them to throw out a part of the TES lore to cater to gamers, maybe think of what other options there could be. Not changing something, but maybe adding something?

I keep suggesting "background passives", that can be done -in addition- to the racial ones... things to reflect a characters birthplace, upbringing, life before the adventuring career... like:

...someone who grew up in skyrim might have a bit of extra cold resistance from being used to it, someone who grew up in black marsh might have a bit of extra disease resistance from making it through adult age there, someone who grew up in vvardenfell might have a bit of fire resistance from living near the ashlands and someone who grew up in valenwood might have some extra sneakyness from picking up forester skills as a kid;

...someone who grew up in a noble household surrounded by tutors and with access to a good library might have a leg up in magica, while someone who grew up helping the family business as commoner might have gained some extra stamina, and someone who grew up with exiles out in the wilds might gain a bit of extra toughness;

...someone who was a mystic scholar before adventuring might gain some spell resistance, somene who was a skilled worker might get a crafting bonus, and someone who was a petty criminal might get a pickpocket bonus;

...and so on...

...there could even be negative perks associated with this... the bookish scholar might get a penalty to vendor prices due to lack of haggling skills while the child of exiles might get increased bounty gain because the city guard has prejudices, or whatever...

Each on its own should be less then any racial perk... but they would make up for it by being freely selectable (though they might require "any race, any alliance" unlock for selecting non-alliance birthplaces I guess).

Oh, seems I did that already, but I guess some people only read what they want to see, huh?

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Cherrypicking lore dont work when you debate someone who has an actual understanding of it.

...which is why you seem to have such trouble here, I am guessing...

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Well, for one, the only one saying that their born stamina inclined is you. There's plenty of examples to the contrary.

And once again, it seems you keep trying to sell us attributes as racial traits.

The racial traits are a -predisposition- for one or another thing. They decide if someone finds it easier to follow one path or another; but do not preclude anyone from ignoring that and following a path they are not racially predisposed towards. Humanoid beings after all are not ants, born to be forever locked into their position within the hive, right?

The attributes are an individuals physical, well, attributes. Those decide who is strong or who is smart, who is tough and who is not. Which in turn decides who might excel at being a warrior or wizard... if they put in the effort to reach the higher levels.

The two have nothing to do with each other. Heck, it would even be possible to make a mismatched character - put all your attribute points into magica, and then use only stamina skills, but who would be that crazy?

...okay so maybe Ainz Ooal Gown would...

Tonturri wrote: »

I won't say racials are gamebreaking, because they're not...but I think they scale FAR too well...

And that is a valid point, the racial passives should -not- give you a 5-10% bonus on top of everything, they should give you a big leg up at the start, but become less and less effective as your level advances until in the end, they are neglectable in effectiveness.
And if we stopped talking about everyone cherry-picking their custom passives and started arguing about some better way to reflect the racial perks in the game system, well, that would be a change I'd argue for instead of against!

dovakiin5574

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The racial traits are a -predisposition- for one or another thing. They decide if someone finds it easier to follow one path or another; but do not preclude anyone from ignoring that and following a path they are not racially predisposed towards. Humanoid beings after all are not ants, born to be forever locked into their position within the hive, right?

Exactly and like humans of all races, are not "locked" into specific roles and types. Meaning [certain colored] people are not ALWAYS smarter (irl example, no racism intended, example given for clarity). Just because you are a race, saying they can only do certain things is racist even in TES Lore.

dovakiin5574

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

IMHO it would be better to have racial passives "morphs" instead of having a different race types as OP sugested. That could simply work as a regular skill morph but instead of skill it would be passive. So when you reach rank III of a racial passive you will be able to pick one of two morphs (magicka or stamina). So if you are a khajiit you will be able to pick a morph that converts 8% weapon crit to a 8% spell crit. Or if you are an Argonian you will be able to pick a morph that converts 3% max magicka to 3% max stamina etc.
Of course - it would require some balancing as some stamina races might be super OP as their magicka variants and vice versa.

I really like this idea too!

Doctordarkspawn

@TheShadowScout

More narrative making from the other side of the arguement. I'll respond to what I feel like but after this, do us both a favor and leave me alone.

1. Yes, how those differences are represented takes different forms in each of the games. ZOS has been making a effort to go ahed and do that without affecting the races viability. We've seen them try to do that with passives like cutpurse for the Khajiit, Opportunist for Bretons, and so fourth. But quite frankly given the other representations in universe which are neutral bonuses or straight skill increases, what says we couldn't represent our life before with magicka or stamina passives?

High rock is a predominantly magicka based race. So why are there numerous knightly orders dedicated to martial combat? Why does house Redoran exist? Why does the standing Marines exist from Auridon? People dont fit into neat little boxes, as much as you'd like them to. And reguardless of your continued attempts to ignore the fact, some Altmer just are not good at spellcasting. There's a Argonian in the first zone of EP who says they just cant get ahold of casting simple spells despite her race geting a bonus to max Magicka! It's right there, you just dont like it. And that's what it comes down to, and will continue to come down to.

2. One does not have nothing to do with the other. Prodegies exist in all fields and forms of study from all races and walks of life, something you outright refuse to acknowledge.

Just about everything else is TLDR and narrative building, stuff I've never said, assumptions about me, ect. S'just you trying to push a narrative. So that's all you get. Now stop trying to shame people into silence.

WakeYourGhost

TheShadowScout wrote: »

-change- needs to be thought over and considered, or it ends up change for the worse. Which is why we argue about changes here on the forums...

if we started talking about leaving -racial- passives alone and adding some sort of -cultural- passives as well, which then -would- be freely selectable depending on your characters backstory,

And if we stopped talking about everyone cherry-picking their custom passives and started arguing about some better way to reflect the racial perks in the game system, well, that would be a change I'd argue for instead of against!

Mega-Point 1 - Exactly. If we don't talk about it, if we don't have a conversation, and if we don't TRY to see from one another's sides, we get nothing.

Ultra-Point 2 - Cultural Passives sound like an interesting way to deal with this while still keeping the races the same. Not sure it would work in practice, but... Hey, wait - You already talked about that and no one even gave an inch for it. Huh.. Wonder what they really want, then, if not to feel the effects of slightly different cultured Characters to make them feel unique?

Super-Point 3 - Teach me your ways... ;.; I mean.. I agree entirely. There are plenty of ways to reflect racial traits and passives without negatively impacting Lore or Gameplay.

In closing -

TheShadowScout wrote: »

You're my hero, Senpai!!!

Doctordarkspawn

@WakeYourGhost @TheShadowScout

Okay olive branch time.

You said something about 'cultural passives'. Why dont we go over that again, because I dont remember seeing this. Maybe it got burried under a wall of text. But hey, I'm open to the idea. Why dont one of you make me a pitch?

WakeYourGhost

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The racial traits are a -predisposition- for one or another thing. They decide if someone finds it easier to follow one path or another; but do not preclude anyone from ignoring that and following a path they are not racially predisposed towards. Humanoid beings after all are not ants, born to be forever locked into their position within the hive, right?

Exactly and like humans of all races, are not "locked" into specific roles and types. Meaning [certain colored] people are not ALWAYS smarter (irl example, no racism intended, example given for clarity). Just because you are a race, saying they can only do certain things is racist even in TES Lore.

Your Characters are not "locked" in to specific Roles and Types based on their racial Traits either.
You make what you will of your character.
Extra Stamina and Stamina sustain can actually help a Mage - Even the traits you don't want may help in some fashion. Just an example.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

IMHO it would be better to have racial passives "morphs" instead of having a different race types as OP sugested. That could simply work as a regular skill morph but instead of skill it would be passive. So when you reach rank III of a racial passive you will be able to pick one of two morphs (magicka or stamina). So if you are a khajiit you will be able to pick a morph that converts 8% weapon crit to a 8% spell crit. Or if you are an Argonian you will be able to pick a morph that converts 3% max magicka to 3% max stamina etc.
Of course - it would require some balancing as some stamina races might be super OP as their magicka variants and vice versa.

I didn't notice this earlier..
It actually... Seems alright. I mean, in limited applications, maybe? It's an interesting idea, at least.

TheShadowScout

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

More narrative making from the other side of the arguement. I'll respond to what I feel like but after this, do us both a favor and leave me alone.

I will not be silenced, I will reserve the right to respond with my point of view when others try to push some argument I disagree with.
Also, if you name someone in a post, you are not leaving -them- alone, you know...

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Now stop trying to shame people into silence.

...when did I -ever- tell someone to be silent? Or to "leave me alone" when they were arguing against me?

As sone may have noticed, I do enjoy the occasional argument, after all, I am not always right myself, and arguments do sometimes let one see the flaws in ones thinking when someone from the other side of the argument makes their case... and even helps bring up new ideas, occasionally.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Okay olive branch time.

You said something about 'cultural passives'. Why dont we go over that again, because I dont remember seeing this. Maybe it got burried under a wall of text. But hey, I'm open to the idea. Why dont one of you make me a pitch?

Agreed, let's quit the personal remarks.

As I had been saying, here and in some similar threads before, I for one would love to see the racial passives left to reflect the racial perks in the lore (possibly changed to have less of an endgame impact, but leaving the -racial- flavor), and just -add- new passives for our characters to invest to that!

We have passives for the characters race.
But there could be more, additional passives that -would- be freely selectable depending on character backstory.

Like I mentioned... passives reflecting where a character was born, how they grew up, and what they did before they became involved with all the events of ESO... I mean, all characters had a life before becoming a sacrifice for mannimarco and getting all heroic (or shipwrecking on vvardenfell if you start with the other tutorial), right?

So, I would imagine, one passive for birthplace, with something reflecting the region... like a lesser version of the nord cold resistance for other people born and raised in skyrim, or a lesser version of dumner fire resistance for others born and growing up in the shadow of red mountain, etc.
It probably should not be a perk for every single map, but one per "region" - skyrim, morrowind, high rock, alik'r, valenwood, elsweyr, etc. Not even sure what perk it could be for some of them, but... the general concept is good methinks!

Then another passive for the type of childhood they had... like mentioned, those growing up as the children of nobles with access to a library and good tutoring might have an advantage in scholarly pursuits, and thus gain some magica perk, while those growing up with commoner workers and help in the family business might gain some stamina perk from all the work, while those growing up as exiles or outcasts of some sort (no matter if breton street rat, nord mountain man or dunmer ashlander) might gain some perk in heatlth/toughness...

And finally there could be one more passive for their adult life pre-heroics. Reflecting what they did for a living before becoming all adventurery (though I guess being an adventurer back then as well would be an viable option - but so would librarian, carpenter, ratcatcher or blacksmith...). The possibilities here are endless, both for combat related perks, and non-combat perks.

Also, I had been thinking about the idea of making some of those passives come with a drawback of sorts... like, mentioned, anyone known as outcast might face higher bounty for offenses as the city guards prejudices come into play (compare the situation of sinti/roma in history) while others might have a lack in some skills (so for example a "barbarian warrior" combat perk might give you a crafting penalty, or a "bookish scholar" magica perk may give you a haggling penalty, or something along those lines...

Doctordarkspawn

@TheShadowScout

I think that's honestly as good as you could get from the system that you'd propose. It might also help Hybrids along a little bit.

Though honestly I'm fine with just that much. Some simple stuff, like max magicka, ect. That's all anyone is really asking for, anyway.

(And as far as the previous comments go, again. You get what you give. You've been nothing but hostile, and while I'm appreciative of the fact your trying to change that, it does not make the past few changes go away. You act hostile, you get hostile. Hopefully that can stop now.)

TheShadowScout

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I think that's honestly as good as you could get from the system that you'd propose. It might also help Hybrids along a little bit.

Though honestly I'm fine with just that much. Some simple stuff, like max magicka, ect. That's all anyone is really asking for, anyway.

Agreed.
Hmmm...
...another thought...
...if this was taken up by ZOS, it also would be a viable option to shift all "increase max" type perks from racial to cultural, and replace them with "recovery increase" on the racial level... that way, racial perks would help the sustain, but not the total power, which if it was centered in the cultural, would then be selectable... that way the racial passives would beccome less "must have" for certain builds (since all kinds of characters can gain from better recovery, even for their non-primary attributes)

Doctordarkspawn

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I think that's honestly as good as you could get from the system that you'd propose. It might also help Hybrids along a little bit.

Though honestly I'm fine with just that much. Some simple stuff, like max magicka, ect. That's all anyone is really asking for, anyway.

Agreed.
Hmmm...
...another thought...
...if this was taken up by ZOS, it also would be a viable option to shift all "increase max" type perks from racial to cultural, and replace them with "recovery increase" on the racial level... that way, racial perks would help the sustain, but not the total power, which if it was centered in the cultural, would then be selectable... that way the racial passives would beccome less "must have" for certain builds (since all kinds of characters can gain from better recovery, even for their non-primary attributes)

Can we just have this? I'd like to just have this. And not cutpurse.

(5% pickpocket chance? Throw me a -bone- man.)

WakeYourGhost

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Okay olive branch time.

You can take your Olive Branch and shove it... Uhh.. Wait, is wood a common recyclable, or is it all Landfill trash? Likely best to just convert it to compost.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

As I had been saying, here and in some similar threads before, I for one would love to see the racial passives left to reflect the racial perks in the lore (possibly changed to have less of an endgame impact, but leaving the -racial- flavor), and just -add- new passives for our characters to invest to that!

We have passives for the characters race.
But there could be more, additional passives that -would- be freely selectable depending on character backstory.
....[redacted for brevity]....

I've seen ideas like this somewhere before.. Another game or something.. A few games, actually.

The general idea that you have a handful of choices in several categories -

Homeland - (Resist + Dmg bonus?)
[Example : Morrowind gives Fire Resist and/or tiny fire damage bonus ~ Skyrim for Ice ~ Summerset for small Magicka Bonus]
Upbringing - (Regen and/or other unique passives?)
[Example : Warrior gives some kind of Stam regen bonus? ~ Mage gives some kind of Mag regen bonus?]
Vocation? - (Direct Main-stats?)
[Example : Soldier would give you more HP ~ Explorer might give more Stam? ]
{I would have more thought out ideas, but it's short notice}

or various different ideas spun from those concepts. A system by which you can can small natural passives that have a small effect on gameplay and give more unique flavor to your character?

That, along with a combination of "Tommy_The_Gun"s idea of Morphable passives (Within a limited level) and "Tonturri"s idea of Flat Bonuses instead of scaling bonuses - It might make for a much more customize-able system that still fits in with the lore and has a greater reflection of the Culture and Background of your character.
Most MMOs seem to have a way to establish the "background" of your character to really make them more than a general Blank Slate.

Amoureros

I only want to play as a Bosmer for every roll... I wish there's racial polymorphs.
Bosmer forever!!!

JaXx64

and dont forget to offer me 14 free coins , for change the race of all my char .


ty

WakeYourGhost

Amoureros wrote: »

I only want to play as a Bosmer for every roll... I wish there's racial polymorphs.
Bosmer forever!!!

Max Stam and Stam Regen can be useful for Magicka Classes too (Break free more often? Block sometimes? Roll until you puke?)
Stealth bonus? Situational - YMMV. Still, you could find a use on any build.

Best part? 10% Less fall damage! Amazing! Works well for anyone!!

Peekachu99

I would like to see them retune the existing passives into more beneficial, percent based figures across the board. Not this, though. As it stands Argonians, High Elves and Redguards are simply the best pick for most classes—especially if you PVP.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Tonturri My Bosmer will gain approximately 200 magicka regen and 3-4k magicka if I switched her to an Altmer.

For your bosmer to gain 200 regen from the 9% regen passive that high elfs have you would need to have a BASE regen of 2222. There is absolutely no way you have this short of a lich proc.

She would, as a result of the change, lose about...140, 150 stamina regen and 573 stamina. On my pvp stamina builds, such passives are worth about...300-400 stamina regen and 1.5-2k stamina?

Same here, to get 400 regen out of the 21% regen passive you would need a base regen of 1905. I have no idea how you would get that on a Stam build and still be able to kill someone.

Skander

Bretons are a magicka race. Don't shapechange them.
Just buff their least passive a little

JaXx64

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Tonturri My Bosmer will gain approximately 200 magicka regen and 3-4k magicka if I switched her to an Altmer.

For your bosmer to gain 200 regen from the 9% regen passive that high elfs have you would need to have a BASE regen of 2222. There is absolutely no way you have this short of a lich proc.

She would, as a result of the change, lose about...140, 150 stamina regen and 573 stamina. On my pvp stamina builds, such passives are worth about...300-400 stamina regen and 1.5-2k stamina?

Same here, to get 400 regen out of the 21% regen passive you would need a base regen of 1905. I have no idea how you would get that on a Stam build and still be able to kill someone.

1905 in stamina build is nothing lol .

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

JaXx64 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Tonturri My Bosmer will gain approximately 200 magicka regen and 3-4k magicka if I switched her to an Altmer.

For your bosmer to gain 200 regen from the 9% regen passive that high elfs have you would need to have a BASE regen of 2222. There is absolutely no way you have this short of a lich proc.

She would, as a result of the change, lose about...140, 150 stamina regen and 573 stamina. On my pvp stamina builds, such passives are worth about...300-400 stamina regen and 1.5-2k stamina?

Same here, to get 400 regen out of the 21% regen passive you would need a base regen of 1905. I have no idea how you would get that on a Stam build and still be able to kill someone.

1905 in stamina build is nothing lol .

Do you understand how percentage amps work in this game? Let me show you.

percent amps, like the 20% from pots and the 9% from being a high elf do not stack like that. they are additive, not multiplicative.

my warden healer is a nord, he runs 2k regen but that is after all percent amps. base would be 514(base)+124(set)+124(set)+319(food)+300(atro with 4 6.5% divines)= 1381 then all other percent amps are calculated off that and then added to it. like Flourish, 12% adds 166, Recovery from light armor, 24% cause i have on 6 light adds 331, 14% from cp adds 193, bringing the total to 2071. 9% more would only be 124 more regen.

so what happens is that the 1381 is the BASE regen and then all the other percent amps are ADDED up.
like this



Sub in serpant for Stam in the above calulation.

so the it would look like this, (514+124+124+319+300)* (36%+14%)= 690.5 and that would be ADDED to 1381, which then would be 2071 , with the 9% from a high elf, it would look like this, (514+124+124+319+300)* (45%+14%) = 814.79 , which then would be 2195, which is just a 6% increase in regen from 2071. come on people this is not hard math. it only gets worse the more percent regen you add.

with pots it would be (514+124+124+319+300)* (65%+14%) = 1091 and added to 1381 is 2472, only a 12% increase in regen. do you see what i mean yet?

So you say 1900 regen on a Stam build is nothing, show me how you get 1900 BASE regen, Without using any percentage amplifiers.

HatchetHaro

While I appreciate this new proposed system, Argonians would still be shafted by this in terms of PvE damage. Nords too. Redguards and Khajiiti would still rule, except now in both stamina and magicka damage. This does nothing to help the races that are already underpowered.

You can't just take the original racial passives and copy it over to the other resource, especially when the originals are already imbalanced as they are. It's never that simple.

Sorry to say, but this suggestion is neither comprehensive nor well-researched.

Feanor

No matter what you change there will naturally always be a best choice. People will complain about having to choose, not about the choice to take.