It's time to add a real counter to shields

SaKGEE

Hello,

I am not one to usually make “complaint” threads, bbut the situation in Cyrodiil is really uuntenable. The magicka sorcerer deffense mechanics are just way too overpowered compared to other classes that rely on healing rather than shielding to sustain and survive.

We have a CP passive that debufffs healing and health regen, as well as numerous sets such as Durok’s bane and Fassala that work towardss the same goal. This, in my opinion is a very good option to coounter healbots and tanky builds in general.

However, when I see sorrcerers jumping around like the coolest monkeys in the jungle stacking 20k shields on average (which basically equates to a 20k additional and UNCRITABLE health bar), it’s just accepted without critique. And when I ask a relevant question like: how do you ccounter it? I’m just being told to git gud by some pathetic losers, or else to slot Shieldbreaker. As a magicka warden…

Shieldbreaker isn’t a solution. It is a small and dirty band-aid applied to the gapping and bleeding wound that is the overperformance of mag sorcs in Cyrodiil.
Why should I need to slot an arguably underperforming stamina set to deal with shielldstacking monkeys? Why doesn’t the Befoul CP reduce shield size and performance instead?

Other unfabulous (and no doubt sorc main) detractors might ssay that you can get a sorcerer out of resources to stop them from shielding. To this I say, you can’t get a good sorc out of resources. Not with skills like streak, dark deal, and restoration staff ulti in their kit.

I think the solution I propose is a very reasonable one. Make Befoul reduce shield size too, or else augment the damage they take.

What do you think?

Mic1007

SaKGEE wrote: »

To this I say, you can’t get a good sorc out of resources.

Took you long enough to get to the real issue. Nerfing shields will not affect these guys in the slightest. They'll just adapt and go back to shield stacking like they have done with every other nerf, while the ones that actually use shields normally will end up being the ones actually hurt by this change.

Psyonico

There's a CP that cuts through Shields.

Also, in b4 Nerf Sorcs

Goshua

I think their shield should be health based (because I main a templar and feel ripped off)

Tommy_The_Gun

I might be doing something wrong but... lets say - to counter NB cloak all I need to do is to use detections pots or slot Magelight or Expert Hunter or Revealing Flare.

To counter shields you need a whole 5 pcs set. (example Shield Breaker or Knight Slayer etc.)
Question to some one more experienced than me:

Is there any other simpler way to counter shield stacking ?

Luigi_Vampa

A nerf sorc thread?



Anyway, in all seriousness, Sorcs have been nerfed quite a bit. Streak, Frags CC, shield duration... the list can go on. The problem isn't Sorcs, the problem is good players. You should see what good players can do on a Mag Warden if you want unkillable. As an above poster said, hurting shields will not be a problem for good sorcs, because they are good players. This is like when they nerfed stam regen to stop perma blocking. Did it stop perma blocking? No, it only punished people who don't set up their playstyle to permablock. Permablockers just said, "lol, hold my beer and watch this".

Ihatenightblades

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I might be doing something wrong but... lets say - to counter NB cloak all I need to do is to use detections pots or slot Magelight or Expert Hunter or Revealing Flare.

To counter shields you need a whole 5 pcs set. (example Shield Breaker or Knight Slayer etc.)
Question to some one more experienced than me:

Is there any other simpler way to counter shield stacking ?

They only last 6 seconds so if you are getting the person to spam shields over and over then you are winning the fight and should end up killing him by either draining his stam or magicka pool.

I usually cc every chance i get off cooldown so eventually they will have to wait out the stun and thats when you kill them. A mag sorc in light armor with no shield takes two hits to die lol. Just gotta CC soon as shield is wearing off and make sure they don't shield before the CC or it can save them lol.

Its annoying but its pretty fair since they cant kill a much as they used to. It used to be bad. They had shield stacking and insane burst. Still do but requires bit more skill

Ankael07

So how does this encourage sorcerers to use 1 shield in any way? It will only hurt those who doesnt shield stack. And youre the one who complains about band-aid solutions

Maryal

SaKGEE wrote: »

Hello,

I am not one to usually make “complaint” threads, bbut the situation in Cyrodiil is really uuntenable. The magicka sorcerer deffense mechanics are just way too overpowered compared to other classes that rely on healing rather than shielding to sustain and survive.

We have a CP passive that debufffs healing and health regen, as well as numerous sets such as Durok’s bane and Fassala that work towardss the same goal. This, in my opinion is a very good option to coounter healbots and tanky builds in general.

However, when I see sorrcerers jumping around like the coolest monkeys in the jungle stacking 20k shields on average (which basically equates to a 20k additional and UNCRITABLE health bar), it’s just accepted without critique. And when I ask a relevant question like: how do you ccounter it? I’m just being told to git gud by some pathetic losers, or else to slot Shieldbreaker. As a magicka warden…

Shieldbreaker isn’t a solution. It is a small and dirty band-aid applied to the gapping and bleeding wound that is the overperformance of mag sorcs in Cyrodiil.
Why should I need to slot an arguably underperforming stamina set to deal with shielldstacking monkeys? Why doesn’t the Befoul CP reduce shield size and performance instead?

Other unfabulous (and no doubt sorc main) detractors might ssay that you can get a sorcerer out of resources to stop them from shielding. To this I say, you can’t get a good sorc out of resources. Not with skills like streak, dark deal, and restoration staff ulti in their kit.

I think the solution I propose is a very reasonable one. Make Befoul reduce shield size too, or else augment the damage they take.

What do you think?

I like your proposal ... it sounds logical and reasonable, although I do have one small suggestion for you to consider:
The shield-reducing (befoul) debuff can only be applied as a single-target de-buff (meaning no shield-reducing AOE de-buffs).

Dojohoda

Other than the aforementioned shield breaker, the oblivion enchantment ignores shields. BTW, other classes have shields too.

Sorcs have been hit hard with the nerf hammer lately. I'm not keen on putting too many kinks in their defenses.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

1v1 they can be nigh unkillable but get a few good players and they die, sorc is harder to 1vX on, so if u nerf shields they'll be very bad spot.

RouDeR

Simple solution is to introduce diminishing returns in shield stacking.
Shield 1 applies 100%of the Value
Shield 2 Applies 50% of the Value
Shield 3 Aplies 25% of the Value

It is basicly similar with damage mitigations and resistances - the more sorces you have of mitigation the less effective they are gonna be .

xeNNNNN

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

A nerf sorc thread?



Anyway, in all seriousness, Sorcs have been nerfed quite a bit. Streak, Frags CC, shield duration... the list can go on. The problem isn't Sorcs, the problem is good players. You should see what good players can do on a Mag Warden if you want unkillable. As an above poster said, hurting shields will not be a problem for good sorcs, because they are good players. This is like when they nerfed stam regen to stop perma blocking. Did it stop perma blocking? No, it only punished people who don't set up their playstyle to permablock. Permablockers just said, "lol, hold my beer and watch this".

I should point out that the nerfs you did mention were rather spaced apart, especially streak and the removal of CC from frags.

The game has evolved significantly in terms of resources and management, skills and sets and over all damage and durability of builds. When trying too rebuke a point to an extent regarding any nerfs please remember to consider the state of the game and the distance between the nerfs you talk about. Because frankly, theres a huge difference between sorcs from the old streak days to sorcs now especially in power level but that goes for all classes, should also note that basically lich makes the streak increased cost redundant for anyone playing sorc with a brain.

Lets face it the only real counter too shields is actually shield breaker and that in of itself isnt all that great half the time and frankly nobody wants too wear SB just to counter the absurd amount of sorcs running around. Its just bad for the game and has been for a while and hell even magblades and magdk's and so fourth running around with harness and this is coming from a magblade main.

Scenario: You're 1v1ing a sorc, you get him low, you're about too finish him off, you know hes got flame reach and so you pop immo pots. You go in to executioner and low and behold he shields up and streaks away then turns around shields still up, healing off crit flame reach, frag, Mage wrath explosion proc, Implosion proc. You are DEAD.

Do you not see the problem there? Yes there are ways too deal with sorcs but there are ridiculously few ways too counter sorcs with massive shields. You can of course argue through CP and clever play and blah blah but we all know that ultimately a good player on a sorc vs a good player on say a stam DK, the sorc will most likely win just purely due to their shields amongst other things like the obnoxious implosion passive which hits ridiculously hard. In contrast too other classes, sorc has had the least nerfs. Remember they tried to nerf curse too bring sorc burst damage down a bit? Turned around rather quick didn't it? (nobody wants to bring that up do they hmmm).


Inb4 all magsorc mains flock to the forum to decree how unfair this thread is and how nerfed they already are........(you know as if they arent the least nerfed class since launch? excluding warden as its relatively new).

Hurtfan

yes please nerf my main even more, please please please...

Someone already mentioned it, if the sorc is shield stacking, you are winning...you will drain their stam or magicka sooner or later and then can finish them off...

King_Thelon

They young rabble amongst themselves:
I saw what I could not reap!
I sowed where I could not gather!
Woe is to me, for I have fallen amongst the blob.

The elder looks at the younglings.
But feels little pity.
For the young lack not skill or courage,
But see these obscured within their blob.

ccfeeling

So u can kill all classes but sorc at this moment, sounds good.

Lynx7386

Use the shield breaker set and the cp star that increases damage against shields.

Shields are already cut by 50% in PvP and do not apply the players resistances or mitigation while the shield is active.

The problem isn't a lack of counters, its players who don't want to give up their damage sets or champion points in order to use those counters.

OdinForge

ZOS could delete the sorc class and people would still be making threads about them.

JobooAGS

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Use the shield breaker set and the cp star that increases damage against shields.

Shields are already cut by 50% in PvP and do not apply the players resistances or mitigation while the shield is active.

The problem isn't a lack of counters, its players who don't want to give up their damage sets or champion points in order to use those counters.

Buff sorcs - Stamblade main

Luigi_Vampa

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

A nerf sorc thread?



Anyway, in all seriousness, Sorcs have been nerfed quite a bit. Streak, Frags CC, shield duration... the list can go on. The problem isn't Sorcs, the problem is good players. You should see what good players can do on a Mag Warden if you want unkillable. As an above poster said, hurting shields will not be a problem for good sorcs, because they are good players. This is like when they nerfed stam regen to stop perma blocking. Did it stop perma blocking? No, it only punished people who don't set up their playstyle to permablock. Permablockers just said, "lol, hold my beer and watch this".

I should point out that the nerfs you did mention were rather spaced apart, especially streak and the removal of CC from frags.

The game has evolved significantly in terms of resources and management, skills and sets and over all damage and durability of builds. When trying too rebuke a point to an extent regarding any nerfs please remember to consider the state of the game and the distance between the nerfs you talk about. Because frankly, theres a huge difference between sorcs from the old streak days to sorcs now especially in power level but that goes for all classes, should also note that basically lich makes the streak increased cost redundant for anyone playing sorc with a brain.

Lets face it the only real counter too shields is actually shield breaker and that in of itself isnt all that great half the time and frankly nobody wants too wear SB just to counter the absurd amount of sorcs running around. Its just bad for the game and has been for a while and hell even magblades and magdk's and so fourth running around with harness and this is coming from a magblade main.

Scenario: You're 1v1ing a sorc, you get him low, you're about too finish him off, you know hes got flame reach and so you pop immo pots. You go in to executioner and low and behold he shields up and streaks away then turns around shields still up, healing off crit flame reach, frag, Mage wrath explosion proc, Implosion proc. You are DEAD.

Do you not see the problem there? Yes there are ways too deal with sorcs but there are ridiculously few ways too counter sorcs with massive shields. You can of course argue through CP and clever play and blah blah but we all know that ultimately a good player on a sorc vs a good player on say a stam DK, the sorc will most likely win just purely due to their shields amongst other things like the obnoxious implosion passive which hits ridiculously hard. In contrast too other classes, sorc has had the least nerfs. Remember they tried to nerf curse too bring sorc burst damage down a bit? Turned around rather quick didn't it? (nobody wants to bring that up do they hmmm).

Shield stacking isn't just a Sorc problem, but shields are magicka sorcs only real defense. Streak isn't anymore because it doesn't out range gap closers. You can talk about curse, but that change was to help sorc rotation in PvE (they said so in the patch notes) and all it really does is help pull nightblades out of stealth on the second burst.

Yeah, the nerfs are spread out, but they are still there. We have been taking all the special things away from classes. Mag DKs are a shadow of their former selves because they have taken a beating of nerfs every patch. It is starting to look that way for sorcs. Every patch, something gets taken away. It adds up, so unless you have more sorc buffs to talk about besides curse and pets (which are barely if ever seen on serious players in Cryodiil) then previous nerfs need to be in the discussion. Otherwise you wind up with the magicka DK. Also, remember when magicka DK was a hard counter to sorcs?

As for your 1v1 senario. I'm not going to hypothetical forum PvP with you. It is silly. I could easily say that on a stam dk you get him low, he streaks, you crit charge > fossilize > execute, but then you say, but he takes an immov lot, or any other counter. You can't forum PvP because people make mistakes and get outplayed in game. That doesn't happen when just talking about the skills.

WrathOfInnos

Sounds like somebody has never played a Sorc. Everything seems OP when you are against a pro, but it all has downsides when you try it.

LeagueTroll

Make dmg against shield cp stronger. I agree to this.

xeNNNNN

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

A nerf sorc thread?



Anyway, in all seriousness, Sorcs have been nerfed quite a bit. Streak, Frags CC, shield duration... the list can go on. The problem isn't Sorcs, the problem is good players. You should see what good players can do on a Mag Warden if you want unkillable. As an above poster said, hurting shields will not be a problem for good sorcs, because they are good players. This is like when they nerfed stam regen to stop perma blocking. Did it stop perma blocking? No, it only punished people who don't set up their playstyle to permablock. Permablockers just said, "lol, hold my beer and watch this".

I should point out that the nerfs you did mention were rather spaced apart, especially streak and the removal of CC from frags.

The game has evolved significantly in terms of resources and management, skills and sets and over all damage and durability of builds. When trying too rebuke a point to an extent regarding any nerfs please remember to consider the state of the game and the distance between the nerfs you talk about. Because frankly, theres a huge difference between sorcs from the old streak days to sorcs now especially in power level but that goes for all classes, should also note that basically lich makes the streak increased cost redundant for anyone playing sorc with a brain.

Lets face it the only real counter too shields is actually shield breaker and that in of itself isnt all that great half the time and frankly nobody wants too wear SB just to counter the absurd amount of sorcs running around. Its just bad for the game and has been for a while and hell even magblades and magdk's and so fourth running around with harness and this is coming from a magblade main.

Scenario: You're 1v1ing a sorc, you get him low, you're about too finish him off, you know hes got flame reach and so you pop immo pots. You go in to executioner and low and behold he shields up and streaks away then turns around shields still up, healing off crit flame reach, frag, Mage wrath explosion proc, Implosion proc. You are DEAD.

Do you not see the problem there? Yes there are ways too deal with sorcs but there are ridiculously few ways too counter sorcs with massive shields. You can of course argue through CP and clever play and blah blah but we all know that ultimately a good player on a sorc vs a good player on say a stam DK, the sorc will most likely win just purely due to their shields amongst other things like the obnoxious implosion passive which hits ridiculously hard. In contrast too other classes, sorc has had the least nerfs. Remember they tried to nerf curse too bring sorc burst damage down a bit? Turned around rather quick didn't it? (nobody wants to bring that up do they hmmm).

Shield stacking isn't just a Sorc problem, but shields are magicka sorcs only real defense. Streak isn't anymore because it doesn't out range gap closers. You can talk about curse, but that change was to help sorc rotation in PvE (they said so in the patch notes) and all it really does is help pull nightblades out of stealth on the second burst.

Yeah, the nerfs are spread out, but they are still there. We have been taking all the special things away from classes. Mag DKs are a shadow of their former selves because they have taken a beating of nerfs every patch. It is starting to look that way for sorcs. Every patch, something gets taken away. It adds up, so unless you have more sorc buffs to talk about besides curse and pets (which are barely if ever seen on serious players in Cryodiil) then previous nerfs need to be in the discussion. Otherwise you wind up with the magicka DK. Also, remember when magicka DK was a hard counter to sorcs?

As for your 1v1 senario. I'm not going to hypothetical forum PvP with you. It is silly. I could easily say that on a stam dk you get him low, he streaks, you crit charge > fossilize > execute, but then you say, but he takes an immov lot, or any other counter. You can't forum PvP because people make mistakes and get outplayed in game. That doesn't happen when just talking about the skills.

1) Yeah it was mostly pve, but funny how so many PvP players go so upset about it then suddenly REVERTED. Something ZoS rarely do. Nothing to do with sorcs being the most played class at all are they.

2) Yes I am aware that shield stacking is a problem across the board, but its far easier too kill say a magblade or a mag DK than it is a sorc simply due to the strength of their shields when they're spammed to begin with and like streak lich makes those costs redundant if you know what you are doing.

3) Starting too look like that for sorcs, sorc nerfs have been so spread out that the comparison would be you have a leaflet for sorcs and a book for DKs. Yes they should be talked about but not held together as if they were done a day after eachother. Especially when talking about those nerfs with players who werent around back then, its confusing for them and only muddies the water.

4) Ironically, that very scenario I gave actually plays out in cyrodil frequently I see it all the time in fact its happened to me on a number of occasions. You'd expect a zerg to take a while killing a bunch of block build templars vs shield stacking sorcs but no again, its the other way round. The templar block builds are dying quickly and the 3 sorcs on a resource who are getting zerged are just shieldstacking and streaking. The one v one situation is just tragic. I wont even bother mentioning battlegrounds mostly due to the fact that the game is balanced around cp and not non-CP but also because I would probably have to go on a rant for about 3 hours. (side note: I am not actually a zerg/blob player, I play small scale with friends, My main is actually a bombblade, secondary being stamdk/magdk). Oh and if you're not willing to budge on shields I bet we could have a good bit of banter about mage wrath explosion and implosion....im sure that conversation will be "calm".

Many times ive just sat there watching sorcs taking on other players while in stealth on my nightblade, I refuse to believe that every single time the sorc won, the players they killed were just bad or stupid or made a mistake.

Beardimus

Honestly if you are struggling with Sorcs your game hasn't updated since 2015. They really haven't been something to worry about for a patch now...

And FYI there is a CP tree to tackle shields so u sure your point there.

Since cost increases in MW the majority of Sorcs can't sustain a triple stack, and if they can't they aren't doing much else. Streak is pants as most gap closers out reach it and its costs stacking kills it.

You need a strategy to take on Sorcs, honestly they are the easier to kill, heavy armour heal bots ridiculous tank builds on the other hand have little you can do as CP added to BG shows.

Sorcs have costly deference, are telegraphed in attack and obvious counters but it's been said before. .

catalyst10e

Attack a sorc's stamina, and you'll win the fight. Have a CC and recast it every 6 seconds, force the sorc to keep breaking free until there isnt any stamina left. Once they're out of Stamina you'll see the health drop. snares are also a big help since it usually forces the sorc to use streak which is an increasingly costly move.

People often ask for nerfs because all they see on their side of the fight is what appears to be an unmoving health bar and a jumping sorc. But on the side of the sorc, the fight was probably a lot closer than you think. So as is the custom with these sorts of threads, I'll suggest you play a shield stacking sorc, to get a feel from the other side.

If a sorc is stacking its because the pressure is on, start to CC them, count (out loud if you need to) to 6 while you go through your rotation, and hit that CC again. When you see them either not break CC or try to streak away they're low on resources and you've almost won. Just keep at it and you'll get it.

Sometimes it just takes some practice. Find a sorc guildmate and do some duels with them to get used to fighting them and seeing the subtle hints they're out of resources.

KingYogi415

It’s called CC.

L2P

The_Brosteen

I say this every time theres a nerf sorc thread:

Go for it, nerf sorcs again. You'll be back asking for more sorc nerfs in due time. It will never be enough. Magic sorc has gone through a plethera of nerfs and still people complain. It's sort of hilarious.

Ragnarock41

before the *** sorc mains come here and call you bad, call you L2P,
you're right on shieldstacking being an issue .
but Its not a magsorc issue, Its a ball groups that hide behind 20k shields issue.

I would say nerf the crap out of it , then properly buff magsorcs, (and just no more OP magsorc era, it was the most disgusting thing ever) which was what they should have done in the first place. instead of nerfing shieldstacking they nerfed everything else about magsorc, now magblade took the crown because of this.

The_Brosteen

OdinForge wrote: »

ZOS could delete the sorc class and people would still be making threads about them.

Yup, pretty much

Malamar1229

What a joke....

Let me start with this game is not designed around 1v1 so the fact that you struggle on your magicka warden against mag sorcs specifically doesn't matter. Every build should have it's kryptonite.

Secondly 20k shield isn't possible unless stacking hardened ward and harness magicka together....in fact mine wouldn't even touch 20k together. Need a third Healing Ward shield for that.

So you are complaining about a player using 3 seconds to stack defenses and in most cases reapplying anyway due to the ridiculous amount of burst stamina is putting out anyway. On top of that, in order to sustain that sorcs are running probably like 1500 spell dmg ballpark and hitting like a wet noodle.

Magicka sorcs are a complete joke right now, and that is supported by the fact they are in the minority in Cyrodiil (PC). And for a class that is supposed to be fairly dominant 1v1, I rarely see them scratching the top 5 in duels anymore.

All in all, you need to play a sorc before you complain about one. Visit a guild trader and buy a clue instead of coming to the forums asking for yet another nerf, and triggering the 7 or 8 magicka sorcs remaining.


For funsies
@Minalan @Derra @RinaldoGandolphi @Irylia @Hexys @Fasold666 @Lord-Otto @Lord_Hev @Lexxypwns

There I think I tagged all the remaining magicka sorcs, plus or minus 1 or 2.
Note most of the above don't even bother playing their magicka sorcs anymore.

Lexxypwns

Shields are only a useful defense against someone who isn’t good enough to count to 5 then burst you.

Edit: shields are dominant against sources of low damage, but high damage opponents will shrug off that shield and burst your health pool