It's time to add a real counter to shields

Ratzkifal

As a sorc main I am very disgusted with how overpowered my shields are. It has gotten to the point where I stop playing pvp simply because it feels like cheating. Sorcs really have to be nerfed more. As OP said, shields need a solid counter - like shield breaker letting all ofl your damage bypass shields.

Doctordarkspawn

PVP Cannot be satisfied due to the nature of PVP.

Every time a PVP player calls for a nerf it damages the game with no consequence to them.

Maybe we should impose a 10 dollar fee?

Malamar1229

Ratzkifal wrote: »

As a sorc main I am very disgusted with how overpowered my shields are. It has gotten to the point where I stop playing pvp simply because it feels like cheating. Sorcs really have to be nerfed more. As OP said, shields need a solid counter - like shield breaker letting all ofl your damage bypass shields.

Yah....ok.

catalyst10e

Ratzkifal wrote: »

As a sorc main I am very disgusted with how overpowered my shields are. It has gotten to the point where I stop playing pvp simply because it feels like cheating. Sorcs really have to be nerfed more. As OP said, shields need a solid counter - like shield breaker letting all ofl your damage bypass shields.

This doesnt sound like a sorc main. It sounds more like a NB main. Or a non CP player. What class would openly say with such self righteousness "Yes, I'm too OP, so OP i refuse to play. please allow more things to break the only defense I have so I can die more often"?

Voxicity

Don't fight sorcs unless there's 1 or 2 of your alliance around


Literally

Voxicity

Malamar1229 wrote: »

What a joke....

Let me start with this game is not designed around 1v1 so the fact that you struggle on your magicka warden against mag sorcs specifically doesn't matter. Every build should have it's kryptonite.

Secondly 20k shield isn't possible unless stacking hardened ward and harness magicka together....in fact mine wouldn't even touch 20k together. Need a third Healing Ward shield for that.

So you are complaining about a player using 3 seconds to stack defenses and in most cases reapplying anyway due to the ridiculous amount of burst stamina is putting out anyway. On top of that, in order to sustain that sorcs are running probably like 1500 spell dmg ballpark and hitting like a wet noodle.

Magicka sorcs are a complete joke right now, and that is supported by the fact they are in the minority in Cyrodiil (PC). And for a class that is supposed to be fairly dominant 1v1, I rarely see them scratching the top 5 in duels anymore.

All in all, you need to play a sorc before you complain about one. Visit a guild trader and buy a clue instead of coming to the forums asking for yet another nerf, and triggering the 7 or 8 magicka sorcs remaining.


For funsies
@Minalan @Derra @RinaldoGandolphi @Irylia @Hexys @Fasold666 @Lord-Otto @Lord_Hev @Lexxypwns

There I think I tagged all the remaining magicka sorcs, plus or minus 1 or 2.
Note most of the above don't even bother playing their magicka sorcs anymore.

So basically in summary you are biased towards a class and reject what anyone else says because it's your class and nobody should touch it?

Cronopoly

I rarely see Sorcs in PVP now. I see more Templars by far as the AOE cleans synergy is just too good to completely ignore. Occasionally I'll see a Negate and say wow, those were the days...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

What do I think?

I think that if you think sorc shields are the best mitigation tool in cyrodiil, you are beyond clueless. Yes, they are powerful in 1v1, but are competently laughable when you are facing multiple enemies, especially when compared to permablock or perma dodgers. Warden is an objectively stronger class than sorc right now in PVP. If you can't beat one, he/she is just better than you.

A few points, very few sorcs have 20k shields in PVP. Most people that double up on harness and hardened end up in the hight teens. Yes a healing ward can push you over 20, but that means a sorc is literally devoting half of their rotation to a shield stack. If you cant figure out how to pressure that, l2P.

Also, do you know why you cant crit shields? It's because you also can't block or mitigate damage against a shield. Your resistances mean nothing, and blocking actually serves as a detriment because it drains stamina with no benefit. Equating them to an extra uncrittable health bar objectively shows you dont understand how shields function and are therefore wildly unqualified to suggest ways to nerf them.

Tonturri

Oh boy oh boy. Let's give this another go.

- Sorcs apply their shields at about 10k per GCD (or 1 shield/a sec or so). That 20k shield stack is two shields. During that time, you SHOULD have a DoT ticking on them, but in order to simplify, let's just assume that you manage 1 LA + ability for every LA + ability they do. Their LA + ability is shield (LA might not even be there, or barswap). The 10k shield they're getting every time you get to LA + ability should be mostly gone from said LA/ability. If your damage is low, that's not the sorc's fault.

Just as an example, I have a very, very generic stamblade setup. Tooltip-damage wise, I deal 5k Surprise attack + like...2k LA? That's 7k worth of shield that should be gone every time the sorc casts a shield. Let me again point out that my NB's weapon damage is VERY LOW in comparison to meta builds. Take into consdiering that you should definitely have at least one DoT and I must wonder how much damage you're actually managing to output if shields are an issue.

- Shields cannot crit. They cannot be crit. This looks fair to me.

- Shields have no major/minor buff, but there is no major/minor buff that decreases their effectiveness. This looks pretty fair.

- Befoul is extremely strong right now. You can easily slash players' healing by another 50% without giving up much at all, and then another 10-20% reduction if you build around it a little bit. Shields are currently one of the few viable soft counters to Befoul/defile builds, which imo is needed.

- You can easily invest in the CP star that increases outgoing damage to shields without giving up much at all. It scales very nicely.

- Running the sorc out of resources is definitely viable. Shields are costly. Pressure the shields and they'll be forced to streak, which is easily negated by a gap closer. If they keep on streaking, they WILL run out of magicka (50% extra cost each cast, stacking). Dark Deal/conversion sucks away one resource in exchange for another. The only 'free' thing about it is the (rather lackluster) heal. They're sucking away precious stamina in return for magicka, making it even easier to pressure their stamina pool.

I still find this really weird. How is it that sorcs, for whatever reason, just can't feel resource pressure? THey don't have access to sets others don't. Their passives aren't so much better than others (except implosion, but only when it procs, so the vast majority of the time it's worthless). Dark deal just converts one resource into another.

I keep seeing people go 'you can't pressure a good sorc out of his resources'. If that ever comes up, it just makes it look like whoever it saying such isn't as good as the sorc they're fighting. Seriously, what? 'you can't get a good sorc out of resources. Not with skillls like steak (which has an increasing, stacking cost), dark deal (does nothing but convert one resources into another), and resto staff ult (everyone has this, good defensive skill, but still...what?)

You cannot just nerf sorc shields (or shields in general) without considering the reprocussions, both for other classes that use shields and for sorcs. Sorcs have...like two things? Shields and streak. That's about it.

Let me summarize.

- Can't be crit, but doesn't crit
- Can't be penetrated, but has no protection from armor (takes full tooltip damage)
- Isn't reduced by defiles, but unlike heals, has no major/minor buff that increases effectiveness
- CP star to deal extra damage to shields scales very, very well
- Shields are among the most expensive defensive skills and fall off after six seconds. They do not scale like, for example, dodge roll
- They don't actually heal (unless your damage output is so low that they can let their healing ward expire). This means that if you get their health low, they have more trouble recovering from the execute zone than other classes.

People are after a hard counter to shields when not only is there already one (muliple really - shield breaker and that enchant thingy totally ignore shields), but also a multitude of soft counters.

Look at your scenario. It shows you don't know sorcs very well. If the sorc is executeable, then your execute will take off a massive chunk of his shields. And what are 'you' doing during the entire scenario? Standing there while he streaks away (which if he's on the slighest incline he'll see a little delay as he drops to the ground/goes a shorter distance if going up the incline). You also totally neglect Curse, which he won't be able to kill you without. You could block the flame reach, maybe? What about your own defenses? Your entire 'example scenario' is cherry picked to support your own point of view. You're giving the sorc 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...five skill casts and you've apparently done jack in this amount of time? Not to mention IMplosion has a very small proc chance. Look around the forums and you'll see sorcs wishing they could get something more consistantly useful. I do admit it is far too strong..but only when it procs. Edit - I was on my laptop when I posted this and can't find aforementioned scenario in the op/anywhere. Odd. Another edit, woo. My bad OP, mistook xeNNNN's whatsit for yours. @xeNNNNN this is for you

In closing, remember that sorc burst is EXTREMELY predictable. They cannot kill you any other way and it's extremely obvious. What do you think the sorc is gonna do if he casts Curse on ya, waits a bit, then casts flame reach? xD Really. C'mon. It's no mystery.

Edit: Pls pardon any mild exaggerations. These threads are popping up way too much and it's irritating. I am aware of Deal's morph effects, etc. Kthx.

Edit2: Oh damn you're a magden. Okay. Use Shimmering Shield and you'll never die to a sorc ever again.

Jaybe_Mawfaka

100% agreed @ZOS_Wrobel PLS

Hurtfan

If you're shield stacking, you're not attacking...unless I'm missing something (maybe I need to L2P). But when I do it, it's because I'm receiving an onslaught of damage, hoping there will be a break and then I can return fire....

Lord-Otto

This topic will lose even more steam, now that consoles got DB. I can already forsee a large number of frustrated players complaining about NBs. Save your breath for that topic, guys!

Voxicity

Hurtfan wrote: »

If you're shield stacking, you're not attacking...unless I'm missing something (maybe I need to L2P). But when I do it, it's because I'm receiving an onslaught of damage, hoping there will be a break and then I can return fire....

Curse is a dot, flame reach has a dot, endless fury has an execute proc, burning status effect is a dot. All of this damage can occur while weaving shields between abilities

The sorcs OP is talking about are those who don't shield reactively, but those who shield constantly. A sorc who goes on the defensive and shiekd stacks is an easy kill

I don't think sorcs are nearly as strong as they were the past few patches and I don't personally think the shielding is the problem, there are other things that make good sorcs more OP than simply their shields

Sanctum74

I bet at the same time your cursing out that sorc for shield stacking he is also cursing you out as a magden since you have shimmering shield which basically negates all of his attacks, costs next to nothing, and gives insane ultimate regeneration.

Not to mention you also have a free purge to get rid of that curse if he's lucky enough to even get one off through that op magden shield.

I play both classes so I'm not trying to pick sides, but magden has a far better toolkit and you can also use harness with shimmering and a sorc will never be able to touch you.

I think it's only 57 cp point to get 20% additional damage against shields, combine that with a good burst combo, soft and hard cc's, and that sorc will drop or run away.

Minalan

Tonturri wrote: »

Oh boy oh boy. Let's give this another go.

- Sorcs apply their shields at about 10k per GCD (or 1 shield/a sec or so). That 20k shield stack is two shields. During that time, you SHOULD have a DoT ticking on them, but in order to simplify, let's just assume that you manage 1 LA + ability for every LA + ability they do. Their LA + ability is shield (LA might not even be there, or barswap). The 10k shield they're getting every time you get to LA + ability should be mostly gone from said LA/ability. If your damage is low, that's not the sorc's fault.

Just as an example, I have a very, very generic stamblade setup. Tooltip-damage wise, I deal 5k Surprise attack + like...2k LA? That's 7k worth of shield that should be gone every time the sorc casts a shield. Let me again point out that my NB's weapon damage is VERY LOW in comparison to meta builds. Take into consdiering that you should definitely have at least one DoT and I must wonder how much damage you're actually managing to output if shields are an issue.

- Shields cannot crit. They cannot be crit. This looks fair to me.

- Shields have no major/minor buff, but there is no major/minor buff that decreases their effectiveness. This looks pretty fair.

- Befoul is extremely strong right now. You can easily slash players' healing by another 50% without giving up much at all, and then another 10-20% reduction if you build around it a little bit. Shields are currently one of the few viable soft counters to Befoul/defile builds, which imo is needed.

- You can easily invest in the CP star that increases outgoing damage to shields without giving up much at all. It scales very nicely.

- Running the sorc out of resources is definitely viable. Shields are costly. Pressure the shields and they'll be forced to streak, which is easily negated by a gap closer. If they keep on streaking, they WILL run out of magicka (50% extra cost each cast, stacking). Dark Deal/conversion sucks away one resource in exchange for another. The only 'free' thing about it is the (rather lackluster) heal. They're sucking away precious stamina in return for magicka, making it even easier to pressure their stamina pool.

I still find this really weird. How is it that sorcs, for whatever reason, just can't feel resource pressure? THey don't have access to sets others don't. Their passives aren't so much better than others (except implosion, but only when it procs, so the vast majority of the time it's worthless). Dark deal just converts one resource into another.

I keep seeing people go 'you can't pressure a good sorc out of his resources'. If that ever comes up, it just makes it look like whoever it saying such isn't as good as the sorc they're fighting. Seriously, what? 'you can't get a good sorc out of resources. Not with skillls like steak (which has an increasing, stacking cost), dark deal (does nothing but convert one resources into another), and resto staff ult (everyone has this, good defensive skill, but still...what?)

You cannot just nerf sorc shields (or shields in general) without considering the reprocussions, both for other classes that use shields and for sorcs. Sorcs have...like two things? Shields and streak. That's about it.

Let me summarize.

- Can't be crit, but doesn't crit
- Can't be penetrated, but has no protection from armor (takes full tooltip damage)
- Isn't reduced by defiles, but unlike heals, has no major/minor buff that increases effectiveness
- CP star to deal extra damage to shields scales very, very well
- Shields are among the most expensive defensive skills and fall off after six seconds. They do not scale like, for example, dodge roll
- They don't actually heal (unless your damage output is so low that they can let their healing ward expire). This means that if you get their health low, they have more trouble recovering from the execute zone than other classes.

People are after a hard counter to shields when not only is there already one (muliple really - shield breaker and that enchant thingy totally ignore shields), but also a multitude of soft counters.

Look at your scenario. It shows you don't know sorcs very well. If the sorc is executeable, then your execute will take off a massive chunk of his shields. And what are 'you' doing during the entire scenario? Standing there while he streaks away (which if he's on the slighest incline he'll see a little delay as he drops to the ground/goes a shorter distance if going up the incline). You also totally neglect Curse, which he won't be able to kill you without. You could block the flame reach, maybe? What about your own defenses? Your entire 'example scenario' is cherry picked to support your own point of view. You're giving the sorc 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...five skill casts and you've apparently done jack in this amount of time? Not to mention IMplosion has a very small proc chance. Look around the forums and you'll see sorcs wishing they could get something more consistantly useful. I do admit it is far too strong..but only when it procs.

In closing, remember that sorc burst is EXTREMELY predictable. They cannot kill you any other way and it's extremely obvious. What do you think the sorc is gonna do if he casts Curse on ya, waits a bit, then casts flame reach? xD Really. C'mon. It's no mystery.

Edit: Pls pardon any mild exaggerations. These threads are popping up way too much and it's irritating. I am aware of Deal's morph effects, etc. Kthx.

This guy summed it up nicely @Malamar1229

Too bad the legions of crybabies wont read or understand any of it because they’re inherently lazy and not that bright to begin with. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be the baby seals that decent Sorcs club all day long.

If a Sorc is 1vXing your friends:

* Magicka poison him. 30% increased resources hurts.
* Attack his stamina bar. Stun, root, root, stun again. Eventually he’ll run out and fail to break a CC.
* Toss on 15% or so shattering CP.
* Increase spell and weapon damage, you should be able to out damage an 8-10K shield with a light attack woven into a damage ability.
* Learn to weave light and heavy attacks. This is a serious L2P issue that you CAN fix. Click light. Hit button.
* Learn to time CC. Whittle their shields down, CC, high damage burst and execute.
* Hitting a low health Sorc with an execute will usually blow their shields away. The shields eat the full damage, and you can do it multiple times.

Malamar1229

Voxicity wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

What a joke....

Let me start with this game is not designed around 1v1 so the fact that you struggle on your magicka warden against mag sorcs specifically doesn't matter. Every build should have it's kryptonite.

Secondly 20k shield isn't possible unless stacking hardened ward and harness magicka together....in fact mine wouldn't even touch 20k together. Need a third Healing Ward shield for that.

So you are complaining about a player using 3 seconds to stack defenses and in most cases reapplying anyway due to the ridiculous amount of burst stamina is putting out anyway. On top of that, in order to sustain that sorcs are running probably like 1500 spell dmg ballpark and hitting like a wet noodle.

Magicka sorcs are a complete joke right now, and that is supported by the fact they are in the minority in Cyrodiil (PC). And for a class that is supposed to be fairly dominant 1v1, I rarely see them scratching the top 5 in duels anymore.

All in all, you need to play a sorc before you complain about one. Visit a guild trader and buy a clue instead of coming to the forums asking for yet another nerf, and triggering the 7 or 8 magicka sorcs remaining.


For funsies
@Minalan @Derra @RinaldoGandolphi @Irylia @Hexys @Fasold666 @Lord-Otto @Lord_Hev @Lexxypwns

There I think I tagged all the remaining magicka sorcs, plus or minus 1 or 2.
Note most of the above don't even bother playing their magicka sorcs anymore.

So basically in summary you are biased towards a class and reject what anyone else says because it's your class and nobody should touch it?

I play every class, stamina and magicka.

Biro123

Don't magdens have a nice little ability that stops pretty much all sorc damage for free?

Minalan

Maryal wrote: »

SaKGEE wrote: »

Hello,

I am not one to usually make “complaint” threads, bbut the situation in Cyrodiil is really uuntenable. The magicka sorcerer deffense mechanics are just way too overpowered compared to other classes that rely on healing rather than shielding to sustain and survive.

We have a CP passive that debufffs healing and health regen, as well as numerous sets such as Durok’s bane and Fassala that work towardss the same goal. This, in my opinion is a very good option to coounter healbots and tanky builds in general.

However, when I see sorrcerers jumping around like the coolest monkeys in the jungle stacking 20k shields on average (which basically equates to a 20k additional and UNCRITABLE health bar), it’s just accepted without critique. And when I ask a relevant question like: how do you ccounter it? I’m just being told to git gud by some pathetic losers, or else to slot Shieldbreaker. As a magicka warden…

Shieldbreaker isn’t a solution. It is a small and dirty band-aid applied to the gapping and bleeding wound that is the overperformance of mag sorcs in Cyrodiil.
Why should I need to slot an arguably underperforming stamina set to deal with shielldstacking monkeys? Why doesn’t the Befoul CP reduce shield size and performance instead?

Other unfabulous (and no doubt sorc main) detractors might ssay that you can get a sorcerer out of resources to stop them from shielding. To this I say, you can’t get a good sorc out of resources. Not with skills like streak, dark deal, and restoration staff ulti in their kit.

I think the solution I propose is a very reasonable one. Make Befoul reduce shield size too, or else augment the damage they take.

What do you think?

I like your proposal ... it sounds logical and reasonable, although I do have one small suggestion for you to consider:
The shield-reducing (befoul) debuff can only be applied as a single-target de-buff (meaning no shield-reducing AOE de-buffs).

Absolute genius. Let’s defile shields, when mending buffs don’t affect them. Ignoring the fact that Sorcs have zero access to major or minor mending anyways, even if it did!

But ignore that and let’s focus on how SMART of an idea this is!

Eirella

OdinForge wrote: »

ZOS could delete the sorc class and people would still be making threads about them.

So true

Joy_Division

Give me back all those dumb and unnecessary nerfs that were implemented because of people who "am not one to usually make “complaint” threads" and I'll start listening to the complaint threads made by people who usually don't complain pertaining with shields.

Voxicity

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

What a joke....

Let me start with this game is not designed around 1v1 so the fact that you struggle on your magicka warden against mag sorcs specifically doesn't matter. Every build should have it's kryptonite.

Secondly 20k shield isn't possible unless stacking hardened ward and harness magicka together....in fact mine wouldn't even touch 20k together. Need a third Healing Ward shield for that.

So you are complaining about a player using 3 seconds to stack defenses and in most cases reapplying anyway due to the ridiculous amount of burst stamina is putting out anyway. On top of that, in order to sustain that sorcs are running probably like 1500 spell dmg ballpark and hitting like a wet noodle.

Magicka sorcs are a complete joke right now, and that is supported by the fact they are in the minority in Cyrodiil (PC). And for a class that is supposed to be fairly dominant 1v1, I rarely see them scratching the top 5 in duels anymore.

All in all, you need to play a sorc before you complain about one. Visit a guild trader and buy a clue instead of coming to the forums asking for yet another nerf, and triggering the 7 or 8 magicka sorcs remaining.


For funsies
@Minalan @Derra @RinaldoGandolphi @Irylia @Hexys @Fasold666 @Lord-Otto @Lord_Hev @Lexxypwns

There I think I tagged all the remaining magicka sorcs, plus or minus 1 or 2.
Note most of the above don't even bother playing their magicka sorcs anymore.

So basically in summary you are biased towards a class and reject what anyone else says because it's your class and nobody should touch it?

I play every class, stamina and magicka.

Reading your signature leads me to believe you 'main' or primarily play magsorc. therefore you're probably biased towards it. Of course I could be wrong and if so then I apologise, but I'd be fairly confident in guessing you play magicka sorc the most

leepalmer95

Been of this forum for months.

I see bad players are still crying about sorc shields..


Honestly, literally 2 half good players will melt any sorc, shields just aren't good anymore.

a1i3nz

Or, as I always do, walk away from them.

If a see a heavy armor templar with s&b and wizards and no damage I tbag them/fear them/shame them.

Most shield stacking sorcs are the same. If they're spamming shields they aren't attacking.

Just have fun with it

Vaoh

Yessssss! A legit nerf Sorc thread I was worried the meme was going to die.

Sorcs are def waaaaaay too strong rn. Especially moreso than NBs. Buff NB and nerf Sorc

ak_pvp

It is true that as a defense shields have little in the way of every day counter. No debuffs, (Scales of mag, can't debuff mag. The CP isn't really a proper counter, since it depends on your damage. Make it like siphoner and reduce the base shield then sure.) no normal types of damage that go though it (oblivion only) and for some stupid legacy reason it ignores status effects.

However, unlike something like cloak, shield has a hard limit. Play around that, pressure, timing etc. Sustain has been nerfed enough, and sorcs are so monotonously predictable that its not an exceptionally difficult thing to fight against.

leepalmer95

ak_pvp wrote: »

It is true that as a defense shields have little in the way of every day counter. No debuffs, (Scales of mag, can't debuff mag. The CP isn't really a proper counter, since it depends on your damage. Make it like siphoner and reduce the base shield then sure.) no normal types of damage that go though it (oblivion only) and for some stupid legacy reason it ignores status effects.

However, unlike something like cloak, shield has a hard limit. Play around that, pressure, timing etc. Sustain has been nerfed enough, and sorcs are so monotonously predictable that its not an exceptionally difficult thing to fight against.

Cp is actually bias towards dealing more dmg to shields.

1 increases your dmg flat out by a %. Your dmg is based of max stat + wpn/spell dmg.

1 increases shield size based on max shield, max shield is based on max magicka only.

Dapper Dinosaur

As someone that hates this game's PVP with a passion and knows significantly less about it than people who enjoy it (I would hope), even I know the answer to this: Use spell cost poisons. Have fun spamming those shields when you have that effect on you.

leepalmer95

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

As someone that hates this game's PVP with a passion and knows significantly less about it than people who enjoy it (I would hope), even I know the answer to this: Use spell cost poisons. Have fun spamming those shields when you have that effect on you.

Sure i guess, broken things like cost poisons have always been a crutch easy mode save for worse players.

But i honestly can't comprehend people crying about sorc shields... 1.7 sure but now?


How many people asking for nerfs actually play sorc? And by play i don't mean run around in a 28k potato build in a zerg spamming execute.

If you are every struggling to kill a mag sorc its entirely your build and you as a players fault. Because if you run around in one of those stupid 30k+ zergling builds and decide to spam templar javelin, radiant while full hp and heavy lightning attack as your contribution to 'dmg' then you are not going to kill anything.

RinaldoGandolphi

is this like 2015 again? We are really going to complain about damage shields at this point?

Damage Shields are the WORST SCALING defensive mechanic in the game now thanks to endless nerfs. (if your focused on by more then 2 competent players your dead)

• They lose 50% of their value in Cyrodiil,
• they have a CP star that increases damage against them,
• they have two armor sets that ignores them(shield breaker and knight slayer)
• Oblivion damage enchantments ignore them

What more do you want?

Some folks won't be happy until Magicka Sorc is completely unplayable...and its very close to that point now...the class has very glaring weaknesses, moreso then any other class if you understand how Mag Sorc actually works...

Lord_Hev