It's time to add a real counter to shields

Derra

@SaKGEE

as a magica warden... AS A MAGICA WARDEN?????!

Would you be so kind and explain to me how a sorc should ever touch your hp if you decide to do the same and stack annulment + shimmering + healing ward?
If you think sorc shieldstacking is bad you should try fighting a magica warden on a pure projectile based magica build - because you´re literally playing shieldstacking on steroids and come complaining about sorcs. It´s ironic.



That being said - i don´t disagree that hardened + annulment stacking has to go. However to create a situation where the class isn´t destroyed for 90% of the people playing it it has to be compensated with survivability elsewhere and also for the overall terrible offense it currently has.
The only way sorc kills something is when they´re kind enough to rip themselves in mines. If you want to nerf defense you have to give the class the ability back to kill opponents.

Your proposed solution is terrible though - as it would gut builds only utilizing 1 shield while forcing light armor shield users into using more shields instead of less. Way to go.

Derra

Voxicity wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

What a joke....

Let me start with this game is not designed around 1v1 so the fact that you struggle on your magicka warden against mag sorcs specifically doesn't matter. Every build should have it's kryptonite.

Secondly 20k shield isn't possible unless stacking hardened ward and harness magicka together....in fact mine wouldn't even touch 20k together. Need a third Healing Ward shield for that.

So you are complaining about a player using 3 seconds to stack defenses and in most cases reapplying anyway due to the ridiculous amount of burst stamina is putting out anyway. On top of that, in order to sustain that sorcs are running probably like 1500 spell dmg ballpark and hitting like a wet noodle.

Magicka sorcs are a complete joke right now, and that is supported by the fact they are in the minority in Cyrodiil (PC). And for a class that is supposed to be fairly dominant 1v1, I rarely see them scratching the top 5 in duels anymore.

All in all, you need to play a sorc before you complain about one. Visit a guild trader and buy a clue instead of coming to the forums asking for yet another nerf, and triggering the 7 or 8 magicka sorcs remaining.


For funsies
@Minalan @Derra @RinaldoGandolphi @Irylia @Hexys @Fasold666 @Lord-Otto @Lord_Hev @Lexxypwns

There I think I tagged all the remaining magicka sorcs, plus or minus 1 or 2.
Note most of the above don't even bother playing their magicka sorcs anymore.

So basically in summary you are biased towards a class and reject what anyone else says because it's your class and nobody should touch it?

The classes performance in any player organized content (ie: duels/tournaments) speaks volumes at this point. Sorc is a bottom tier class (except for pet builds) against most competent opponents and only excels in not dying to melee opponents.

Feanor

Yes, totally get rid of stacking Harness Magicka and Hardened/Empowered Ward. Then we might see some sensible Sorc buffs. While you’re at it also rework the Sorc class toolkit.

ak_pvp

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

is this like 2015 again? We are really going to complain about damage shields at this point?

Damage Shields are the WORST SCALING defensive mechanic in the game now thanks to endless nerfs. (if your focused on by more then 2 competent players your dead)

• They lose 50% of their value in Cyrodiil,
• they have a CP star that increases damage against them,
• they have two armor sets that ignores them(shield breaker and knight slayer)
• Oblivion damage enchantments ignore them

What more do you want?

Some folks won't be happy until Magicka Sorc is completely unplayable...and its very close to that point now...the class has very glaring weaknesses, moreso then any other class if you understand how Mag Sorc actually works...

Preface: imo they should only be nerfed if other parts get buffed. Sorcerer is in a tragic state, that doesn't mean shields are though. Hell even MagDKs run shield builds to conserve damage whilst getting comparable defense to block.

What you said is wrong. They are probably the second best kind of defense in many case due to the versatility in lack of counters (cloak has more counters, but no arbitrary limit, making it better as the players skill increases) and scaling of a damage Increasing attribute. Oblivion goes through all, same with knightslayer. Shieldbreaker is a bad half assed fix to the shields strength and should be removed.

Yeah, it dies pretty fast against many enemies, but unlike healing/resistances (has none but mag determines it's strength) it can't be debuffed to heck. Defile+befoul is much worse for healing than the shattering is for shields.

Which doesn't even necessarily cancel out the other one, since its based of personal damage. What @leepalmer95 said is untrue too. Just because shields only scale of Mag and damage scales of both wp/sp and stam/mag doesn't mean that one is favored more.

For instance pets scale of mag alone, but they scale highly of that stat whereas everything else is split between the two.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

just use posions and rip away their magic, stamina etc

Ragnaroek93

Sorc shields are the last thing which make sorc viable. The killing potential is almost non existant (even on a squishy stam nb I have hard time to not die unless I jump into mines), their defense against several enemies is garbage and sustain is probably the worst of all mag classes.

Edit: Don't let me getting started about how many counters to projectiles exist now. Even sword and board is by default so strong against projectiles.

Mayrael

So while we are at shields... Can we get rid of this magicka return from shield that warden has? It costs less, is twice as big, gives free ultimates or damages your attacker AND returns over a half of its costs, it can be spammed even on stamden... How the f... mag sorc is supposed to kill magden when literally all of sorcs attacks are ranged? Use freakin aoes? Curse? You mean that skill that costs ton of magicka and deals damage after 3,5 sec during which magden can remove it AT NO COST? Oh right, shield breaker and knightslayer? Mhm THE sets that you said are not enough against sorcs that have nor reliable self heal, while warden has a whole tree dedicated to it? Right... Im all in! Nerf shields, all of them! Im a real noob when it goes to stamina toons but even I can have a lot more fun when playing stamblade.

ak_pvp

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Sorc shields are the last thing which make sorc viable. The killing potential is almost non existant (even on a squishy stam nb I have hard time to not die unless I jump into mines), their defense against several enemies is garbage and sustain is probably the worst of all mag classes.

Edit: Don't let me getting started about how many counters to projectiles exist now. Even sword and board is by default so strong against projectiles.

Nerf em, buff everything else.

Minalan

A warden complaining about shield stacking is hilarious when Shimmering shield is the most broken OP POS in the game right now.

Our shield stack is half the size and doesn’t grant us major heroism.

Malamar1229

Minalan wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Oh boy oh boy. Let's give this another go.

- Sorcs apply their shields at about 10k per GCD (or 1 shield/a sec or so). That 20k shield stack is two shields. During that time, you SHOULD have a DoT ticking on them, but in order to simplify, let's just assume that you manage 1 LA + ability for every LA + ability they do. Their LA + ability is shield (LA might not even be there, or barswap). The 10k shield they're getting every time you get to LA + ability should be mostly gone from said LA/ability. If your damage is low, that's not the sorc's fault.

Just as an example, I have a very, very generic stamblade setup. Tooltip-damage wise, I deal 5k Surprise attack + like...2k LA? That's 7k worth of shield that should be gone every time the sorc casts a shield. Let me again point out that my NB's weapon damage is VERY LOW in comparison to meta builds. Take into consdiering that you should definitely have at least one DoT and I must wonder how much damage you're actually managing to output if shields are an issue.

- Shields cannot crit. They cannot be crit. This looks fair to me.

- Shields have no major/minor buff, but there is no major/minor buff that decreases their effectiveness. This looks pretty fair.

- Befoul is extremely strong right now. You can easily slash players' healing by another 50% without giving up much at all, and then another 10-20% reduction if you build around it a little bit. Shields are currently one of the few viable soft counters to Befoul/defile builds, which imo is needed.

- You can easily invest in the CP star that increases outgoing damage to shields without giving up much at all. It scales very nicely.

- Running the sorc out of resources is definitely viable. Shields are costly. Pressure the shields and they'll be forced to streak, which is easily negated by a gap closer. If they keep on streaking, they WILL run out of magicka (50% extra cost each cast, stacking). Dark Deal/conversion sucks away one resource in exchange for another. The only 'free' thing about it is the (rather lackluster) heal. They're sucking away precious stamina in return for magicka, making it even easier to pressure their stamina pool.

I still find this really weird. How is it that sorcs, for whatever reason, just can't feel resource pressure? THey don't have access to sets others don't. Their passives aren't so much better than others (except implosion, but only when it procs, so the vast majority of the time it's worthless). Dark deal just converts one resource into another.

I keep seeing people go 'you can't pressure a good sorc out of his resources'. If that ever comes up, it just makes it look like whoever it saying such isn't as good as the sorc they're fighting. Seriously, what? 'you can't get a good sorc out of resources. Not with skillls like steak (which has an increasing, stacking cost), dark deal (does nothing but convert one resources into another), and resto staff ult (everyone has this, good defensive skill, but still...what?)

You cannot just nerf sorc shields (or shields in general) without considering the reprocussions, both for other classes that use shields and for sorcs. Sorcs have...like two things? Shields and streak. That's about it.

Let me summarize.

- Can't be crit, but doesn't crit
- Can't be penetrated, but has no protection from armor (takes full tooltip damage)
- Isn't reduced by defiles, but unlike heals, has no major/minor buff that increases effectiveness
- CP star to deal extra damage to shields scales very, very well
- Shields are among the most expensive defensive skills and fall off after six seconds. They do not scale like, for example, dodge roll
- They don't actually heal (unless your damage output is so low that they can let their healing ward expire). This means that if you get their health low, they have more trouble recovering from the execute zone than other classes.

People are after a hard counter to shields when not only is there already one (muliple really - shield breaker and that enchant thingy totally ignore shields), but also a multitude of soft counters.

Look at your scenario. It shows you don't know sorcs very well. If the sorc is executeable, then your execute will take off a massive chunk of his shields. And what are 'you' doing during the entire scenario? Standing there while he streaks away (which if he's on the slighest incline he'll see a little delay as he drops to the ground/goes a shorter distance if going up the incline). You also totally neglect Curse, which he won't be able to kill you without. You could block the flame reach, maybe? What about your own defenses? Your entire 'example scenario' is cherry picked to support your own point of view. You're giving the sorc 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...five skill casts and you've apparently done jack in this amount of time? Not to mention IMplosion has a very small proc chance. Look around the forums and you'll see sorcs wishing they could get something more consistantly useful. I do admit it is far too strong..but only when it procs.

In closing, remember that sorc burst is EXTREMELY predictable. They cannot kill you any other way and it's extremely obvious. What do you think the sorc is gonna do if he casts Curse on ya, waits a bit, then casts flame reach? xD Really. C'mon. It's no mystery.

Edit: Pls pardon any mild exaggerations. These threads are popping up way too much and it's irritating. I am aware of Deal's morph effects, etc. Kthx.

This guy summed it up nicely @Malamar1229

Too bad the legions of crybabies wont read or understand any of it because they’re inherently lazy and not that bright to begin with. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be the baby seals that decent Sorcs club all day long.

If a Sorc is 1vXing your friends:

* Magicka poison him. 30% increased resources hurts.
* Attack his stamina bar. Stun, root, root, stun again. Eventually he’ll run out and fail to break a CC.
* Toss on 15% or so shattering CP.
* Increase spell and weapon damage, you should be able to out damage an 8-10K shield with a light attack woven into a damage ability.
* Learn to weave light and heavy attacks. This is a serious L2P issue that you CAN fix. Click light. Hit button.
* Learn to time CC. Whittle their shields down, CC, high damage burst and execute.
* Hitting a low health Sorc with an execute will usually blow their shields away. The shields eat the full damage, and you can do it multiple times.

His comment regarding those who feel it's impossible to pressure a sorc 1v1....I agree with it if you are talking about another magicka sorc pressuring a mag sorc assuming he's running harness. I've been in 15 minute duels before.

And you should stop encouraging people to use poisons.