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Procs and Scaling and their impact on PvP imbalances
BohnT
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Everyone who played pvp in the last 2 years remembers the dark era when fights were decided by RNG and even unskilled players could easily one shot top tier players with a little bit of luck and especially when fighting multiple proc users.
The main problem of Procs is that they have a fixed tooltip that you get when slotting the set, none of your stats impact this raw tooltip.
you can increase your end tooltip with better stats, more damage, buffs etc.
The scaling however is rather low when compared to abilities meaning, a build with overall low offensive stats and procs is only a smidgen behind the damage of a full damage build that sacrifices sustain and survivability.
This makes it easy to pick the better setup, with procs you can fully invest in sustain and survivability while your procs will completely take care or the damage part.
With the two new introduced sets Zaan and Caluurion we got back to those dark times.
Zaan hits for upto 20k on a completely defensive build and yes it hits for 20k and no you can't get out of range because the wearer will follow you and he will easily be in a 10m radius around you.
Caluurion’s will hit for around 5-8k, while applying a correlating status effect.
This gives tanks again a way to still deal enough damage to kill people or at least apply enough pressure to get them killed when outnumbering while being unkillable for the enemy.
The amount of free damage procs give you is too much and needs to scale with your stats.
The main problem of Procs is that they have a fixed tooltip that you get when slotting the set, none of your stats impact this raw tooltip.
you can increase your end tooltip with better stats, more damage, buffs etc.
The scaling however is rather low when compared to abilities meaning, a build with overall low offensive stats and procs is only a smidgen behind the damage of a full damage build that sacrifices sustain and survivability.
This makes it easy to pick the better setup, with procs you can fully invest in sustain and survivability while your procs will completely take care or the damage part.
With the two new introduced sets Zaan and Caluurion we got back to those dark times.
Zaan hits for upto 20k on a completely defensive build and yes it hits for 20k and no you can't get out of range because the wearer will follow you and he will easily be in a 10m radius around you.
Caluurion’s will hit for around 5-8k, while applying a correlating status effect.
This gives tanks again a way to still deal enough damage to kill people or at least apply enough pressure to get them killed when outnumbering while being unkillable for the enemy.
The amount of free damage procs give you is too much and needs to scale with your stats.
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »Eso combat takes no skill
Then why are you still a background artist in 1vX clips?19 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I havent played for months. Show me a clip
Then why the hell are you on the forums?8 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ugh, another nerf Zaan thread? Can the forums stop calling for nerfs to everything under the sun?3 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I havent played for months. Show me a clip
Then why the hell are you on the forums?
Well since I must explain myself to your highness I like the outfit system, and when zos decides to unnerf Dk passives Ill play again. However this time Im not gonna have 360ms2 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ugh, another nerf Zaan thread? Can the forums stop calling for nerfs to everything under the sun?
Why do people always exaggerate so hard when it comes to nerfs?
The overperforming things in this game need to be balanced and this is the small minority of things but they ruin the balance of the rest of the game5 -
Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Procs don't scale from raw stats.
If you want to increase a procs damage you need percentage amps from either Champion Points, Class Passives, or (de)buffs such as Minor Berserk, or Vulnerability.
The base damage for a full Zaan beam is 46440. Halve that for Battle Spirit and the base damage is 23220. If you are a full defensive build, there is no way that that is going to hit you for 20k.
The set is powerful, but it is nowhere near as strong as people seem to think it is.Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds6 -
Wrubius_Coronaria✭✭✭✭✭I agree, I have noticed Caluurion hurt a lot, it's the same as viper was before its nerf for changing it in a dot. Procs sets were ok now with the nerfs, bu the olds problems are back now with these 2 sets.5
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Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ugh, another nerf Zaan thread? Can the forums stop calling for nerfs to everything under the sun?
Why do people always exaggerate so hard when it comes to nerfs?
The overperforming things in this game need to be balanced and this is the small minority of things but they ruin the balance of the rest of the game
Every time we get patch notes there are a slew of nerfs (usually to magDK because I guess they've taken the place of NBs of olde). Zaan isn't imbalanced and has clear, straightforward counters, and Caluurion's is a set with no flat mag or mag recov, so the rest of the armor now has to compensate. It is a set whose wearers have no choice but to flee if they don't kill you the first time around because the set is purely burst, and mitigated burst at that in PvP.0 -
Mazbt✭✭✭✭"The amount of free damage procs give you is too much and needs to scale with your stats."
Agree with this part especiallyMazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main
Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden
- many others
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Fantasia1 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Proc sets should have a maximum damage tooltip that can be achieved from either magicka/stamina or spell/weapon damage.
Start taking away from those stats and the tooltip should drop as well. There should not be a minimum damage tooltip.Edited by brandonv516 on February 23, 2018 12:19AM0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ugh, another nerf Zaan thread? Can the forums stop calling for nerfs to everything under the sun?
Why do people always exaggerate so hard when it comes to nerfs?
The overperforming things in this game need to be balanced and this is the small minority of things but they ruin the balance of the rest of the game
Every time we get patch notes there are a slew of nerfs (usually to magDK because I guess they've taken the place of NBs of olde). Zaan isn't imbalanced and has clear, straightforward counters, and Caluurion's is a set with no flat mag or mag recov, so the rest of the armor now has to compensate. It is a set whose wearers have no choice but to flee if they don't kill you the first time around because the set is purely burst, and mitigated burst at that in PvP.
Magdk got 2 bugs fixed and 2 buffs for pvp (talon synergy + better sustain with whip spam) along with many buffs over the last months, they are not even close to be bad or anything.
Who got nerf afternoon nerf is stamdk not magdk. Also NB received more meaningful buffs than any other class in the game which makes magnb strong and stamnb overperfoming in pvp.
Viper has the exact same 2,3,4 bonuses as Caluurion’s and i can't remember people running away after it failed, also you have more than one set and mundus, food and enchantments are a key part of your offence
Zaan has counterplay that is easily countered by the wearer he can use snares, roots and gapclosers to stay close to you and always remember kids, gapclosers always close the gap even when you dodge2 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yeah. I agree.
It scales of damage modifiers fine. But the base should be decided by something like 7K ESP/EWP. So a little more than 40k mag/stam and 3k wp average. Which means it'd actually be a little stronger in PvE as ZOS wanted. But worse in PvP unless specced into damage.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
PlagueSD✭✭✭✭✭
✭Want to fix "proc sets" in PvP? I have the answer. DON'T ALLOW ARMOR SETS TO PROC IN PvP!!
There, fixed...and I can still have my armor procs so I can faceroll PvE content.1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ugh, another nerf Zaan thread? Can the forums stop calling for nerfs to everything under the sun?
Why do people always exaggerate so hard when it comes to nerfs?
The overperforming things in this game need to be balanced and this is the small minority of things but they ruin the balance of the rest of the game
Every time we get patch notes there are a slew of nerfs (usually to magDK because I guess they've taken the place of NBs of olde). Zaan isn't imbalanced and has clear, straightforward counters, and Caluurion's is a set with no flat mag or mag recov, so the rest of the armor now has to compensate. It is a set whose wearers have no choice but to flee if they don't kill you the first time around because the set is purely burst, and mitigated burst at that in PvP.
Magdk got 2 bugs fixed and 2 buffs for pvp (talon synergy + better sustain with whip spam) along with many buffs over the last months, they are not even close to be bad or anything.
Who got nerf afternoon nerf is stamdk not magdk. Also NB received more meaningful buffs than any other class in the game which makes magnb strong and stamnb overperfoming in pvp.
Viper has the exact same 2,3,4 bonuses as Caluurion’s and i can't remember people running away after it failed, also you have more than one set and mundus, food and enchantments are a key part of your offence
Zaan has counterplay that is easily countered by the wearer he can use snares, roots and gapclosers to stay close to you and always remember kids, gapclosers always close the gap even when you dodge
On zaan. It is really easily counterable. Use mist, roll, run, purge etc. I hate it since its useless almost instantly and I am slapped with a 18s min cooldown.
MagDK did get some buffs, and also some nerfs. But the higher offbalance, and thus exploiter is noticable and more consistantly frequent whips, (No lightning walls or from interrupts, which made it more frequent pre patch) The heal is also a buff, again if not using a lightning build, but I feel like it will be reverted.
Dodge is a definite nerf, despite being a bug fix it is still a nerf. I have had to swap out talons for offense in many circumstances since it just means that my whip will be instadodged. (Testing the maim morph for some defense against multiple targets.)
Talons synergy I wouldn't count as a buff, DK issues are solo anyway. Sustain is the same. Since if its dodged, that is a loss of a setup, is that made up by the extra offbalance time, kind of. The window to re cast from the initial offbalance is actually quite low. You have 1s. So if you are vs many, out of range etc you probably won't get to re whip and will have to recast.
As for stam. RIP. They don't even have 7th anymore.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »Eso combat takes no skill
Then why are you still a background artist in 1vX clips?
I wouldn't have laughed so hard if I hadn't recently found myself on the losing end of a 1vX - wherein I helped play the part of X...talk about standing in stupid, ugh...thankfully I don't believe my poor performance was documented...
didn't they make it so that any proc damage couldn't get the crit bonus...it's just the flat value halved...
at least 20k spell/physical resistance seems to be the norm...
I usually don't really take notice until something on my death recap is over 10k (or, if the same 5-7k lethal arrow hit me 5 times in a row
)...
I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for them when the patch hits the consoles (particularly the red, blood sucking devil beam)...
always some new fun toy for folks to play with...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ugh, another nerf Zaan thread? Can the forums stop calling for nerfs to everything under the sun?
We get that some people like it when their Armour does the work.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.4 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Procs don't scale from raw stats.
If you want to increase a procs damage you need percentage amps from either Champion Points, Class Passives, or (de)buffs such as Minor Berserk, or Vulnerability.
The base damage for a full Zaan beam is 46440. Halve that for Battle Spirit and the base damage is 23220. If you are a full defensive build, there is no way that that is going to hit you for 20k.
The set is powerful, but it is nowhere near as strong as people seem to think it is.
BRAINS yay!
More of this pls Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
Datthaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »Eso combat takes no skill
Then why are you still a background artist in 1vX clips?
Lol oh snap0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »Eso combat takes no skill
Then why are you still a background artist in 1vX clips?
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xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭ugh, another nerf Zaan thread? Can the forums stop calling for nerfs to everything under the sun?
Why do people always exaggerate so hard when it comes to nerfs?
The overperforming things in this game need to be balanced and this is the small minority of things but they ruin the balance of the rest of the game
Every time we get patch notes there are a slew of nerfs (usually to magDK because I guess they've taken the place of NBs of olde). Zaan isn't imbalanced and has clear, straightforward counters, and Caluurion's is a set with no flat mag or mag recov, so the rest of the armor now has to compensate. It is a set whose wearers have no choice but to flee if they don't kill you the first time around because the set is purely burst, and mitigated burst at that in PvP.
oh no no, they havent replaced nightblades, we're just at the point where if we're nerfed anymore nobody would play NB xD DKs are just catching us up STAY STRONG DRAGON KNIGHTS! Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
Datthaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zaan is not op, it's not a free insta proc like tremor scale or viper used to be and it can't crit. It's a dot and honestly is more of a gimic than anything. I mean has any of you calling for a nerf actually farm this set and try it like I have? Or are you just crying because thats what people on the forums do?4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So it took ZOS two major updates to fix Earthgore. It'll probably take about the same amount of time to fix their new proc sets. Just enough time to make sure everyone's played the new DLC in order to get them.1 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just make procs scale the same way as abilities... That way in PvE you'd still have VERY strong procs, but in PvP they will be much weaker since speccing only into damage won't get you very far.@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »So it took ZOS two major updates to fix Earthgore. It'll probably take about the same amount of time to fix their new proc sets. Just enough time to make sure everyone's played the new DLC in order to get them.
Earthgore is by no way fixed or balanced
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zaan is not op, it's not a free insta proc like tremor scale or viper used to be and it can't crit. It's a dot and honestly is more of a gimic than anything. I mean has any of you calling for a nerf actually farm this set and try it like I have? Or are you just crying because thats what people on the forums do?
Yes i have, and not only on live but also on PTS and it is overpowered, there is nothing gimicy about a set that deals more damage than an ultimate2 -
Vermintide✭✭✭✭Same as any of the proc sets, Zaan is fun and feels overpowered- When the planets align and put you in the right situation for it to work. Other than that, you are just sacrificing a useful 5 piece bonus for moderate damage that depends on RNG (unless you're a SnB troll build but that's another matter).
I used it for a couple of BGs last night and it worked great for the first couple of kills, just cheesing people down spamming light attacks. But then after my opponents figured out I was wearing it, they made sure to stop me getting in range, and that was the end of that. No more Zaan.
I'm still gonna work on a build to work around it so I can form a real opinion, I can see it making my heavy armour magblade dream viable again perhaps.1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have mixed feelings about Calurions, it has it's strengths and weakness. I think, it could be toned down a little.
Zaan on the other hand is nowhere near to be OP. The obvious counterplay, to move away, works mostly on paper but not in practice, I agree with OP on that. However, Zaan has tons of other reliable counterplays.
1) Purge is the strongest one. Zaan procs to be instantly purged and put on 18sec cooldown. What an overpowered set.
2) Streak. Nerf sorc because he is immune to Zaan.
3) Knockbacks are more reliable in this than they might seem.
4) I haven't tested this, but judging from attack type (a beam type attack), it can be broken by LoSing.Edited by Olupajmibanan on February 23, 2018 1:33PM2