Procs and Scaling and their impact on PvP imbalances

Eirella

I wish monster sets, at least, would have separate effects for pve and pvp

BohnT

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Calurions, it has it's strengths and weakness. I think, it coupd be toned down a little.

Zaan on the other hand is nowhere near to be OP. The obvious counterplay, to move away, works mostly on paper but not in practice, I agree with OP on that. However, Zaan has tons of other reliable counterplays.

And what are these reliable counterplays?
LoS? Not working
Cloak? 1 class has access to it
Block? the discussion about this happened more than once on this and it's not doable for 80% of all builds
Heal? Good luck outhealing Zaan alone the wearer won't do anything when Zaan procs right?
Purge? Limited to one class aswell and ridiculously unreliable, purged 2 times and couldn't remove zaan

So which of these will you do a seconds before respawning?

Rianai

Datthaw wrote: »

Zaan is not op, it's not a free insta proc like tremor scale or viper used to be and it can't crit. It's a dot and honestly is more of a gimic than anything. I mean has any of you calling for a nerf actually farm this set and try it like I have? Or are you just crying because thats what people on the forums do?

It is a DoT that can deal burst like dmg. 23k dmg in 2 seconds (3 ticks) is a thing ...
Doesn't matter that it is rng (which makes it actually even worse, pvp shouldn't be about pure luck) or that it needs some investment to deal this much dmg. Set procs shouldn't be able to kill players. PvP means Players vs Player after all, not Player vs Armor.

LeagueTroll

I don’t think it is balanced either.

Blobsky

Sixty5 wrote: »

Procs don't scale from raw stats.

If you want to increase a procs damage you need percentage amps from either Champion Points, Class Passives, or (de)buffs such as Minor Berserk, or Vulnerability.

The base damage for a full Zaan beam is 46440. Halve that for Battle Spirit and the base damage is 23220. If you are a full defensive build, there is no way that that is going to hit you for 20k.

The set is powerful, but it is nowhere near as strong as people seem to think it is.

I took 20k from a STAMINA sorc on my MagDk heavy NoCP, died in 2 seconds, and I certainly know what Im doing. It is a joke 1v1

BohnT

Blobsky wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Procs don't scale from raw stats.

If you want to increase a procs damage you need percentage amps from either Champion Points, Class Passives, or (de)buffs such as Minor Berserk, or Vulnerability.

The base damage for a full Zaan beam is 46440. Halve that for Battle Spirit and the base damage is 23220. If you are a full defensive build, there is no way that that is going to hit you for 20k.

The set is powerful, but it is nowhere near as strong as people seem to think it is.

I took 20k from a STAMINA sorc on my MagDk heavy NoCP, died in 2 seconds, and I certainly know what Im doing. It is a joke 1v1

You haven't been zerged with it yet? That's where the true fun starts

Melchior

My opinion: need to stop constantly changing the rules of the game. Yes, some players are very strong. Yes, some players are weak. This is life. But who prevents weak players from joining, and destroying a strong player?

Ch4mpTW

Rianai wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Zaan is not op, it's not a free insta proc like tremor scale or viper used to be and it can't crit. It's a dot and honestly is more of a gimic than anything. I mean has any of you calling for a nerf actually farm this set and try it like I have? Or are you just crying because thats what people on the forums do?

It is a DoT that can deal burst like dmg. 23k dmg in 2 seconds (3 ticks) is a thing ...
Doesn't matter that it is rng (which makes it actually even worse, pvp shouldn't be about pure luck) or that it needs some investment to deal this much dmg. Set procs shouldn't be able to kill players. PvP means Players vs Player after all, not Player vs Armor.

@Rianai Tell that to the drones of LagBlades plaguing ESO on all platforms; running amuck in Selene/Velidreth and Eternal Hunt. But let me guess, TrashBlades get a pass. Am I right?

Rianai

Did i ever defend those proc sets? I don't think so. But it is still a difference if it is a 6-8k proc or a 20k+ proc (and Eternal Hunt isn't even rng based).

Lexxypwns

Rianai wrote: »

Did i ever defend those proc sets? I don't think so. But it is still a difference if it is a 6-8k proc or a 20k+ proc (and Eternal Hunt isn't even rng based).

Landing hunt offensively is a skill shot

WakeYourGhost

BohnT wrote: »

...unskilled players could easily one shot top tier players with a little bit of luck...

Every time I see a statement like that, I always wonder if the person who posted it considers Themselves to be said Top Tier players?
Do they indeed think they are the Top of the list?
-Do they use Add-ons to help tell them when to press buttons?
-Do they have trouble adjusting for the Shiny New thing when it's introduced to PvP?
-Do they call for Nerfs to any new thing introduced?
-Do they fear Procs and other similar RNG based Mechanics?
-Do they complain about a single Class or Set being "OP" without themselves using said class or set simply because it has killed them multiple times?

If Yes to any of those, I think they are not Top Tier, and don't really know much about what a Top Tier player may think or have to say on the situation.

Please, for all that is holy, at least stop trying to frame your desire to not be killed by other players as some kind of Skill+Status thing. It's really not.
Adapt or die.

ArchMikem

You take our Crits away, and now this?

ak_pvp

Blobsky wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Procs don't scale from raw stats.

If you want to increase a procs damage you need percentage amps from either Champion Points, Class Passives, or (de)buffs such as Minor Berserk, or Vulnerability.

The base damage for a full Zaan beam is 46440. Halve that for Battle Spirit and the base damage is 23220. If you are a full defensive build, there is no way that that is going to hit you for 20k.

The set is powerful, but it is nowhere near as strong as people seem to think it is.

I took 20k from a STAMINA sorc on my MagDk heavy NoCP, died in 2 seconds, and I certainly know what Im doing. It is a joke 1v1

Was your gear broke or smth?

I ate the skill for the full 6s duration on my magDK vampire. By no means minmaxed. Heavy shackle, desert rose valkyn, so no lucky bloodspawn. 18K damage. Had I not had a relic, I would have misted.

If a good build locks you down then sure OP. If not, then it's kind of niche and wastable.

ak_pvp

BohnT wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Calurions, it has it's strengths and weakness. I think, it coupd be toned down a little.

Zaan on the other hand is nowhere near to be OP. The obvious counterplay, to move away, works mostly on paper but not in practice, I agree with OP on that. However, Zaan has tons of other reliable counterplays.

And what are these reliable counterplays?
LoS? Not working
Cloak? 1 class has access to it
Block? the discussion about this happened more than once on this and it's not doable for 80% of all builds
Heal? Good luck outhealing Zaan alone the wearer won't do anything when Zaan procs right?
Purge? Limited to one class aswell and ridiculously unreliable, purged 2 times and couldn't remove zaan

So which of these will you do a seconds before respawning?

Cloak, purge or streak should limit the damage to 1 or 2 ticks. Mist would reduce by 75. If all else fails, cc and run/roll.

Ragnarock41

Aaaand people are defending broken zaan set, like how they defended viper.

Garbage players need garbage cheese to be successful, thats how MMOs die, by catering to casuals.

Juhasow

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

I havent played for months. Show me a clip

Then why the hell are you on the forums?

Well since I must explain myself to your highness I like the outfit system, and when zos decides to unnerf Dk passives Ill play again. However this time Im not gonna have 360ms

Yeah I also think internet after 2028 should be better for everyone

Blobsky wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Procs don't scale from raw stats.

If you want to increase a procs damage you need percentage amps from either Champion Points, Class Passives, or (de)buffs such as Minor Berserk, or Vulnerability.

The base damage for a full Zaan beam is 46440. Halve that for Battle Spirit and the base damage is 23220. If you are a full defensive build, there is no way that that is going to hit you for 20k.

The set is powerful, but it is nowhere near as strong as people seem to think it is.

I took 20k from a STAMINA sorc on my MagDk heavy NoCP, died in 2 seconds, and I certainly know what Im doing. It is a joke 1v1

1v1 enviroment in ESO is overall a joke.

BohnT

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

...unskilled players could easily one shot top tier players with a little bit of luck...

Every time I see a statement like that, I always wonder if the person who posted it considers Themselves to be said Top Tier players?
Do they indeed think they are the Top of the list?

I'm surely not Top of the list, I'm not tryharding enough to get there and use cheesy builds, poisons, procs etc. But i see myself as good enough to talk about balance a thing 90% of the people here shouldn't do due to either being biased, bad or just stupid
-Do they use Add-ons to help tell them when to press buttons?
No, i know exactly what to press and when to use it, that's called skill, no better player needs Miats etc for PvP
-Do they have trouble adjusting for the Shiny New thing when it's introduced to PvP?
I don't have any issues adjusting to balancedthings or things you can actually adapt to things like Poisons, Free Procs, bugged CC's, overperfoming Xv1 mechanics are things you can't adapt to due to them being unbalanced
-Do they call for Nerfs to any new thing introduced?
No only to the unbalanced things
-Do they fear Procs and other similar RNG based Mechanics?
Yes because they remove skill from the fight making it possible to lose against a worse player due to him being lucky
-Do they complain about a single Class or Set being "OP" without themselves using said class or set simply because it has killed them multiple times?
I play each and all classes in this game and when i complain or want things to be changed then because I see it when playing myself and when encountering it, also i test all sets on PTS and live for a long time to measure their strength, a thing most people on the forums don't do
If Yes to any of those, I think they are not Top Tier, and don't really know much about what a Top Tier player may think or have to say on the situation.

Please, for all that is holy, at least stop trying to frame your desire to not be killed by other players as some kind of Skill+Status thing. It's really not.
Adapt or die.

If there is no skill involved in killing tell me, why are there top tier players or above average players?
Are they just lucky, or are they all "macro cheater exploit hackers"? (This is what i hear after winning a 1v5)

BohnT

ArchMikem wrote: »

You take our Crits away, and now this?

PvE is responsible for the crit nerf, do you people just see something and immediately say "PvP is responsible for the nerfs" ?

Let's make a list of things that were changed due to PvE and PvP:
Jesus Beam got nerfed because you could stop your rotation at 35% or insta nuke people in pvp

Sustain nerfs were done because both PvE and PvP were all around stacking as much damage as possible while ignoring each an all sustain mechanics, in PvE this also lead to simply ignoring 90% of all mechanics because Bosses died so quickly

Proc set crit nerf was done because Procs gave everyone good DPS even with a crappy rotation just by slotting them. Also the nerf was completely useless in pvp as crits don't matter as much when you're running with 3k impen, the problem was that the damage was free, very high and unavoidable.

BigBadVolk

Why not give some sets the VD effect I mean some only procs on player enemies, while others more pve oriented sets only proc on mobs and bosses??? and only nerf them if they become used on every class, cause imo thats when a set is truly op

Qbiken

BigBadVolk wrote: »

Why not give some sets the VD effect I mean some only procs on player enemies, while others more pve oriented sets only proc on mobs and bosses??? and only nerf them if they become used on every class, cause imo thats when a set is truly op

You mean like Mechanical Acuity

But jokes aside, the VD treatment isn´t a bad idea.

Sergykid

yeah, i agree, sets should scale better from stats. A tank should not deal same damage with a proc set as a glass cannon.

Ragnaroek93

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

Ragnarock41

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

some of the sets are so ridicilous that even on stamina toons they outperform everything else.

*cough Zaan *cough

BohnT

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

some of the sets are so ridicilous that even on stamina toons they outperform everything else.

*cough Zaan *cough

Already met a stamnb using it, so much fun NOT
You get incapped, can't break free and get Zaan on top.
Although it's better on magnb with cripple and lotus fan and incap.

Ragnarock41

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

some of the sets are so ridicilous that even on stamina toons they outperform everything else.

*cough Zaan *cough

Already met a stamnb using it, so much fun NOT
You get incapped, can't break free and get Zaan on top.
Although it's better on magnb with cripple and lotus fan and incap.

Its a nightmare on magblades.
They are already too strong without it, and you just can't run away from one.

I think zos thought this set would give magDks/magplars more dps but they forgot everyone else and their moms can use this broken abomination aswell.

So, yet another bandaid fix that makes things worse, I wonder where did I see this before

proc crit nerfs
battle spirit
befoul
aoe caps
...

nvm...

BohnT

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

some of the sets are so ridicilous that even on stamina toons they outperform everything else.

*cough Zaan *cough

Already met a stamnb using it, so much fun NOT
You get incapped, can't break free and get Zaan on top.
Although it's better on magnb with cripple and lotus fan and incap.

Its a nightmare on magblades.
They are already too strong without it, and you just can't run away from one.

Nah magblade is totally fine like really, you can't say that about stamnb or Zaan though

Ragnaroek93

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

some of the sets are so ridicilous that even on stamina toons they outperform everything else.

*cough Zaan *cough

Already met a stamnb using it, so much fun NOT
You get incapped, can't break free and get Zaan on top.
Although it's better on magnb with cripple and lotus fan and incap.

Its a nightmare on magblades.
They are already too strong without it, and you just can't run away from one.

Nah magblade is totally fine like really, you can't say that about stamnb or Zaan though

Stamnb is fine too :P A bit too strong when Cloak isn't countered and a bit too weak if Cloak is countered.

Minalan

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

some of the sets are so ridicilous that even on stamina toons they outperform everything else.

*cough Zaan *cough

Already met a stamnb using it, so much fun NOT
You get incapped, can't break free and get Zaan on top.
Although it's better on magnb with cripple and lotus fan and incap.

Yeah Sorcs have to run defensive rune now. And spam it. Between incap and gap closer spam, you’re not escaping that full 20K damage.

As usual, sets are what destroys the fun in PVP. The ZOS set designers aren’t very smart people...

Ragnarock41

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

some of the sets are so ridicilous that even on stamina toons they outperform everything else.

*cough Zaan *cough

Already met a stamnb using it, so much fun NOT
You get incapped, can't break free and get Zaan on top.
Although it's better on magnb with cripple and lotus fan and incap.

Its a nightmare on magblades.
They are already too strong without it, and you just can't run away from one.

Nah magblade is totally fine like really, you can't say that about stamnb or Zaan though

Stamnb is fine too :P A bit too strong when Cloak isn't countered and a bit too weak if Cloak is countered.

Its carry a detect pot or nbs will eat you alive basically. Thats how it works in open world, the place where nobody gives a damn about fighting fair. The place where you are alone against 5+ nightblades yet they still decide to abuse cloakspam on one dude, then hate whisper when they die

BohnT

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Thankfully these sets are magicka based so the community can't blame stamina (and stamnb) for this procnonsense anymore. Just prey that magicka won't get nerfed as much as stamina because of proc sets.

some of the sets are so ridicilous that even on stamina toons they outperform everything else.

*cough Zaan *cough

Already met a stamnb using it, so much fun NOT
You get incapped, can't break free and get Zaan on top.
Although it's better on magnb with cripple and lotus fan and incap.

Its a nightmare on magblades.
They are already too strong without it, and you just can't run away from one.

Nah magblade is totally fine like really, you can't say that about stamnb or Zaan though

Stamnb is fine too :P A bit too strong when Cloak isn't countered and a bit too weak if Cloak is countered.

Stamnb would be fine once they remove the CC from incap :P
I don't think cloak is op or anything it's on the strong side of abilities and it's class defining however cloak with the burst potential gained through incap cc+will and SA is too much