A call for undaunted certified group finder tab!

BejaProphet

TOPIC: Woes of unprepared players in vet dungeons.

ME: I'm a 660+ (don't know what I'll be when you read this) tank. I'm light hearted but serious about being the best tank I can. I am not a group snob. When I get a bad group I actually see that as a fun test of my tanking skills. Point being, this is not coming from some elite group snob mentality. My standards to group with me is very low.

MY MOMENT OF CRISIS: I'm starting a vet city of ash 2 group and before we ever make it to the badlands portal I stop and watch my TEAM have an epic 60-90 second struggle with one of those little grabby plants on the path. Literally. They just couldn't kill it for a seriously long time, this was after I had hit it with a torug boosted infused crusher enchant, on a piercing taunt strike. I finally sheathed my blade and just watched them fight it. I'm sitting there thinking how in seventeen hours when we make it to skoria that I'm going to get to watch them try this on the boss as he plunges us into lava. I stick around for a few more trash fights just to make sure the DPS in our group aren't just being silly, but no, its real. I leave as politely as I can. I wait my time for re-queu and get placed in same group. This time one of the DPS has left and a shiny new 690 is there. I figure what the heck maybe this dude will change it. I watch him spam nothing but flurry for the entire fight with the guardians of the gate into the badlands, and I still think with all my tank gear I could have out DPS'd my whole team. Around 15 minutes later when the guardians are finally dead I leave.

MY IDEA: Have a second group queue for veteran only where you have to get certified for your position. You'd have a normal dungeon wait list, a veteran one, and a undaunted certified veteran one. Once every two weeks or so, you have to do a fun little quest to be allowed into the certified list. You'd certify for any specific role with a given character. You could make it so fun to do even! You go to a nice little shiny arena where the undaunted folk test you to give you their approval. Tanks could have the task of keeping mobs out of a target circle where your only task is to taunt the mobs that try to go there and not die as they hit you. They'd have huge health so you have to take the beating rather than kill them. Simple matter of can you taunt and are you made of paper. Healer has to keep a couple NPC's alive as they stand in a damage circle. DPS literally have to hit a target dummy and do a certain damage amount in a time limit. I'm NOT talking about Maelstrom difficulty here, make it really easy. Make the DPS pull off a mere 8k dps or something. Make the tank show he can taunt and hold three mobs for all I care. But make sure they at least are remotely aware of their roll. And it would be FUN !! You could make a cool neat little story process of it where the undaunted do a simple skill check before throwing you to the wolves. Anybody could still play normal anytime, anybody could still do the veteran anytime. But we'd have a finder where we are dealing with certified mercenaries knowing we are getting people at least vaguely aware of their role. End rant.

VaranisArano

We keep asking ZOS for some sort of training for dungeon roles, they give us the skill advisor with build for the various roles. Hopefully that helps new players, but it does little to help those players already grouping for vet dungeons.

Turelus

The best way to teach new players is for more people to get them in guilds where they can make friends and learn.

People can often be hostile towards advice in a PUG because they might have bad experiences with player berating them or being hostile due to lack of knowledge in the past.

As VaranisArano said at least ZOS has the skill planner in place now which helps guide players towards roles and builds, but we can't expect ZOS to write tutorials and full working guides for everything in the game. They'll do what they can (as they've shown) but it's up to the games community to make it a place where players learn and improve from one another.

Cadbury

I've said this before, but I'd love it if ZOS implemented a system similar to FF14's Hall of the Novice and Mentor system.

BejaProphet

Turelus, while there may be some merit to what you are saying in a big picture sort of sense, but I don't think its actionable advice. For example as I group with these people earlier, my answer is that I am suppose to get them in a guild and nurture them into skilled players? It sounds wonderful, but pure honesty here, that is a very time consuming solution. Whether for me, or for somebody else. And I do try to help where I can, and I in turn have been helped. but...

The community is in pretty solid agreement that something needs to be done mechanically on ZOS end. Whatever that something might be. I hope the leveling system improves it. Because in the end I'm not talking about he jerks one occasionally has to deal with. I'm talking about what are probably wonderful people who don't have the time to meta game. And most of them are probably in the vet dungeon because its faster to apply for both in group finder, and they are just simply trying to get to play. I feel for them. But if the answer to this problem finally comes one day, I do not think we will look back and say "Wow, that got solved from a massively charitable player base organizing, guilding, and training the community."

And the problem isn't their skill. My 10 year old daughter plays with me. Her skill is nonexistent, but we can play and she can have fun with me. There is content suitable for her. Heck, I run my daughter through normal dungeons with me. Nobody should give my ten year old daughter crap for lack of skill. The problem is people going into veteran dungeons with the skill of my ten year old daughter and three random people have to deal with it.

Turelus

The problem is no one wants to teach these players, not in all these threads complaining about how bad PUGs are.

Also all the players who complain always seem to be unwilling to join a guild or create social groups which then can do dungeons with themselves.

As for ZOS doing something mechanically they've reset what dungeons can be done at what levels when you queue, they've added a level up helper, a skill guide. At some point the community is going to have to accept that if they want players to get better they can't keep shunning, kicking and expecting them to do that without any help.

Some of it can start with something as simple as a friendly conversation and directing someone towards the forums or a YouTuber (preferably a newbie friendly one like MissBizz rather than Alcast or end game progression players).

I understand the frustrations of weak performing groups, I've been in them myself but I personally don't feel the solution is to keep the good players away from the new players.

BejaProphet

Turelus wrote: »

I understand the frustrations of weak performing groups, I've been in them myself but I personally don't feel the solution is to keep the good players away from the new players.

This one statement of yours gives me pause. You are probably right.

However, I do disagree with a much. I think the ESO community that I personally have been involved in are great towards less skilled players. I've witnessed and been involved in dungeon runs that take 2 hours that should have taken 25 minutes, and we stick it out to explain teach and pay forward the people that have helped us. I think a lot of what you are wanting is going on. VERY often when we do this and we are patient, the new people ask questions and we do exactly what you are discussing. We point them to resources. This is why in my original post I tried to clarify this isn't coming from some elitist view point.

But I will reiterate this point. The problem is not their lack of skill. This is a video game, not the military. I don't expect people to dedicate themselves to ESO and improving at it. They are NOT obliged to improve or be skilled, nor are they inferior as a human being because they don't play a game well. The problem is that they are jumping into the deep end because the wait list is too long for DPS on normal dungeons. ZOS has indeed tried to take some steps to fix this, but unfortunately the limiting factor is skill, not level. I saw a level 27 make toon leveling look last season. And I saw a 690 struggle with trash.

But as I said, your one statement carries weight with me, and my suggestion might not be the best one.

Turelus

Considering it's a high CP who's not performing it could be we're looking at other issues, the fact there is a push that everyone has to be high CP (enforced by low CP being kicked) but no push on people learning as they earn that CP.

I've seen/heard it myself where players have joined the game and read how to get max level (grinding) because they hear that's the only way to have fun or play the game.

I fully support ZOS adding things which teach new or unknowledgeable players. If the certification you spoke of was a requirement for joining vet queues I could be a little more on board with it, the idea players have to have learnt an amount of the game to join them. This might even encourage them to go and look up how to do what they need to do.

I just sadly can't get onboard with something which let's the few wannabe elitist jerks (not meaning you at all here) separate themselves from everyone else they don't deem worthy. They already have an option for that and it's called a guild.

idk

I find.the tab for finding a group of well prepared players. It’s the guild tab and it works great.

Thing is Zos will not put battlers in GF as being discussed because the first issue is who’s standards will be used.

Those complaining about their GF group were part of the group that they’re complaining about.

kringled_1

idk wrote: »

I find.the tab for finding a group of well prepared players. It’s the guild tab and it works great.

Thing is Zos will not put battlers in GF as being discussed because the first issue is who’s standards will be used.

Those complaining about their GF group were part of the group that they’re complaining about.

This last sentence doesn't even make sense. Yes, the people complaining also belong to the same 'group' as the ones they are complaining about, people who use group finder. This is mostly meaningless, and irrelevant to the main point here, which is that some of the people who use group finder are woefully underprepared to pull their own weight in the job they signed up for (whichever role it might be), for reasons of gear, ignorance, stubbornness, or whatever.
And while the advice to look to your guilds isn't bad advice, it's far easier to say it, than for every player to find a set of guilds that is a good match for them and their every interest, activity level, and schedule.

code65536

This is why there needs to be in-game damage meters.

How can people be expected to know that their DPS needs work if they have no idea (1) what a reasonable level of DPS is and (2) what their current level of DPS is?

Leandor

Just make the "undaunted certified" queue to require either a no-death or a speed-run achievement for that particular dungeon, accountwide check of course.

Feanor

code65536 wrote: »

This is why there needs to be in-game damage meters.

How can people be expected to know that their DPS needs work if they have no idea (1) what a reasonable level of DPS is and (2) what their current level of DPS is?

You’d be called a filthy elitist for the suggestion by most people on here. I’d agree with you though. Getting better means you know you’re doing it wrong in the first place.

VaranisArano

code65536 wrote: »

This is why there needs to be in-game damage meters.

How can people be expected to know that their DPS needs work if they have no idea (1) what a reasonable level of DPS is and (2) what their current level of DPS is?

So...

There are these things called Target Dummies and when you kill them, they tell you your average damage per second.

So players find out the level of reasonable DPS (probably from someone in a dungeon going "Dude, no, quit snipe spamming, oh forget it just look up a rotation argh!") then find a target dummy (3/5 of my guilds have one in the guild house, so I've got easy access) and kill it to find out how bad their DPS is.

Then said player gets to either shrug and say its fine and continue to be the bane of PUGs or sits down and starts researching builds and rotations and starts improving.

Either way, the solution you ask for is already in game, no addons required.

Asardes

I remember doing random veteran dungeons back to back between Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood patches as tank, because there were few ways to gain experience back then, I needed the monster sets and I also wanted to gain CP and learn to play the game better. For some reason City of Ash 2 popped up a lot, on some days it was a full 1/3 of assignments - probably the world renowned ZoS RNG at work. Back then it was by far the hardest non-DLC dungeon. In absolute terms it was about as hard as it is now, but the others were much easier, and people didn't have a lot of CP, many of the sets we have now weren't introduced or scaled to CP160 so it was relatively much tougher. When I got in an saw the rest of the group engaged in an epic two minute battle against the tigers at the start I knew it was time to part ways. Luckily back then there wasn't any queue penalty, so I could ditch as many groups as I wanted. I still don't understand why people who probably struggle killing overland trash mobs queue for veteran dungeons. Probably they all expect to meet godly players who will carry them trough, and, obviously, they end up with scrubs like themselves most of the times

code65536

VaranisArano wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

This is why there needs to be in-game damage meters.

How can people be expected to know that their DPS needs work if they have no idea (1) what a reasonable level of DPS is and (2) what their current level of DPS is?

So...

There are these things called Target Dummies and when you kill them, they tell you your average damage per second.

So players find out the level of reasonable DPS (probably from someone in a dungeon going "Dude, no, quit snipe spamming, oh forget it just look up a rotation argh!") then find a target dummy (3/5 of my guilds have one in the guild house, so I've got easy access) and kill it to find out how bad their DPS is.

Then said player gets to either shrug and say its fine and continue to be the bane of PUGs or sits down and starts researching builds and rotations and starts improving.

Either way, the solution you ask for is already in game, no addons required.

Target dummies were a step in the right direction, of course. But anyone motivated enough to get a target dummy (which is not cheap, BTW) will likely have combat addons too.

The people spamming light attacks or using a single skill or DPSing with 30K health are probably not even aware of target dummies. If the default UI showed a person's DPS and what % of the group total he's doing--the most important feature of Combat Metrics--that would go a long way towards educating people about DPS. It'll give them an idea of what their "real world" DPS is like in a variety of encounters including the trash pulls that make up the bulk of any dungeon experience (which dummies can't help you with) and whether or not they are pulling their weight. And if a DPS is seeing that they're doing only 10% of the group total, then that signals to them that maybe they need to seek assistance.

There's no need for the sharing of DPS. Awareness, however, will go a long way.

VaranisArano

code65536 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

This is why there needs to be in-game damage meters.

How can people be expected to know that their DPS needs work if they have no idea (1) what a reasonable level of DPS is and (2) what their current level of DPS is?

So...

There are these things called Target Dummies and when you kill them, they tell you your average damage per second.

So players find out the level of reasonable DPS (probably from someone in a dungeon going "Dude, no, quit snipe spamming, oh forget it just look up a rotation argh!") then find a target dummy (3/5 of my guilds have one in the guild house, so I've got easy access) and kill it to find out how bad their DPS is.

Then said player gets to either shrug and say its fine and continue to be the bane of PUGs or sits down and starts researching builds and rotations and starts improving.

Either way, the solution you ask for is already in game, no addons required.

Target dummies were a step in the right direction, of course. But anyone motivated enough to get a target dummy (which is not cheap, BTW) will likely have combat addons too.

The people spamming light attacks or using a single skill or DPSing with 30K health are probably not even aware of target dummies. If the default UI showed a person's DPS and what % of the group total he's doing--the most important feature of Combat Metrics--that would go a long way towards educating people about DPS. It'll give them an idea of what their "real world" DPS is like in a variety of encounters including the trash pulls that make up the bulk of any dungeon experience (which dummies can't help you with) and whether or not they are pulling their weight. And if a DPS is seeing that they're doing only 10% of the group total, then that signals to them that maybe they need to seek assistance.

There's no need for the sharing of DPS. Awareness, however, will go a long way.

I pointed out the target dummies because, as far as I know, those are the only options for console players to measure DPS. If ZOS put a DPS counter into the base game UI, no doubt console players would rejoice, but so far they seem to have no desire to do so.

Therefore, the answer to "How can people be expected to know that their DPS needs work if they have no idea (1) what a reasonable level of DPS is and (2) what their current level of DPS is?"

Is that the only in-game way to tell your DPS available on all platforms is the target dummy (not cheap,no, but I can easily access them from 3/5 of my guilds, two of which are pure trading guilds, so I imagine they aren't completely out of reach for most players). An in-game DPS counter for encounters would be lovely for consoles but doesn't exist yet.

Nestor

They should offer up a No In Progress Que. Sure, you don't get the 100K like a purely random one, but you get 32K like subsequent runs give.

You want that sweet 100K, you gotta work with what you are given.

jarydf

A lot of this could be fixed by giving everybody a dummy as a leveling reward at say level 50.

Make it the same as the precursor dummy 330k so that the fights are long enough that they can get a couple of rotations off and see the difference generally that changing things make but short enough to not feel boring to a new person that has no dummy experience.

Maybe if that works they could make a set of 3 dummies - dps, heal and tank.

Heal could lose life over 20 seconds in a random pattern and also randomly cc, knockback or damage spike you during the 20 seconds.

Tank could need you to taunt and keep focus for 20 seconds while standing in a ring of high damage with damage spikes and heavy attacks to block.

I know 20 seconds sounds like a short time but it is about getting people started on the right path and making it an easy in.

If you cant do the 20 second fight, 5 minutes plus on a 3 million dummy is a long time to reinforce your failure / frustration and many will give up.

BejaProphet

jarydf wrote: »

I know 20 seconds sounds like a short time but it is about getting people started on the right path and making it an easy in.

This is kind of where my mind is at in this. When I started this thread I was never considering some kind of extreme standard. Certainly not no death runs like one poster mentioned. For example I was running a dungeon with a friend of a friend. I'm a tank, but wanted to let him have the role if he wanted it. I wanted him to have fun. So I asked if his DK was a tank and he said "yes." So I yielded the role to him. A few fights in I mentioned about taunting the mobs. He didn't know what a taunt was. I mean he literally was in the champion points, identifying as a tank, and didn't know that some abilities forced the monsters to target you. A testing system, or story driven introduction to roles could have at least clued that guy in to what the game even meant by tanking. He would have identified and been lumped in as a tank for a random group.

Stridig

Some of my best memories are from pug dungeon groups. There is something to be said about complete strangers who band together and struggle through to the end. Some of those folks are still on my friends list today. Having played since launch, I find it fun pugging just to pug. If i want a for sure completion I don't use dungeon finder. I feel like the game has plenty of tools for success. It's up to us if we choose to use them or not. Have fun out there!

raj72616a

if it's just FG1 EH2 etc i'd say just suck it up
but CoA2 it's impossible to carry two bad dps

i think the solution is to add a 4th role, novice or whatever, to group finder, who will be listed as dps when the group form. so underperforming players may choose to queue as noob rather than as dps.
each group may have a tank, a healer, then 2 dps or 1 dps + 1 noob, but never 2 noob.

Adernath

Oh come on guys... The dev's have way more important things to do than messing around with the DF. We have guilds, that is our undaunted certified group finder.

Just keep leaving such fail groups and let the environment teach these folks. And if you can't take it to play with low performing players occasionally, just don't do random dungeons.

Asardes

Nestor wrote: »

They should offer up a No In Progress Que. Sure, you don't get the 100K like a purely random one, but you get 32K like subsequent runs give.

You want that sweet 100K, you gotta work with what you are given.

Normal gives the same amount as veteran, so there's really no reason to queue for veteran, and risk getting a very bad group that doesn't allow you to finish and get that at all. So I really see no reason whatsoever to queue for veteran.

A few days ago I went on a Stormfist farm run with 2 other guild mates, but we couldn't find a 4th to join in guild chat, so we queued and got a random dude. He was 28 CP and got to 30 CP at the end of the dungeon. I don't even know if he did any DPS, but he was very lucky because we were pulling 80K+ as a group and nuked that place within 15 minutes. We would have gotten no death too, but he died at the last boss. But that's like 1/100 shot, usually people end up with much worse groups and can't be carried because the others expect the same.

knaveofengland

would say something along the lines you have said hold merit and should be looked into.

do think players can help who dont know like me learning and working towards new armour sets , and trying pledges .

so what i do now is anyone in guild whos doing dungeons pledges i try to help , iam not the best by far but try to help , now we have a few and recruited a few to help its just starting to help all now ,.

so helping giveing advise does make a differnce its just that players do need that new armour weapons sets, if i get them i give them free . so please help all to make a better experience for all .

adopt a tomato so he is not squishy .