A solution to racial passives.

dodgehopper_ESO

GreenHere wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.

Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.

"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!

Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.

In an RPG, your characters become legendary. In Oblivion, I could enchant gear that would allow my Breton to achieve the native fire resistance of a Dunmer or I could fortify my skill to match the base skill of a Redguard, but my Breton racial passives were what they were. In Skyrim, any magicka character can get to a high level of magicka to fuel their spells, but its the Altmer who get the biggest starting bonus.

If the root of the problem is that there are imbalances by the time we get to end-game, the answer is to adjust the benefits of racial passives so that everyone can compensate in other ways and reach approx. the same result, like my Breton having to invest in fire resistance if they want the same as a Dunmer. The answer isn't, in my opinion, to throw out or spread out the lore-based racial passives.

Another good response. I guess my question is:

Why do we all have to reach approximately the same results at endgame?

I'm trying to be open-minded, but I don't get why a Redguard should be entitled to being even almost as good as an Altmer at elemental magic damage, and the like. I don't make a Khajiit and expect to be able to dethrone Vanus Galerion as the most formidable magic wielding mortal around.

And if life worked like ESO, I wouldn't choose to be a short white man and expect to become the best NBA player of all time. I know this is a game, and blah blah blah, but I mean... I'm just struggling with the concept of wanting everyone to be able to be the best at everything. How would you balance it while maintaining the individuality of the races in Tamriel?

Because there are examples of figures who do defy the norms. Shalidor for instance confounds even a great many magically powerful Elves. I get what you're saying but I don't believe it makes entirely a lot of sense. I'd also like to note that in Morrowind I played an Argonian, a Nord and a Breton in the game. All of them managed to be fighters and mages by the end of it.

dodgehopper_ESO

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Point one - yes, this has been discussed. At length. Usually with someone suggesting people should get to cherry-pick their passives. And the gimme crowd agreeing, while the TES fans disagree, sometimes snarkily.



Point two - racial differences have -always- been a part of the elder scrolls lore. That is why many of us consider that point non-negotiable as long as it's Elder Scrolls Online...
...
...BUT!
HOW those racial perks should be represented in the game, that is a different story entirely! And one worthy of discussion I say!

Personally I would much prefer if the racial perks did not give a percentage on top of everything, but gave a flat bonus from the start, and that all such stats had a softcap, so the racial boni just let you reach the ceiling sooner instead of raising it above all others... thus they would be a big help at the start, but not matter much in the end... and any race could git gud at anything, just some races might have it easier then others... which is how I think the racial perks ought to be handled (and have been in older TES games on occasion)



Point three - instead of asking them to throw out a part of the TES lore to cater to gamers, maybe think of what other options there could be. Not changing something, but maybe adding something?

I keep suggesting "background passives", that can be done -in addition- to the racial ones... things to reflect a characters birthplace, upbringing, life before the adventuring career... like:

...someone who grew up in skyrim might have a bit of extra cold resistance from being used to it, someone who grew up in black marsh might have a bit of extra disease resistance from making it through adult age there and someone who grew up in valenwood might have some extra sneakyness from picking up forester skills as a kid;

...someone who grew up in a noble househols surrounded by tutors and libraries might have a leg up in magica, while someone who grew up helping the family business as commoner might have gained some extra stamina, and someone who grea up with exiles out in the wilds might gain a bit of extra toughness;

...someone who was a mystic scholar before adventuring might gain some spell resistance, somene who was a skilled worker might get a crafting bonus, and someone who was a petty criminal might get a pickpocket bonus;

...and so on...

...there could even be negative perks associated with this... the bookish scholar might get a penalty to vendor prices due to lack of haggling skills while the child of exiles might get increased bounty gain because the city guard has prejudices, or whatever...

Each on its own should be less then any racial perk... but they would make up for it by being freely selectable (though they might require "any race, any alliance" unlock for selecting non-alliance birthplaces I guess).

As usual I agree with you @TheShadowScout. The additive bonus is what I've been pushing for on this game for years. I think a lot of balance problems in the game could be solved by them considering this. I don't believe racials should not be meaningful but I do think they shouldn't be SO meaningful.

GreenHere

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Point one - yes, this has been discussed. At length. Usually with someone suggesting people should get to cherry-pick their passives. And the gimme crowd agreeing, while the TES fans disagree, sometimes snarkily.



Point two - racial differences have -always- been a part of the elder scrolls lore. That is why many of us consider that point non-negotiable as long as it's Elder Scrolls Online...
...
...BUT!
HOW those racial perks should be represented in the game, that is a different story entirely! And one worthy of discussion I say!

Personally I would much prefer if the racial perks did not give a percentage on top of everything, but gave a flat bonus from the start, and that all such stats had a softcap, so the racial boni just let you reach the ceiling sooner instead of raising it above all others... thus they would be a big help at the start, but not matter much in the end... and any race could git gud at anything, just some races might have it easier then others... which is how I think the racial perks ought to be handled (and have been in older TES games on occasion)



Point three - instead of asking them to throw out a part of the TES lore to cater to gamers, maybe think of what other options there could be. Not changing something, but maybe adding something?

I keep suggesting "background passives", that can be done -in addition- to the racial ones... things to reflect a characters birthplace, upbringing, life before the adventuring career... like:

...someone who grew up in skyrim might have a bit of extra cold resistance from being used to it, someone who grew up in black marsh might have a bit of extra disease resistance from making it through adult age there and someone who grew up in valenwood might have some extra sneakyness from picking up forester skills as a kid;

...someone who grew up in a noble househols surrounded by tutors and libraries might have a leg up in magica, while someone who grew up helping the family business as commoner might have gained some extra stamina, and someone who grea up with exiles out in the wilds might gain a bit of extra toughness;

...someone who was a mystic scholar before adventuring might gain some spell resistance, somene who was a skilled worker might get a crafting bonus, and someone who was a petty criminal might get a pickpocket bonus;

...and so on...

...there could even be negative perks associated with this... the bookish scholar might get a penalty to vendor prices due to lack of haggling skills while the child of exiles might get increased bounty gain because the city guard has prejudices, or whatever...

Each on its own should be less then any racial perk... but they would make up for it by being freely selectable (though they might require "any race, any alliance" unlock for selecting non-alliance birthplaces I guess).

I like this a LOT better than a la carte racial passives. Creative and adds to the game.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.

Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.

"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!

You really don't know the Argonian lore if you think that.

Not all Argonians are Shadowscale!

xaraan

No. The passives are fine as they are. You could argue some tweaking is needed here or there, but this give me everything I want attitude needs to stop. Choosing your own passives would just kill diversity as everyone would pick the same passives for whatever role.

In fact, I think it's good that you could play a bosmer sorc for example, feel gimped a little on magicka, but get some interesting bonuses elsewhere a magicka build normally ignores.

At the end of the day, you can play, end game, high end raiding with any race of any class. Min/Maxers certainly love any extra half % they can get out of anything, but it's not required.

HatchetHaro

GreenHere wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

To be honest, anything that decreases the dps gap between "optimal" and non-"optimal" races would be a welcome change, at least to me.

I play solely Argonians and have always feel gimped in terms of damage, and it actually makes me sad that my favourite race is not considered viable for score pushing trials even though I have repeatedly proven that to be false. I've faced the ridicule of a few elitists who called my racial choice "a waste of skill", and it pisses me off.

The current implementation of racial passives is just plain bad. The dps gap is too wide. I'd welcome any solution to narrow that down.

I don't think you should be fairly able to expect to get the highest dps from an Argonian. They're tough and tenacious, survivors and warriors. But inherently adept with blades, bows, or magicka (more than other races, anyway) they are not. You chose to be an Argonian, and you're constrained to what their capabilities are. Because of your choice. That's totally fair, in my mind at least.

You wasted nothing. Personally, I commend you for your choice, and would encourage you to keep persevering as you are. If you don't like the attitude of people telling you that you done goofed for choosing an Argonian, find cooler people to hang out with. You don't need top tier dps to complete anything in the game. And if you want to do top tier dps, just make a character with the advantages to be able to do so.

Here is the thing: in a game with competitive aspects such as trial scorepushing and PvP, players should not have to make a choice between "looking good" and "doing better", especially when the damage difference between them can reach 10%, and trust me, 10% is a lot.

There have been many cases of people race-changing away from their favourite race just so they can do better and stay in their core teams. When people are forced to completely shatter their enjoyment by playing a character they don't like just so they can remain competitive, there's a problem.

So I don't want that "it's your choice so you have to deal with it" spiel. It pisses me off. I know first-hand what top-tier dps looks like, and I've been there for a long time on my Argonian DDs.

dodgehopper_ESO

GreenHere wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Point one - yes, this has been discussed. At length. Usually with someone suggesting people should get to cherry-pick their passives. And the gimme crowd agreeing, while the TES fans disagree, sometimes snarkily.



Point two - racial differences have -always- been a part of the elder scrolls lore. That is why many of us consider that point non-negotiable as long as it's Elder Scrolls Online...
...
...BUT!
HOW those racial perks should be represented in the game, that is a different story entirely! And one worthy of discussion I say!

Personally I would much prefer if the racial perks did not give a percentage on top of everything, but gave a flat bonus from the start, and that all such stats had a softcap, so the racial boni just let you reach the ceiling sooner instead of raising it above all others... thus they would be a big help at the start, but not matter much in the end... and any race could git gud at anything, just some races might have it easier then others... which is how I think the racial perks ought to be handled (and have been in older TES games on occasion)



Point three - instead of asking them to throw out a part of the TES lore to cater to gamers, maybe think of what other options there could be. Not changing something, but maybe adding something?

I keep suggesting "background passives", that can be done -in addition- to the racial ones... things to reflect a characters birthplace, upbringing, life before the adventuring career... like:

...someone who grew up in skyrim might have a bit of extra cold resistance from being used to it, someone who grew up in black marsh might have a bit of extra disease resistance from making it through adult age there and someone who grew up in valenwood might have some extra sneakyness from picking up forester skills as a kid;

...someone who grew up in a noble househols surrounded by tutors and libraries might have a leg up in magica, while someone who grew up helping the family business as commoner might have gained some extra stamina, and someone who grea up with exiles out in the wilds might gain a bit of extra toughness;

...someone who was a mystic scholar before adventuring might gain some spell resistance, somene who was a skilled worker might get a crafting bonus, and someone who was a petty criminal might get a pickpocket bonus;

...and so on...

...there could even be negative perks associated with this... the bookish scholar might get a penalty to vendor prices due to lack of haggling skills while the child of exiles might get increased bounty gain because the city guard has prejudices, or whatever...

Each on its own should be less then any racial perk... but they would make up for it by being freely selectable (though they might require "any race, any alliance" unlock for selecting non-alliance birthplaces I guess).

I like this a LOT better than a la carte racial passives. Creative and adds to the game.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.

Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.

"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!

You really don't know the Argonian lore if you think that.

Not all Argonians are Shadowscale!

I never said they are but if you look into the lore you'll find the Argonians are renowned for being excellent at Guerrilla Warfare, athletics, stealth, etc. They are also good at Spears and they had that hist skin thing that let them get mega healing factor. Generally they are often found in the Thieves Guild and the Mages Guild. In the case of the Thieves Guild it is obvious why and in the case of Mages guild they have a proclivity toward Alchemy and Restoration magic. Go look at the skills list and descriptions (and various lore books) surrounding the Argonians. The presumption that they're all mages I find strikingly bizarre. On a positive note the swim speed is actually great for thieving if you're in the right towns and you get caught.

GreenHere

HatchetHaro wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

To be honest, anything that decreases the dps gap between "optimal" and non-"optimal" races would be a welcome change, at least to me.

I play solely Argonians and have always feel gimped in terms of damage, and it actually makes me sad that my favourite race is not considered viable for score pushing trials even though I have repeatedly proven that to be false. I've faced the ridicule of a few elitists who called my racial choice "a waste of skill", and it pisses me off.

The current implementation of racial passives is just plain bad. The dps gap is too wide. I'd welcome any solution to narrow that down.

I don't think you should be fairly able to expect to get the highest dps from an Argonian. They're tough and tenacious, survivors and warriors. But inherently adept with blades, bows, or magicka (more than other races, anyway) they are not. You chose to be an Argonian, and you're constrained to what their capabilities are. Because of your choice. That's totally fair, in my mind at least.

You wasted nothing. Personally, I commend you for your choice, and would encourage you to keep persevering as you are. If you don't like the attitude of people telling you that you done goofed for choosing an Argonian, find cooler people to hang out with. You don't need top tier dps to complete anything in the game. And if you want to do top tier dps, just make a character with the advantages to be able to do so.

Here is the thing: in a game with competitive aspects such as trial scorepushing and PvP, players should not have to make a choice between "looking good" and "doing better", especially when the damage difference between them can reach 10%, and trust me, 10% is a lot.

There have been many cases of people race-changing away from their favourite race just so they can do better and stay in their core teams. When people are forced to completely shatter their enjoyment by playing a character they don't like just so they can remain competitive, there's a problem.

So I don't want that "it's your choice so you have to deal with it" spiel. It pisses me off. I know first-hand what top-tier dps looks like, and I've been there for a long time on my Argonian DDs.

I agree with you, the race bonuses equate to a large and not-at-all-insubstantial difference in performance. And I'm not trying to *** anyone off. Sorta the opposite, really.

But I think the "it's your choice" argument is a valid one. You choose to solely play Argonians, and personally I think that's cool. The problem, for me and many others at least, comes in when you expect hurdles to be lowered so you can compete in the race better. Your performance with ANY race is more about your ability and teamwork than the bonuses, BUT the bonuses are real and not negligible. You want bonuses that don't belong to your race of choice because you want to be competitive in something your race doesn't have a natural affinity for. Instead of overcoming the lack of bonuses that others get, you want to have them too. Or you want others' strengths weakened so you're on a more level playing field. Instead of capitalizing on your own strengths. See what I'm saying? I'm trying to be non-inflammatory here, but also illustrate the viewpoint of people that "*** you off". It's a pretty clear ideological difference, it seems.

No one forces you to play nothing but Argonians. ZOS offers you 8 free character slots, and 15 if you want to buy more. If you want to be in groups that don't want Argonian dps, you have options. Make characters that suit the meta and people who enforce it on their trial groups. Or find cooler people to play with.

I like Argonians too, and if I heard about a 12 Argonian trial team getting the top score in the world for, well, anything, that'd be impressive and awesome. But if you had it your way, it wouldn't really be notable in any way, since races don't really matter much; everyone is close to the same anyhow.

GreenHere

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Point one - yes, this has been discussed. At length. Usually with someone suggesting people should get to cherry-pick their passives. And the gimme crowd agreeing, while the TES fans disagree, sometimes snarkily.



Point two - racial differences have -always- been a part of the elder scrolls lore. That is why many of us consider that point non-negotiable as long as it's Elder Scrolls Online...
...
...BUT!
HOW those racial perks should be represented in the game, that is a different story entirely! And one worthy of discussion I say!

Personally I would much prefer if the racial perks did not give a percentage on top of everything, but gave a flat bonus from the start, and that all such stats had a softcap, so the racial boni just let you reach the ceiling sooner instead of raising it above all others... thus they would be a big help at the start, but not matter much in the end... and any race could git gud at anything, just some races might have it easier then others... which is how I think the racial perks ought to be handled (and have been in older TES games on occasion)



Point three - instead of asking them to throw out a part of the TES lore to cater to gamers, maybe think of what other options there could be. Not changing something, but maybe adding something?

I keep suggesting "background passives", that can be done -in addition- to the racial ones... things to reflect a characters birthplace, upbringing, life before the adventuring career... like:

...someone who grew up in skyrim might have a bit of extra cold resistance from being used to it, someone who grew up in black marsh might have a bit of extra disease resistance from making it through adult age there and someone who grew up in valenwood might have some extra sneakyness from picking up forester skills as a kid;

...someone who grew up in a noble househols surrounded by tutors and libraries might have a leg up in magica, while someone who grew up helping the family business as commoner might have gained some extra stamina, and someone who grea up with exiles out in the wilds might gain a bit of extra toughness;

...someone who was a mystic scholar before adventuring might gain some spell resistance, somene who was a skilled worker might get a crafting bonus, and someone who was a petty criminal might get a pickpocket bonus;

...and so on...

...there could even be negative perks associated with this... the bookish scholar might get a penalty to vendor prices due to lack of haggling skills while the child of exiles might get increased bounty gain because the city guard has prejudices, or whatever...

Each on its own should be less then any racial perk... but they would make up for it by being freely selectable (though they might require "any race, any alliance" unlock for selecting non-alliance birthplaces I guess).

I like this a LOT better than a la carte racial passives. Creative and adds to the game.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.

Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.

"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!

You really don't know the Argonian lore if you think that.

Not all Argonians are Shadowscale!

I never said they are but if you look into the lore you'll find the Argonians are renowned for being excellent at Guerrilla Warfare, athletics, stealth, etc. They are also good at Spears and they had that hist skin thing that let them get mega healing factor. Generally they are often found in the Thieves Guild and the Mages Guild. In the case of the Thieves Guild it is obvious why and in the case of Mages guild they have a proclivity toward Alchemy and Restoration magic. Go look at the skills list and descriptions (and various lore books) surrounding the Argonians. The presumption that they're all mages I find strikingly bizarre. On a positive note the swim speed is actually great for thieving if you're in the right towns and you get caught.

You're right, and I admit that Argonians not being as sneaky as Khajiit wasn't the best example ever. Was trying to illustrate a point, but you got me on that one. I love my sneaky Argonian, a lot more than my Khajiit thief.

NupidStoob

xaraan wrote: »

No. The passives are fine as they are. You could argue some tweaking is needed here or there, but this give me everything I want attitude needs to stop. Choosing your own passives would just kill diversity as everyone would pick the same passives for whatever role.

Kill which diversity exactly? The one were everyone just plays BiS races for their builds? I am sorry, but there is almost no diversity in endgame at the moment.

GreenHere wrote: »

And if life worked like ESO, I wouldn't choose to be a short white man and expect to become the best NBA player of all time. I know this is a game, and blah blah blah, but I mean... I'm just struggling with the concept of wanting everyone to be able to be the best at everything. How would you balance it while maintaining the individuality of the races in Tamriel?

So why not chose to be a tall white man and become the next Dirk Nowitzki?

I always had a problem with how elder scroll games approach races. Yes sure some are inherently better at something than others and that really doesn't have to change, but it all comes down to individuals and the path they take in life. Race should at max give you a starting boost in a certain direction very much like Skyrim does. In ESO history there have been great mages and fighers of all races, yet in ESO racial differences will dictate that an Altmer mage will always be better than any other mage.

Personally I don't like templates too much either even though adding them in form of professions and removing a lot out of racial bonuses would make a lot of sense. I still think races should be distinct apart from just their looks, but you simply should not be shafted for trying to play a redguard sorcerer for example.

I would prefer adaptive racial passives based on what your characters stats are. That way you can still have certain races be BiS, but don't have to deal with having passives that are basically useless for your spec/build.

runagate

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Look! Another choose your own passives thread!

I personally blame @ZOS_UlyssesW

LordSemaj

Race selection would be a non-issue if we were able to keep or customize our appearance to be a different race.

The problem currently is that people have to be Redguard or Altmer for efficiency.

They could make racial passives into birth places instead and let us play the Nord with Redguard passives.

JobooAGS

xaraan wrote: »

No. The passives are fine as they are. You could argue some tweaking is needed here or there, but this give me everything I want attitude needs to stop. Choosing your own passives would just kill diversity as everyone would pick the same passives for whatever role.

In fact, I think it's good that you could play a bosmer sorc for example, feel gimped a little on magicka, but get some interesting bonuses elsewhere a magicka build normally ignores.

At the end of the day, you can play, end game, high end raiding with any race of any class. Min/Maxers certainly love any extra half % they can get out of anything, but it's not required.

So you consider all mag dps save mag dk to be altmer, essentially all stam dps to be redguard and essentially all tanks as argoinian as diverse? Seperating races from racials would promote diversity from the heavy skew towards redguards, altmer and argonians to about 1/10 of the population being each race, give or take. Make race personal preference and racials to be min max

zaria

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.

Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.

"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!

Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.

In an RPG, your characters become legendary. In Oblivion, I could enchant gear that would allow my Breton to achieve the native fire resistance of a Dunmer or I could fortify my skill to match the base skill of a Redguard, but my Breton racial passives were what they were. In Skyrim, any magicka character can get to a high level of magicka to fuel their spells, but its the Altmer who get the biggest starting bonus.

If the root of the problem is that there are imbalances by the time we get to end-game, the answer is to adjust the benefits of racial passives so that everyone can compensate in other ways and reach approx. the same result, like my Breton having to invest in fire resistance if they want the same as a Dunmer. The answer isn't, in my opinion, to throw out or spread out the lore-based racial passives.

The single player TES games did racial passives in an way who would fit ESO much better.
It was an starting bonus, most was skill or attribute bonuses but breton and altmer had an magic bonus.
As you leveled up increased skills and attributes the racial bonus became less important, it would go away then you reached 100, yes an nord would get 100 in strength faster, even faster if he used strength based skills as major but an old character would have high values in any skills and attributes they focused on.
And yes playing say an female bosmer in Oblivion you wanted to get your strength up fast even if playing an magic character simply to carry more loot.

ESO turn the system on its head, racial passives are not befits you are born with but unlock as you level up.
An low level altmer and bosmer is equal, it would make sense they had starting bonuses instead.
The racials in ESO survived beta because of soft caps, they had racial ultimates but they got removed

HatchetHaro

GreenHere wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

To be honest, anything that decreases the dps gap between "optimal" and non-"optimal" races would be a welcome change, at least to me.

I play solely Argonians and have always feel gimped in terms of damage, and it actually makes me sad that my favourite race is not considered viable for score pushing trials even though I have repeatedly proven that to be false. I've faced the ridicule of a few elitists who called my racial choice "a waste of skill", and it pisses me off.

The current implementation of racial passives is just plain bad. The dps gap is too wide. I'd welcome any solution to narrow that down.

I don't think you should be fairly able to expect to get the highest dps from an Argonian. They're tough and tenacious, survivors and warriors. But inherently adept with blades, bows, or magicka (more than other races, anyway) they are not. You chose to be an Argonian, and you're constrained to what their capabilities are. Because of your choice. That's totally fair, in my mind at least.

You wasted nothing. Personally, I commend you for your choice, and would encourage you to keep persevering as you are. If you don't like the attitude of people telling you that you done goofed for choosing an Argonian, find cooler people to hang out with. You don't need top tier dps to complete anything in the game. And if you want to do top tier dps, just make a character with the advantages to be able to do so.

Here is the thing: in a game with competitive aspects such as trial scorepushing and PvP, players should not have to make a choice between "looking good" and "doing better", especially when the damage difference between them can reach 10%, and trust me, 10% is a lot.

There have been many cases of people race-changing away from their favourite race just so they can do better and stay in their core teams. When people are forced to completely shatter their enjoyment by playing a character they don't like just so they can remain competitive, there's a problem.

So I don't want that "it's your choice so you have to deal with it" spiel. It pisses me off. I know first-hand what top-tier dps looks like, and I've been there for a long time on my Argonian DDs.

I agree with you, the race bonuses equate to a large and not-at-all-insubstantial difference in performance. And I'm not trying to *** anyone off. Sorta the opposite, really.

But I think the "it's your choice" argument is a valid one. You choose to solely play Argonians, and personally I think that's cool. The problem, for me and many others at least, comes in when you expect hurdles to be lowered so you can compete in the race better. Your performance with ANY race is more about your ability and teamwork than the bonuses, BUT the bonuses are real and not negligible. You want bonuses that don't belong to your race of choice because you want to be competitive in something your race doesn't have a natural affinity for. Instead of overcoming the lack of bonuses that others get, you want to have them too. Or you want others' strengths weakened so you're on a more level playing field. Instead of capitalizing on your own strengths. See what I'm saying? I'm trying to be non-inflammatory here, but also illustrate the viewpoint of people that "*** you off". It's a pretty clear ideological difference, it seems.

No one forces you to play nothing but Argonians. ZOS offers you 8 free character slots, and 15 if you want to buy more. If you want to be in groups that don't want Argonian dps, you have options. Make characters that suit the meta and people who enforce it on their trial groups. Or find cooler people to play with.

I like Argonians too, and if I heard about a 12 Argonian trial team getting the top score in the world for, well, anything, that'd be impressive and awesome. But if you had it your way, it wouldn't really be notable in any way, since races don't really matter much; everyone is close to the same anyhow.

I'm fine with choice, but if it's in a fundamentally flawed and unbalanced system that is one between aesthetics and numbers, which are two completely different things that should not be tied to one another, then there is a problem.

Right now, with the current implementation in ESO, I would even be fine with a change that simply lowers the dps gap between races, down to about 2% rather than the 10% it is currently at. I am not saying to give the weaker races stronger passives to match the stronger races, and I am not saying to outright balance them out; I am saying that the dps gap just needs to be lowered.

In an optimal scenario, I would prefer to have it overhauled and replaced with a system that favours the lower levels and not really effective when at max level. The passives that give experience bonuses for certain skill lines, for example, is pretty much perfect. The passives that give resistances, those I'm okay with since they do serve a little bit of purpose, is lore-friendly, and doesn't really matter much in the end-game. The passives that grant sustain changes, I'm mostly okay with; the Adrenaline Rush passive from Redguards is way too OP, the 21% more stam recovery on Bosmer can be toned down a little, and the Argonian potion passive is still kinda over the top; the rest I'm fine with. The passives that downright grant damage increases, however, is the part that people debate over; 10% more max stam is pretty much a 10% damage increase with your abilities; 8% extra crit is just over the top, and 10% more max magicka plus 4% extra elemental damage pushes it even further; those should just be gone.

(Also, as much as I love the uniqueness of the extra Argonian swim speed, I feel that other races should be able to swim faster than their current implementation. I've tried it and it's painful, so I pity all non-Argonians when it comes to swimming.)

Here's what the lore standpoint is: racial passives is a thing in the Elder Scrolls series, that I will not debate. However, also in the lore, there have been notable people who have accomplished things not really stereotypical of their race: Shalidor is a prime example. So, in a way, this racial passive system is already flawed, since a talent tree system would make more sense in this case, but let's just go back to the racial passive system and its implementations in the older ES games.

In ESO, racial passives operate on a percentage level. Redguards get 10% more stamina from a stamina pool, Altmer deal 4% more elemental damage, Imperials get 12% more health, you get the gist. Even then, the flat value passives that exist within other racial passives are extremely significant, such as a flat 8% more critical chance for Khajiiti and effective flat ~205 stam/mag/health recovery for Argonians (which is about 25% of their stamina recovery in a typical PvE setup).

Okay, let's compare this system with TESV: Skyrim. In Skyrim, racial passives are separated into four types: starting level of skills, available starting spells, abilities that can only be used once per day, and racial effects. Skill lines in Skyrim all cap out at 100; certain races do start off at a higher level in certain skills than others, but in the end, every race can still max all of them out at 100, putting all of them back on equal footing. It's the same way with starting spells; some races have access to one more starting spell, but in the end every race can still learn all of them. The unique daily abilities are what really sets each race apart from each other, with powerful effects that differ between each race, but due to its limited use of once per day, it proves itself to be extremely niche and naturally inviable in an MMO setting. Lastly, their unique racial effects is the closest implementation to what we have in ESO; however, all of them are either niche or only utility or defense based, such as finding more gold, increased Magicka pool (doesn't mean anything for damage in Skyrim; more of a sustain thing), and resistances to certain elements.

So basically, none of the racial passives in Skyrim make a character better than another at damage output when leveled; keep in mind, Skyrim is a single-player game, so extremely unique and different abilities that players can access only once per day is a good idea there, but not in ESO, so I'm not going to factor that in.

What about Oblivion? Oh man, even better. It has unique starting attributes and skills, both of which can still be maxed out, and different dispositions in interactions with each race, which is more of an RP thing so I'm fine with that being different, and a class system that treats every race equally.

Both of those basically means that if I work hard at it and reach the same level of attributes and skills as any other race, I can make that race as good as any other race when it comes to in-combat effectiveness.

Why is this significant and why am I making such a big deal out of it?

Because ESO is an Elder Scrolls game that also happens to be an MMO, with actual measurable competition that is built right into the game. The current racial passive implementation in ESO introduces a dps ceiling that is different for every race. If I put in the same amount of effort into a Breton stam DK and a Khajiiti stam DK, the Khajiiti would win out; sure, I can work harder on that Breton to get that damage up, but at any time if I switch to a Khajiiti with the same effort, the damage would still be higher there. Here's my point: at my level in the raiding scene (scorepushing trials, and trust me, I am quite well-known in the NA raiding scene as "that Argonian DD who still manages to crap out amazing dps"), everyone's pretty much at that max level of effort, reaching their damage ceilings, and at that point the damage difference really does show up. That's where the elitism comes in, and that's where the inherent flaw of an existing difference in damage ceilings across races become extremely prominent as a major min-maxing area in determining which race to be instead of just playing the races that people actually like.

It moves people in the competitive scene away from picking a race for their own reasons. "I picked Khajiiti because Khajiiti look cool and I'm a furry" has changed to "Khajiiti magsorc is a bad idea and I hate the other races so I might as well pick an Altmer because they're BiS; not that I'd like playing a non-Khajiit, but I wanna stay in my core team".

Once again, there should not be a choice between "playing what you enjoy" and "playing to be good". Both of these statements are supposed to be independent, where people can play the race they want and not be gimped because of it.

Rev Rielle

More diversity? I'm quite happy as I am (and have been since launch) as a magicka redguard.

Limitations are entirely imposed by the players, not the game's mechanics.

Qbiken

Knowledge wrote: »

In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.

In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.

This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.

I more or less stopped reading after first sentence.

I´m not claiming the following sentence goes for you OP, but if people think their race on a certain class is the reason they can´t be competitive/effective you´re probably doing something else very wrong. A few racial passives could use a buff (like Nord), but other than that racial passives have less impact than people want to believe.

HatchetHaro

Qbiken wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.

In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.

This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.

I more or less stopped reading after first sentence.

I´m not claiming the following sentence goes for you OP, but if people think their race on a certain class is the reason they can´t be competitive/effective you´re probably doing something else very wrong. A few racial passives could use a buff (like Nord), but other than that racial passives have less impact than people want to believe.

As a person actually in the competitive raiding scene on one of these non-meta races, it's more impact than you believe, both in-combat and socially.

WakeYourGhost

If ZOS was planning on changing the name of the game to [Random Simplified MMO #(Insert Number)], this would be a fine step towards establishing that particular goal. They could simply offer you one race and just throw a mess of random appearance features to it, allowing you to indeed have a Cat-person that is perfectly set and spec'ed for Magicka DPS in the most straight forward and generic way possible, giving no concern to any natural racial talents or the Lord of any base story module.
...Or, you can make a Khajiit who is a mage despite their lack of obvious mage-based talent and see if you can make it work anyways.

Suck it up, live a little, and have some damned fun instead of min-maxing every last percentage point... (Unless Min-Maxing is your idea of fun, then.. Just keep it to yourself.)

Also, if your trial group is kicking you because of a Race+Class combination, you've obviously made a critical error - You joined a PUG group for a trial instead of making friends or even comrades in an MMO, and now you're stuck playing with a group of people who have the synergy and coordination of a drunk Nix-Ox missing three legs that's been pumped full of aphrodisiacs. I haven't been kicked from anything yet for my "Sub-optimal" builds. Also haven't had any problems preforming.

Qbiken

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.

In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.

This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.

I more or less stopped reading after first sentence.

I´m not claiming the following sentence goes for you OP, but if people think their race on a certain class is the reason they can´t be competitive/effective you´re probably doing something else very wrong. A few racial passives could use a buff (like Nord), but other than that racial passives have less impact than people want to believe.

As a person actually in the competitive raiding scene on one of these non-meta races, it's more impact than you believe, both in-combat and socially.

Think we´ve different experiences regarding those things then (aka agree to disagree ^^), my view is that race doesn´t impact performance as much as other things do

GreenHere

+17 Science Collaboration Points to @HatchetHaro for having a civil and thoughtful discussion on something we disagree about. I do appreciate your response and contribution to the discussion.

Unfortunately, though, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not as open-minded as I thought I was, because I just can't get onboard with...

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[snip]

It moves people in the competitive scene away from picking a race for their own reasons. "I picked Khajiiti because Khajiiti look cool and I'm a furry" has changed to "Khajiiti magsorc is a bad idea and I hate the other races so I might as well pick an Altmer because they're BiS; not that I'd like playing a non-Khajiit, but I wanna stay in my core team".

Once again, there should not be a choice between "playing what you enjoy" and "playing to be good". Both of these statements are supposed to be independent, where people can play the race they want and not be gimped because of it.

Mainly because of that last part. As I see it, things already are this way. You can currently play what you enjoy while playing to be good. You can play any race you want, for any class/role you want, and if you're good enough at the game you can be in the top 10%. Of the world. You just can't play what you enjoy while playing to be the BEST in the world. Unless you enjoy just playing what race best matches your goal in the first place, that is. Which seems perfectly reasonable to me. Everyone has access to the same race choices. (except Imperial, but...)

From here it really seems like you're in the top 10% of players, as a non-ideal race (which is cool!), and that's still not good enough for you... so you want to adjust the entire game to be more in your favor so you're now in the 5% or even the 1% with your chosen race (which is not so cool). I can't see a way this doesn't diminish the other 90-99% of players.

No matter what the approach for adjusting the races to balance them out is, you're diminishing the uniqueness and niches that each race currently holds. The substantial and interesting differences in races is one thing I really like that ZOS has done with Elder Scrolls. I think we're at a pretty good balance right now, personally. Previous games are bad examples in my mind, because as you said the bonuses are significant only early on, and basically non-existent by endgame. I'm not clear on why anyone would want this. Why is it better to always be more or less the same overpowered juggernaut, no matter what choices got you there by the end of the game? That seems really boring and... I don't know, anticlimactic (for lack of a better word here).

I'm generally in favor of changes that brings the bottom 50% of players closer to the top 1%. What I'm (apparently) pretty strongly opposed to is "I should be able to play any race I want and be as good as the best at whatever I want to do!" type thinking. Why are you entitled to that by virtue of the game balancing it that way for you? Why are you entitled to that at the expense of other players' experience?

If you want to be the best dang Argonian (or Nord, or Breton, or StamDK, or MagPlar, or whatever) dps in the world, go for it! I sincerely wish you luck; more power to you! That kind of stuff is awesome, and I can dig it.

But if you want your Argonian to have just as much affinity for spellcasting as any High Elf around, you don't want ESO's "become a hero in a world full of heros" format. You want the single player Elder Scrolls', "You're the chosen one, go nuts!" format. Applying the "you're a special exemption from the tethers that bind lesser mortals" formula too heavily in a multiplayer game means no one is special, and choices lose meaning.

GreenHere

Also, because a lot of people seem rather dismissive about it, I would like to acknowledge @HatchetHaro 's point about racial passives being significant.

For most of us, the passives don't matter all that much most of the time. That's true, I get it, we agree so far.

BUT, at really high levels, where Haro claims to be coming from (not doubting in any way, I just don't know them because I'm not in that scene), these passives DO make a LARGER difference. 4% bonus on 10k dps ain't nothin. 4% on 50k time 8 people against bosses that have tens of millions of health to chew through... well, suddenly we're talking SERIOUS numbers. These racial passives do represent significant differences.

The thing is, I (and apparently most others) like it this way. And plenty of reasons have been given, so I'll resist the urge to elaborate here on that.

But I think it's unfair to dismiss people's totally valid points simply because you disagree with the overarching point they're going for.

zaria

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

If ZOS was planning on changing the name of the game to [Random Simplified MMO #(Insert Number)], this would be a fine step towards establishing that particular goal. They could simply offer you one race and just throw a mess of random appearance features to it, allowing you to indeed have a Cat-person that is perfectly set and spec'ed for Magicka DPS in the most straight forward and generic way possible, giving no concern to any natural racial talents or the Lord of any base story module.
...Or, you can make a Khajiit who is a mage despite their lack of obvious mage-based talent and see if you can make it work anyways.

Suck it up, live a little, and have some damned fun instead of min-maxing every last percentage point... (Unless Min-Maxing is your idea of fun, then.. Just keep it to yourself.)

Also, if your trial group is kicking you because of a Race+Class combination, you've obviously made a critical error - You joined a PUG group for a trial instead of making friends or even comrades in an MMO, and now you're stuck playing with a group of people who have the synergy and coordination of a drunk Nix-Ox missing three legs that's been pumped full of aphrodisiacs. I haven't been kicked from anything yet for my "Sub-optimal" builds. Also haven't had any problems preforming.

Read my post above, ESO racials works in an fundamentally different way then daggerfall, morrowind and oblivion.
Had eso bonuses been starting rather than end game this would not been an issue.
Also that this survived beta because of soft caps while racial ultimate's was removed.

And yes I agree its overblown and mostly in peoples mind, like that animation canceling will double your dps.
its an 10% difference in worst case so if you do 20k dps it would go up to 22k, this is pretty easy to see looking at the actual passives.

Again its in peoples head, some guy on forum thought it had an 75% effect, People doing only HA with ice staffs think its why they do low damage and getting kicked from dungeons
And no nobody research an builds then creating their first character. they select an race who look cool and an class they like, the racial description is pretty much the same as in Skyrim.

dodgehopper_ESO

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

If ZOS was planning on changing the name of the game to [Random Simplified MMO #(Insert Number)], this would be a fine step towards establishing that particular goal. They could simply offer you one race and just throw a mess of random appearance features to it, allowing you to indeed have a Cat-person that is perfectly set and spec'ed for Magicka DPS in the most straight forward and generic way possible, giving no concern to any natural racial talents or the Lord of any base story module.
...Or, you can make a Khajiit who is a mage despite their lack of obvious mage-based talent and see if you can make it work anyways.

Suck it up, live a little, and have some damned fun instead of min-maxing every last percentage point... (Unless Min-Maxing is your idea of fun, then.. Just keep it to yourself.)

Also, if your trial group is kicking you because of a Race+Class combination, you've obviously made a critical error - You joined a PUG group for a trial instead of making friends or even comrades in an MMO, and now you're stuck playing with a group of people who have the synergy and coordination of a drunk Nix-Ox missing three legs that's been pumped full of aphrodisiacs. I haven't been kicked from anything yet for my "Sub-optimal" builds. Also haven't had any problems preforming.

The game did not start out with the passives the way you understand them today. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I use to know Khajiit Mages whose crit passive helped in weapon skills (destruction)(restoration). They had a niche. Overcharge also made them more functional. The game utterly changed and they had to either remake their character or race change. A Khajiit Stam Sorc is fine nowadays but I still feel for those players and they should never have had to PAY to make their characters that were once viable to be viable again. Dev Screwups should not lead to monetary expenditures of the player.

rfennell_ESO

Knowledge wrote: »

In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.

In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.

This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.

I'd rather see racial differences made larger.

With major additions making the differences even more extreme.

It's cool to have to also account for race on top of class. They don't necessarily have to make it stat based either.

Jura23

This is RPG. In my opinion, in the RPG the race should affect my character, because that's part of roleplaying. If it didn't the race would be just cosmetic feature and I don't like that idea.

zaria

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.

In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.

This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.

I'd rather see racial differences made larger.

With major additions making the differences even more extreme.

It's cool to have to also account for race on top of class. They don't necessarily have to make it stat based either.

Again players does not study builds then creating their first character, they discover they have made an non bis selection months later and it might be very random, like very unsure if making an magsorc altmer or bosmer, they wanted to be an elf and did not like dumer, selected bosmer by random.

I'm for adding sex differences like in the daggerfall, morrowind and oblivion
Its both lore friendly and realistic.

Kuramas9tails

Jura23 wrote: »

This is RPG. In my opinion, in the RPG the race should affect my character, because that's part of roleplaying. If it didn't the race would be just cosmetic feature and I don't like that idea.

Roleplaying? So you mean to tell me that my male Khajiit who wants to be a top notch mage and break away that old age thought that Khajiits can't be as good as an Alter in magic isn't a personalized roleplaying experience for me? I shun thee. He may be a female Altmer now but one day I hope ZOS will let me race change him back into that male Khajiit to prove his worth for his race. Long live Sundar The Last, my fabulous male Khajiit. Before the sustain nerf, I could get away beating VMA as a magic Khajiit. Now......well....I guess Mer will have to do. He has an identity crisis right now.

rfennell_ESO

zaria wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.

In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.

This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.

I'd rather see racial differences made larger.

With major additions making the differences even more extreme.

It's cool to have to also account for race on top of class. They don't necessarily have to make it stat based either.

Again players does not study builds then creating their first character, they discover they have made an non bis selection months later and it might be very random, like very unsure if making an magsorc altmer or bosmer, they wanted to be an elf and did not like dumer, selected bosmer by random.

I'm for adding sex differences like in the daggerfall, morrowind and oblivion
Its both lore friendly and realistic.

If only there was a mechanic in game to change race!

I get that sometimes you find yourself with a race that performs subpar for a role.

But... races that are not traditionally of a certain inclination probably should perform subparringly.

LordSemaj

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

If only there was a mechanic in game to change race!

But who wants to look like a Redguard, Argonian, or High Elf? The player originally chose the race he wanted and now has to change his appearance to become BIS. That simply isn't right and vampires have been arguing that point for ages.

Silver_Strider

I'm of the mind that racials should just be removed flat out with only fluff racials (like Argonian Swim Speed) existing. Since this most likely won't happen, racials need to be adjusted so that each race is closer to one another without completely invalidating each other either. Here's my thoughts for the later.

Nord
Stalwart - Increase Max Stamina by 3/6/9% and Health Recovery by 6/13/20%
Rugged - Increase Damage Resist by 2/4/6% and Restore 400 stamina whenever you take damage. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.

Lets Nord keep their damage resistance while also letting them restore stamina every few seconds on getting hit. Makes them pretty powerful Tanks now, while giving them a bit more damage in the stamina department

Breton
Magicka Mastery - Reduce the cost of spells by 2/3/4% and Increase Magic Regen by 1/3/5%

Ever so small buff to the Reduce Cost effect with an added Magic Regen buff to make it a more sustainable Magic Race over Altmer

Khajiit
Nimble - Increase Max Health by 2/4/6% and Increase Stamina Regen by 4/8/12%
Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%
Carnage - Increase Weapon and Spell Critial by 2/5/8%

. Khajiit loses its Health regen passive in place of a 6% health buff as well as 3% more Stamina. Legit just tacked on the spell crit so that people would stop complaining about Magic Khajiit under representation.

Bosmer
Stealthy - Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 1/2/3m, Increases damage done while in Stealth by 2/4/6% and Increase Max Stamina by 1/2/3%

Same as Khajiit. More Max Stamina.

On Stealthy nerf for Khajiit and Bosmer

Stealthy is not a healthy passive in this game, at all. It shoehorns both Khajiit and Bosmer into being nothing but gank NB builds in PvP, limiting their overall options in both PvP and PvE as they underperform in all other classes. To grant a level of flexibility in other classes, while still allowing for the ganker route to be viable, Stealthy REQUIRED this nerf.

Imperial
Red Diamond - Your light/heavy attacks restore 500 Max Health and 400 Max Stamina or Max Magicka, whichever is higher. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

No Chance %. Just a pure, flat Tri-stat restore that occurs on any weaved attacks every 4 seconds. I originally suggested that it restore both Stamina/Magicka but after number crunching it, Imperial would just get similar stat restore to Argonian's potion passive that's currently available and since I nerfed that passive here, it would just make Imperial the new Argonian with better damage.

Orc
Brawny - Increase Max Health and Stamina by 3/5/8%

I wanted to update Orcs so that it won't be completely outclassed by Khajiit and a minor Stamina and Health buff might be enough to keep them on the map as a decent Stamina race

Argonian
Resourceful - Increase your Max Magic by 2/4/6%, whenever you drink a potion you restore 1200/2400/3600 Health/Magic/Stamina
Quick to Mend - Increase your Healing done and Received by 1/2/3%

I honestly hate having to nerf Argonians at all but if it's for balance purposes, I'll suck it up. It's not all bad though. We'll get a minor magic buff so our damage won't be complete crap and we should still be a top competitor for best healer race so I'm sure the masses will survive.

I made these adjustments based on Damage, Sustain and Tankiness for each race. Most will excel in 1-2 fields without being perfect for everything. Imperial is the only one that has all 3 in fair bulk but doesn't excel over every race either.

Khajiit and Orc would probably be the most damaging Stamina Races but Orcs are more Tank oriented and Khajiit more sustain orientated. Redguard remains King of Stamina Sustain but doesn't do the damage of Khajiit or Orcs, nor is it tanky. Nords and Bosmer trail behind all in damage but Bosmer would be higher on the sustain front then most others with PvP still being their speciality and Nords have great Tankiness with the sustain to help fulfill that role. Breton becomes the potentially best magic sustain race, putting it more on par with Argonian while doing more damage than Argonian and Argonian being more Tanky than Breton. Altmer, Dunmer, and Redguard I feel are mostly fine as is.

Tell me what's y'all think.