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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
A solution to racial passives.
Knowledge
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✭
In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
5
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Kuramas9tails✭✭✭✭✭
✭I had this idea a while ago but different. My thought was have the current passives per race as a "template". When you chose your race, you can pick the passive template. This also excludes passives associated with the race like fast swimming for Argnoians and reduce fall damage for Bosmer and give races that have nothing similar to have one (like bleed damage for Khajiit or some sort). Because everyone wants to be a BIS race, it makes for a dull variety of races.
I only say this because I want to be a mageblade khajiit and still pour out max dps without having to be an Altmer. I could still beat VMA as a mageblade Khajiit and get to the last boss of VMOL but most guilds wont accept this and ask you to race change.Edited by Kuramas9tails on February 20, 2018 8:28PMYour friendly neighborhood crazy cat lady of ESO
New PSN name: SundariTheLast. Proud seller in RedEye Empire, PURPLE GANG and Backalley Trading.
AD High Elf Mageblade DPS (General)(Former Empress) -- Stormproof/VMOL, VHOF, VDSA completion
AD Khajiit Mageblade DPS -- Flawless Conquerer
FOR THE QUEEN!
PS4/NA4 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭I'd rather they just let you choose your passive, instead of trying to implement and then balancing around anything too new/possibly convoluted. Just rename the passives appropriately.
I do think it's ridiculous how strong some racials are in comparison to others. Ugh.4 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Look! Another choose your own passives thread!
Well, I didn't know there was another one and it is good to continue discussion if the community wants something like this.1 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
umm, race really doesn't impact your build much in this game either...its a matter of single digit percentage points. I mean, if you actually chose your own passives, many races would never even be played.5 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
umm, race really doesn't impact your build much in this game either...its a matter of single digit percentage points. I mean, if you actually chose your own passives, many races would never even be played.
If you ever do Veteran trials and say something like this while playing an unoptimal race/class combo you will be kicked from the raid. It happens a lot.3 -
Pink_Violinz✭✭✭✭✭
If you ever do Veteran trials and say something like this while playing an unoptimal race/class combo you will be kicked from the raid. It happens a lot.
Last night I did vAA Hm and Vhof, and one of our best dpses was a stamdk bosmer. It seems more like you got into a bad group. If you pull the required numbers it doesn't matter what race you are, but achieving those numbers tends to be easier with the correct race.
In any case, this is still Elder Scrolls. You could run a mage redguard in Morrowind, but it really wasn't recommended. Racial passives have always been important to the series, and erasing them would erase what makes each race special.Edited by Pink_Violinz on February 20, 2018 9:02PM4 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!7 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It is true that being the "right" race for a spec makes a definite difference. Anyone who says it doesn't is plain wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, the math is clear; a Dunmer magDK just plain has a mathematical advantage over a Khajiit magDK.
BUT, I have a Dunmer magDK that I top out around 25k dps with. I'm absolutely certain a large number of people could pull upwards of 30k with the same build on a Nord or whatever. They'd be handicapped a bit by their racial choice, but their skill and ability would trump mine regardless. Player ability is the most important thing in this game, it seems. Which is why it doesn't seem necessary to make all classes have access to the same kind of passives, to me.
P.S. -- People shouldn't be kicked for their racial choice alone. If they pull what the group/leader determines is inadequate dps, or they have a shoddy attitude, or they are just making the run a pain for everyone in some other way well then that's a different story. But personally I'd find it novel and interesting to be in a group with a High Elf stamBlade that's pulling 35k dps on a boss. I'd like to see more of that, not because racials are changed from what they are, but because someone got creative and overcame the odds.0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
umm, race really doesn't impact your build much in this game either...its a matter of single digit percentage points. I mean, if you actually chose your own passives, many races would never even be played.
If you ever do Veteran trials and say something like this while playing an unoptimal race/class combo you will be kicked from the raid. It happens a lot.
Only because some people can't seem to understand that a dead boss is still a dead boss regardless of whether or not someone chose to min/max their stats."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1. It really doesn’t matter what other major MMORPGs are doing. There is a reason we are playing this game and not those games. It’s very good for MMORPGs to do things differently from each other and race passives threads like this don’t get the support to indicate the player base has issues with them.
Second, Zos considered race change would newly change passives to that of another race and not the appearance. Clearly they changed their mind and kept race passives tied to the appearance of the race.5 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭1. It really doesn’t matter what other major MMORPGs are doing. There is a reason we are playing this game and not those games. It’s very good for MMORPGs to do things differently from each other and race passives threads like this don’t get the support to indicate the player base has issues with them.
Second, Zos considered race change would newly change passives to that of another race and not the appearance. Clearly they changed their mind and kept race passives tied to the appearance of the race.
Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if ZOS had certain constraints on what they can and can't do with the lore of what I believe is Bethesda's biggest IP. Tossing lore-based racial advantages out the window might not even be within their power, for all we know.0 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭To be honest, anything that decreases the dps gap between "optimal" and non-"optimal" races would be a welcome change, at least to me.
I play solely Argonians and have always feel gimped in terms of damage, and it actually makes me sad that my favourite race is not considered viable for score pushing trials even though I have repeatedly proven that to be false. I've faced the ridicule of a few elitists who called my racial choice "a waste of skill", and it pisses me off.
The current implementation of racial passives is just plain bad. The dps gap is too wide. I'd welcome any solution to narrow that down.Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained3 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HatchetHaro wrote: »To be honest, anything that decreases the dps gap between "optimal" and non-"optimal" races would be a welcome change, at least to me.
I play solely Argonians and have always feel gimped in terms of damage, and it actually makes me sad that my favourite race is not considered viable for score pushing trials even though I have repeatedly proven that to be false. I've faced the ridicule of a few elitists who called my racial choice "a waste of skill", and it pisses me off.
The current implementation of racial passives is just plain bad. The dps gap is too wide. I'd welcome any solution to narrow that down.
I don't think you should be fairly able to expect to get the highest dps from an Argonian. They're tough and tenacious, survivors and warriors. But inherently adept with blades, bows, or magicka (more than other races, anyway) they are not. You chose to be an Argonian, and you're constrained to what their capabilities are. Because of your choice. That's totally fair, in my mind at least.
You wasted nothing. Personally, I commend you for your choice, and would encourage you to keep persevering as you are. If you don't like the attitude of people telling you that you done goofed for choosing an Argonian, find cooler people to hang out with. You don't need top tier dps to complete anything in the game. And if you want to do top tier dps, just make a character with the advantages to be able to do so.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In my opinion, this ongoing and often recurring on a monthly basis discussion of racial passives often leaves people on one of two sides.
Either you are with this guy:
Or you are with this guy:
0 -
cyclonus11✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Keep racial passives - and add racial actives and ultimates!
NEED MOAR SKILLZEdited by cyclonus11 on February 20, 2018 10:25PM2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, lore is important and some races are better at some things than others
Agreed. Now, in the previous TES games it was possible to level up to the point that most of the skill benefits became meaningless, but this isn't a single-player game. Nevertheless, the racial passives are lore-based from past Elder Scrolls games, so I'm not in favor of diluting the current passives amongst the races.1 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
umm, race really doesn't impact your build much in this game either...its a matter of single digit percentage points. I mean, if you actually chose your own passives, many races would never even be played.In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
umm, race really doesn't impact your build much in this game either...its a matter of single digit percentage points. I mean, if you actually chose your own passives, many races would never even be played.
If you ever do Veteran trials and say something like this while playing an unoptimal race/class combo you will be kicked from the raid. It happens a lot.
Sad state of affairs if a raid boots someone because of their class. Although it doesn't surprise me with the amount of 'elite' sweat stained mouth breathing basement dwellers who make these type of decisions.1v1 Win/Loss Record in PvP.
1 Wins - 392 Losses (guy was AFK)1 -
Thunderknuckles✭✭✭✭While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!
Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thunderknuckles wrote: »While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!
Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.
In an RPG, your characters become legendary. In Oblivion, I could enchant gear that would allow my Breton to achieve the native fire resistance of a Dunmer or I could fortify my skill to match the base skill of a Redguard, but my Breton racial passives were what they were. In Skyrim, any magicka character can get to a high level of magicka to fuel their spells, but its the Altmer who get the biggest starting bonus.
If the root of the problem is that there are imbalances by the time we get to end-game, the answer is to adjust the benefits of racial passives so that everyone can compensate in other ways and reach approx. the same result, like my Breton having to invest in fire resistance if they want the same as a Dunmer. The answer isn't, in my opinion, to throw out or spread out the lore-based racial passives.1 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thunderknuckles wrote: »While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!
Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.
Fair point. But if we're all legendary, are any of us? Seems like we should be "legendary heroes" or whatever by our actions, circumstance, etc., more than racial bonuses buffing up certain stats.
Also, it seems to me this is a heavily dps-oriented debate. Would everyone feel the same if I was requesting better healing passives for my Nord?
As it currently stands, race feels like one of the few things we have to make our characters unique. I can see why people are hesitant to give that up by letting people forge their own racial passives.0 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Thunderknuckles wrote: »While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!
Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.
In an RPG, your characters become legendary. In Oblivion, I could enchant gear that would allow my Breton to achieve the native fire resistance of a Dunmer or I could fortify my skill to match the base skill of a Redguard, but my Breton racial passives were what they were. In Skyrim, any magicka character can get to a high level of magicka to fuel their spells, but its the Altmer who get the biggest starting bonus.
If the root of the problem is that there are imbalances by the time we get to end-game, the answer is to adjust the benefits of racial passives so that everyone can compensate in other ways and reach approx. the same result, like my Breton having to invest in fire resistance if they want the same as a Dunmer. The answer isn't, in my opinion, to throw out or spread out the lore-based racial passives.
Another good response. I guess my question is:
Why do we all have to reach approximately the same results at endgame?
I'm trying to be open-minded, but I don't get why a Redguard should be entitled to being even almost as good as an Altmer at elemental magic damage, and the like. I don't make a Khajiit and expect to be able to dethrone Vanus Galerion as the most formidable magic wielding mortal around.
And if life worked like ESO, I wouldn't choose to be a short white man and expect to become the best NBA player of all time. I know this is a game, and blah blah blah, but I mean... I'm just struggling with the concept of wanting everyone to be able to be the best at everything. How would you balance it while maintaining the individuality of the races in Tamriel?1 -
Thunderknuckles✭✭✭✭Thunderknuckles wrote: »While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!
Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.
Fair point. But if we're all legendary, are any of us? Seems like we should be "legendary heroes" or whatever by our actions, circumstance, etc., more than racial bonuses buffing up certain stats.
Also, it seems to me this is a heavily dps-oriented debate. Would everyone feel the same if I was requesting better healing passives for my Nord?
As it currently stands, race feels like one of the few things we have to make our characters unique. I can see why people are hesitant to give that up by letting people forge their own racial passives.
Oh I agree with the "if we're all legendary, are any of us?" That's just one of those things we have to overlook in an MMO where each toon is the hero. lol Yeah, it's a tough one to get around. I mean, with however many thousands of players there are in ESO, there is still, technically, only one Vestige. I just paid 3K crowns to change my Imperial NB vampire to a Bosmer for the stealth attack damage bonus. Galled me a bit because I was very happy with his appearance. ha ha The dps advantage as a Bosmer, however, is very noticeable (well, when attacking from stealth).
Personally I just deal with the racial passives thing as it is, but I don't think the OP is requesting anything ridiculous.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Thunderknuckles wrote: »While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!
Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.
In an RPG, your characters become legendary. In Oblivion, I could enchant gear that would allow my Breton to achieve the native fire resistance of a Dunmer or I could fortify my skill to match the base skill of a Redguard, but my Breton racial passives were what they were. In Skyrim, any magicka character can get to a high level of magicka to fuel their spells, but its the Altmer who get the biggest starting bonus.
If the root of the problem is that there are imbalances by the time we get to end-game, the answer is to adjust the benefits of racial passives so that everyone can compensate in other ways and reach approx. the same result, like my Breton having to invest in fire resistance if they want the same as a Dunmer. The answer isn't, in my opinion, to throw out or spread out the lore-based racial passives.
Another good response. I guess my question is:
Why do we all have to reach approximately the same results at endgame?
I'm trying to be open-minded, but I don't get why a Redguard should be entitled to being even almost as good as an Altmer at elemental magic damage, and the like. I don't make a Khajiit and expect to be able to dethrone Vanus Galerion as the most formidable magic wielding mortal around.
And if life worked like ESO, I wouldn't choose to be a short white man and expect to become the best NBA player of all time. I know this is a game, and blah blah blah, but I mean... I'm just struggling with the concept of wanting everyone to be able to be the best at everything. How would you balance it while maintaining the individuality of the races in Tamriel?
I'd say its not too out of reach to ask to all reach the sameish results at end-game, because that's what's possible in teh single-player Elder Scrolls games...but I come to ESO from the single-player elder scrolls rpg games. Maybe that's different with MMOs where I should be expecting classes/races to have bigger end game differences?0 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Thunderknuckles wrote: »While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!
Except that YOUR character is not, by any means, the average of their race in the story. So the OP's suggestion is not unreasonable. YOUR/OUR characters are, story wise, legendary.
In an RPG, your characters become legendary. In Oblivion, I could enchant gear that would allow my Breton to achieve the native fire resistance of a Dunmer or I could fortify my skill to match the base skill of a Redguard, but my Breton racial passives were what they were. In Skyrim, any magicka character can get to a high level of magicka to fuel their spells, but its the Altmer who get the biggest starting bonus.
If the root of the problem is that there are imbalances by the time we get to end-game, the answer is to adjust the benefits of racial passives so that everyone can compensate in other ways and reach approx. the same result, like my Breton having to invest in fire resistance if they want the same as a Dunmer. The answer isn't, in my opinion, to throw out or spread out the lore-based racial passives.
Another good response. I guess my question is:
Why do we all have to reach approximately the same results at endgame?
I'm trying to be open-minded, but I don't get why a Redguard should be entitled to being even almost as good as an Altmer at elemental magic damage, and the like. I don't make a Khajiit and expect to be able to dethrone Vanus Galerion as the most formidable magic wielding mortal around.
And if life worked like ESO, I wouldn't choose to be a short white man and expect to become the best NBA player of all time. I know this is a game, and blah blah blah, but I mean... I'm just struggling with the concept of wanting everyone to be able to be the best at everything. How would you balance it while maintaining the individuality of the races in Tamriel?
I'd say its not too out of reach to ask to all reach the sameish results at end-game, because that's what's possible in teh single-player Elder Scrolls games...but I come to ESO from the single-player elder scrolls rpg games. Maybe that's different with MMOs where I should be expecting classes/races to have bigger end game differences?
For what it's worth, ESO is my first MMO and I also come from previous Elder Scrolls games, going back to Morrowind. It was certainly possible in previous games to become basically a walking god, but usually through exploits or poorly balanced gameplay decision. (Which were a lot of fun, I'll grant you!)
The main difference, at least as I see it, is in those games you were THE legendary hero. The chosen one. Or a glorified sidekick with WAY too much free reign. ;P You could essentially break the game, and who cares because it's single player anyhow. Go nuts.
In ESO you're A legendary hero. As an Elder Scrolls fan, and someone who has a fairly large number of personal nitpicks with ZOS decisions, I can say that I honestly feel like race and racial passives is one of the things ZOS has handled really well. At least since I started playing ESO after One Tamriel. Race choice matters, yet none feel superior to all others (at least not in all ways). No matter what Altmer will tell you.
Each have their strength, and it seems to me that all their strengths are valid. I have one of each race, and when I build around and play to their strengths, or intentionally go against them, I'm having a good time and doing well with that character. If we can suddenly alter our inherent strengths to suit our desires, suddenly the ability to have an Orc elemental mage do good dps isn't novel or impressive. It's just cosmetic. I guess that's the crux of why I'm somewhat opposed to this whole "choose your passives" idea. It takes away from the game, and adds nothing that I can see.2 -
Micah_Bayer✭✭✭✭✭In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
Not lore accurate0 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Micah_Bayer wrote: »In most modern MMORPGs your race doesn't impact your character as much as it does in ESO. A lot of people want to play other races at high levels of gameplay which would otherwise reduce their effectiveness. Altmer a the best magicka race and Redguard the best stam race. However, both of those races have warriors of other types.
In an effort to allow more diversity for multiple class types and races I propose that each race has a starting template to choose from. These templates would be unique to the race but allow the race to perform other roles efficiently at high levels of play. For example, you currently have the Altmer passives for magicka and there would then be an alternative starting templar which would again be unique to them. Perhaps it would increase Stamina by 10% and reduce stamina cost by 3% with the third passive allowing 1% stamina recovery while blocking.
This is just a loose example but essentially my idea is to have two unique templates for each race only selectable at character creation. One for Magicka and one for Stamina oriented classes.
Not lore accurate
I took like 7,843 words to try and say basically this :P
But I was pretty sure people would swoop in with the snarky "o noez, muh loarz!" posts and silly meme gifs, so yeah...0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭While I can appreciate wanting some kind of equality or whatever when it comes to high level play, I actually like that my Imperial battlemage will never have the innate skill an Altmer will. Bretons shouldn't be better berserkers than Orcs. Argonians should not be sneakier than Khajiit. I like the inequalities. Makes it more interesting. You can still do any of that stuff with any (playable) race in Tamriel, but if you want the innate advantages of being better at a certain thing... well, you gotta go with the race that's been good at that thing for thousands of years.
Personally, I think equality is overrated anyway. Life isn't equal, and to force or pretend everyone should be equal in all ways at all times is asinine in my view. Celebrate and make the most of the differences.
"Equality is overrated!" -- Green for Emperor 2020!
You really don't know the Argonian lore if you think that.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Point one - yes, this has been discussed. At length. Usually with someone suggesting people should get to cherry-pick their passives. And the gimme crowd agreeing, while the TES fans disagree, sometimes snarkily.
Point two - racial differences have -always- been a part of the elder scrolls lore. That is why many of us consider that point non-negotiable as long as it's Elder Scrolls Online...
...
...BUT!
HOW those racial perks should be represented in the game, that is a different story entirely! And one worthy of discussion I say!
Personally I would much prefer if the racial perks did not give a percentage on top of everything, but gave a flat bonus from the start, and that all such stats had a softcap, so the racial boni just let you reach the ceiling sooner instead of raising it above all others... thus they would be a big help at the start, but not matter much in the end... and any race could git gud at anything, just some races might have it easier then others... which is how I think the racial perks ought to be handled (and have been in older TES games on occasion)
Point three - instead of asking them to throw out a part of the TES lore to cater to gamers, maybe think of what other options there could be. Not changing something, but maybe adding something?
I keep suggesting "background passives", that can be done -in addition- to the racial ones... things to reflect a characters birthplace, upbringing, life before the adventuring career... like:
...someone who grew up in skyrim might have a bit of extra cold resistance from being used to it, someone who grew up in black marsh might have a bit of extra disease resistance from making it through adult age there and someone who grew up in valenwood might have some extra sneakyness from picking up forester skills as a kid;
...someone who grew up in a noble househols surrounded by tutors and libraries might have a leg up in magica, while someone who grew up helping the family business as commoner might have gained some extra stamina, and someone who grea up with exiles out in the wilds might gain a bit of extra toughness;
...someone who was a mystic scholar before adventuring might gain some spell resistance, somene who was a skilled worker might get a crafting bonus, and someone who was a petty criminal might get a pickpocket bonus;
...and so on...
...there could even be negative perks associated with this... the bookish scholar might get a penalty to vendor prices due to lack of haggling skills while the child of exiles might get increased bounty gain because the city guard has prejudices, or whatever...
Each on its own should be less then any racial perk... but they would make up for it by being freely selectable (though they might require "any race, any alliance" unlock for selecting non-alliance birthplaces I guess).1
