Stop claiming that light attack weaving is an "exploit"

  • Raideen
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    Aurielle wrote: »
    Seriously. There have been SO many threads lately about animation cancelling; light attack weaving almost invariably gets lumped into those discussions.

    I'm assuming that those of you who claim light attack weaving is an exploit have not played many MMORPGs before and do not understand why light/heavy attacks were added to this game. Most old-school MMORPGs (think EverQuest, WoW, LOTRO, etc.) had/have combat systems that feature passive auto-attacks. Auto-attacks provide small amounts of melee or ranged damage, and generally fire off during the global skill cooldown (GCD). Players have ZERO control over auto-attacks, though some of these games do allow you to turn them off (resulting in a small DPS decrease) if you don't like them, or if having auto-attacks turned on results in accidental enemy aggro. A lot of macro and animation cancelling setups in other games require careful timing to make the most of auto-attacks. See this hunter build for LOTRO as an example: http://heedlesstosspotts.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2372522

    Relevant quote (again, for a hunter in LOTRO):
    No matter how well the following things chain skills or cancel animation, your auto-attacks can do both. Don't jam an auto-attack together with a skill, but do try to time skills right after an auto-attack animation begins (the animation begins before your character actually moves to shoot). It is essential to master the timing between each auto-attack. This will make your skill transitions smoother than an oiled butt. If you screw up and use it too late after the auto-attack animation begins, you'll get a short animation lock.

    Guess what ESO had in alpha? You guessed it! Auto-attacks. Long-term MMO players and Elder Scrolls fans wanted a more active combat system, however -- one not reliant on the traditional auto-attacks, auto-blocks, auto-dodging, and tab-targetting that defined old school MMOs. Light and heavy attacks were born. Like auto-attacks, light/heavy attacks provide a small amount of ranged or melee damage. Like auto-attacks, they should be weaved between skills during the GCD. Like auto-attacks, their animations can be cancelled by firing off a skill as soon as the animation starts to increase DPS slightly.

    ESO is not the only MMO that made the transition away from auto-attacking. Active light damaging skills are used in other modern MMORPGs as well. Not everyone has been a fan of that transition (see this reddit thread, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/43euzg/discussion_where_did_the_auto_attack_go/ ), but many of us have been, because combat is now far more engaging. It's awesome that we can fire off light attacks ourselves, rather than letting the game do it for us during the GCD. It's also awesome that we can block and dodge attacks ourselves, rather than letting the game do it for us based on our block/dodge stats.

    In sum, please stop suggesting that weaving with light damage attacks is an "exploit." It's something that has existed passively in MMORPGs for many, many, many years.

    EDIT: And in case you needed any further proof that light attack weaving is not an exploit and is actually supported by ZOS, three cheers to @Eremith
    Eremith wrote: »
    It's not an exploit anymore. :smile:
    Official proof:
    iJy2v9G.jpg

    Wrong. It is still an exploit, its a cheap mechanic that is affected by latency. Also, ZoS ONLY put that tool tip there making it "legit" because they are incapable of coding to fix the issue.

    Take note. Wow does not have this issue. Its real simple. Put everything on a global cool down and this solves the problem with the cheese animation cancelling exploit.

  • Raideen
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    It adds an extra tier to skilled gameplay.

    No, it adds the ability for people to do more damage based on latency. Its a cheese mechanic that should have been taken out a long time ago.

  • DoctorESO
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    .


    DoctorESO wrote: »
    Eremith wrote: »
    It's not an exploit anymore. :smile:
    Official proof:
    iJy2v9G.jpg

    So if light attack weaving is an exploit, then will ZOS be banned?

    Is there a parallel with getting too much XP for killing something?

    The people who exploited the IC XP bug have been suspended without pay. At least 246 of them.
    Edited by DoctorESO on February 21, 2018 1:09AM
  • Luigi_Vampa
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    Raideen wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »
    Seriously. There have been SO many threads lately about animation cancelling; light attack weaving almost invariably gets lumped into those discussions.

    I'm assuming that those of you who claim light attack weaving is an exploit have not played many MMORPGs before and do not understand why light/heavy attacks were added to this game. Most old-school MMORPGs (think EverQuest, WoW, LOTRO, etc.) had/have combat systems that feature passive auto-attacks. Auto-attacks provide small amounts of melee or ranged damage, and generally fire off during the global skill cooldown (GCD). Players have ZERO control over auto-attacks, though some of these games do allow you to turn them off (resulting in a small DPS decrease) if you don't like them, or if having auto-attacks turned on results in accidental enemy aggro. A lot of macro and animation cancelling setups in other games require careful timing to make the most of auto-attacks. See this hunter build for LOTRO as an example: http://heedlesstosspotts.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2372522

    Relevant quote (again, for a hunter in LOTRO):
    No matter how well the following things chain skills or cancel animation, your auto-attacks can do both. Don't jam an auto-attack together with a skill, but do try to time skills right after an auto-attack animation begins (the animation begins before your character actually moves to shoot). It is essential to master the timing between each auto-attack. This will make your skill transitions smoother than an oiled butt. If you screw up and use it too late after the auto-attack animation begins, you'll get a short animation lock.

    Guess what ESO had in alpha? You guessed it! Auto-attacks. Long-term MMO players and Elder Scrolls fans wanted a more active combat system, however -- one not reliant on the traditional auto-attacks, auto-blocks, auto-dodging, and tab-targetting that defined old school MMOs. Light and heavy attacks were born. Like auto-attacks, light/heavy attacks provide a small amount of ranged or melee damage. Like auto-attacks, they should be weaved between skills during the GCD. Like auto-attacks, their animations can be cancelled by firing off a skill as soon as the animation starts to increase DPS slightly.

    ESO is not the only MMO that made the transition away from auto-attacking. Active light damaging skills are used in other modern MMORPGs as well. Not everyone has been a fan of that transition (see this reddit thread, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/43euzg/discussion_where_did_the_auto_attack_go/ ), but many of us have been, because combat is now far more engaging. It's awesome that we can fire off light attacks ourselves, rather than letting the game do it for us during the GCD. It's also awesome that we can block and dodge attacks ourselves, rather than letting the game do it for us based on our block/dodge stats.

    In sum, please stop suggesting that weaving with light damage attacks is an "exploit." It's something that has existed passively in MMORPGs for many, many, many years.

    EDIT: And in case you needed any further proof that light attack weaving is not an exploit and is actually supported by ZOS, three cheers to @Eremith
    Eremith wrote: »
    It's not an exploit anymore. :smile:
    Official proof:
    iJy2v9G.jpg

    Wrong. It is still an exploit, its a cheap mechanic that is affected by latency. Also, ZoS ONLY put that tool tip there making it "legit" because they are incapable of coding to fix the issue.

    Take note. Wow does not have this issue. Its real simple. Put everything on a global cool down and this solves the problem with the cheese animation cancelling exploit.

    Making the combat like WoW also makes combat really boring... Also, it isn't an exploit. ZOS says so. It doesn't really matter why they say so, but it is clearly a mechanic now.
    Edited by Luigi_Vampa on February 21, 2018 1:40AM
    PC/EU DC
  • Stinkyremy
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    It is an exploit, do you not remember the quote from matt that said "weaving was an unintended fault in the engine that we have just allowed and ran with" meaning they did not intend for weaving to be in the game, it was just an error of the engine they didn't manage to fix.
  • VaranisArano
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    Stinkyremy wrote: »
    It is an exploit, do you not remember the quote from matt that said "weaving was an unintended fault in the engine that we have just allowed and ran with" meaning they did not intend for weaving to be in the game, it was just an error of the engine they didn't manage to fix.

    Whelp, if its an exploit, its now an exploit that has official instructions for how to do it in the Level Up Advisor.
  • runagate
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    The sad thing is none of the many - and I hesitate to dignify these canards as such - "arguments" are incorrect.

    Could you have been bothered to use Google? No, of course not.

    Animation canceling as a way of boosting DPS was not intended as there were traits that sped up attack speed. Which would make no sense whatsoever.

    It simply wasn't envisioned by the people that designed the systems. Along with a bajillion other things that change once a bajillion crazy people start interacting with the world you build.

    It was also acknowledges as something they ended up liking, stated in person by Wrobel at the Guild Summit. Something which some people who still post here actually attended. That's where we got audio of the Itemization team and found that one of the main problems with ESO development is that some, not all, people who design things are completely unfamiliar with this game. Also early on we found out there's some maniac in the art department who is lethal in naked pvp. Don't know his name. Kinda scary.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1532782#Comment_1532782

    Earlier posts before that one - and they started in May 2014 - exist but without developer feedback being known on these issues.

    Now please stop this. There's something called consensus reality and simply asserting things because you feel like it is misleading actually sane human beings who come here for information and is actually against the TOS.
  • Aurielle
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    runagate wrote: »
    The sad thing is none of the many - and I hesitate to dignify these canards as such - "arguments" are incorrect.

    Could you have been bothered to use Google? No, of course not.

    Animation canceling as a way of boosting DPS was not intended as there were traits that sped up attack speed. Which would make no sense whatsoever.

    It simply wasn't envisioned by the people that designed the systems. Along with a bajillion other things that change once a bajillion crazy people start interacting with the world you build.

    It was also acknowledges as something they ended up liking, stated in person by Wrobel at the Guild Summit. Something which some people who still post here actually attended. That's where we got audio of the Itemization team and found that one of the main problems with ESO development is that some, not all, people who design things are completely unfamiliar with this game. Also early on we found out there's some maniac in the art department who is lethal in naked pvp. Don't know his name. Kinda scary.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1532782#Comment_1532782

    Earlier posts before that one - and they started in May 2014 - exist but without developer feedback being known on these issues.

    Now please stop this. There's something called consensus reality and simply asserting things because you feel like it is misleading actually sane human beings who come here for information and is actually against the TOS.

    I'd like to point out that this thread is about light attack weaving, not the various other forms of animation cancelling that exist in the game. I'm somewhat amazed that you're suggesting it's against the TOS to point out that light attack weaving is not an exploit, when the game's own level advisor encourages players to weave in order to maximize their DPS output.
  • MisterBigglesworth
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    Imagine if ZOS took this same tact with other "features" over the years
    bRc1C28.jpg
    Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    I'd prefer it if the game actually explained how to do light attack weaving to increase your DPS, but then a basic role tutorial would be nice period. The Skill Advisor should help a little with players' selecting skills, but the stuff that's crucial to good DPS like light attack weaving, a rotation of DOTS and single target skills, heavy attack weaving, and bar swap canceling is only found in player guides.

    I agree that if light weaving and AC are such an important part of completing content in this game that it should have a tutorial on it rather than just a random tip thrown in. I think the whole tutorial system needs some love. It really isnt super helpful and ESO is really different than a lot of MMOs. If you played the TES series AND MMOs then you can get the hang of it. But if you only played one or the other your kind of the creek.

    Weaving essential for some skills. Merciless Resolve for example.Also works that way with Elemental Drain and Siphon spirit.The hints are there.
  • dsalter
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    Imagine if ZOS took this same tact with other "features" over the years
    bRc1C28.jpg

    i must have missed that little detail, jee wizz good thing that info is there i'd never have gotten so gud oh boy oh boy
    PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread

    EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
    Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.

  • IZZEFlameLash
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    Back in 2015 or so, ZOS decided that they basically could not fix it and declared animation cancelling was an unintended feature. And in 2018, we still have no real improvements to it. There's still frequently, especially with staves and dw on templar where light or medium attacks fail to fire (frequently on mNB when pairing with strife and its morphs such as Swallow Soul) before skill. Ending up getting locked in heavy attack for the duration of charging up the attack and skill (I think it takes this long at least). I want to see this overhauled so that it flows smoothly. Light attack weaves have been part of the games for a while now.

    And weaving wasn't to be considered an exploit. Now block cancel and such were causing much griefs amongst players back then they took a vague stance about it back then before coming around to say it is an unintended feature too. They didn't seem to have said anything about weaving even then. As they also did at one point had auto attacks. Weaving is not an exploit, so is other cancels ever since 2015 officially. They just need to overhaul it so it actually look good and flow smoothly, not clunky.
    Edited by IZZEFlameLash on February 21, 2018 5:40AM
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Koensol
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    Raideen wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »
    Seriously. There have been SO many threads lately about animation cancelling; light attack weaving almost invariably gets lumped into those discussions.

    I'm assuming that those of you who claim light attack weaving is an exploit have not played many MMORPGs before and do not understand why light/heavy attacks were added to this game. Most old-school MMORPGs (think EverQuest, WoW, LOTRO, etc.) had/have combat systems that feature passive auto-attacks. Auto-attacks provide small amounts of melee or ranged damage, and generally fire off during the global skill cooldown (GCD). Players have ZERO control over auto-attacks, though some of these games do allow you to turn them off (resulting in a small DPS decrease) if you don't like them, or if having auto-attacks turned on results in accidental enemy aggro. A lot of macro and animation cancelling setups in other games require careful timing to make the most of auto-attacks. See this hunter build for LOTRO as an example: http://heedlesstosspotts.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2372522

    Relevant quote (again, for a hunter in LOTRO):
    No matter how well the following things chain skills or cancel animation, your auto-attacks can do both. Don't jam an auto-attack together with a skill, but do try to time skills right after an auto-attack animation begins (the animation begins before your character actually moves to shoot). It is essential to master the timing between each auto-attack. This will make your skill transitions smoother than an oiled butt. If you screw up and use it too late after the auto-attack animation begins, you'll get a short animation lock.

    Guess what ESO had in alpha? You guessed it! Auto-attacks. Long-term MMO players and Elder Scrolls fans wanted a more active combat system, however -- one not reliant on the traditional auto-attacks, auto-blocks, auto-dodging, and tab-targetting that defined old school MMOs. Light and heavy attacks were born. Like auto-attacks, light/heavy attacks provide a small amount of ranged or melee damage. Like auto-attacks, they should be weaved between skills during the GCD. Like auto-attacks, their animations can be cancelled by firing off a skill as soon as the animation starts to increase DPS slightly.

    ESO is not the only MMO that made the transition away from auto-attacking. Active light damaging skills are used in other modern MMORPGs as well. Not everyone has been a fan of that transition (see this reddit thread, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/43euzg/discussion_where_did_the_auto_attack_go/ ), but many of us have been, because combat is now far more engaging. It's awesome that we can fire off light attacks ourselves, rather than letting the game do it for us during the GCD. It's also awesome that we can block and dodge attacks ourselves, rather than letting the game do it for us based on our block/dodge stats.

    In sum, please stop suggesting that weaving with light damage attacks is an "exploit." It's something that has existed passively in MMORPGs for many, many, many years.

    EDIT: And in case you needed any further proof that light attack weaving is not an exploit and is actually supported by ZOS, three cheers to @Eremith
    Eremith wrote: »
    It's not an exploit anymore. :smile:
    Official proof:
    iJy2v9G.jpg

    Wrong. It is still an exploit, its a cheap mechanic that is affected by latency. Also, ZoS ONLY put that tool tip there making it "legit" because they are incapable of coding to fix the issue.

    Take note. Wow does not have this issue. Its real simple. Put everything on a global cool down and this solves the problem with the cheese animation cancelling exploit.
    Oh look. Yet another person with a crystal ball. Why don't you go ahead and tell us of alll ZOS's plans and internal projects? Please enlighten me with your knowledge.
  • Faulgor
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    runagate wrote: »
    Animation canceling as a way of boosting DPS was not intended as there were traits that sped up attack speed. Which would make no sense whatsoever.

    Man, I miss weighted and Haste. I made my Orc Nightblade specifically with an attackspeed build in mind. Shame they completely removed it from the game.

    I remember when they removed weighted, Wrobel said (on ESO live) that he'd eventually like to see attackspeed bonuses come back somehow. Of course that will never happen, but it would still be nice.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Joy_Division
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    dsalter wrote: »
    dsalter wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »
    dsalter wrote: »
    GreenhaloX wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »
    dsalter wrote: »
    if you dared to read most of them its not the light attacking "weaving" you are thinking of. its spazzing attacks to clip off animations using things like weapon swap and block tapping... aka animation cancelling, you know, the ACTUAL bug?

    Oh, really? Read the OFFICIAL ZOS ADVICE in the image posted above: "For maximum damage, activate abilities immediately after using a Light Attack." If you do as the ZOS devs recommend and activate a skill immediately after a light attack, you will cancel the light attack animation. IT'S NOT A BUG. Animation cancelling has existed in MMORPGs for years, and years, and years.

    And yes, people are complaining about light attack weaving in other threads. It's not just about weapon swap cancels, or block cancels. There are people who claim you should not be able to fire off a light attack and a skill at almost the exact same time, and these people seem not to understand that that's PRECISELY how passive auto-attacking works with skills in other MMOs.

    Oh, got it..

    light attack weaving is where you throw in light attacks between every ability.
    animation cancelling is where you use weapon swapping/block to cut abilities animations shorter to speed them up. aka animation cancelling.
    OP is gunna make himself look dumb if he doesnt know the difference.
    weaving is mostly supported animation wise tho my NB healer spamming siphon and light attacks is kind of jerky.

    LOL, I do know the difference. You ignored what I said (again). There are in fact people who claim that weaving -- especially when it involves cancelling the animation of the light attack -- is unintended.

    the image explains weaving... not animation cancelling...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=ThZtwhYkKSs

    Here you go, the lead combat dev explaining that animation cancelling is an integral part of the game.

    embracing it. not intending it, eric isn't exactly someone people like for good reason, he makes alot of wtf choices.
    if it was intended they'd i dunno... fix it and teach it in the default game?
    no raid or hard mode should rely on something that you have to learn off site to be able to compete in it

    What does it matter what was intended?

    It was intended that groups could be comprised of the same alliance. It was intended the ultimate generation was to be dynamic. The intended endgame progression was supposed to be Veteran ranks. It was intended that an Alliance's fortunes in cyrodiil would effect PvE performance.

    People, game, things, everything changes. A change could be intended. Just because the devs changed their mind about something, does not mean the change is somehow invalid or the original intention is some sacrosanct element that must be preserved no matter what.

    Eric Wrobel is a member of the ZoS team who happened to be speaking for the company. It doesn't matter if you or other people might not like some of his choices, that does not somehow make him an illegitimate representative of ZoS. He certainly is more representative than you.

    And there aren't step by step instructions or a tutorial in the game on how to beat Vet Maelstrom Arena, Maw of Lorgkaj, Asylum Sanctorium hard mode, etc. These are all things you need to figure out on your own, learn of site, and come up with your own strategies, builds and tactics.
  • ZOS_Ragnar
    ZOS_Ragnar
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    We have closed this thread as it has gotten out of hand. You will not always agree with the opinions you encounter on the forums, and that’s okay. It’s perfectly acceptable to disagree, but please do not put other people down for their opinions, ideas, or suggestions. In the future, please ensure your posts remain civil and constructive. Remember posting personal insults is never acceptable behavior.
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