Testing the Master Bow vs. the Maelstrom Bow

Masel · February 2018

Hello!

I did a bit of testing this morning, because people keep saying than you need a Maelstrom Bow to do great DPS on a Stamina Toon, which is wrong. A Master Bow is not only a perfect substitute in certain single target scenarios, it is even better in single target fights and fights where bosses move a lot as the Injection stays on while they might run out of your Endless Hail.

Rotation was the same on both build:

Hail > LA > injection > LA > Caltrops > (LA > Ballista when ready) > Bar Swap > Heavy Attack > Hurricane > HA > Trap > HA > Rending Slashes > HA > Blade Cloak > Bar Swap > Repeat.

Build:

All i did was swap out the two bows, both nirnhoned.

Here's a couple of Parses on a 6m dummy:

Two parses with the Master Bow:

Two with a Maelstrom Bow:

I did about 10 parses with each weapon, and the Master Bow won by about 800-1000 DPS overall. So you can see that the Maelstrom bow gives youa bout 1.3-1.5k DPS on endless hail, but the Master Bow buffs all of your damage by a significant amount.

So you can dismiss the fact that you need a Maelstrom Bow to dish out good DPS, you can also use a Master Bow on the back bar, just make sure that poison injection hits the target before you bar swap, for this you just need to have it as the second skill on the back bar. If you choose to run shrouded daggers and put hurricane on the back bar, you can also use it as the third skill.

Now this doesnt mean that the weapons are balanced out. On other classes and builds that rely less on Heavy Attacks, the Master Bow does about the same DPS as a Maelstrom Bow. Taking into account that the Maelstrom Bow is full AoE, the balancing here is not at all perfect, and could use a readjustment!

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Now do one with more then one target.

Masel · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

It is impossible to do a reliable dummy test with more than one at the same place, because if one dies, the other one will still be alive and in the meantime the second one will respawn....

In most cases, single target damage is all that matters, and there the master bow actually is advantageous in amyn scenarios, as it gives you more burst damage then a maelstrom bow. The more you have to recast hail to hit different targets, the less damage it will give you..

It is a situational thing, I know for myself that I'm definetely going to try master bow in trials now...

Qbiken · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

I think the big + here is that it´s easier to get the Master Bow than it is to get your hands on a vMA bow. And if the difference is as tiny in DPS as masel shows then it can be worthwhile to use Master bow for certain players.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

I think the big + here is that it´s easier to get the Master Bow than it is to get your hands on a vMA bow. And if the difference is as tiny in DPS as masel shows then it can be worthwhile to use Master bow for certain players.

I would most definitely not say that, I have ran vDSA at least 100 times and have only seen one bow, meanwhile my mag sorc clears vMA like 40 times and I got 10 bows. So.

The problem with these tests is this guy has really low weapon damage, only 4.5k, so of course adding 300 weapon damage is going to add a ton of flat damage. His endless hail with the vMA bow is really low too, I have personally see upwards of 8k ticks and the highest I have seen is 10k+ with proper group support. And this guy's is a sorc using heavy attacks as a spammable, so again, adding 300 weapon damage will make it look better.

Maulkin · February 2018

Good work @Masel92. I definitely agree on the huge bonus of target based effects vs ground based effects that bosses can walk out of.

I do DPS as a Stam DK in trials (usually a buffer/debuffer role with Morag + Sunder) and since the raid has a Morag Tong buff I was told Spawn of Mephala would be the best monster set to use due to the Poison damage it inflicts and how its buffed by Morag. However I found that quite often the 10" duration of Mephala proc is too long and bosses walked out it.

I decided to do a DPS test in which I proceeded to drop the Mephala set altogether. I used Sunder on the body (3 jewels + head + shoulders) and equipped Master's Axe & Dagger with the Rending Slashes set.

The parse on the dummy showed a small (~700 avg) increase on the dps because the extra 1.5k damage per tick on the Rending Slashes DoT is also increased by Crit, something that doesn't happen with any proc set including Mephala.

When I analysed Combat Metrics parses post raid, I found Master's Axe/Dagger to be even more effective in the raid compared to the dummy parses, precisely because some bosses (vAS being a prime example) jump about and the Rending Slashes bleed stuck with them, unlike the Mephala proc.

In fact I'm slowly coming to the conclusion after also reading this thread that Master's Weapons are BIS when it comes to single target DPS, especially on a moving target.

Masel · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

I think the big + here is that it´s easier to get the Master Bow than it is to get your hands on a vMA bow. And if the difference is as tiny in DPS as masel shows then it can be worthwhile to use Master bow for certain players.

I would most definitely not say that, I have ran vDSA at least 100 times and have only seen one bow, meanwhile my mag sorc clears vMA like 40 times and I got 10 bows. So.

The problem with these tests is this guy has really low weapon damage, only 4.5k, so of course adding 300 weapon damage is going to add a ton of flat damage. His endless hail with the vMA bow is really low too, I have personally see upwards of 8k ticks and the highest I have seen is 10k+ with proper group support. And this guy's is a sorc using heavy attacks as a spammable, so again, adding 300 weapon damage will make it look better.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The Master Bow damage actually scales better with raid buffs than the endless hail from a maelstrom bow, because the flat tick buff from maelstrom bow only benefits from physical penetration. I could get more weapon damage with something like automaton and a nirnhoned mainhand and infused offhand, sure. This isnt going to change the comparison at all though.

All classes use heavy attacks now. Even if a stamsorc and stam DK benefit the most from a Master bow, where's the problem with that. What you do is claim that my testing is biased from the beginning, which I disagree with. i made it as consistent as i could and used a build that i actually use in current raids, so I most likely wont have different base stats within a raid.

All i wanted to show is that if you cant beat maelstrom but have a group that can finish DSA, use a master bow instead. And if you want to push more single target, you can also use a master bow. If you disagree with what i say, prove it. Get on another class, test it, show the results.

Qbiken · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

I think the big + here is that it´s easier to get the Master Bow than it is to get your hands on a vMA bow. And if the difference is as tiny in DPS as masel shows then it can be worthwhile to use Master bow for certain players.

I would most definitely not say that, I have ran vDSA at least 100 times and have only seen one bow, meanwhile my mag sorc clears vMA like 40 times and I got 10 bows. So.

The problem with these tests is this guy has really low weapon damage, only 4.5k, so of course adding 300 weapon damage is going to add a ton of flat damage. His endless hail with the vMA bow is really low too, I have personally see upwards of 8k ticks and the highest I have seen is 10k+ with proper group support. And this guy's is a sorc using heavy attacks as a spammable, so again, adding 300 weapon damage will make it look better.

That´s the wonders of RNG (sarcasm). But pure numbers will favour vDSA over vMA when it comes to how likely it is to get a bow.

Masel · February 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

I think the big + here is that it´s easier to get the Master Bow than it is to get your hands on a vMA bow. And if the difference is as tiny in DPS as masel shows then it can be worthwhile to use Master bow for certain players.

I would most definitely not say that, I have ran vDSA at least 100 times and have only seen one bow, meanwhile my mag sorc clears vMA like 40 times and I got 10 bows. So.

The problem with these tests is this guy has really low weapon damage, only 4.5k, so of course adding 300 weapon damage is going to add a ton of flat damage. His endless hail with the vMA bow is really low too, I have personally see upwards of 8k ticks and the highest I have seen is 10k+ with proper group support. And this guy's is a sorc using heavy attacks as a spammable, so again, adding 300 weapon damage will make it look better.

That´s the wonders of RNG (sarcasm). But pure numbers will favour vDSA over vMA when it comes to how likely it is to get a bow.

it is pretty equal, thats all this thread was supposed to say. I just wanted to get rid of the statement "vMA bow or nothing". Which is objectively false. In AoE, yes, the vMA bow is by far superior to any other substitute, but in single target it adds at maximum 1.5k dps, and a master bow gets very close to that and beats it in ceratin scenarios.

Which still deosnt make it balanced. The vMA needs to be tuned down a bit, or the master bow needs to be tuned up more. Becasue one is AoE and one is single target, so it doesnt make sense that they both are somewhat equal in a single target scenario.

EDIT: Hopped onto my stamplar and tested it with my vAS+2 Build.

Master Bow:

Maelstrom:

Not really any difference between the two.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

I think the big + here is that it´s easier to get the Master Bow than it is to get your hands on a vMA bow. And if the difference is as tiny in DPS as masel shows then it can be worthwhile to use Master bow for certain players.

I would most definitely not say that, I have ran vDSA at least 100 times and have only seen one bow, meanwhile my mag sorc clears vMA like 40 times and I got 10 bows. So.

The problem with these tests is this guy has really low weapon damage, only 4.5k, so of course adding 300 weapon damage is going to add a ton of flat damage. His endless hail with the vMA bow is really low too, I have personally see upwards of 8k ticks and the highest I have seen is 10k+ with proper group support. And this guy's is a sorc using heavy attacks as a spammable, so again, adding 300 weapon damage will make it look better.

That´s the wonders of RNG (sarcasm). But pure numbers will favour vDSA over vMA when it comes to how likely it is to get a bow.

it is pretty equal, thats all this thread was supposed to say. I just wanted to get rid of the statement "vMA bow or nothing". Which is objectively false. In AoE, yes, the vMA bow is by far superior to any other substitute, but in single target it adds at maximum 1.5k dps, and a master bow gets very close to that and beats it in ceratin scenarios.

Which still deosnt make it balanced. The vMA needs to be tuned down a bit, or the master bow needs to be tuned up more. Becasue one is AoE and one is single target, so it doesnt make sense that they both are somewhat equal in a single target scenario.

Qbiken is just saying the chance to get one or the other is easter to get. they are not saying anything about the dps either is providing you.

kylewwefan · February 2018

VMA is far easier with a VMA bow than a masters bow IMHO. Masters weapons are very strong in single target situations. They’re probably really good in Trials. After the trash is taken care of.

Like you say, it’s situational.

Bladerunner1 · February 2018

Interesting stuff! Thanks for testing that out.

Masel92 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

It is impossible to do a reliable dummy test with more than one at the same place, because if one dies, the other one will still be alive and in the meantime the second one will respawn....

You could always build a collection of precursor dummies to compare AOE parts of one build to another. Aside from having low resistance they're almost the same strength as vDLC trash mobs and they all tend to fall at the same time for me when trying out AOE stuff.

magictucktuck · February 2018

lol not using a MASTER weapon instead of VMA is not the issue. Master weapons are harder to get the VMA since not only do you need to be good but you need friends.

the issue is not being able to get either and using a plain weapon.

NO ONE EVER means u MUST use VMA cant us masters bow

EDIT: most people are just able to achive eventually getting a VMA weapon, while most people will never do VET DSA to completion

Masel · February 2018

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Interesting stuff! Thanks for testing that out.

Masel92 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Now do one with more then one target.

It is impossible to do a reliable dummy test with more than one at the same place, because if one dies, the other one will still be alive and in the meantime the second one will respawn....

You could always build a collection of precursor dummies to compare AOE parts of one build to another. Aside from having low resistance they're almost the same strength as vDLC trash mobs and they all tend to fall at the same time for me when trying out AOE stuff.

Thats actually a good idea, thanks!

Maulkin · February 2018

magictucktuck wrote: »

lol not using a MASTER weapon instead of VMA is not the issue. Master weapons are harder to get the VMA since not only do you need to be good but you need friends.

the issue is not being able to get either and using a plain weapon.

NO ONE EVER means u MUST use VMA cant us masters bow

EDIT: most people are just able to achive eventually getting a VMA weapon, while most people will never do VET DSA to completion

Considering these comparisons on tiny differences are only relevant in strictly Vet Trial context, if you can find 12 people to do trials you can sure find 4 people to do vDSA. Simple as.

If you're talking about guild-less people doing vet dungeons, then who the hell cares. You can go get every single Vet Dungeon achievement in a basic Spriggan-Hunding-Agility setup that requires precisely 0 grinding.

For people in PvE guilds, getting Master's weapons is 4 times as easy as getting Maelstrom ones. Simply cause you get 4 drops in the end instead of 1.

Asardes · February 2018

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

Ragnarock41 · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

molten armament only buffs your Fully charged heavy attacks. no lights or mediums.
(also its igneous weapons, not ingenous and it does not buff your heavy attacks, that is the other morph, molten armaments :P )
Other than that you are correct.

Asardes · February 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

it only buffs your Fully charged heavy attacks. no lights or mediums.
(also its igneous weapons, not ingenous :P )
Other than that you are correct.

There's no such thing as "medium attack". An attack that's not fully charged and doesn't auto-release at the end is considered light by the game engine for all needs and purposes.

Maulkin · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

it only buffs your Fully charged heavy attacks. no lights or mediums.
(also its igneous weapons, not ingenous :P )
Other than that you are correct.

There's no such thing as "medium attack". An attack that's not fully charged and doesn't auto-release at the end is considered light by the game engine for all needs and purposes.

Don't medium attacks do more damage than light attacks?

Asardes · February 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

it only buffs your Fully charged heavy attacks. no lights or mediums.
(also its igneous weapons, not ingenous :P )
Other than that you are correct.

There's no such thing as "medium attack". An attack that's not fully charged and doesn't auto-release at the end is considered light by the game engine for all needs and purposes.

Don't medium attacks do more damage than light attacks?

They indeed do slightly more, but damage/charge ratio time is lower than either a tick light attack or a fully charged heavy attack. See here a more detailed discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390244/heavy-attack-resources-and-damage-scaling-a-100-millisecond-breakdown-all-weapons

NyassaV · February 2018

@Gilliamtherogue I'm afraid to say anything here cuz I'm a stam n00b

Maulkin · February 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

it only buffs your Fully charged heavy attacks. no lights or mediums.
(also its igneous weapons, not ingenous :P )
Other than that you are correct.

There's no such thing as "medium attack". An attack that's not fully charged and doesn't auto-release at the end is considered light by the game engine for all needs and purposes.

Don't medium attacks do more damage than light attacks?

They indeed do slightly more, but damage/charge ratio time is lower than either a tick light attack or a fully charged heavy attack. See here a more detailed discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390244/heavy-attack-resources-and-damage-scaling-a-100-millisecond-breakdown-all-weapons

That's not my point. My point is if they do more dmg than light attacks, then clearly the engine differentiates. Since damage calculations are of course part of the game engine.

Techincally you have: Light, Heavy, Fully Charged Heavy. And colloquially these are called: light, medium, heavy.

It's an abbreviation.

Illurian · February 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

it only buffs your Fully charged heavy attacks. no lights or mediums.
(also its igneous weapons, not ingenous :P )
Other than that you are correct.

There's no such thing as "medium attack". An attack that's not fully charged and doesn't auto-release at the end is considered light by the game engine for all needs and purposes.

Don't medium attacks do more damage than light attacks?

They indeed do slightly more, but damage/charge ratio time is lower than either a tick light attack or a fully charged heavy attack. See here a more detailed discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390244/heavy-attack-resources-and-damage-scaling-a-100-millisecond-breakdown-all-weapons

That's not my point. My point is if they do more dmg than light attacks, then clearly the engine differentiates. Since damage calculations are of course part of the game engine.

Techincally you have: Light, Heavy, Fully Charged Heavy. And colloquially these are called: light, medium, heavy.

It's an abbreviation.

I think what Asardes is saying is that what you call "medium" attacks count as light attacks for all intents and purposes pertaining to game mechanics involving heavy/light attacks. The damage is scaled up based on the charge time, but anything requiring a "heavy attack" will not work with a "medium" attack.

From my understanding, you are both essentially saying the same thing.

I'd like to know if "medium" attacks restore resources at all? I'd expect it not to, so that might be a good indicator of whether it is a heavy or light attack.

Maulkin · February 2018

Illurian wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

it only buffs your Fully charged heavy attacks. no lights or mediums.
(also its igneous weapons, not ingenous :P )
Other than that you are correct.

There's no such thing as "medium attack". An attack that's not fully charged and doesn't auto-release at the end is considered light by the game engine for all needs and purposes.

Don't medium attacks do more damage than light attacks?

They indeed do slightly more, but damage/charge ratio time is lower than either a tick light attack or a fully charged heavy attack. See here a more detailed discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390244/heavy-attack-resources-and-damage-scaling-a-100-millisecond-breakdown-all-weapons

That's not my point. My point is if they do more dmg than light attacks, then clearly the engine differentiates. Since damage calculations are of course part of the game engine.

Techincally you have: Light, Heavy, Fully Charged Heavy. And colloquially these are called: light, medium, heavy.

It's an abbreviation.

I think what Asardes is saying is that what you call "medium" attacks count as light attacks for all intents and purposes pertaining to game mechanics involving heavy/light attacks. The damage is scaled up based on the charge time, but anything requiring a "heavy attack" will not work with a "medium" attack.

From my understanding, you are both essentially saying the same thing.

I'd like to know if "medium" attacks restore resources at all? I'd expect it not to, so that might be a good indicator of whether it is a heavy or light attack.

You are right, in that we're both saying the same thing.

Medium attacks do not restore resources, only full heavies.

Ahzek · February 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

I think Master's Bow is a very interesting weapon on stamina DK on stamina NB due to two reasons: both classes already excel at single target damage, and both rely on heavy and light attacks weave respectively, and the former has a skill that buffs that specifically - Ingenous Weapons. As everyone knows heavy and light attacks scale mostly on weapon damage, so Master's bow will buff those even more against a target affected by Poison Injection. Templar, Warden and Sorcerer will see a bit less benefit from using Master vs. Maelstrom since they excel mostly at cleave damage.

it only buffs your Fully charged heavy attacks. no lights or mediums.
(also its igneous weapons, not ingenous :P )
Other than that you are correct.

There's no such thing as "medium attack". An attack that's not fully charged and doesn't auto-release at the end is considered light by the game engine for all needs and purposes.

Don't medium attacks do more damage than light attacks?

They indeed do slightly more, but damage/charge ratio time is lower than either a tick light attack or a fully charged heavy attack. See here a more detailed discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390244/heavy-attack-resources-and-damage-scaling-a-100-millisecond-breakdown-all-weapons

That's not my point. My point is if they do more dmg than light attacks, then clearly the engine differentiates. Since damage calculations are of course part of the game engine.

Techincally you have: Light, Heavy, Fully Charged Heavy. And colloquially these are called: light, medium, heavy.

It's an abbreviation.

I think what Asardes is saying is that what you call "medium" attacks count as light attacks for all intents and purposes pertaining to game mechanics involving heavy/light attacks. The damage is scaled up based on the charge time, but anything requiring a "heavy attack" will not work with a "medium" attack.

From my understanding, you are both essentially saying the same thing.

I'd like to know if "medium" attacks restore resources at all? I'd expect it not to, so that might be a good indicator of whether it is a heavy or light attack.

You are right, in that we're both saying the same thing.

Medium attacks do not restore resources, only full heavies.

Light attacks count as light attacks.

Not fully charged heavies count as heavy attacks. They only get the boni heavy attacks would get, but not the boni only fully charged heavy attacks get.
Whats important to note here, is that these "medium" attacks initially start with a dip in damage compared to light attacks, until they build up their damage over the charge time up until they become full heavy attacks

Full heavies get all heavy attack related boni.

Gilliamtherogue · February 2018

Cool to see tests like this being done, but I'm afraid that the scope in which this test was done will potentially have misleading results.

Master's Bow grants you a flat amount of Weapon Damage towards the target affected by your Poison Injection. This means bonuses to Weapon Damage (Major, Minor Brutality, Medium Armor, and some class passives such as Sorc or Templar, the two classes you tested under) will increase this, and that's it. This effectively puts a hard limit on the scaling potential of this. Also in this test environment, the Bow is reaching closer to its maximum potential due to these class passives that are unique to the classes you tested on. This also means that some classes who use skills that have poor Weapon Damage scaling, or none at all, will see a deficit in some areas.

Maelstrom Bow on the other hand, adds raw damage to mix in such a manner that is calculated as the original entity is. This means that it will scale further with things like CP, Major/Minor Berserk, Vulnerability, etc. This effectively means that the ceiling of damage potential will be much higher when compared to the Master's Bow.

If you were interested in getting a much more accurate look at the discrepancies between these two weapons, I would suggest adding in some baselines such as;

-Max penetration attained
-Same CP allocation for each
-Minor group buffs such as Berserk, Vulnerability, and Warhorn

Doing such will allow the advantages and disadvantages of these two weapon augments to equalize, as well as having a better idea of how they'll operate in actual combat.

Masel · February 2018

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Cool to see tests like this being done, but I'm afraid that the scope in which this test was done will potentially have misleading results.

Master's Bow grants you a flat amount of Weapon Damage towards the target affected by your Poison Injection. This means bonuses to Weapon Damage (Major, Minor Brutality, Medium Armor, and some class passives such as Sorc or Templar, the two classes you tested under) will increase this, and that's it. This effectively puts a hard limit on the scaling potential of this. Also in this test environment, the Bow is reaching closer to its maximum potential due to these class passives that are unique to the classes you tested on. This also means that some classes who use skills that have poor Weapon Damage scaling, or none at all, will see a deficit in some areas.

Maelstrom Bow on the other hand, adds raw damage to mix in such a manner that is calculated as the original entity is. This means that it will scale further with things like CP, Major/Minor Berserk, Vulnerability, etc. This effectively means that the ceiling of damage potential will be much higher when compared to the Master's Bow.

If you were interested in getting a much more accurate look at the discrepancies between these two weapons, I would suggest adding in some baselines such as;

-Max penetration attained
-Same CP allocation for each
-Minor group buffs such as Berserk, Vulnerability, and Warhorn

Doing such will allow the advantages and disadvantages of these two weapon augments to equalize, as well as having a better idea of how they'll operate in actual combat.

I appreciate the feedback, but as far as the scaling of benefits goes:

While it is true that the flat value benefits from cps etc, so does the 300 weapon damage.
In the above testing everything is the same, rotation, cps, gear, only thing that changes is the bow itself.

The flat value of the maelstrom bow gets added after the scaling of maximum stamina and weapon damage:

Base damage=a*Stamina+b*WD+c <- the c is a constant where the maelstrom value gets added in.

This gets multiplied with additive cps, critical damage, other damage done and 1-level of penetration.

So the only difference in scaling is where the damage gets added in. Master bow adds 301 to the WD variable and Thunderous Volley adds the increasing flat number to the c variable, after that it is exactly the same formula.

Also, I know that the two classes I used here benefit from their respective passives, but as far as my testing of stamina dragonknight goes, it also verifies the conclusions I came to above due to the fact that they have higher damage coming from heavy attacks. Both weapons lead to more or less the same dps. Only class I haven't tested is the stamina nightblade because I haven't played him in ages...

In fact, having increased damage from heavy attacks will even work for the 70% increased damage against off-balance enemies.

I know it is all situational and I never claimed that the master bow is ultimately superior.

I just found the gap between the two in single target application to be very small, regardless of what class you use it on as long as you use it in single target.

magictucktuck · February 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

magictucktuck wrote: »

lol not using a MASTER weapon instead of VMA is not the issue. Master weapons are harder to get the VMA since not only do you need to be good but you need friends.

the issue is not being able to get either and using a plain weapon.

NO ONE EVER means u MUST use VMA cant us masters bow

EDIT: most people are just able to achive eventually getting a VMA weapon, while most people will never do VET DSA to completion

Considering these comparisons on tiny differences are only relevant in strictly Vet Trial context, if you can find 12 people to do trials you can sure find 4 people to do vDSA. Simple as.

If you're talking about guild-less people doing vet dungeons, then who the hell cares. You can go get every single Vet Dungeon achievement in a basic Spriggan-Hunding-Agility setup that requires precisely 0 grinding.

For people in PvE guilds, getting Master's weapons is 4 times as easy as getting Maelstrom ones. Simply cause you get 4 drops in the end instead of 1.

I see what you’re getting at but people already fully geared and doing trials are not the ones asking that question. It’s people who want to be feel like their gear sucks because they don’t have these weapons.

At least that’s what I’ve seen, it’s never the already 1% wondering that stuff

T3hasiangod · February 2018

Just to add more data to this discussion, I did this test already about 3 weeks ago now (results can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV4hx07EeRs). I came to the exact opposite conclusion on my stamDK; namely that the Master's Bow pulls about 1.6 percent lower than the Maelstrom bow.

All I did was swap out the bows, everything else remained the same.

Bladerunner1 · February 2018

I can imagine it also depends on whether you let the Hawkeye passive drop off or not. The maelstrom bow would be less forgiving in that regard.

Masel · February 2018

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Just to add more data to this discussion, I did this test already about 3 weeks ago now (results can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV4hx07EeRs). I came to the exact opposite conclusion on my stamDK; namely that the Master's Bow pulls about 1.6 percent lower than the Maelstrom bow.

All I did was swap out the bows, everything else remained the same.

I'm gonna do more stamina dk testing in the next days and see if I come to the same conclusion, bit today it was about the same damage from either of them.

But there is a problem with the master bow in general, injection is two seconds too short... Most stamina rotations take about 12 seconds, while master bow favours 10.