Make vampire hunters a thing again

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

I love how this forum uses basic unrelated things to try and stop changes being made. If we mention a bug some people exploited from before or an already strong skill nobody mentioned about buffing, maybe things will go away.

The truth is that they won't. When most of the player base is turning vampire as the ONLY way to play, it KILLS build diversity.

Gothrock

Vampires should lose 10% regens, but bats and drain have to be buffed. These changes will prevent all pve-ers from being vampires, and will award vampire playstyle in pvp / solo.

Anhedonie

By "balance" you mean NB's one-shotting 60k health emperors by simply using camo hunter?

SugaComa

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

The added mobility vampire brings in particular is essential to a range of builds, basically magicka builds of certain classes would be nigh unplayable in PvP without it. I'd be all for fixing these builds so they don't rely on Mist Form, but ZOS has other ideas and as long as it doesn't happen, vamp will remain popular, despite the drawbacks.

Name one class that is unplayable by not being a vampire ?

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Anhedonie wrote: »

By "balance" you mean NB's one-shotting 60k health emperors by simply using camo hunter?

Again, that was an EXPLOIT which was fixed. Again you are using that as an excuse to keep the status quo.

Was that intended to occur? No.

Would anybody except the most biased NB want that? No

aeowulf

No reason to not be vampire apart from cosmetic. The 25% fire damage is mostly countered by vamp low health passive, which makes it very strong for other damage types. CP easily makes up the difference. Then you get good regen & no sneak speed penalty, so basically access to an extra skill tree...

So I agree with OP, kinda. I'd just turn fighters guild tree into one that a vamp/WW could not use skills or passives from.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

aeowulf wrote: »

No reason to not be vampire apart from cosmetic. The 25% fire damage is mostly countered by vamp low health passive, which makes it very strong for other damage types. CP easily makes up the difference. Then you get good regen & no sneak speed penalty, so basically access to an extra skill tree...

So I agree with OP, kinda. I'd just turn fighters guild tree into one that a vamp/WW could not use skills or passives from.

All that would do is affect those stam vamps who run Dawnbreaker. Magicka Vampires would be completely unaffected by that change.

Passive wise it would affect PvE but not PvP as much. And again hit stam harder than Magicka.

Just buff some of the fighters guild abilities to hit vamps harder to naturally balance things out, possibly some mages guild skills too to give Magicka options to fight back.

Notice: NO BUFFS TO DAWNBREAKER OR EXPLOIT ON CAMO HUNTER. just to further state this as people keep posting the same things regarding these. WE KNOW

AllPlayAndNoWork

Where is the LOL button when you need it.........

idk

It really seems some think it should be extremely easy to kill a vamp rather than just easier. Being easier to kill seems to not be enough for some.

aeowulf

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

No reason to not be vampire apart from cosmetic. The 25% fire damage is mostly countered by vamp low health passive, which makes it very strong for other damage types. CP easily makes up the difference. Then you get good regen & no sneak speed penalty, so basically access to an extra skill tree...

So I agree with OP, kinda. I'd just turn fighters guild tree into one that a vamp/WW could not use skills or passives from.

All that would do is affect those stam vamps who run Dawnbreaker. Magicka Vampires would be completely unaffected by that change.

Passive wise it would affect PvE but not PvP as much. And again hit stam harder than Magicka.

Just buff some of the fighters guild abilities to hit vamps harder to naturally balance things out, possibly some mages guild skills too to give Magicka options to fight back.

Notice: NO BUFFS TO DAWNBREAKER OR EXPLOIT ON CAMO HUNTER. just to further state this as people keep posting the same things regarding these. WE KNOW

ok, and tweak the tree to be more balanced wrt. vamp/ww

Tan9oSuccka

They need to revert the damage of the fighters guild line and reinstate the fire damage penalty as it was.

I’m sick of seeing every yolo swag build running around with mist form etc without any meaningful penalties.

Osteos

Lore:Dawnbreaker
The UESPWiki – Your source for The Elder Scrolls since 1995
< Lore: Artifacts: D
Semi Protection
Dawnbreaker is a Daedric artifact created by the Daedric Prince Meridia. It was forged "in a holy light that breaks upon" the Prince's foes. In appearance it is an ebony longsword, with a distinctive cross-guard that emanates light. It was created with the intention of "burning away corruption and false life".[1] As such, it is particularly effective against Meridia's "foes": this primarily applies to the undead, although its powers can also be used on Daedra and werewolves. Dawnbreaker is known to deal magical or fire damage to those it strikes, along with additional damage to the Prince's foes, sometimes knocking them to the ground. When an undead creature is killed by the weapon, there is a chance that it will cause a fiery explosion, burning all other undead in its radius and causing them to flee. This explosion can prove dangerous if the wielder is also undead, such as a vampire. Those who possess Dawnbreaker are sometimes known to do more damage with mundane weapons.

I do not like the changes they made from this to the current Dawnbreaker in eso. IMO the current damage should apply to undead and daedra and should be halved for normal people.

LadyNalcarya

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

As if dawnbreaker isnt strong enough already.

You may have noticed that I never made mention of Dawnbreaker because it is powerful as it is and does not need buffing. I'm trying for balance, not OP or broken.

Yeah, but vampirism/lycantropy wouldnt even be viable if you would get hit for absurdly high amounts of damage. Its ONLY viable because fire debuff is kinda worth the 10% regen. And 10% regen isnt even a big deal, its more of a minmaxing thing.
My point is, your roleplay should not render one of game's features useless. You already have ways to do more damage to undead and werewolves (dawnbreaker, prismatic glyph, fire/poison), so you can just use them.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

As if dawnbreaker isnt strong enough already.

You may have noticed that I never made mention of Dawnbreaker because it is powerful as it is and does not need buffing. I'm trying for balance, not OP or broken.

Yeah, but vampirism/lycantropy wouldnt even be viable if you would get hit for absurdly high amounts of damage. Its ONLY viable because fire debuff is kinda worth the 10% regen. And 10% regen isnt even a big deal, its more of a minmaxing thing.
My point is, your roleplay should not render one of game's features useless. You already have ways to do more damage to undead and werewolves (dawnbreaker, prismatic glyph, fire/poison), so you can just use them.

My role play you say? Because I want to have a viable build to PvP on with the name of a vampire hunter it's considered role play.

Enlightenment time: Vampire hunters exist in every Elder Scrolls game where vampires can be prominent, including ESO. They were able to be made in this game to both PvE and PvP with until changes were made which overall buffed stam DPS for PvE content (which is not what is being complained about as it brought a little bit more build and class diversity to trials).

You say that everyone should just use Dawnbreaker, Prismatic enchants and fire. We have already established how ineffective fire is (L2Read) and if we're talking glyphs then what about cool down of glyphs? Not efficient or effective enough when even Tanks are running vampire.

That leaves Dawnbreaker. There is your build diversity. 1 single solitary skill. Then again it doesn't surprise me that build diversity isn't high on your priorities. More build diversity requires a bit more thought on making builds, not just log in to a streamer or a YT'er to be told what's BiS.

I decided to ask for more build diversity and buffs to skills in order to bring us close to balance. When ZOS run the figures and realise that nearly EVERYONE is a vamp, how hard is the nerf hammer going to fall? Be totally honest about that. It will happen, especially when you have streamers and YT'ers basically laughing about the so called penalties for being vampire on every build video.
How long do you have before it does? Next main combat balance patch? 1 after?

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

idk wrote: »

It really seems some think it should be extremely easy to kill a vamp rather than just easier. Being easier to kill seems to not be enough for some.

No, most people seem to think that the penalties should balance the upside and be a consideration. Evidently it's not or there would not be so many Vampires in the player base.

Not asking for easy kills, asking for balance and counterplay. Buff the weaker stuff before they nerf the strongest performing. Having nearly everyone as a vampire shows just how unbalanced it is. The player base does not flock to on par things.

Nemesis7884

yes to a dawnguard dlc including the skyrim dawnguard armor - best looking armor

Inhuman003

I want to walk in with a CrossBow and be like a Bad*** Hunting down those bloodsuckers and fur balls.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

yes to a dawnguard dlc including the skyrim dawnguard armor - best looking armor

If that's how they choose to implement it again, then fine. New skill lines equals more diversity and counterplay.

idk

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

idk wrote: »

It really seems some think it should be extremely easy to kill a vamp rather than just easier. Being easier to kill seems to not be enough for some.

No, most people seem to think that the penalties should balance the upside and be a consideration. Evidently it's not or there would not be so many Vampires in the player base.

Not asking for easy kills, asking for balance and counterplay. Buff the weaker stuff before they nerf the strongest performing. Having nearly everyone as a vampire shows just how unbalanced it is. The player base does not flock to on par things.

Besides assumptions, the term "balance" seems to be use in place of making the mills easier.

Seriously. All this thread is full of is generalizing comments and assumptions. Havs a hard time killing a vamp then it must not be balanced. I think there are to many vamps so it must not have much of a down side.

That's what this thread says.

Loves_guars

Ha! While I'm not a pvper now, I remember playing pvp at launch. That moment when a vampire appears and someone on your faction starts yelling "VAMPIIIIIRE!!!" Then you start shooting silver bolts thinking you are Van Helsing but also running away like a little girl. Of course vampires were insanely op back then, which made it fun.

EPIC.

Yes I remember wanting to be a vampire hunter so much! Silver bolts so cool.

I don't know if I'd ever come back to pvp but damn it was a nice idea, yes you have my vote.

LadyNalcarya

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

As if dawnbreaker isnt strong enough already.

You may have noticed that I never made mention of Dawnbreaker because it is powerful as it is and does not need buffing. I'm trying for balance, not OP or broken.

Yeah, but vampirism/lycantropy wouldnt even be viable if you would get hit for absurdly high amounts of damage. Its ONLY viable because fire debuff is kinda worth the 10% regen. And 10% regen isnt even a big deal, its more of a minmaxing thing.
My point is, your roleplay should not render one of game's features useless. You already have ways to do more damage to undead and werewolves (dawnbreaker, prismatic glyph, fire/poison), so you can just use them.

My role play you say? Because I want to have a viable build to PvP on with the name of a vampire hunter it's considered role play.

Enlightenment time: Vampire hunters exist in every Elder Scrolls game where vampires can be prominent, including ESO. They were able to be made in this game to both PvE and PvP with until changes were made which overall buffed stam DPS for PvE content (which is not what is being complained about as it brought a little bit more build and class diversity to trials).

You say that everyone should just use Dawnbreaker, Prismatic enchants and fire. We have already established how ineffective fire is (L2Read) and if we're talking glyphs then what about cool down of glyphs? Not efficient or effective enough when even Tanks are running vampire.

That leaves Dawnbreaker. There is your build diversity. 1 single solitary skill. Then again it doesn't surprise me that build diversity isn't high on your priorities. More build diversity requires a bit more thought on making builds, not just log in to a streamer or a YT'er to be told what's BiS.

I decided to ask for more build diversity and buffs to skills in order to bring us close to balance. When ZOS run the figures and realise that nearly EVERYONE is a vamp, how hard is the nerf hammer going to fall? Be totally honest about that. It will happen, especially when you have streamers and YT'ers basically laughing about the so called penalties for being vampire on every build video.
How long do you have before it does? Next main combat balance patch? 1 after?

1)If we're talking about lore, how about making vamps resistant to regular weapons and whatnot? And vampire hunters do not possess any superhuman powers in TES lore... Dawnguard and Vigilants of Stendar are just normal people, and killing undead is actually quite challenging. Even the lore version of Dawnbreaker is not available for anyone except Meridia's champion.
Unlike daedra, aedra rarely intervene in Nirn's affairs, so its not like any hunter would be blessed by them.

2)Fire debuff IS a disadvantage. Small debuff is still a debuff nonetheless. Good builds can live with it, but players are still getting rekt by fire sieges and destros.

3)The only thing I kinda agree with is that it is annoying that vampirism is so widespread. But... After Morrowind nerfs, sustain is much more difficult, so its understandable if people dont want to lose some extra regen.

4)Prismatic enchant isnt super op or anything but it actually makes a difference.

5)Vamp skills are even more useless than fighters guild abilities. Yes, silver bolts arent super awesome in pvp, but so is vamp drain, or that another version of mist etc. And unlike dawnbreaker, vamp ulti is not super popular.
ESO has a ton of useless skills, but it has nothing to do with vampires in particular.

6)Players are much less squishy than they used to be, vampires or not. Now we have cps, better gear, a lot of build guides etc.
I'm personally not a fan of "everyone is a tank" meta but being able to instagib someone is not a good choice design-wise. Just like the old vamp ult.

Bax

Was this really a thing? And they removed it? The guy who decided to remove it should be fired. Counter mechanics are super fun in PvP. It allows niche builds which usually sucks, but when the proper situation comes, they rock hard. I'm all for to add vampire counter skills, warewolf counter skills but also human counter skills. It could be huge fun imho. Maybe there could be whole new human skill tree for this and vampire/warewolf trees could be adjusted to have some anti-human elements.

I really love this idea.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Bax wrote: »

Was this really a thing? And they removed it? The guy who decided to remove it should be fired. Counter mechanics are super fun in PvP. It allows niche builds which usually sucks, but when the proper situation comes, they rock hard. I'm all for to add vampire counter skills, warewolf counter skills but also human counter skills. It could be huge fun imho. Maybe there could be whole new human skill tree for this and vampire/warewolf trees could be adjusted to have some anti-human elements.

I really love this idea.

It was a thing and made PvP all the more flavourful because of it. Vamps were strong and the fight was good, sometimes they'd use class abilities to stun or immobilize then in to bat swarm and wreck you, or not depending on the Vamp. AoE cap removal brings bat swarm back to a good place and all we need is the counterplay for the battle to restart.

Love the idea to make them counters to each other as it would make for an epic fight.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

idk wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

idk wrote: »

It really seems some think it should be extremely easy to kill a vamp rather than just easier. Being easier to kill seems to not be enough for some.

No, most people seem to think that the penalties should balance the upside and be a consideration. Evidently it's not or there would not be so many Vampires in the player base.

Not asking for easy kills, asking for balance and counterplay. Buff the weaker stuff before they nerf the strongest performing. Having nearly everyone as a vampire shows just how unbalanced it is. The player base does not flock to on par things.

Besides assumptions, the term "balance" seems to be use in place of making the mills easier.

Seriously. All this thread is full of is generalizing comments and assumptions. Havs a hard time killing a vamp then it must not be balanced. I think there are to many vamps so it must not have much of a down side.

That's what this thread says.

Oh really? Assumptions? Am I assuming that Vampires are literally EVERYWHERE in PvE and PvP? Now, if vampires were balanced with the game in general do you honestly think they would be so widespread? That PvE tanks would be using it despite all of the fire mechanics in the game?

Where is the assumption in this? You want hard facts go to an area full of players and go first person. All you'll see is vamps or skins which cover it.

In PvP, if skins were disabled... how many vamps would you see? If ZOS released the figures per campaign with % of vampires against % non vamps for EVERY server, would you expect it to not show vamps are at a much higher percentage than humans or werewolves?

If you honestly think vampire is balanced, take off the blood tinted glasses and look again.

misfitmanic

I definitely miss the way the FG skills used to work, dealing extra damage to undead. I deliberately refused any curses and played a monster hunter. When the skills were changed, I became a vamp, cause why not?

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

misfitmanic wrote: »

I definitely miss the way the FG skills used to work, dealing extra damage to undead. I deliberately refused any curses and played a monster hunter. When the skills were changed, I became a vamp, cause why not?

This. So much this.

dodgehopper_ESO

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

You lost all cred right there...

One of the biggest reasons why Destro Ult/Proxy/Vicious Death is so effective in Cyrodiil is because of all the Vampires running around...

Just think about it...

Eye of Flame is already very strong; what happens when you add a 25% vulnerability to fire.

If the Destro ultimate was a deterrent then why are there SO MANY vamps.

Additionally your one method of counterplay involves running a single specific weapon and using its ultimate.

Not to mention running proximity detonation and VD. so to be efficient at removing Vampires you essentially have to be a bomb blade? Tell me, why isn't every Emperor a bomb blade then if it is so effective against vampires?

Oh yeah, because CP's and mist form. Tell me again how effective fire is.

You are shifting goal posts; you initially said that Fire Damage didn't work on Vampires...

This is 100% wrong as Vampires facing Eye of Flame and Magicka Dragonknights will agree with...

And Vampiric weaknesses do deter some from going Vamp; I personally know people who won't go Vamp because of how strong Dawnbreaker is against them...


As for all the Vamps in Cyrodiil, this has already been correctly addressed by others earlier in the thread...

Classes that lack mobility, in particular, are very dependent on it...

On my Magicka Templar, the difference between not having Vamp and having Vamp is night and day as pertains to mobility and my ability to escape a bad situation...

Without Vamp, I couldn't get away from a 2 legged dog...

It is sick and wrong that the anti-vampire class happens to operate the best as a Vampire.

Goshua

Ignores biggest counter that everyone has access to, justifies not mentioning it because it doesn't need a buff..yawhat?

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Goshua wrote: »

Ignores biggest counter that everyone has access to, justifies not mentioning it because it doesn't need a buff..yawhat?

So we're obviously mentioning Dawnbreaker again *rolls eyes*. This ability is already strong and does not need buffing so the focus of this is to buff other skills, such as silver bolts and its morphs to fulfil what it was intended to do. Hunt monsters. Vampires and werewolves, although the latter are pretty rare.

We already made mention 3 times that Dawnbreaker is not in need of a buff, and is an ultimate. Unless you have some magical skill, or a certain engine you get banned for, an ultimate is not always available (as it shouldn't be able to be spammed).
Therefore it does not need discussing in a thread where we are talking about buffing skills. Is that now more clear?

Additionally we are trying to add more build diversity. Does "everyone run the same ultimate" sound like build diversity to you?

Goshua

"This would bring a small amount more balance to the game as currently there is no counterplay to vampires."

my point : If vampires are ruining your day, use dawn breaker, its a risky enough because its commonly used.
Besides, the last thing this game needs is more CC, so perhaps a damage increase if sensible would make sense.

I will say that its mostly stealth speed that appeals to me

- I think undeath could do with adjusting.

- I don't see anything that can't be dealt with using some thought as far as mist form goes.