Can We PLEASE Be Honest?

Ch4mpTW

LordSemaj wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

radiostar wrote: »

The taunt should have been a separate passive unlock.

Why is it that a destruction staff can apply a taunt de-buff anyway? The entire concept of tanking with an ice staff just seems so... So... Bizarre. Why couldn’t it just be a form of supplying elemental damage, just like inferno and lightning staves? How do you as a game developer sit there, and decide to do something like that? It’s just weird.

Stam DK: "God I love tanking with sword and shield!
Zenimax: "We're happy you like it!"
Mag Sorc: "Why do I have use fracking Undaunted skills?!"
Zenimax: "Um...."
Mag Sorc: "I want to tank with MAGIC, damnit!"

Patch 2.7.0 - Players may now tank with magic.

A MagSorc tank... How do you even...? ?_?

Aisle9

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

LordSemaj wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

radiostar wrote: »

The taunt should have been a separate passive unlock.

Why is it that a destruction staff can apply a taunt de-buff anyway? The entire concept of tanking with an ice staff just seems so... So... Bizarre. Why couldn’t it just be a form of supplying elemental damage, just like inferno and lightning staves? How do you as a game developer sit there, and decide to do something like that? It’s just weird.

Stam DK: "God I love tanking with sword and shield!
Zenimax: "We're happy you like it!"
Mag Sorc: "Why do I have use fracking Undaunted skills?!"
Zenimax: "Um...."
Mag Sorc: "I want to tank with MAGIC, damnit!"

Patch 2.7.0 - Players may now tank with magic.

A MagSorc tank... How do you even...? ?_?

Hardened ward, matriarch, lightning form..

I could go on

Ozstryker

I get the concept... generally my back bar is buffs/ shields etc. so I see how ice staff could theoretically be effective! My main issue is that it's too slow to wind up a heavy attack, when inner-fire, chains or root'n chase/charge are as effective.... but.. having said that, it is a "free" taunt, so it's a trade off.! I don't perma-block, so I don't really need the magic block cost..
So yeah, for me at least not enough to build around!
Let's say that a taunt was added to destructive touch as a morph, or... controversialy, as a morph of impulse that taunts up to 3 enemies?!....... Dunno, just spit-ballin, fact is though there is no good reason to use ice staff while tanking atm.. which is a shame (especially on warden tank) cos the potential is there!

code65536

You want me to be honest? I'll be honest: Every time I see a thread with a vague, non-specific title, I facepalm. Doubly so when certain usernames are listed as the thread's creator.

Perhaps people can stop acting like an owner of a trashy clickbait site, and stop polluting the forum with such attention-seeking eyesores?

As for the topic at hand: It's fine as it is. Ice staves are useful for tanking, and it's not like people are coming up with great ideas on how to make ice a uniquely compelling offensive element (rather than a redressed fire). The only change that I would advocate is renaming the skill line from "destruction staff" to a more neutral (and accurate) "elemental staff"... which, BTW, would make for a more to-the-point thread title: "Rename 'destruction staff' to 'elemental staff'". Imagine that, a thread title that's actually apropos.

LordSemaj

code65536 wrote: »

As for the topic at hand: It's fine as it is. Ice staves are useful for tanking, and it's not like people are coming up with great ideas on how to make ice a uniquely compelling offensive element (rather than a redressed fire).

The general RPG trope is that Ice is a crit-based damage type that especially deals more damage to chilled or frozen targets. So while Fire/Lightning are direct damage and damage over time based, Ice would be like daggers and crit-based with a perhaps even the chill debuff increasing Ice damage done to the target. Ice is portrayed this way in RPGs because it's the most physical of the elements, summoning shards of ice that can be likened to daggers penetrating the target rather than the states of energy that are flame or electricity.

NyassaV

I do vet dungeons with it sometimes (not trials). In PvP it has a few uses but not many

Chaos2088

(in my view, don't shout at me)

Ice staffs were not being used at all before the change....so they thought they would give it an option/change so this would get people using them, plus fall in line with the warden tank skill line...ok yeah I get that logic...but...

People were not using it before, due to a class not having any ice damage passives. Lightning had Sorcs, Flame had DK's, Ice had no one...this is why people were not using it as they was no big advantage of slotting one, where the other two were simply out performing and still are.

Then came the warden....great fantastic, as soon as I saw that the ice mage was geared up more towards a tank, my heart sank...there is still some viable options to make a Ice damage warden...but you would have to rely on a full functioning Ice damage staff with some changes more geared to damage than tanking to keep up with the others in end game.

Turn the Ice staff into a fully functioning viable option for end game, I don't know how or what it will take to do that. I agree with others that you can't simply copy the other two destro staffs, Ice has got to be different.

I am not saying it is completely dead at the moment, but I do agree with the op, where are the Ice mages??

Yes it is great that you can tank with magicka instead of stam, totally with that 100%, but maybe something else should of been put in its place instead of a destro staff rework.

Ch4mpTW

code65536 wrote: »

You want me to be honest? I'll be honest: Every time I see a thread with a vague, non-specific title, I facepalm. Doubly so when certain usernames are listed as the thread's creator.

Perhaps people can stop acting like an owner of a trashy clickbait site, and stop polluting the forum with such attention-seeking eyesores?

As for the topic at hand: It's fine as it is. Ice staves are useful for tanking, and it's not like people are coming up with great ideas on how to make ice a uniquely compelling offensive element (rather than a redressed fire). The only change that I would advocate is renaming the skill line from "destruction staff" to a more neutral (and accurate) "elemental staff"... which, BTW, would make for a more to-the-point thread title: "Rename 'destruction staff' to 'elemental staff'". Imagine that, a thread title that's actually apropos.

How are ice staves useful for tanking when ice staves (or destructive staves as a whole) have absolutely no means of providing block cost reduction and or damage mitigation? Correct me if I’m mistaken, but aren’t those 2 things paramount in effective tanking? Hence why the sturdy trait is so beneficial to tanks? I mean, I could go on and on as to how ice staves truly aren’t okay for neither damage-dealing or tanking... But, I have a feeling that you know as well as I do that it isn’t needed for me to go into detail.

I mean...

Just think about what you’re defending. And it’s not that I’m against having people with a different opinion than my own, but come on now. Tanking with a staff-based weapon, as compared to say a SHIELD and sword? And even then, the staff passives having absolutely nothing to provide benefits for tanking? Except for taunting. And even then that is questionable. Lol.

Blkadr

OK I'm being honest here. My Templar tank can take on anything. She's never been exposed to a trial because she has issues, but she does great in vet dungeons. Every time I hear about the newest buffs or whatever she ignores it. You know why? Because she's perfect how she is. And she loves her armor.

LordSemaj

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

How are ice staves useful for tanking when ice staves (or destructive staves as a whole) have absolutely no means of providing block cost reduction and or damage mitigation? Correct me if I’m mistaken, but aren’t those 2 things paramount in effective tanking?

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Destruction+Staff+Skills

- While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking cost Magicka instead of Stamina
- Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%

Ch4mpTW

Blkadr wrote: »

OK I'm being honest here. My Templar tank can take on anything. She's never been exposed to a trial because she has issues, but she does great in vet dungeons. Every time I hear about the newest buffs or whatever she ignores it. You know why? Because she's perfect how she is. And she loves her armor.

That’s all well and good, but... How can you make the comment of how something can take-on anything, even though you have yet to be placed in situations where said claims may come into fruition? Expecting a character to perform well in a given situation versus actually doing so are 2 total opposites (as I’m certain you already know). I mean... You just said that whenever you hear about the newest buffs, you ignore them. As your character is “perfect” the way that they are. While yes, that sounds quite nice. That logically makes no sense.

For example, the average player can’t tank the Mantikoras in VeSO. To skilled players and those who have experience with tanking, it may seem indeed like a joke. But the truth of the matter is that I’m serious. And not even to the extremes of the Mantikoras, but even something like axes in VAA. Don’t believe me? Go and do a typical PUG of VAA, and see for yourself how many times a tank will drop aggro of an axe and or die. Resulting in a group wipe, due to axes slaughtering people. Mind you, that is just the base-game trials. That’s just the foreplay. Forget VMoL, VHoF, and VAS. Matter of a fact, I’ve seen numerous groups that can’t even handle NHoF and NAS. Why? Because the tanks couldn’t properly do their jobs. It’s 1 thing to say that you can withstand something, and then have so deal with something like Rakkat wailing on you. Then perceptions change. Then reality sets in, and you begin to understand the gravity of things.

Runschei

I have seen and experienced one warden tank using frost staff and doing a really good job. I did vFG 2 HM and vCoH HM no death and speedrun without even planning to do those. He was amazing. Is the only one I have encountered.

Iccotak

Honestly the whole class and magic system is a tricky discussion.
On one end you don't want everyone to have access to everything because they will try to create the build of all builds.
On the other end people want a return to classic elder scrolls character creation

Kikke

most end game trial tanks are currently using a staff on backbar? and why would they not?

my vet dungeon tank build brings a lightning staff for high offbalance for my grp. also I bring Elemental drain when I run without healer.

Trials: I use staff as a OT EVERY SINGEL RUN! why? becaus it allows me too help my grp more than sitting there with 2x sword and board.

What most people do wrong tho is they replace the sword and board entirely with a frost staff, and that wont work.. And from the looks of it, never was intended too replace sword and board, but give an option for backbar.

Aisle9

kikkehs wrote: »

most end game trial tanks are currently using a staff on backbar? and why would they not?

my vet dungeon tank build brings a lightning staff for high offbalance for my grp. also I bring Elemental drain when I run without healer.

Trials: I use staff as a OT EVERY SINGEL RUN! why? becaus it allows me too help my grp more than sitting there with 2x sword and board.

What most people do wrong tho is they replace the sword and board entirely with a frost staff, and that wont work.. And from the looks of it, never was intended too replace sword and board, but give an option for backbar.

I didn't get the memo, it seems. Neither did my OT.

Oh well.

RavenSworn

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

What is REALLY going on with ice staves? I mean seriously. What is really going on here. Who tf is really tanking content with an ice staff? And by that question, I don’t mean a public dungeon or dungeon on normal difficulty. I mean, people going into veteran dungeons and trials and handling their business with an ice staff as a tank. Where are these people at, because I’m truly curious.

We’ve had this bum-ass change regarding ice staves for a while now, and we are at the edge of Update 17 going live. But yet and still, ice staves appear to be still extremely suboptimal. Both in damage dealing and in tanking. WTF is going on here? This is what I mean by the combat devs seemingly buff, nerf, and “fix” the most random and obscure things regarding “balance”. We’ve been telling you devs that ice staves need a major upgrade for a VERY long time now, and ole’ @ZOS_Wrobel still doesn’t have any improvements to show? Really? And it’s been how many months?

Mind you, if there are some folks out there who are doing some amazing tanking or DPS with ice staves? Please speak up, and or shout some people out. If you’ve done VMoL, VHoF, or VAS with these individuals? Please speak up. Hell, not even the DLC-oriented trials. If you’ve done VSO with a solid tank of DPS using an ice staff, please let me know. Because I am truly at a loss for words regarding this situation. Tf is going on here?

hey champ, how ya doing? well, ive been tanking vet dungeons with frost staff as a back bar, its different, its interesting and its great to have two different proper tanking weapons. (two handers need some love in the tanking department but thats another story)

With that being said, i do see it as a problem that magicka builds are funneled to either one of the staves, its not natural. but do remember that most of the class abilities use magicka so that might be the reason too. But im waiting on a new weapon, one that is based on magicka and plays out differently than the other weapons, basically one that fills the 'magicka melee' concept.

Cloudless

Runschei wrote: »

I have seen and experienced one warden tank using frost staff and doing a really good job. I did vFG 2 HM and vCoH HM no death and speedrun without even planning to do those. He was amazing. Is the only one I have encountered.

Same here. Ran vet Direfrost Keep HM with a Warden tank using a frost staff on both bars, and he was amazing. Did a better job than most cookie-cutter DK tanks I've ran with.

code65536

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

How are ice staves useful for tanking when ice staves (or destructive staves as a whole) have absolutely no means of providing block cost reduction and or damage mitigation?

ROTFL! Go read the elemental destruction staff passives. Specifically, Ancient Knowledge.

Also, I never heavy-attack-to-taunt. If I need to taunt from my staff bar, I use the Undaunted taunt. The most important thing about the staff is Crushing Shock. If you don't have Crushing Shock on your back bar in vHoF as either MT or OT, you're doing it wrong. If you don't have Crushing Shock in vAS as OT, you're doing it wrong. If you don't have Crushing Shock in the new Dragon Bones dungeons, you're doing it wrong.

Merlin13KAGL

I, too, have a magDK that backbars Ice and has never had issue clearing any four man content.

It's a way to regain magicka between pulls and during downtime, you can also continue to block with your alternate stat pool simply by switching, allowing the other bar to fill back up.

I don't expect, in its current state, you'll find anyone double barring it or using it in vTrials. S&B, at least on the main bar, is simply too good. And in situations where you have to permablock, you don't have the luxury of waiting two seconds for taunt to fire off.

It's not as useful as it could be (and maybe it shouldn't be, or S&B would lose value), but in skilled hands, it's not as useless as some would assume.

The problem with destro, and elemental in general is that there are major bonuses to certain types that make them stand out, with little to no downsides. There is also far from equal representation of all elements in this fire intensive game.

Aisle9

Cloudless wrote: »

Runschei wrote: »

I have seen and experienced one warden tank using frost staff and doing a really good job. I did vFG 2 HM and vCoH HM no death and speedrun without even planning to do those. He was amazing. Is the only one I have encountered.

Same here. Ran vet Direfrost Keep HM with a Warden tank using a frost staff on both bars, and he was amazing. Did a better job than most cookie-cutter DK tanks I've ran with.

A player with situational awareness and experience playing the game can tank effectively vet dungeons in medium with a bow.

A player convinced the build alone magically gives the ability to play the game skillfully will always do poorly.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Ch4mpTW has a point.

The Ice Staff is lackluster compared to S&B. It has it's uses, it's nice to see variety, but, IMO, adapting a weapon intended for dps to a tank weapon it's not going to cut it, I'd rather have a dedicated weapon skill for magicka tanks.

code65536 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

How are ice staves useful for tanking when ice staves (or destructive staves as a whole) have absolutely no means of providing block cost reduction and or damage mitigation?

ROTFL! Go read the elemental destruction staff passives. Specifically, Ancient Knowledge.

Also, I never heavy-attack-to-taunt. If I need to taunt from my staff bar, I use the Undaunted taunt. The most important thing about the staff is Crushing Shock. If you don't have Crushing Shock on your back bar in vHoF as either MT or OT, you're doing it wrong. If you don't have Crushing Shock in vAS as OT, you're doing it wrong. If you don't have Crushing Shock in the new Dragon Bones dungeons, you're doing it wrong.

Why, what do you need a ranged interrupt for ? Honestly asking, I don't get to go to vAS that much and I haven't played the new ones in PTS yet.

Vermintide

Ice wall seems pretty useful if you're one of those annoying Benny Hill tree-circling kiter types too.

AzraelKrieg

Aisle9 wrote: »

Why, what do you need a ranged interrupt for ? Honestly asking, I don't get to go to vAS that much and I haven't played the new ones in PTS yet.

One of the bosses in Asylum Sanctorium needs to be interrupted as he has an AOE knockback and spews poison balls at people in the group.

code65536

Aisle9 wrote: »

Why, what do you need a ranged interrupt for ? Honestly asking, I don't get to go to vAS that much and I haven't played the new ones in PTS yet.

Arquebuses, boss 1, and boss 2 in vHoF. Llothis in vAS +1 and +2. The Menagerie boss and HM version of the final boss in Fang Lair really, really benefit from ranged interrupts.

The thing is, the back bar on a tank is typically their utility bar. Main bar is 1h&s, sure, but back bar is usually buffs and utility skills and you don't spend much time there. So it doesn't really matter all that much what kind of weapon you have on the back bar. Ice staves provide the same block cost and mit as 1h&s and allows you more variety of utility than what you can get from having the same weapon on two bars.

It allows me to have a ranged interrupt, and since I use an Asylum ice staff, it also lets me apply status effects to a target. It lets me apply ele drain if I'm in a group finder pug where the healer doesn't do their job and apply ele. It even allows me to have a weapon-skill ground dot (because of the funky--and I would say broken--way enchantment procs work, a back-bar elemental blockade can proc your front-bar enchantment when you're on the front, which helps maximize your front-bar enchantment uptime).

That's a lot more utility than what you can get from having a second 1h&s bar--if you need 1h&s passives you can just get on your main bar (that you're on most of the time anyways).

GrumpyDuckling

Want to get even more annoyed? VMA Ice Staff is a joke because it still has the same enchantment as fire and lightning.

Bryong9ub17_ESO

I have a Magicka Frost Warden tank that is incredibly fun to play. Granted I would never take him into trials, but I have no problems doing dungeons with him.

Lynx7386

So here's my opinion on why frost staves were made into a tanking weapon:

1. Ice makes sense as a defensive element. Out of the 3 staff elements available (fire, lightning, or ice), which one makes the most sense for creating shields, hindering/debuffing opponents (both movement speed and the damage they deal), and reinforcing your own defenses/armor? Ice. Hands down it is, thematically and lore-wise, the best element for tanking.

2. People wanted a magicka tanking option. The developers only had two choices here: either take an existing magicka weapon and make it into a tanking weapon as best they could, or create an entirely new weapon type. The former is what they went with, most likely because developing an entirely new weapon line (like an alteration staff or some kind of 1h magicka weapon) would have taken far more resources, time, and money. It was a business decision that made sense to turn frost staves (which pretty much nobody was using effectively anyways) into the tanking option. I think it was a smart decision.

3. As mentioned, NOBODY (more or less) was using a frost staff to begin with, and those who were using them were not doing so effectively. Out of the 3 destruction staff types, fire was the prime choice for single target and lightning for aoe. Frost staves simply did not fit into the dps equation, they were subpar at both single target and aoe dps roles, and there was no changing that without making lightning or fire (both more popular elements anyways) into the no-longer-used weapon.


Now as for their effectiveness, I will agree that frost staves are still not in a spot where they can be effectively used in high end content as a primary tanking weapon. However, they ARE an ideal off-bar weapon for traditional 1h/sh tanks, especially wardens which they synergize very well with. Additionally they have more uses in pvp now than they did as a non-tanking weapon.

Warden tanks, easily the best hybrid setup in the game, often utilize frost staves as a back bar weapon for a few reasons:
-Resource management: When stamina runs low on 1h/sh, you have magicka to block with, allowing stamina to recover. This is the primary method of resource management for most warden tanks, and is what allows them to keep on par with dragonknight tanks who get massive resource return from ultimates.
-Area control: Wardens can combine ice shards/polar wind with elemental blockade and subterranean assault to slow, immobilize, and debuff large group pulls very quickly and easily.

Now, obviously nobody is going to be taunting in the middle of combat with heavy staff attacks. The heavy frost staff attack is best used when pulling a group of enemies to taunt the most dangerous of them before using the area control abilities mentioned above to hinder and debuff the others. That initial heavy attack will give you a free taunt on the big guy, as well as a damage shield to help soak up hits while you cast the area spells before swapping back to 1h/shield.

In PvP, the taunt actually helps warden tanks with burst damage (which they otherwise lack) via the tremorscale monster set. A frost staff heavy attack utilizing tremorscale alongside other heavy attack sets like knight slayer is capable of putting out a huge amount of burst damage. Tremorscale procs on taunts, which the frost staff allows at range for free and combines with the heavy attack procs sets.


Personally, I love the ice staff for my warden, and I'd hate to lose it just because a few players are butthurt about not being able to go cold-mage effectively (even though you couldnt prior to the change and no other change made to frost staves would allow you to). Warden simply fits ice staff tanking and synergizes extremely well with it in both pve and pvp, and if the changes to frost staves were reverted right now you'd have a lot of pissed off warden tanks because of it. No matter what arguments you come up with, frost staves are being used far more now than they were prior to the changes, and metrics have proven that.

That said, frost staff is still in need of improvements for the tanking role. It should definitely count for two item slots towards set bonuses, but IMO that should happen for all two handed weapons. Not being able to utilize a 5-5-2 setup with two handers is a huge disadvantage for many builds in the game that rely on bows, 2h, or staves.


TL;DR: while they still need some improvements to properly fit a tanking role, frost staves are in a much better spot now than they ever were prior to being made tanking weapons. Apologies to those who want to play a frost mage, but it wasnt viable before and it isnt now, you're just going to have to live with that.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

That’s all well and good, but... How can you make the comment of how something can take-on anything, even though you have yet to be placed in situations where said claims may come into fruition?

Just because my car isn't powerful enough to compete in F1 races doesn't mean it's not perfectly fine for my everyday and holiday needs.
Same with frost staff tanks. Just because they're probably not as optimized as heavy armor S&B DK tanks for vMoL doesn't mean they shouldn't exist at all.
Let's face it : tanking is very difficult in very difficult instances (that 0.5% of the game) and plain boring anywhere else. In most dungeons, you only need to actually tank every now and then, else you need to deal damage. Frost staves builds are ideally suited for that type of situation (=99.5% of the instances) and they're very fun to play.
When are people going to free themselves from those "holy trinity" clichees ? The diversity of builds you can create in ESO is one of the game's major assets and frost staff tanking is a great idea in that regard.

anitajoneb17_ESO

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Want to get even more annoyed? VMA Ice Staff is a joke because it still has the same enchantment as fire and lightning.

Valid point.
Since ice staff has special properties, it should have its own dedicated maelstroem enchantment.

Aisle9

code65536 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Why, what do you need a ranged interrupt for ? Honestly asking, I don't get to go to vAS that much and I haven't played the new ones in PTS yet.

Arquebuses, boss 1, and boss 2 in vHoF. Llothis in vAS +1 and +2. The Menagerie boss and HM version of the final boss in Fang Lair really, really benefit from ranged interrupts.

The thing is, the back bar on a tank is typically their utility bar. Main bar is 1h&s, sure, but back bar is usually buffs and utility skills and you don't spend much time there. So it doesn't really matter all that much what kind of weapon you have on the back bar. Ice staves provide the same block cost and mit as 1h&s and allows you more variety of utility than what you can get from having the same weapon on two bars.

It allows me to have a ranged interrupt, and since I use an Asylum ice staff, it also lets me apply status effects to a target. It lets me apply ele drain if I'm in a group finder pug where the healer doesn't do their job and apply ele. It even allows me to have a weapon-skill ground dot (because of the funky--and I would say broken--way enchantment procs work, a back-bar elemental blockade can proc your front-bar enchantment when you're on the front, which helps maximize your front-bar enchantment uptime).

That's a lot more utility than what you can get from having a second 1h&s bar--if you need 1h&s passives you can just get on your main bar (that you're on most of the time anyways).

That looks like the definition of "situational advantage" to me.

I mean, I get your point, and I may agree that what you put in your backbar doesn't really matter, but that's hardly a justification for calling it a "tanking weapon".

But that's just my opinion.

Lynx7386

LordSemaj wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

As for the topic at hand: It's fine as it is. Ice staves are useful for tanking, and it's not like people are coming up with great ideas on how to make ice a uniquely compelling offensive element (rather than a redressed fire).

The general RPG trope is that Ice is a crit-based damage type that especially deals more damage to chilled or frozen targets. So while Fire/Lightning are direct damage and damage over time based, Ice would be like daggers and crit-based with a perhaps even the chill debuff increasing Ice damage done to the target. Ice is portrayed this way in RPGs because it's the most physical of the elements, summoning shards of ice that can be likened to daggers penetrating the target rather than the states of energy that are flame or electricity.

So here's the issue, yes ice could be seen as a crit-damage based element (just as easily as it can be seen as a defensive element), however changing it into a crit based destro staff essentially eliminates it from being useful in pvp. Crit is only effective as a pve element here. Further, you'd either have frost staff surpassing fire/lightning for damage, in which case everyone would be complaining about how useless those two are now (waah, why isnt my fire/shock mage more powerful than stupid frost mages!?) or it would still be lagging behind in damage potential and everyone would still be complaining that their frost mage isnt competetive and viable.

Fire and lightning both had/have very specific roles: Single target damage, and area damage. Both are useful in pvp and pve alike, at all levels of the game. No matter what change was made to frost staves as a damage weapon, they would end up either killing one of those two as a dps option (making whichever one, or both, was inferior the new 'never used' weapon) or you'd end up still having frost staves as a sub-par dps weapon (and nobody would use them, still).

As a tanking weapon, frost staves are seeing more use than they ever did as a dps weapon, and more use than they would have seen had dps changes been made to them. There was simply no way to make them competetive with fire or lightning in regards to damage without causing further issues.

You're right that ice is a more physical element, but I think that's why it fits perfectly for a tanking option. What do tanks do? They soak up damage, they keep enemy attention, they debuff enemies, and they buff allies. What does frost staff now do?
-It soaks up damage by having armor benefits, creating damage shields, and using magicka to block.
-It keeps enemy attention by having a taunt available.
-It debuffs enemies by applying chilled, slowing and applying maim to reduce enemy damage.
Buffing allies is done through warden frost abilities which grant the entire group resolve/ward/protection/healing.

Frost staff is in a better spot now, there's just no arguing it.