ESO is at a crossroads

Recremen

The release of the outfit system has the potential to be a serious boon to aesthetic control and experimentation, a great achievement for the health of the game. Unfortunately, the associated per-use gold cost sabotages the system's true potential. Without a way to permanently unlock the styles, this system loses an important feature that has been a staple of the cosmetic systems since their introduction. We can change mounts, pets, hairstyles, body markings, skins, adornments, hats, costumes, personalities, and dyes with absolutely no associated charge after the up-front cost to get them. For this new system, however, we pay once to get the motif, and then once again every single time we change something in an outfit. We've even regressed, as we're now charged every time we want to change our dyes as well.

Trying to play it off as if we aren't losing existing functionality (dyes) is not going to cut it. It's a completely invented distinction to say that it's different because it's the outfit system. And trying to act like this per-use cost isn't expensive, or isn't a betrayal of expectations, is equally ludicrous. You had the format for cosmetic systems completely laid out for us. We knew what to expect. Instead, you delivered us a system entirely focused on driving a microtransaction. Is that the new normal we need to expect? What next, a microtransaction for doing quests? A microtransaction for hearing voiceover? After all those are really just cosmetic systems that don't affect gameplay. Quests and voiceover don't add anything to your combat stats, so where's the harm, right?

Seriously though, we're tired of this line of reasoning. If cosmetics don't matter, don't monetize them. Oh wait that's like half your revenue, whoops. Maybe they're important after all?? So how about, instead, you deliver a consistent payment model for cosmetic systems instead of trying to pass off these new levels of ***? Do us all a favor and get your act together. This unpredictability is really not endearing.

idk

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

Elsonso

Nice write up. You might as well be talking to the wall, though. :shrug:

Longstride

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

Waffennacht

Longstride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

Why is it bad that people need to own the motif they wanna use before they can use it?

Not requiring the motif would completely remove the point of motifs.

I'm glad they don't make crafting worthless by not needing the motif

Edit: and what microtransactions? There's no need for crowns to be spent

Longstride

No one is arguing that you shouldn't need the motiif. I, certainly, am not. I agree that crafting needs inherent value. In fact, I think it needs a greater value than it currently has.

The OP argument is against the excessive cost in the outfit station itself and the added cost to dyes. We are also paying twice for dyes as they are something we actually have to earn via achievements.

Waffennacht

Longstride wrote: »

No one is arguing that you shouldn't need the motiif. I, certainly, am not. I agree that crafting needs inherent value. In fact, I think it needs a greater value than it currently has.

The OP argument is against the excessive cost in the outfit station itself and the added cost to dyes. We are also paying twice for dyes as they are something we actually have to earn via achievements.

The gold cost? I agree it's a bit high,but that's not a micro transaction

Nihility42

The amount of whining about a trivial gold coast is astounding to me. Literally go farm mats in the time it takes to make all these posts and you'll have enough gold for all your outfits for the next year.

Recremen

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

OP's comment is entirely correct, you're just moving the goalposts.

I never mentioned paying for motifs in gold. You can pay in gold for some of them, sure, but you also pay in gameplay time, or in the cash shop. You always pay, however. It is exactly like costumes, personalities, polymorphs, etc. You can get them by spending the gameplay time, buy them in the cash shop, and for stuff like the Imperial City polymorphs, buy the runeboxes from other players. Not my fault your mind jumps right to gold cost.

Recremen

Waffennacht wrote: »

Longstride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

Why is it bad that people need to own the motif they wanna use before they can use it?

Not requiring the motif would completely remove the point of motifs.

I'm glad they don't make crafting worthless by not needing the motif

Edit: and what microtransactions? There's no need for crowns to be spent

@Waffennacht

No no, owning the motif as a requirement is fine. Indeed, that would fit in perfectly with the up-front cost requirement that all other cosmetic systems have had. The problem is that the system only has a per-use gold cost to drive the outfit change token microtransaction. There's never been any other cosmetic system with this property.

Longstride

Nihility42 wrote: »

The amount of whining about a trivial gold coast is astounding to me. Literally go farm mats in the time it takes to make all these posts and you'll have enough gold for all your outfits for the next year.

We already have ground a) for the motiif themselves or b) for the gold to purchase the motiifs. What's more, we have already ground for the achievements that yielded dyes. FURTHER, dying is currently free of charge on live.

Recremen

Nihility42 wrote: »

The amount of whining about a trivial gold coast is astounding to me. Literally go farm mats in the time it takes to make all these posts and you'll have enough gold for all your outfits for the next year.

Up to 26k+ per outfit change isn't trivial but hey, blaming OP like he's just not playing the game hard enough is totally more productive than engaging the argument.

Solariken

I don't mind the per-use cost at all, I just wish it were in the form of style materials and not gold.

Like gold, style materials also have a cost (variable) and/or time sink to obtain but they make more logical sense. ZOS went full-on lazy mode with this system.

idk

Longstride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

No, Op is talking semantics just as the 95% number is pulled out of thin air. OPs comments were not correct and I was merely pointing out the correct information.

ssewallb14_ESO

Nihility42 wrote: »

The amount of whining about a trivial gold coast is astounding to me. Literally go farm mats in the time it takes to make all these posts and you'll have enough gold for all your outfits for the next year.

You'll have to share your farming spots. A single outfit can cost 28k.

DHale

Cosmetic stuff is never going to be an indication of the health of any game whatsoever.

Recremen

idk wrote: »

Longstride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

No, Op is talking semantics just as the 95% number is pulled out of thin air. OPs comments were not correct and I was merely pointing out the correct information.

@idk My comments were correct, and I already pointed out why. I understand you don't like getting destroyed in these threads but it's your own fault for following me around the forums trying to argue things that are out of your experience level.

Slurg

Please clarify, it sounds like you are saying we will have to pay to dye armor and costumes after the update. I thought dye cost was going to apply to the outfits in the new outfitting system and not to the non-outfit armor and costumes (for ESO+). Which is correct?

Waffennacht

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

The amount of whining about a trivial gold coast is astounding to me. Literally go farm mats in the time it takes to make all these posts and you'll have enough gold for all your outfits for the next year.

You'll have to share your farming spots. A single outfit can cost 28k.

I thought about making a guide:

First 45min - hour (max) do writs on 4 characters (2 max, 2 min)
This will make the need for materials less (split between the high and low) and makes farming far easier.
This will earn you approximately 15k (in as little as 20 min or an hour with farming)

Next 40min - 1 hour
Steal from Auridon Bank - a max stealer will make 1.5k average every 6 min
A min thief will make 800-1.2k gold every 6 min
This will make you 8-10k in 40 minutes on ain character, or 17k on a max

Next 20 min ish
If you are a part of a campaign that your alliance is dominating you can run to: Bruma/Cropsford/Chey
Bruma is fastest, then Cropsford, then Chey - completing their quests can be as short as 15-20 mins and will net you approximately 6-7k gold.

So every single day, with no interactions with players, you can make approximately 40k gold in a few hours.

I've now been doing these and now make x3 the amount of gold I did previously

Chilly-McFreeze

Recremen wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Longstride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

No, Op is talking semantics just as the 95% number is pulled out of thin air. OPs comments were not correct and I was merely pointing out the correct information.

@idk My comments were correct, and I already pointed out why. I understand you don't like getting destroyed in these threads but it's your own fault for following me around the forums trying to argue things that are out of your experience level.

But I'd like to see where the 95% comes from as well. Did you made that up? Is this some kind of hyperbole? Or is there a credible source? And with credible source I don't mean a crystal ball from a fortuneteller.

Recremen

DHale wrote: »

Cosmetic stuff is never going to be an indication of the health of any game whatsoever.

I wasn't saying anything about the health of the game, Hale, the crossroads I'm talking about is in reference to how things are priced in the future. We had one way of doing things, now they're changing it up. It's unpredictable and consumer-unfriendly.

Recremen

Slurg wrote: »

Please clarify, it sounds like you are saying we will have to pay to dye armor and costumes after the update. I thought dye cost was going to apply to the outfits in the new outfitting system and not to the non-outfit armor and costumes (for ESO+). Which is correct?

@Slurg

Dyeing armor outside the context of the outfit system is still free. As I said in the second paragraph, however, it's an invented distinction. You're still dyeing armor with the outfit system. There's no reason to treat them any differently in gameplay nor in our expectations. It would be like if they charged gold to change to cash-shop-exclusive hairstyles versus the ones in the hairstyle megapack. It's a completely arbitrary distinction.

And it's not like people are going to suddenly not want to use the outfit system after we've asked for it for so long. People aren't going to just be sticking to their old armor just so they can keep free dyes.

Recremen

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Longstride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

No, Op is talking semantics just as the 95% number is pulled out of thin air. OPs comments were not correct and I was merely pointing out the correct information.

@idk My comments were correct, and I already pointed out why. I understand you don't like getting destroyed in these threads but it's your own fault for following me around the forums trying to argue things that are out of your experience level.

But I'd like to see where the 95% comes from as well. Did you made that up? Is this some kind of hyperbole? Or is there a credible source? And with credible source I don't mean a crystal ball from a fortuneteller.

@Chilly-McFreeze

I never used the "95%" number that was Longstride. I have no idea where they got the number and take zero responsibility for it.

Bevik

Waffennacht wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

The amount of whining about a trivial gold coast is astounding to me. Literally go farm mats in the time it takes to make all these posts and you'll have enough gold for all your outfits for the next year.

You'll have to share your farming spots. A single outfit can cost 28k.

I thought about making a guide:

First 45min - hour (max) do writs on 4 characters (2 max, 2 min)
This will make the need for materials less (split between the high and low) and makes farming far easier.
This will earn you approximately 15k (in as little as 20 min or an hour with farming)

Next 40min - 1 hour
Steal from Auridon Bank - a max stealer will make 1.5k average every 6 min
A min thief will make 800-1.2k gold every 6 min
This will make you 8-10k in 40 minutes on ain character, or 17k on a max

Next 20 min ish
If you are a part of a campaign that your alliance is dominating you can run to: Bruma/Cropsford/Chey
Bruma is fastest, then Cropsford, then Chey - completing their quests can be as short as 15-20 mins and will net you approximately 6-7k gold.

So every single day, with no interactions with players, you can make approximately 40k gold in a few hours.

I've now been doing these and now make x3 the amount of gold I did previously

We wrote him many times how to make gold fast and easy. He is whining because he wants to change outfits every minute. Which honestly I still don't understand what is the fuss about this as you can preview your creation before paying for it. If he knows the motifs already then just go out and play, farm some gold, invest forum time in game time and be happy with the millions.

A single outfit can cost up to 28k, a very very rare one with multiple combinations of rare motifs so, makes sense.

But since he won't be satisfied with this system doesn't really matter anyone's opinion anyway only his/her.

Recremen

Waffennacht wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

The amount of whining about a trivial gold coast is astounding to me. Literally go farm mats in the time it takes to make all these posts and you'll have enough gold for all your outfits for the next year.

You'll have to share your farming spots. A single outfit can cost 28k.

I thought about making a guide:

First 45min - hour (max) do writs on 4 characters (2 max, 2 min)
This will make the need for materials less (split between the high and low) and makes farming far easier.
This will earn you approximately 15k (in as little as 20 min or an hour with farming)

Next 40min - 1 hour
Steal from Auridon Bank - a max stealer will make 1.5k average every 6 min
A min thief will make 800-1.2k gold every 6 min
This will make you 8-10k in 40 minutes on ain character, or 17k on a max

Next 20 min ish
If you are a part of a campaign that your alliance is dominating you can run to: Bruma/Cropsford/Chey
Bruma is fastest, then Cropsford, then Chey - completing their quests can be as short as 15-20 mins and will net you approximately 6-7k gold.

So every single day, with no interactions with players, you can make approximately 40k gold in a few hours.

I've now been doing these and now make x3 the amount of gold I did previously

@Waffennacht

I don't know about anyone else but I'm doing writs on 13 characters a day, plus some quests/pledges, plus whatever other random things, and then PvP raid night twice a week. It's not like I don't know how to make gold or like I'm not playing the game. On my main I'm Grand Overlord, a former Emperor, I've done vet trial hardmodes, did all the DLC, etc. etc. I have every motif and almost every dye. It would be hard (though admittedly not impossible) to find a player more engaged than me. That's why I'm confident in standing on the merits of my argument. My engagement with the game is beyond repute, so something else is going on here and we should take a look at it.

idk

Recremen wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Longstride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

No, Op is talking semantics just as the 95% number is pulled out of thin air. OPs comments were not correct and I was merely pointing out the correct information.

@idk My comments were correct, and I already pointed out why. I understand you don't like getting destroyed in these threads but it's your own fault for following me around the forums trying to argue things that are out of your experience level.

Destroyed? Lol. Has not happened in this thread by anyone. I've merely pointed out how an aspect actually works in the game vs how it was presented.

It is a fact we can permanently unlock a motif. I merely stated the fact we do not have to buy any of the in game motifs unlike how it was presented in the OP's first paragraph. It's merely a choice to buy the motif, get it yourself or do without.

Cannot destroy a message of facts with blurred lines. If I've commented in one of your threads previously in disagreement with your post it's merely either something open to oppinion or something incorrect as stated.

Waffennacht

Guys, guys, my advice is specifically for @ssewallb14_ESO whom asked for a farming route.

Kinda off topic I know, but it's advice for them

MalakithAlamahdi

Waffennacht wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

The amount of whining about a trivial gold coast is astounding to me. Literally go farm mats in the time it takes to make all these posts and you'll have enough gold for all your outfits for the next year.

You'll have to share your farming spots. A single outfit can cost 28k.

I thought about making a guide:

First 45min - hour (max) do writs on 4 characters (2 max, 2 min)
This will make the need for materials less (split between the high and low) and makes farming far easier.
This will earn you approximately 15k (in as little as 20 min or an hour with farming)

Next 40min - 1 hour
Steal from Auridon Bank - a max stealer will make 1.5k average every 6 min
A min thief will make 800-1.2k gold every 6 min
This will make you 8-10k in 40 minutes on ain character, or 17k on a max

Next 20 min ish
If you are a part of a campaign that your alliance is dominating you can run to: Bruma/Cropsford/Chey
Bruma is fastest, then Cropsford, then Chey - completing their quests can be as short as 15-20 mins and will net you approximately 6-7k gold.

So every single day, with no interactions with players, you can make approximately 40k gold in a few hours.

I've now been doing these and now make x3 the amount of gold I did previously

Sssst Waffen! Now they might nerf the gold you get from there!

xaraan

Eh, Although I agree the gold cost is a bit high, I'm not on board with the OP's exaggerations.

1. We don't lose existing functionality, it's not "technically", it's literal. You can dye crafted armor and crown store costumes for free (if sub) right now, same will be true after.

2. Any player should expect there to be gold sinks in the game.

3. Of course it's core design is to encourage crown store sales - zos has said from the beginning that the crown store will attempt to mostly stay cosmetic, and the outfit system is cosmetic. Not sure why you would expect differently.

4. But, even taking #3 into account, you can still make use of the system with only in game gold.


Personally, I'd like to see the gold cost lowered a little, bring it down on unique styles. You could even have multiple tiers where if you know the entire style, it's a little cheaper than if you just knew the style of the one item piece you wanted to create. But, it should require style material. The market for style mats will be pretty much dead now. We've already seen pricing on overland gear drops go down because everyone can transmute traits. This wasn't a huge deal because it just got rid of the ridiculous priced items, but style stones not being worth it to be sold is eliminating a small market of small transactions for no good reason.

Even with all that, the gold isn't that bad. I'd have paid that much gold to to dye my ugly red weapons. Mostly taking the complaints to a level of "sure, it's a little bit too expensive in some form" smacks of wanting something for nothing (or as virtually nothing).

Slurg

Recremen wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

Please clarify, it sounds like you are saying we will have to pay to dye armor and costumes after the update. I thought dye cost was going to apply to the outfits in the new outfitting system and not to the non-outfit armor and costumes (for ESO+). Which is correct?

@Slurg

Dyeing armor outside the context of the outfit system is still free. As I said in the second paragraph, however, it's an invented distinction. You're still dyeing armor with the outfit system. There's no reason to treat them any differently in gameplay nor in our expectations. It would be like if they charged gold to change to cash-shop-exclusive hairstyles versus the ones in the hairstyle megapack. It's a completely arbitrary distinction.

And it's not like people are going to suddenly not want to use the outfit system after we've asked for it for so long. People aren't going to just be sticking to their old armor just so they can keep free dyes.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn’t get a chance to try this on PTS myself. At least those who continue to use costumes or crafted sets in their preferred style will still not have to pay to change dyes.

I do think it will be confusing and really annoying to have a micro transaction charge for the outfits created through the outfitting system when people are accustomed to just rolling up and changing colors (with dyes they have earned!) at whim.

Recremen

idk wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Longstride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OPs comment is not entirely correct.

Yes, once we have an outfit slot it costs gold to commit an outfit to that slot which can the. Be used ans switched to at will without additional cost unless the player chooses to commit a new outfit to that slot.

However, with the exception of a few select motifs that are crown store exclusives, motifs are available in game for free. Buying them from another player becomes a choice. As such it is not arelevant part of a discussion of gold costs for the system.

So there is really only one aspect that requires a cost of gold for the system.

You are arguing semantics here. Yes we don't HAVE to buy them,but in reality 95% of consumers will buy some motifs to complete their outfits. The point of the OP stands and is quite accurate.

No, Op is talking semantics just as the 95% number is pulled out of thin air. OPs comments were not correct and I was merely pointing out the correct information.

@idk My comments were correct, and I already pointed out why. I understand you don't like getting destroyed in these threads but it's your own fault for following me around the forums trying to argue things that are out of your experience level.

Destroyed? Lol. Has not happened in this thread by anyone.

It is a fact we can permanently unlock a motif. I merely stated the fact we do not have to buy any of the in game motifs unlike how it was presented in the OP's first paragraph. It's merely a choice to buy the motif, get it yourself or do without.

Cannot destroy a message of facts with blurred lines. If I've commented in one of your threads previously in disagreement with your post it's merely either something open to oppinion or something incorrect as stated.

Nah, you don't permanently unlock motifs if there's still a gold cost to switch them around. What you have there is permanently unlocking the opportunity to pay to switch to it. And try reading my first paragraph again. I don't know if it's a language barrier or something but you are taking the idea of paying way too literally and focusing on it way too much. You pay for the motif one way or the other, whether it be grinding it out yourself, buying it from other players, or buying it in the cash shop. You always pay. If you can't wrap your mind around that then try taking a step back. Do some critical thinking.