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Bow, left behind again.

  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    Am I the only one who finds this funny concerning the topic at hand?
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)

    ;)

    The skills don't match the rest of the combat changes they outlined.

    Bow isn't in as bad a place as it has been. But lets not pretend its anywhere near considered good.

    But yeah. I do alright.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.
    Edited by SodanTok on January 31, 2018 7:04PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • Minalan
    Minalan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Death recaps post 3.3:
    —————————
    Legolas Snipe 8K
    XX_LegolAS_XX Snipe 8K
    Legolass Snipe 7K
    LLLegolas Snipe 8K
    The_Real_Legolas Snipe 7K

    You guys are going to be fine without Miats addon.

    That made me chuckle a bit.


    I remember the early days when there actually were players named "Legolas" everywhere running around with a bow. They mysteriously disappeared at some point though.

    Psst, this is how you Snipe, none of that 8k ***: https://youtu.be/R63jwNgGvk4 :p

    I’m assuming full heavy armor, impreg, full impen, sword and shield, 35K+ health, bloodspawn proc - and for some reason he didn’t just hold down block. Isn’t that the current meta out there?

    Edited by Minalan on January 31, 2018 7:19PM
  • QuebraRegra
    QuebraRegra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    How did Vollley and Arrow Spray get overlooked in the changes for ground placed AOE's and spammable AOE's?

    Arrow Spray was already weaker than almost every direct damage AOE. Now it remains dodgeable, while other weapon lines with similar skills ie whirlwind, impulse, cleave are all undodgeable.

    Caltrops, liquid lightning, and blockade become unblockable as well as undodgeable but Volley is ignored?

    Are there some monster Bow builds destroying cyrodil with Volley? Or Arrow Spray? Bombard spam hasn't been a thing in over a year.

    for reals.... no way Volley should have been treated differently. LOL, the old bombard spam... I miss those days ;)
  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.

    Until someone does 1 roll dodge and gap closes you (even with reduced damage)
  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.

    Until someone does 1 roll dodge and gap closes you (even with reduced damage)

    Exactly - reduced damage! - that's called a buff to your defense.
    Too bad you cannot use that in your advantage.
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.

    Until someone does 1 roll dodge and gap closes you (even with reduced damage)

    Exactly - reduced damage! - that's called a buff to your defense.
    Too bad you cannot use that in your advantage.

    And while theyre in your face, you cannot cast snipe as you are snared and they will bash you. You cannot escape as they will gap close you again (they would usually have major expedition too, and other than vigor, you really dont have any heals, unless you play warden.
  • QuebraRegra
    QuebraRegra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    shinikaze wrote: »
    Made additional changes to the API to better restrict the ability for addons to display combat events prior to your character being impacted.
    <- this is a buff for bow.

    One thing i would like is the ability to hold heavy attack back for bow.

    the person who drove that change should be fired immediately, and the change reverted.

    fixed.
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    shinikaze wrote: »
    Made additional changes to the API to better restrict the ability for addons to display combat events prior to your character being impacted.
    <- this is a buff for bow.

    One thing i would like is the ability to hold heavy attack back for bow.

    the person who drove that change should be fired immediately, and the change reverted.

    fixed.

    Angry about miats?
  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
  • ForsakenSin
    ForsakenSin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Faulgor wrote: »
    Just a question to all of the bow players , ( im magica based and used bow for a limited time so my knowledge is limited ) anyway my question is , do you think it would be good to have Arrow Quiver with different effects on it ? ie ice arrow that would slow down enemy , shock arrow causes Concussion , Fire arrow burning and poison arrow dose extra poison over time .

    This would increase the damage and effect of the bow users what are your thoughts ?

    Sounds like enchantments to me?
    Just a question to all of the bow players , ( im magica based and used bow for a limited time so my knowledge is limited ) anyway my question is , do you think it would be good to have Arrow Quiver with different effects on it ? ie ice arrow that would slow down enemy , shock arrow causes Concussion , Fire arrow burning and poison arrow dose extra poison over time .

    This would increase the damage and effect of the bow users what are your thoughts ?

    concussion would be scatter shot, fire arrow isnt that volley or is it endless hail? poison arrow is poison injection...so ye they already exist. And you can optimize the damage each do by different gear/skills (eg. Morag Tong for poison, sheer venom etc...)



    it would not be as enchanting as each shoot would be 100% effect , see i was thinking for example using a Fire Arrow Quiver would make endless hail having AOE fire damage , Shock Quiver for example using it on endless hail would have like tesla electricity running through it and using the Shock Quiver with snipe would pin down the enemy down on the ground like Ozara will pin 2 random players to the floor in a lightning AOE , maybe having a Quiver can also be added as a second item so you guys can run 5/5/2 ?

    Just a though anyway to boost up bow players i do fell like they are under powered in PVE .. however PVP .. snipe snipe snipe lolz
    "By many i am seen as hero...as a savior of the Tamriel i will not stop until every Daedra every evil there is in Tamriel is vanquish by my hands..
    However i do this for my own purpose to gain trust of mortals to worship me and to eliminate my competition i will not bend my knee to lead your army to serve you Molag Bal , i will simply just take it from you.."--- Forsaken Sin( Magica Sorc)



    Arise From Darkness Forsaken SIn
    "You have been a loyal High Elf Magica Sorc
    Conjure of Darkness, Master of Magic
    Killer of Molag Bal and Savior of Ebonheart Pact
    Until Dark Brotherhood killed you...
    but now..NOW its time to Arise From Darkness once again..."

  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
    Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

    Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

    And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

    Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

    Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

    And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

    And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

    Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
    Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

    Edited by Didgerion on February 1, 2018 1:42AM
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
    Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

    Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

    And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

    Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

    Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

    And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

    And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

    Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
    Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

    Powerful Spells didn't exist in Ancient Times so that doesn't do you any favors. When these two knives spin around you they also extend your arms out 9m? Are you also implying that somehow projectiles are more dodgeable than someones swing? I'm fairly certain if you examine your Ancient Times you will find that dodging someones swing was totally doable.

    So distance is the crucial factor? Perhaps you should look more closely at the PTS notes:
    Developer Comment - Block and Dodge Rulesets:
    We’ve updated several abilities so they better adhere to our block and dodge mechanics. The system is set up to be intuitive – attacks on the ground such as fire or Caltrops cannot be blocked or dodged. We also want dodging to be useful during some instances, and blocking to be useful at other times. The ruleset is as follows:
    • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
      • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
      • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
    • Attacks that cannot be blocked or dodged
      • Damage on the ground such as Wall of Elements, Caltrops, or Lightning Splash.
      • Effects that are on or inside a player character, such as Daedric Curse, or Backlash. (Damage over time effects)
    • Attacks that can be dodged, but not blocked
      • Secondary effects that penetrate Block such as the Damage over Time from Sunfire, the surprise attack armor debuff, or the snare from Low Slash snare.
      • Note: Block continues to provide stun immunity, so it will stop a secondary effect like the stun from Stonefist.
    Exceptions to these rules will be stated each ability’s tooltip, such as Fiery Grip which cannot be dodged or reflected.

    In case you missed it:
    1. "
      • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
        • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
        • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
        "


      Certainly 25m on Spear Shards isn't considered ranged is it? If so then Arrow Sprays 20m is definitely MELEE!

      Wardens have a 20m undodgeable AOE that more than doubles the damage of Arrow Spray while also either providing a major debuff or stunning you. And you are worried about Arrow Spray?
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
    Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

    Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

    And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

    Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

    Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

    And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

    And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

    Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
    Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

    Powerful Spells didn't exist in Ancient Times so that doesn't do you any favors. When these two knives spin around you they also extend your arms out 9m? Are you also implying that somehow projectiles are more dodgeable than someones swing? I'm fairly certain if you examine your Ancient Times you will find that dodging someones swing was totally doable.

    So distance is the crucial factor? Perhaps you should look more closely at the PTS notes:
    Developer Comment - Block and Dodge Rulesets:
    We’ve updated several abilities so they better adhere to our block and dodge mechanics. The system is set up to be intuitive – attacks on the ground such as fire or Caltrops cannot be blocked or dodged. We also want dodging to be useful during some instances, and blocking to be useful at other times. The ruleset is as follows:
    • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
      • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
      • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
    • Attacks that cannot be blocked or dodged
      • Damage on the ground such as Wall of Elements, Caltrops, or Lightning Splash.
      • Effects that are on or inside a player character, such as Daedric Curse, or Backlash. (Damage over time effects)
    • Attacks that can be dodged, but not blocked
      • Secondary effects that penetrate Block such as the Damage over Time from Sunfire, the surprise attack armor debuff, or the snare from Low Slash snare.
      • Note: Block continues to provide stun immunity, so it will stop a secondary effect like the stun from Stonefist.
    Exceptions to these rules will be stated each ability’s tooltip, such as Fiery Grip which cannot be dodged or reflected.

    In case you missed it:
    1. "
      • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
        • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
        • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
        "


      Certainly 25m on Spear Shards isn't considered ranged is it? If so then Arrow Sprays 20m is definitely MELEE!

      Wardens have a 20m undodgeable AOE that more than doubles the damage of Arrow Spray while also either providing a major debuff or stunning you. And you are worried about Arrow Spray?
    Lol and you say I'm trolling.

    First of all I did not say that this is a game of ancient times... But it uses ancient weapons (our ancient weapons..bow, arrows etc) - ... It also uses magic and other weird things..

    Spear shard has 25m range but it's radius is 5 meters-ish (I don't have the tooltip) while the acid spray is an arc with radius 20 meters! Also spear lands on the ground and it explodes, and that explosion can't be dodged..idk it sounds logical to me.

    I really don't mind if zos makes spray undodgable ... They just need to reduce the radius to 10m first (comparable to whirlwind) - but I doubt that pve community agree!
    Edited by Didgerion on February 1, 2018 5:55AM
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
    Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

    Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

    And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

    Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

    Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

    And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

    And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

    Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
    Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

    Powerful Spells didn't exist in Ancient Times so that doesn't do you any favors. When these two knives spin around you they also extend your arms out 9m? Are you also implying that somehow projectiles are more dodgeable than someones swing? I'm fairly certain if you examine your Ancient Times you will find that dodging someones swing was totally doable.

    So distance is the crucial factor? Perhaps you should look more closely at the PTS notes:
    Developer Comment - Block and Dodge Rulesets:
    We’ve updated several abilities so they better adhere to our block and dodge mechanics. The system is set up to be intuitive – attacks on the ground such as fire or Caltrops cannot be blocked or dodged. We also want dodging to be useful during some instances, and blocking to be useful at other times. The ruleset is as follows:
    • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
      • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
      • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
    • Attacks that cannot be blocked or dodged
      • Damage on the ground such as Wall of Elements, Caltrops, or Lightning Splash.
      • Effects that are on or inside a player character, such as Daedric Curse, or Backlash. (Damage over time effects)
    • Attacks that can be dodged, but not blocked
      • Secondary effects that penetrate Block such as the Damage over Time from Sunfire, the surprise attack armor debuff, or the snare from Low Slash snare.
      • Note: Block continues to provide stun immunity, so it will stop a secondary effect like the stun from Stonefist.
    Exceptions to these rules will be stated each ability’s tooltip, such as Fiery Grip which cannot be dodged or reflected.

    In case you missed it:
    1. "
      • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
        • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
        • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
        "


      Certainly 25m on Spear Shards isn't considered ranged is it? If so then Arrow Sprays 20m is definitely MELEE!

      Wardens have a 20m undodgeable AOE that more than doubles the damage of Arrow Spray while also either providing a major debuff or stunning you. And you are worried about Arrow Spray?
    Lol and you say I'm trolling.

    First of all I did not say that this is a game of ancient times... But it uses ancient weapons (our ancient weapons..bow, arrows etc) - ... It also uses magic and other weird things..

    Spear shard has 25m range but it's radius is 5 meters-ish (I don't have the tooltip) while the acid spray is an arc with radius 20 meters! Also spear lands on the ground and it explodes, and that explosion can't be dodged..idk it sounds logical to me.

    I really don't mind if zos makes spray undodgable ... They just need to reduce the radius to 10m first (comparable to whirlwind) - but I doubt that pve community agree!

    Why? Bow is a ranged weapon, not something you're supposed to use at melee range. Or did your "ancient archers" run up to peoples' faces to shoot them?

    It's bad enough already that Scatter Shot has 10m range (while the comparable skill, Destructive Clench, has 17-28m), main reason bow sucks atm for anything but ganking.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Feanor
    Feanor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would be all for buffing bow if it were done in small increments to see the impact. Alas we know that this doesn’t happen at all.
    Edited by Feanor on February 1, 2018 8:17AM
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Reminder this is not 'buff bow' thread. These threads never worked and most people gave up trying.

    But it is 'use same logic on bow skills as you used on all other skills when you literally decided to change bunch of skills for consistency' I hope we aren't yet at that part where bow skills not only don't deserve buff, they also don't deserve to be treated to same standards as the more popular used skills, just because majority of people don't care so there won't be any complaining.
    Edited by SodanTok on February 1, 2018 11:00AM
    PC | EU | AD
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Reminder this is not 'buff bow' thread. These threads never worked and most people gave up trying.

    But it is 'use same logic on bow skills as you used on all other skills when you literally decided to change bunch of skills for consistency' I hope we aren't yet at that part where bow skills not only don't deserve buff, they also don't deserve to be treated to same standards as the more popular used skills, just because majority of people don't care so there won't be any complaining.

    Kinda sad, since a large portion if not most of skyrim players were stealth archers
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
    ✭✭✭
    I haven't tested it but I have a feeling arrow spray is intended to be undodgeable since it'd be in line with wardens shalk or templars jabs (kinda). I think they mentioned before that aoes in general were supposed to be undodgeable barring your ability to just step out of the aoe in time ( flashbacks to trying to leap stam sorcs :'( ), so I'd be surprised if arrow spray was the only one not to adhere to that.
    Edited by Bakkagami on February 1, 2018 1:31PM
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    Am I the only one who finds this funny concerning the topic at hand?
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)

    ;)

    No Miats = Bow viable

    By the way, there's a good combo with Snipe + take flight + magnum's...
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    When it comes to crap, big-time, major league crap, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, ZoS. No contest. No contest. ZoS. ZoS easily has the greatest crap story ever told. Think about it: ZoS has actually convinced people, that there's a balance patch, coming next chapter, which will make you do everything you want do, at any hour, every day. And this balance patch has a special list of things it wants you to do. And if you don't do any of these things, it has a special place, full of lag and zergs and bleeds and procs and nerfs, where he will send you to die and suffer and respec and die and give AP and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

    But it loves you. It loves you, and it has lag! It always has lag! It's all-fun, all-perfect, all-lore, and all-challenging, somehow just can't handle lag! ZoS takes in millions of dollars, they pay no high-end servers, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good crap story. Holy Proc!
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
    Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

    Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

    And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

    Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

    Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

    And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

    And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

    Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
    Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

    A 28 mts beam is standard for magicka classes. And that's undodgeable and quite strong.

    Please, don't try to cover the sun with your finger...
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    When it comes to crap, big-time, major league crap, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, ZoS. No contest. No contest. ZoS. ZoS easily has the greatest crap story ever told. Think about it: ZoS has actually convinced people, that there's a balance patch, coming next chapter, which will make you do everything you want do, at any hour, every day. And this balance patch has a special list of things it wants you to do. And if you don't do any of these things, it has a special place, full of lag and zergs and bleeds and procs and nerfs, where he will send you to die and suffer and respec and die and give AP and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

    But it loves you. It loves you, and it has lag! It always has lag! It's all-fun, all-perfect, all-lore, and all-challenging, somehow just can't handle lag! ZoS takes in millions of dollars, they pay no high-end servers, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good crap story. Holy Proc!
  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
    Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

    Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

    And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

    Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

    Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

    And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

    And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

    Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
    Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

    A 28 mts beam is standard for magicka classes. And that's undodgeable and quite strong.

    Please, don't try to cover the sun with your finger...

    Aren't beams interruptable and blockable? And it feels natural that magic beams are non dodgable - they are not laser beams after-all. Even if beams are too powerful it is dumb to make them dodgeable - there are more wise ways to fix beams - like reducing the range, or decreasing the damage or increasing the cost - but that's another balance-thread.

    And I agree that gap closers nerfs and block nerfs is an indirect buff to beams as well. But lets see he how it goes live and then cry!
  • Didgerion
    Didgerion
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
    Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

    Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

    And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

    Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

    Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

    And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

    And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

    Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
    Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

    Powerful Spells didn't exist in Ancient Times so that doesn't do you any favors. When these two knives spin around you they also extend your arms out 9m? Are you also implying that somehow projectiles are more dodgeable than someones swing? I'm fairly certain if you examine your Ancient Times you will find that dodging someones swing was totally doable.

    So distance is the crucial factor? Perhaps you should look more closely at the PTS notes:
    Developer Comment - Block and Dodge Rulesets:
    We’ve updated several abilities so they better adhere to our block and dodge mechanics. The system is set up to be intuitive – attacks on the ground such as fire or Caltrops cannot be blocked or dodged. We also want dodging to be useful during some instances, and blocking to be useful at other times. The ruleset is as follows:
    • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
      • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
      • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
    • Attacks that cannot be blocked or dodged
      • Damage on the ground such as Wall of Elements, Caltrops, or Lightning Splash.
      • Effects that are on or inside a player character, such as Daedric Curse, or Backlash. (Damage over time effects)
    • Attacks that can be dodged, but not blocked
      • Secondary effects that penetrate Block such as the Damage over Time from Sunfire, the surprise attack armor debuff, or the snare from Low Slash snare.
      • Note: Block continues to provide stun immunity, so it will stop a secondary effect like the stun from Stonefist.
    Exceptions to these rules will be stated each ability’s tooltip, such as Fiery Grip which cannot be dodged or reflected.

    In case you missed it:
    1. "
      • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
        • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
        • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
        "


      Certainly 25m on Spear Shards isn't considered ranged is it? If so then Arrow Sprays 20m is definitely MELEE!

      Wardens have a 20m undodgeable AOE that more than doubles the damage of Arrow Spray while also either providing a major debuff or stunning you. And you are worried about Arrow Spray?
    Lol and you say I'm trolling.

    First of all I did not say that this is a game of ancient times... But it uses ancient weapons (our ancient weapons..bow, arrows etc) - ... It also uses magic and other weird things..

    Spear shard has 25m range but it's radius is 5 meters-ish (I don't have the tooltip) while the acid spray is an arc with radius 20 meters! Also spear lands on the ground and it explodes, and that explosion can't be dodged..idk it sounds logical to me.

    I really don't mind if zos makes spray undodgable ... They just need to reduce the radius to 10m first (comparable to whirlwind) - but I doubt that pve community agree!

    Why? Bow is a ranged weapon, not something you're supposed to use at melee range. Or did your "ancient archers" run up to peoples' faces to shoot them?

    It's bad enough already that Scatter Shot has 10m range (while the comparable skill, Destructive Clench, has 17-28m), main reason bow sucks atm for anything but ganking.

    Ancient or not - but you are talking arrows here and not machine gun bullets - and if your bow's chord is throwing 10 arrows at a time then the probability they will penetrate any armor at 15 meters is 0. So basically yes if you choose to shoot a bunch of arrows at the same time then it is basically is a melee - mid range attack - and definitely not a long range attack.
    Like it or not - but I would really not push the undodgeable idea here - as if ZOS team makes it undodgable then they will reduce its radius as well - for balance sake - I'm quite sure about it.

  • Jamini
    Jamini
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just gonna politely throw this here. From the PTS. A parse from a friend.

    Screenshot_20180130_192449.png

    Bow, at least in PvE, is much more viable than some people seem to think. You just need to work harder at it (and the ceiling is a little lower than it is for sNB)
    "Adapt. or Die."
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Jamini wrote: »
    Just gonna politely throw this here. From the PTS. A parse from a friend.

    Screenshot_20180130_192449.png

    Bow, at least in PvE, is much more viable than some people seem to think. You just need to work harder at it (and the ceiling is a little lower than it is for sNB)

    This is not buff bow thread, but the parse shows DPS of which every class not using bow is capable of (and this one is pretty low for NB). Bow are viable and were viable (and sometimes even more than they are now) for past 2 years. They just weren't EVER good enough to use them over something else.
    Edited by SodanTok on February 1, 2018 9:29PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Didgerion wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Didgerion wrote: »
    They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

    Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them :|

    (plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

    Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

    And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.


    That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range :D Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

    //edit;
    Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
    But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

    Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

    But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

    Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

    But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.
    This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

    I don't think it was overlooked.
    Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
    Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.
    Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

    Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

    And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

    Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

    Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

    And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

    And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

    Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
    Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

    Powerful Spells didn't exist in Ancient Times so that doesn't do you any favors. When these two knives spin around you they also extend your arms out 9m? Are you also implying that somehow projectiles are more dodgeable than someones swing? I'm fairly certain if you examine your Ancient Times you will find that dodging someones swing was totally doable.

    So distance is the crucial factor? Perhaps you should look more closely at the PTS notes:
    Developer Comment - Block and Dodge Rulesets:
    We’ve updated several abilities so they better adhere to our block and dodge mechanics. The system is set up to be intuitive – attacks on the ground such as fire or Caltrops cannot be blocked or dodged. We also want dodging to be useful during some instances, and blocking to be useful at other times. The ruleset is as follows:
    • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
      • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
      • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
    • Attacks that cannot be blocked or dodged
      • Damage on the ground such as Wall of Elements, Caltrops, or Lightning Splash.
      • Effects that are on or inside a player character, such as Daedric Curse, or Backlash. (Damage over time effects)
    • Attacks that can be dodged, but not blocked
      • Secondary effects that penetrate Block such as the Damage over Time from Sunfire, the surprise attack armor debuff, or the snare from Low Slash snare.
      • Note: Block continues to provide stun immunity, so it will stop a secondary effect like the stun from Stonefist.
    Exceptions to these rules will be stated each ability’s tooltip, such as Fiery Grip which cannot be dodged or reflected.

    In case you missed it:
    1. "
      • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
        • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
        • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
        "


      Certainly 25m on Spear Shards isn't considered ranged is it? If so then Arrow Sprays 20m is definitely MELEE!

      Wardens have a 20m undodgeable AOE that more than doubles the damage of Arrow Spray while also either providing a major debuff or stunning you. And you are worried about Arrow Spray?
    Lol and you say I'm trolling.

    First of all I did not say that this is a game of ancient times... But it uses ancient weapons (our ancient weapons..bow, arrows etc) - ... It also uses magic and other weird things..

    Spear shard has 25m range but it's radius is 5 meters-ish (I don't have the tooltip) while the acid spray is an arc with radius 20 meters! Also spear lands on the ground and it explodes, and that explosion can't be dodged..idk it sounds logical to me.

    I really don't mind if zos makes spray undodgable ... They just need to reduce the radius to 10m first (comparable to whirlwind) - but I doubt that pve community agree!

    Why? Bow is a ranged weapon, not something you're supposed to use at melee range. Or did your "ancient archers" run up to peoples' faces to shoot them?

    It's bad enough already that Scatter Shot has 10m range (while the comparable skill, Destructive Clench, has 17-28m), main reason bow sucks atm for anything but ganking.

    Ancient or not - but you are talking arrows here and not machine gun bullets - and if your bow's chord is throwing 10 arrows at a time then the probability they will penetrate any armor at 15 meters is 0. So basically yes if you choose to shoot a bunch of arrows at the same time then it is basically is a melee - mid range attack - and definitely not a long range attack.
    Like it or not - but I would really not push the undodgeable idea here - as if ZOS team makes it undodgable then they will reduce its radius as well - for balance sake - I'm quite sure about it.
    Reducing the raidus is entirely your idea and has nothing to do with ZOS. Perhaps you should get a ZOS tag next to your name before presuming their actions.

    Your ideas to how bows work have nothing to do with the stated combat changes. This is a MMO, four million arrows could be fired with one draw.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jamini wrote: »
    Just gonna politely throw this here. From the PTS. A parse from a friend.

    Screenshot_20180130_192449.png

    Bow, at least in PvE, is much more viable than some people seem to think. You just need to work harder at it (and the ceiling is a little lower than it is for sNB)

    curious, sets and mundus? can you repeat on a 6 M?
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