The best solution for DKs. Lava Whip Rework!

joaaocaampos

Damage/Heal vs Stun. PvE vs PvP.

Just as Zenimax did with Crystal Shard (Sorcerer ability), one of the best ways to balance PvE/PvP is to separate things. And the morphs are there for that! You can divide morphs into "Magicka or Stamina" and "PvE or PvP", for example.

PTS Patch Notes v3.3.3 is coming and I don't know if this can be implemented in time. Anyway, we can see a version 3.3.4 before the release of the new Update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobbel @Alcast @Gilliamtherogue

This is my rework. This is my idea.

Lava Whip

• Lash an enemy with flame, dealing Flame Damage.
• While slotted, your Spell and Weapon damage is increased for Ardent Flame abilities.

The first morph is the "PvP morph" and it will look like this:

Molten Whip

• Lash an enemy with flame, dealing Flame Damage, stunning them and sets them Off Balance for X seconds.
• While slotted, your Spell and Weapon damage is increased for Ardent Flame abilities.

The second morph, obviously, is the "PvE morph".

Flame Lash

• Lash an enemy with flame, dealing Flame Damage.
• Targeting an off balance enemy changes this ability into Power Lash, allowing you to lash an enemy with more intense flame to deal Flame Damage and heal you over 2 seconds.
• While slotted, your Spell and Weapon damage is increased for Ardent Flame abilities.

What can we see above?

• "If you strike an enemy that is immobilized or stunned, you also set them off balance." was completely removed.
• The current Molten Whip effect was brought to base ability.
• The Power Lash stun was brought to Molten Whip. That is, there is no more stun in Power Lash.
• No cooldown.

I hope you read it with love.

I edited because I missed words and forgot others.

IZZEFlameLash

I think you mixed up pvp and pve. It used to be that molten whip was for pve and flame lash for pvp. As a pvper flame lash heal is more important than your suggested changes. PvE dps people do not need the heal as much as pvpers which was the reason why pvpers chose flame lash as the go to morph for them for burst and heals. Pvers only started using flame lash after scoffing at people using flame lash in pve because if power lash proc being free of cost.

joaaocaampos

From my suggestion, even then, a PvP player can choose Flame Lash if he wants. He will have damage and self-healing, but not stun.

Derra

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

You really do hate DKs don´t you pal?

@Joy_Division if you want to have a good laugh.

joaaocaampos

Derra wrote: »

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

Yes.

Derra wrote: »

You really do hate DKs don´t you pal?

No. I'm trying to help. Better than seeing PvE players being affected by PvP.

In the end, Zenimax can do it differently. The point is to separate damage and stun. Self-healing may be present in both cases.

• Lava Whip: damage and self-heal.
• Molten Whip: damage, stun and self-heal.
• Flame Lash: intense damage and self-heal.

Dubhliam

I definitely agree Whip should be reworked to have a PvP and PvE morph.

But not exactly the way you propose.
The heal over time is definitely a PvP thing.

The PvE morph should still remain as it is (only this morph boosts Ardent Flame) but they should also add some sustain mechanic to that morph to adress the PvE mDK sustain issues.

Somehing like: hitting an off balance target with this skill increases magicka regeneration by X for X seconds (stackable).

This would make it very attractive in PvE but not in PvP since the first time you proc it on a player, the off balance gets consumed, unlike dungeon bosses.

Anhedonie

LOL

Derra

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

Yes.

Ok so which is the pvp morph and which is the pve morph?
Essentially fragments vanished from pve with the dmg decrease (it can be replaced with better skills - it only exists on one sorc to gain minor prophecy) and Blast is still unused in all situations.

Also your suggestion for whip would make it completely OP. The stun is irrelevant as ppl would just stun with petrify gain off balance of that and spam high dmg no cost for maxium profit.

Your intentions may be good but the execution is outright terrible showing a clear lack in understanding of the class/pvp.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

They need to let the 101 spell and weapon damage apply to everything on the bar for whip, maybe up it to 151, to compete with flame lash. Lash is just too good.

DeadlyRecluse

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Just as Zenimax did with Crystal Shard (Sorcerer ability), one of the best ways to balance PvE/PvP is to separate things. And the morphs are there for that! You can divide morphs into "Magicka or Stamina" and "PvE or PvP", for example.

Wait, so....is Crystal Blast the preferred morph in PvE now? Or is it a stamina morph?

I have so much to learn.

DDuke

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

They need to let the 101 spell and weapon damage apply to everything on the bar for whip, maybe up it to 151, to compete with flame lash. Lash is just too good.

...or they could just revamp the whole thing - "101 spell and weapon dmg to Ardent Flame abilities" is just boring.


I bet if they'd make Molten Whip restore magicka (like Flame Lash restores health) the PvErs would be happy.


Lash is so good btw that I've decided to drop Vigor on stam DK - I get a stronger heal (and a stun, if not CC immune) for free from Flame Lash every 3s when I hit someone I put Off Balance with Tactician CP & Shuffle or Dodge Roll.

joaaocaampos

Derra wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

Yes.

Essentially fragments vanished from pve with the dmg decrease.

Crystal Fragments and damage decrease? Where? I didn't see any Patch Notes with such information! The Crystal Fragments damage remains the same. What happened is that the skill doesn't stun anymore.

joaaocaampos

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sorcerer

• Dark Magic
  • Crystal Shards: This ability and the Crystal Fragments morph no longer stun the enemy hit. The Crystal Blast morph continues to stun the initial enemy hit.
    Developer Comment:
    We wanted to separate the function of abilities into more distinct roles. Crystal Shards was overloaded since it had high damage, instant cast, stun, reduced cost. Now if the sorcerer wants a stun they have to either go through a cast time or deal reduced damage.

@Derra I found the note. There is no damage nerf. If there was any nerf, I didn't know.

Anyway, yes, self-healing is useful in all situations. That's why I suggested that.

joaaocaampos wrote: »

• Lava Whip: damage and self-heal.
• Molten Whip: damage, stun and self-heal.
• Flame Lash: high damage and self-heal.

Hutch679

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Damage/Heal vs Stun. PvE vs PvP.

Just as Zenimax did with Crystal Shard (Sorcerer ability), one of the best ways to balance PvE/PvP is to separate things. And the morphs are there for that! You can divide morphs into "Magicka or Stamina" and "PvE or PvP", for example.

PTS Patch Notes v3.3.3 is coming and I don't know if this can be implemented in time. Anyway, we can see a version 3.3.4 before the release of the new Update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobbel @Alcast @Gilliamtherogue

This is my rework. This is my idea.

Lava Whip

• Lash an enemy with flame, dealing Flame Damage.
• While slotted, your Spell and Weapon damage is increased for Ardent Flame abilities.

The first morph is the "PvP morph" and it will look like this:

Molten Whip

• Lash an enemy with flame, dealing Flame Damage, stunning them and sets them Off Balance for X seconds.
• While slotted, your Spell and Weapon damage is increased for Ardent Flame abilities.

The second morph, obviously, is the "PvE morph".

Flame Lash

• Lash an enemy with flame, dealing Flame Damage.
• Targeting an off balance enemy changes this ability into Power Lash, allowing you to lash an enemy with more intense flame to deal Flame Damage and heal you over 2 seconds.
• While slotted, your Spell and Weapon damage is increased for Ardent Flame abilities.

What can we see above?

• "If you strike an enemy that is immobilized or stunned, you also set them off balance." was completely removed.
• The current Molten Whip effect was brought to base ability.
• The Power Lash stun was brought to Molten Whip. That is, there is no more stun in Power Lash.
• No cooldown.

I hope you read it with love.

I edited because I missed words and forgot others.

Hahahaha

Derra

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

Yes.

Essentially fragments vanished from pve with the dmg decrease.

Crystal Fragments and damage decrease? Where? I didn't see any Patch Notes with such information! The Crystal Fragments damage remains the same. What happened is that the skill doesn't stun anymore.

It was the patch before the stun got removed.

Also nothing about the patchnotes you quoted suggests anything about pvp or pve.

Stamden

The solution really isn't that complicated. Even after lol boost elo it isn't that simple.

For PvP morph, return health
For PvE morph, return magicka

Derra

Stamden wrote: »

The solution really isn't that complicated.

For PvP morph, return health
For PvE morph, return magicka

tbh i´d find the magica return tempting even in pvp.
it would be an overall enticing morph choice - which is why i like the idea.

krathos

Oh damn yeah having one morph return magicka and the other health but both acting like power lash would be a hard choice. I like it.

joaaocaampos

Derra wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

Yes.

Essentially fragments vanished from pve with the dmg decrease.

Crystal Fragments and damage decrease? Where? I didn't see any Patch Notes with such information! The Crystal Fragments damage remains the same. What happened is that the skill doesn't stun anymore.

It was the patch before the stun got removed.

Okay. I got it. But before quoting Crystal Shard, I said "Damage vs. Stun". You asked "Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?", but I was not talking about damage nerf.

Obviously, the Lava Whip (and its morphs) damage dont need nerf. But yes buff.

ak_pvp

Nah, that'd be a nerf for PvP.

Stun+heal>Stun+damage

For PvE it should have the restore mag morph like others were saying. Restore 300 mag when whipping a burning target or smth. And the paltry 100 extra sp/wp on ardent flame abilities would instead become 100 SP/WP total vs burning enemies. So it'd have a requirement but be up much more in PvE.

Derra

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

Yes.

Essentially fragments vanished from pve with the dmg decrease.

Crystal Fragments and damage decrease? Where? I didn't see any Patch Notes with such information! The Crystal Fragments damage remains the same. What happened is that the skill doesn't stun anymore.

It was the patch before the stun got removed.

Okay. I got it. But before quoting Crystal Shard, I said "Damage vs. Stun". You asked "Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?", but I was not talking about damage nerf.

Obviously, the Lava Whip (and its morphs) damage dont need nerf. But yes buff.

Except that going by the sorc example this would mean that they should simply nerf flamelash to make powerlash more appealing.
Because that´s what happened for sorc (still nobody uses crystal blast btw).

Xvorg

What if we leave whip just as it was before this damned patch, before developers believed they could reinvent the wheel?

It's a bad patch. Synergies changes are ok, but all the crap around off balance has produced more crap... and expect some dire bugs after it goes live.

Joy_Division

Derra wrote: »

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

You really do hate DKs don´t you pal?

@Joy_Division if you want to have a good laugh.

It was amusing. I think as a PvPer I'd take the PvE morph, but that what we get when we take inspiration from a previous terrible nerf.

DKs are just a mess right now. The class was clearly designed to be played with the combat mechanics before the Champion System and now shines by relying on crutch mechanics like spamming super powerful procs, perma-blocking, and a host of undodgeable abilities. Take away the crutches and you're usually better off just playing a different class.

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Is this seriously suggesting the change to crystal fragments was desireable and should be a model for the changes to flamelash?

You really do hate DKs don´t you pal?

@Joy_Division if you want to have a good laugh.

It was amusing. I think as a PvPer I'd take the PvE morph, but that what we get when we take inspiration from a previous terrible nerf.

DKs are just a mess right now. The class was clearly designed to be played with the combat mechanics before the Champion System and now shines by relying on crutch mechanics like spamming super powerful procs, perma-blocking, and a host of undodgeable abilities. Take away the crutches and you're usually better off just playing a different class.

^^
From PvE standpoint:

Things like the health recovery stat and battle roar come from really early game where soft caps and dynamic ult were a thing, so DKs lack of stat/recovery boosts weren't as bad then. Then champion system got a lot of base class stuff nerfed after the fact too, which lead to some awful sustain now.

Another "legacy" thing is DK not having an execute because their dots+ult were stronger than others. Then when PL became meta its extra damage vs normal spammables sort of made up for the lack of switch to execute. Now neither are exactly true, though stamDK still has some high damage.