Potential Solution for Fake Tanks/Healers in Grouping tool

AlnilamE

This would pretty much discourage me from taking my healers to random dungeons with the group finder.

Right now, I am confident that even if I end up with bad DPS, I can compensate for it and we can complete the dungeon successfully in a reasonable time.

If queuing as a healer means that I will not be able to do this, then I might as well stop healing random dungeons.

And there is a problem with the whole "fake healer/tank" issue: You can't tell ahead of time. People can tank a dungeon in light armor and an ice staff. They can heal even if they are not wearing Worm/SPC.

A tank decked in heavy armor that only uses the melee taunt and therefore runs all over the place to taunt adds is worse than a NB in LA that queued as a tank and knows how to draw aggro and where to position the boss.

So this is an issue that can only be sorted at the individual group level. There is no pre-made solution that will help (though I really liked the "certification" idea)

Drdeath20

If somebody que's up as a tank on a normal dungeon and is actually a tank i will kick them ASAP.

Im trying to farm sets on normal, im definetly not trying to spend an hour on 1 normal dungeon

hydrocynus

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If somebody que's up as a tank on a normal dungeon and is actually a tank i will kick them ASAP.

Im trying to farm sets on normal, im definetly not trying to spend an hour on 1 normal dungeon

Most can be done solo so what difference would a tank make?

josiahva

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If somebody que's up as a tank on a normal dungeon and is actually a tank i will kick them ASAP.

Im trying to farm sets on normal, im definetly not trying to spend an hour on 1 normal dungeon

God forbid that a tank actually learn to tank before being thrown into Vet dungeons...idiot.

Aurielle

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If somebody que's up as a tank on a normal dungeon and is actually a tank i will kick them ASAP.

Im trying to farm sets on normal, im definetly not trying to spend an hour on 1 normal dungeon

LOL, an hour? Exaggerate much? Any normal dungeon can easily (and quickly) be soloed by ONE competent damage dealer. You're really going to kick someone who's learning how to tank and give them 15 minute queue penalty? By all means, kick someone who's NOT performing their selected role properly. Don't kick someone simply because you're impatient.

KRBMMO

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Or create content that actually needs both a tank and a healer? Maybe a good idea, or not

Basically it's just the fact that ZOS destroyed their game with CP. Every player is unbalanced and all content is way too easy after you get past CP 300.

For the game to be actually challenging again and require healers and tanks you'd have to tone back CP to 160 - which is what the game and all content is scaled around except maybe Trials. If everyone was back to CP 160 you can guarantee they'd be crying for healers and tanks.

But if you are a self-healing tanky DPS with over 600 CP you don't even need other players let alone specific roles.

Ajitator

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If somebody que's up as a tank on a normal dungeon and is actually a tank i will kick them ASAP.

Im trying to farm sets on normal, im definetly not trying to spend an hour on 1 normal dungeon

Seriously,.. Complain that there are no vet tanks,.. and kick tanks that run normal dungeons to figure out what they're doing. Great logic here guys. If you want to farm sets get a group to farm a set, don't use the group finder.

Aurielle wrote: »

Don't kick someone simply because you're impatient.

The whole topic can be boiled down to this... Don't cross-role queue because you're impatient, Don't kick people because you're impatient.

Talrol

I would never heal a pug again as on my healer I generally end up contributing 40 to 60% of the group dps while still keeping everyone healed, so just no.

Ajitator

KRBMMO wrote: »

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Or create content that actually needs both a tank and a healer? Maybe a good idea, or not

Basically it's just the fact that ZOS destroyed their game with CP. Every player is unbalanced and all content is way too easy after you get past CP 300.

For the game to be actually challenging again and require healers and tanks you'd have to tone back CP to 160 - which is what the game and all content is scaled around except maybe Trials. If everyone was back to CP 160 you can guarantee they'd be crying for healers and tanks.

But if you are a self-healing tanky DPS with over 600 CP you don't even need other players let alone specific roles.

Stop with this argument - It's not about what you do or don't *need* to finish a dungeon or finish content.

It's about inconveniencing other players who were not given a chance to make that decision for themselves.

Just because you and your 3 sorc dps friends can do a dungeon with no healer or tank doesn't mean that the 3 PUGs you end up with can,. or want to support that.

phileunderx2

Ajitator wrote: »

phileunderx2 wrote: »

For me queing as a dps means I will have to do the dungeon solo because it never pops for me if I que as a dps. Waited 2 hrs a couple of weeks ago for tempest island on my sorc. Never popped so finally just went in with my clanifer tank and solo led it. So there are many people out there that cannot get in a group as a dps.

If you're queuing for a random obscure dungeon that's not the daily you're going to wait a long time for a full group to queue for it.. How does that not make sense to you?

It wasn't some random dungeon it was the pledge.

pelle412

I've seen a few bad PUGs but it's mostly just fine. The problems I primarily see are DPS queueing as tanks (because they don't want to wait) and then fail to perform that role. In a PUG with experienced players this is rarely an issue but a majority of ESO player base don't fall into that category and expect or basically need the players to perform their roles for an enjoyable dungeon experience. A small fix to the dungeon finder can mitigate this to a degree.

1. Allow only one role to be selected in group.

2. Add a checkbox called Unrestricted Group. If you check this box, you are saying it's fine to form a group not consisting of 1 tank, 1 heals, and 2 dps. You can end up with 4 DPS (likely outcome).

The dungeon finder can then run on two separate threads. The main thread forms restricted groups based on the selected role for each player and the second thread forms groups that are unrestricted. This should cut down queue time for DPS who don't mind non-traditional groups.

Feanor

Fake DD are much more of an issue. I can very well do without a tank or a healer because I can look after myself, but if the damage is too low, the best tanking and the best healing will get you nowhere.

It's not a question of CP either. I was doing vCoA II yesterday as it was pledge and I needed the helm. Queued as DD and got into a group instantly. Group consisted of 3 CP 570+ guys. They didn't remark anything about my CP 170 and just started, in fact they didn't talk much at all. Everyone did his job and pulled his weight and we cleared the dungeon no problem and even did HM successfully without wiping once ever. As a bonus the helm dropped in divines for me. Group finder as it should be.

Merlin13KAGL

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Honestly, make the Undaunted Pledge have a legit, multi phase tutorial that gives you a basic run down of exactly what is expected of you as a Tank/DPS/Healer with easy to understand instructions. Open up all Undaunted Skills during said tutorial so that it would provide players a chance to familiarize themselves with some concepts, such as synergies, taunts, etc.

Basics:
For Tanks, you are given a basic run down on Taunts.
For DPS, you need to kill a target (5k minimal DPS required)
For Healers, you are given targets to heal.

Intermediate:
For Tanks, they need to learn to CC targets (turning Trapping Webs into an AoE CC ability would be a boon to tanks everywhere)
For DPS, kill multiple targets within an allotted time (8k DPS minimal required)
For Healers, keeping HoTs up.

Expert:
For Tanks, survive an onslaught of enemies while keeping enemies from killing your allies.
For DPS, kill a boss enemy and its adds before it kills your team. (10k minimal DPS required)
For Healers, keep buffs up and allies alive for a set duration.

Have this tutorial give out an achievement for that specific role. Have this achievement tied into a dungeon lock out system that will prevent you from queuing up as that role until you unlock the achievement (A bit harsh but if it helps to limit fakes, I'l gladly take a few minutes to earn my position). Absolute worst case scenario, Duty Finder dies since no one will do the tutorial. Best case scenario, you have tanks that at least know the basics of tanking and can pull aggro, DPS capable of pulling minimal 10k DPS a piece, and healers that knows what a healing ability is.

No, it's not a perfect system. People will just unlock all achievements in about 10 minutes and continue doing what they're currently doing, being the best fake tanks/DPS/Healers they can be but at least it would deter some people at the end of the day, that's all ZOS can really do at this point.

I've been calling for a guantlet of sorts for this very reason for some time.

Ironically, this is probably what Undaunted Rep was partially intended for. It also used to be done by having people link certain achieves. The original progression of dungeons also helped with this, but the facerolling of normal and the scaling of all eliminated that progression, unfortunately.

It used to mean something when a Level 25 could walk in and rock a Level 40 group dungeon.

The gauntlet could be used for more than just initial certification - it could provide a score for the appropriate role, and ideally, a way to improve and practice on that role.

Even if you got points per run (dungeons or gauntlet, either one) it would add up. Someone who's done their role successfully 10, 100, 1000 times probably have a certain level of competence. This would at least show when you're getting a 4 star healer or 1/2 star tank (*hint hint*) after so many runs.

You'd have to run so many times before the 'score' even showed up, preventing new players from being excluded from all but the hardest content.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

If somebody que's up as a tank on a normal dungeon and is actually a tank i will try to kick them ASAP.

Im trying to farm sets on normal, im definetly not trying to spend an hour on 1 normal dungeon

Fixed it for you.

Fortunately, the other two people with you are likely not idiots and won't kick someone for doing their role.

You need to enter with a premade four man group or solo it yourself. GF isn't their for your convenience solely so you can farm gear, and if you're really doing what you say you do above, you should be blocked from using the finder entirely.