Potential Solution for Fake Tanks/Healers in Grouping tool

VexingArcanist

xaraan wrote: »

I've thought they should only allow the selection of one role period

It's enabled by default, it's called: Install Guild Wars 2

If that's your dream gameplay, GW2 is your dream game.

idk

Tenn60 wrote: »

To be honest most vet dungeons, minus dlc ones, can be done without a tank and healer, and 90% of the community that uses group finder just wants to get through the dungeon as fast as possible. Join a guild or find people to run with if you want to have correct roles. 3 dps and a tank/healer or in most cases 4 dps will help you burn through dungeons quicker than a proper group.

I've tanked vWGT without anyone healing at any point. I've tanked vICP with the healer dead most of the fight. She died early ans we didn't see the need to res her. It would have just lengthened the right. All this since Morrowind.

So yes, the trinity isn't required for most dungeons.

Ajitator

Tenn60 wrote: »

To be honest most vet dungeons, minus dlc ones, can be done without a tank and healer, and 90% of the community that uses group finder just wants to get through the dungeon as fast as possible. Join a guild or find people to run with if you want to have correct roles. 3 dps and a tank/healer or in most cases 4 dps will help you burn through dungeons quicker than a proper group.

No, Just No,..You sir are part of the problem.

If you want to ignore roles and rip through a dungeon with 3 DPS YOU should be the one getting a guild and running that with your friends or guildies. The point of the group finder is for the people who don't have those readily available.

I have no control over the 3 other members that show up in my random daily. I expect that the group is full of players doing their role. I don't care if you put out 3k dps or 30k dps so long as you queue as a DPS we can get through the dungeon ( with a few "dps race" dungeons excluded ).

Aisle9

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Fun fact

Having a game cater to casual players, then complaining about casual players joining the game's content is not necessarily in the realm of reasonable conversation.

If you join for a Pug, you assume your fellow puglets may be awesome players, or awful players.

It doesn't matter how many restrictions you put in the grouping tool.

You don't like the puglets you got, leave, try again.

Politely ask to be kicked, go afk if they refuse, so they will eventually votekick you, and you won't get the debuff, otherwise suck it up, leave the group, wait 10 minutes.

Also, concerning your OP:

bonus to resistances is useless, as real tanks already are close to resistance caps, therefore it would only help fake tanks. 50% damage debuff, for a DD pushing 40k is still 20k. For a DD reaching 30k - > 15k.

Average tanks pull anywhere between 3 to 5k, really active tanks, with specialized builds can reach 9 - 10k.

Also, tanks that rely on heavy attacks to sustain will get the shaft.

50% damage debuff to healers will mean heavy attacks will restore less magicka, while 10% more healing done is pretty much useless, as you can't heal more than max HP, while you still can't [reliably] outheal oneshots, therefore dedicated healers won't notice it in the slightest, while healers that rely on damage (e.g. NB healers) will get shafted.

as for the 10% to max stat + 10% damage to DDs... sure, sounds fun, I always wanted to get a 70k single target parse in a dungeon.

But, no, I'm against it, not really for the buffs and debuffs, but simply because I believe the GF is a lame horse, beyond saving, and we should just let it die. Then a proper matchmaking tool can be designed. The reason why this won't happen is because of how I started the reply:

The game is catering to casual players, therefore you need to be able to let them reach content, even if it's by technically cheating.

And I'm using the term casual as in player that is not invested in the game, but rather just want to kill time. I know it's probably reductive, but that roughly translate in "that guy spamming light attacks in the corner with the bow" or "the fake tank with the greatsword". I'm not saying all casuals are bad at gaming, but people bad at it usually presents the excuse "I just want to have fun" or "I had a long day at work, therefore I don't want to work in the game".

TL;DR; The idea is not practical because of the untold truth of the GF: it's there to allow casuals to join content, without the need to socialize or invest resources (time and effort) in the game.

Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.


*edit*
Just to be clear, I'm not using the term "casual" in a derogatory way, but I don't respect casual players in group contexts.

If I decide to relax by playing a game of basketball with friends, I'm expected to:
a) know the rules.
b) be somewhat proficient at the game.
c) be in shape enough to not run out of breath after running 2meters.

If one of these requisites is not respected, I will expect mockery from my peers, because I'm letting my teammates down, and contributing to my team losing the game (not fun).

It's perfectly fine in solo situations, but the moment you step in a group you should realize on your own that it's not just your personal enjoyment that is paramount, but rather completing the objective, which, in turn, will contribute to everyone's enjoyment.

I contef that your argument is misplaced, as the games content varies greatly. By 'cater' I think you're referring to the fact that alot of this game's content is relatively easy, and the vast majority of the casual crowd can complete this content without mucn trouble. (Some vet dungeons and below).

Lazy [snip] and selfish aholes shouldnt be considered amongst the casual playerbase and is insulting as a whole. That's like comparing people who buy vmol skins and cheat to the elite raiding scene.

The context is group dungeons, and specifically the group finder.

By 'cater' I'm referring to the numerous changes (e.g. One Tamriel) made to create easier access to content.

The "vast majority" can't, it looks like, as people are constantly complaining about it. At any given time there's one or more discussion about it.

Saying "casual it's insulting as a whole" doesn't make any sense, unless you provide a specific context, the same way claiming someone's ignorance may be considered an insult. The term itself is not an insult, but the connotation in context make it so.

For instance, saying "You're just a poor ignorant" may be considered an insult because historically it's been used to indicate a lower social status: "General ignorance is common in people of low social status, therefore by accusing you of it I'm implying you're in some way inferior to me, because my social status is higher, as determined by my superior knowledge".

Another example is claiming someone is ignorant in what is considered their field of expertise, that is clearly an attack on their reputation.

But claiming "ignorant is an insult as a whole", of course, is just moronic, because ignorance of an argument simply defines the lack of knowledge of that argument, and claiming someone somehow possess universal ignorance (e.g. Jon Snow) is statistically improbable.

Same way "casual" may be considered an insult if thrown at someone invested in the game (i.e. "You're just a filthy casual") and may consider that as such, because it's defines the lack of investment in it.

I never called casual players "Lazy [snip] and selfish ***", nor I would ever. Playing a game for the sake of spending time is perfectly fine as long as you're doing it on your own. My only contention was regarding group context.

My point about the OP's proposal can be found just above the point you seemed to obsess about, which I only added as clarification exactly to avoid this kind of argument. I guess the joke's on me.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

I thought I made the context clear, but maybe not. Regardless, it does happen but not like its perpetuated in the forums. Try playing the game for a while and you'll see for yourself that most groups can generally do just fine on the vast majority of the game's content. Save for maybe some vet dlc dungeons and trials. Even the 2 newest dungeons (I just got back from a 4 month eso break, so I literally just got to try them).

The filthy casual and toxic elitests scenes in game are far different than what a tiny community of regular posters and habitual crybabies make it look like.

Most everyone in the 'toxic elitest' groups have no qualms carrying casuals from time to time and are fairly fun to run with. Most of the casuals in the game are perfectly capable of understanding mechanics and clearing standard content.

And finally, to reiterate because apperantly it wasn't readily digestible on my previous attempt:

Comparing the useless maggots that enter a group instance with no effort to help either the group, or themselves to a casual player is an insult. Much the same way it is to compare cheaters and moneycarries (people who bought vmol/hof/vma achievements) to the serious endgame pve scene.

I'm confused.

See, on one hand, I understand that 4 different communities exists, so your experience may be different from mine (I play in PC-EU), but, no, I don't agree with you, that is not my experience.

On the other hand you're making no effort whatsoever to understand my point, but rather just repeat it the same thing, the same way, in hope that it will gain importance the more you repeat it.

I never called casual players "filthy" (except for clarification), nor mentioned "toxic elites". Not sure where all that is coming from, but you either misunderstood my point completely or just trying to bait me into something I'm not really interested in discussing.

You can clear content -> You have spent a small portion of your time to understand how the game work and gain proficiency -> You're invested in it -> You're not a casual.

As for this:

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Much the same way it is to compare cheaters and moneycarries (people who bought vmol/hof/vma achievements) to the serious endgame pve scene.

Sorry mate, I'm calling strawman.

BTW, how do you buy vma achievements ? Is that even possible ?


[Edited for quotes]

hydrocynus

you all seem to be fighting with me because i put out an idea.

I was hoping that others would say - "not quite but maybe this", but it seems the majority just want to argue.

Pity.

kylewwefan

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I'll say it again. I can do 34k DPS and 15k HPS at the same time. It doesn't matter what I queue as, if you can't do your job, you are the issue. L2P

If your doing 34k dps and 15k HPS, im going to LET you carry me through a dungeon. Im going to be sitting on your shoulder yelling at the mobs like baby groot.

I do 5k dps max but i just got into cp levels. I dont even having matching gear, or gear thats all the same level. Some of my gear is 10 levels old. And i dont get all bothered about trying to max my DPS and i likely never will. So if we are in group together you are probably going to carry me. Im still going to attempt to help, but if im only doing 10% of total damage, im not going to get upset about it.

In some groups i put out 40-50% of the dps, I dont get upset about that either. I honestly dont think high levels should be grouped with low levels. I dont like playing with high level players in my groups. Id rather do dungeons with groups around my level and not have to deal with elitist bitter vets with superiority and god complexes while im trying to have fun and relax.

And i will learn to play, just maybe not L2P your way. ( Yes that elitist L2P saying rubs me the wrong way, its a game. Take life seriously, not a video game.)

You don’t understand. In normal dungeons you’re fine. The content can get completed. Vet dungeon aren’t like that. Even the easier Vet dungeons can be miserable without proper roles. Everyone already gets a buff using the group finder, this thread is about modifying it further to the support roles.

Ep1kMalware

Aisle9 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Fun fact

Having a game cater to casual players, then complaining about casual players joining the game's content is not necessarily in the realm of reasonable conversation.

If you join for a Pug, you assume your fellow puglets may be awesome players, or awful players.

It doesn't matter how many restrictions you put in the grouping tool.

You don't like the puglets you got, leave, try again.

Politely ask to be kicked, go afk if they refuse, so they will eventually votekick you, and you won't get the debuff, otherwise suck it up, leave the group, wait 10 minutes.

Also, concerning your OP:

bonus to resistances is useless, as real tanks already are close to resistance caps, therefore it would only help fake tanks. 50% damage debuff, for a DD pushing 40k is still 20k. For a DD reaching 30k - > 15k.

Average tanks pull anywhere between 3 to 5k, really active tanks, with specialized builds can reach 9 - 10k.

Also, tanks that rely on heavy attacks to sustain will get the shaft.

50% damage debuff to healers will mean heavy attacks will restore less magicka, while 10% more healing done is pretty much useless, as you can't heal more than max HP, while you still can't [reliably] outheal oneshots, therefore dedicated healers won't notice it in the slightest, while healers that rely on damage (e.g. NB healers) will get shafted.

as for the 10% to max stat + 10% damage to DDs... sure, sounds fun, I always wanted to get a 70k single target parse in a dungeon.

But, no, I'm against it, not really for the buffs and debuffs, but simply because I believe the GF is a lame horse, beyond saving, and we should just let it die. Then a proper matchmaking tool can be designed. The reason why this won't happen is because of how I started the reply:

The game is catering to casual players, therefore you need to be able to let them reach content, even if it's by technically cheating.

And I'm using the term casual as in player that is not invested in the game, but rather just want to kill time. I know it's probably reductive, but that roughly translate in "that guy spamming light attacks in the corner with the bow" or "the fake tank with the greatsword". I'm not saying all casuals are bad at gaming, but people bad at it usually presents the excuse "I just want to have fun" or "I had a long day at work, therefore I don't want to work in the game".

TL;DR; The idea is not practical because of the untold truth of the GF: it's there to allow casuals to join content, without the need to socialize or invest resources (time and effort) in the game.

Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.


*edit*
Just to be clear, I'm not using the term "casual" in a derogatory way, but I don't respect casual players in group contexts.

If I decide to relax by playing a game of basketball with friends, I'm expected to:
a) know the rules.
b) be somewhat proficient at the game.
c) be in shape enough to not run out of breath after running 2meters.

If one of these requisites is not respected, I will expect mockery from my peers, because I'm letting my teammates down, and contributing to my team losing the game (not fun).

It's perfectly fine in solo situations, but the moment you step in a group you should realize on your own that it's not just your personal enjoyment that is paramount, but rather completing the objective, which, in turn, will contribute to everyone's enjoyment.

I contef that your argument is misplaced, as the games content varies greatly. By 'cater' I think you're referring to the fact that alot of this game's content is relatively easy, and the vast majority of the casual crowd can complete this content without mucn trouble. (Some vet dungeons and below).

Lazy [snip] and selfish aholes shouldnt be considered amongst the casual playerbase and is insulting as a whole. That's like comparing people who buy vmol skins and cheat to the elite raiding scene.

The context is group dungeons, and specifically the group finder.

By 'cater' I'm referring to the numerous changes (e.g. One Tamriel) made to create easier access to content.

The "vast majority" can't, it looks like, as people are constantly complaining about it. At any given time there's one or more discussion about it.

Saying "casual it's insulting as a whole" doesn't make any sense, unless you provide a specific context, the same way claiming someone's ignorance may be considered an insult. The term itself is not an insult, but the connotation in context make it so.

For instance, saying "You're just a poor ignorant" may be considered an insult because historically it's been used to indicate a lower social status: "General ignorance is common in people of low social status, therefore by accusing you of it I'm implying you're in some way inferior to me, because my social status is higher, as determined by my superior knowledge".

Another example is claiming someone is ignorant in what is considered their field of expertise, that is clearly an attack on their reputation.

But claiming "ignorant is an insult as a whole", of course, is just moronic, because ignorance of an argument simply defines the lack of knowledge of that argument, and claiming someone somehow possess universal ignorance (e.g. Jon Snow) is statistically improbable.

Same way "casual" may be considered an insult if thrown at someone invested in the game (i.e. "You're just a filthy casual") and may consider that as such, because it's defines the lack of investment in it.

I never called casual players "Lazy [snip] and selfish ***", nor I would ever. Playing a game for the sake of spending time is perfectly fine as long as you're doing it on your own. My only contention was regarding group context.

My point about the OP's proposal can be found just above the point you seemed to obsess about, which I only added as clarification exactly to avoid this kind of argument. I guess the joke's on me.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

I thought I made the context clear, but maybe not. Regardless, it does happen but not like its perpetuated in the forums. Try playing the game for a while and you'll see for yourself that most groups can generally do just fine on the vast majority of the game's content. Save for maybe some vet dlc dungeons and trials. Even the 2 newest dungeons (I just got back from a 4 month eso break, so I literally just got to try them).

The filthy casual and toxic elitests scenes in game are far different than what a tiny community of regular posters and habitual crybabies make it look like.

Most everyone in the 'toxic elitest' groups have no qualms carrying casuals from time to time and are fairly fun to run with. Most of the casuals in the game are perfectly capable of understanding mechanics and clearing standard content.

And finally, to reiterate because apperantly it wasn't readily digestible on my previous attempt:

Comparing the useless maggots that enter a group instance with no effort to help either the group, or themselves to a casual player is an insult. Much the same way it is to compare cheaters and moneycarries (people who bought vmol/hof/vma achievements) to the serious endgame pve scene.

I'm confused.

See, on one hand, I understand that 4 different communities exists, so your experience may be different from mine (I play in PC-EU), but, no, I don't agree with you, that is not my experience.

On the other hand you're making no effort whatsoever to understand my point, but rather just repeat it the same thing, the same way, in hope that it will gain importance the more you repeat it.

I never called casual players "filthy" (except for clarification), nor mentioned "toxic elites". Not sure where all that is coming from, but you either misunderstood my point completely or just trying to bait me into something I'm not really interested in discussing.

You can clear content -> You have spent a small portion of your time to understand how the game work and gain proficiency -> You're invested in it -> You're not a casual.

As for this:

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Much the same way it is to compare cheaters and moneycarries (people who bought vmol/hof/vma achievements) to the serious endgame pve scene.

Sorry mate, I'm calling strawman.

BTW, how do you buy vma achievements ? Is that even possible ?

R u srs rn?
Idk what it's like on pc-eu but ps4-na most pugs are typically decent. As well, filthy casuals and toxic elists are the terms alot of forum warriors are using. Something about a vocal minority (forums) giving no reflection to the silent majority (people who actually play eso).

And yes, you can buy those achievements from pve guilds. Vmol skin is like 2m and can be done in 20 minutes.

[Edited for quotes]

Ep1kMalware

most vma achievements are sold via the shareplay option. It's like a remote view feature for ps4 but you can opt to let me takemover the controls and you watch me play for you.

Integral1900

Most players want to dps, not tank, and certainly not heal. Until you find a way to make these roles appeal to destruction minded players you will never ever fix the issue

phileunderx2

For me queing as a dps means I will have to do the dungeon solo because it never pops for me if I que as a dps. Waited 2 hrs a couple of weeks ago for tempest island on my sorc. Never popped so finally just went in with my clanifer tank and solo led it. So there are many people out there that cannot get in a group as a dps.

Soleya

hydrocynus wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I am not proposing a system to get more people interested as queueing as tanks or healers.

I am proposing a system to get less people to queue as tanks or healers when they are in fact not tanks or healers.

There is already a solution to fake tanks. It's called "Vote to kick" it gives them a 15 minute penalty to group finder.

Skua

I honestly really like random normal dungeons because I never know what I'm going to get, it adds to the fun for me to adapt my play-style to fill any gaps. Sometimes I get super cute new players and other times groups that know exactly what they are doing. Or the random group with the guy that charges in and starts swinging at everything and running around. They're all fun because they keep the dungeon from being exactly the same.

I wish there was a button I could click to ignore roles actually because I would use it on normals since I have gotten some of those 30+ minute que times and usually just end up going and doing something else. I would not like something that reduced DPS depending on role because sometimes I que with some DPS friends on purpose because we want to play together and are fine without a real healer or tank on normal. I wouldn't mind buffs though those are always nice.

Ajitator

phileunderx2 wrote: »

For me queing as a dps means I will have to do the dungeon solo because it never pops for me if I que as a dps. Waited 2 hrs a couple of weeks ago for tempest island on my sorc. Never popped so finally just went in with my clanifer tank and solo led it. So there are many people out there that cannot get in a group as a dps.

If you're queuing for a random obscure dungeon that's not the daily you're going to wait a long time for a full group to queue for it.. How does that not make sense to you?

Ajitator

Soleya wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I am not proposing a system to get more people interested as queueing as tanks or healers.

I am proposing a system to get less people to queue as tanks or healers when they are in fact not tanks or healers.

There is already a solution to fake tanks. It's called "Vote to kick" it gives them a 15 minute penalty to group finder.

Too many people accept it as part of the game at this point. As I said in my earlier post when I try to kick people for cross-role queueing it often fails because "it's just <dungeon-name>, don't be a noob"

We need far more people willing to kick those that aren't properly queueing. Rather than just pushing through it because you can.

zaria

Mauin wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

I am not proposing a system to get more people interested as queueing as tanks or healers.

I am proposing a system to get less people to queue as tanks or healers when they are in fact not tanks or healers.

Problem is, your proposed system also punishes legitimate tanks and healers.

Sorry, but if ZOS actually implemented such a thing, I would stop doing PUG dungeons entirely. I don't care for any further buffs or debuffs. Any damage reduction in a PUG group is a bad thing. 50% or 5%, I wouldn't accept that.

The vast majority of PUGs I seem to get into have low group DPS. Of those, the worst of the bunch have my tanks (who might do 3-5k DPS at best) doing over 75% of the total damage. Reduce the damage of my tanks any further and those low DPS PUGs will take even longer to complete, if they complete at all.

Just last night, we were doing randoms and couldn't get a fourth from guild. For the first one, we queued with a tank, healer, and DPS. The dungeon was Direfrost Keep and before we even got to the first boss... The tank said we were going to need my healer to DPS. And so I found myself healing and DPSing the dungeon using only lightning blockade and funnel health. Nobody died, the fights didn't take 5 minutes, and we were all happy. Reduce my healer's damage and that wouldn't have happened.

This, an healer in an dungeon pretty much count as 1/3-1/2 DD outside of fights who require lots of healing.
Kind of has two gears for dungeons, one is normal dungeon with more focus on damage the other is for heavy healing

Dungeons tend to fail because of idiotic low dps, or because people don't handle mechanics and is don't want to discuss them. Interesting its the low dps groups who is also unwilling to discuss tactic.
For harder vet dungeons with wrong setup: vDS2 with fake healer or vBC2 with fake tank I would request vote kick or leave after first trash unless dps was very very good.

Eiagra

No thanks. I'm a hybrid healer/DPS and can perform both roles fairly well (if not as well on damage as someone purely focused on it). I should not be penalized for having the Healer tag on and nuke my DPS when I'm expected to provide supplementary damage if I'm not healing. Also, I shouldn't have to rely on the DPS to save me if I'm getting mobbed, just because I'm playing nurse.

You're proposing penalties. No one likes penalties. Penalties are not a way to resolve the problem.

idk

Ajitator wrote: »

Tenn60 wrote: »

To be honest most vet dungeons, minus dlc ones, can be done without a tank and healer, and 90% of the community that uses group finder just wants to get through the dungeon as fast as possible. Join a guild or find people to run with if you want to have correct roles. 3 dps and a tank/healer or in most cases 4 dps will help you burn through dungeons quicker than a proper group.

No, Just No,..You sir are part of the problem.

If you want to ignore roles and rip through a dungeon with 3 DPS YOU should be the one getting a guild and running that with your friends or guildies. The point of the group finder is for the people who don't have those readily available.

I have no control over the 3 other members that show up in my random daily. I expect that the group is full of players doing their role. I don't care if you put out 3k dps or 30k dps so long as you queue as a DPS we can get through the dungeon ( with a few "dps race" dungeons excluded ).

@Ajitator

I used to queue as a tank for random vets in GF. Would you like to know why I do not queue like that anymore?

Ep1kMalware

idk wrote: »

Ajitator wrote: »

Tenn60 wrote: »

To be honest most vet dungeons, minus dlc ones, can be done without a tank and healer, and 90% of the community that uses group finder just wants to get through the dungeon as fast as possible. Join a guild or find people to run with if you want to have correct roles. 3 dps and a tank/healer or in most cases 4 dps will help you burn through dungeons quicker than a proper group.

No, Just No,..You sir are part of the problem.

If you want to ignore roles and rip through a dungeon with 3 DPS YOU should be the one getting a guild and running that with your friends or guildies. The point of the group finder is for the people who don't have those readily available.

I have no control over the 3 other members that show up in my random daily. I expect that the group is full of players doing their role. I don't care if you put out 3k dps or 30k dps so long as you queue as a DPS we can get through the dungeon ( with a few "dps race" dungeons excluded ).

@Ajitator

I used to queue as a tank for random vets in GF. Would you like to know why I do not queue like that anymore?

I used to as well, I'd take a guess or too.

Aisle9

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Fun fact

Having a game cater to casual players, then complaining about casual players joining the game's content is not necessarily in the realm of reasonable conversation.

If you join for a Pug, you assume your fellow puglets may be awesome players, or awful players.

It doesn't matter how many restrictions you put in the grouping tool.

You don't like the puglets you got, leave, try again.

Politely ask to be kicked, go afk if they refuse, so they will eventually votekick you, and you won't get the debuff, otherwise suck it up, leave the group, wait 10 minutes.

Also, concerning your OP:

bonus to resistances is useless, as real tanks already are close to resistance caps, therefore it would only help fake tanks. 50% damage debuff, for a DD pushing 40k is still 20k. For a DD reaching 30k - > 15k.

Average tanks pull anywhere between 3 to 5k, really active tanks, with specialized builds can reach 9 - 10k.

Also, tanks that rely on heavy attacks to sustain will get the shaft.

50% damage debuff to healers will mean heavy attacks will restore less magicka, while 10% more healing done is pretty much useless, as you can't heal more than max HP, while you still can't [reliably] outheal oneshots, therefore dedicated healers won't notice it in the slightest, while healers that rely on damage (e.g. NB healers) will get shafted.

as for the 10% to max stat + 10% damage to DDs... sure, sounds fun, I always wanted to get a 70k single target parse in a dungeon.

But, no, I'm against it, not really for the buffs and debuffs, but simply because I believe the GF is a lame horse, beyond saving, and we should just let it die. Then a proper matchmaking tool can be designed. The reason why this won't happen is because of how I started the reply:

The game is catering to casual players, therefore you need to be able to let them reach content, even if it's by technically cheating.

And I'm using the term casual as in player that is not invested in the game, but rather just want to kill time. I know it's probably reductive, but that roughly translate in "that guy spamming light attacks in the corner with the bow" or "the fake tank with the greatsword". I'm not saying all casuals are bad at gaming, but people bad at it usually presents the excuse "I just want to have fun" or "I had a long day at work, therefore I don't want to work in the game".

TL;DR; The idea is not practical because of the untold truth of the GF: it's there to allow casuals to join content, without the need to socialize or invest resources (time and effort) in the game.

Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.


*edit*
Just to be clear, I'm not using the term "casual" in a derogatory way, but I don't respect casual players in group contexts.

If I decide to relax by playing a game of basketball with friends, I'm expected to:
a) know the rules.
b) be somewhat proficient at the game.
c) be in shape enough to not run out of breath after running 2meters.

If one of these requisites is not respected, I will expect mockery from my peers, because I'm letting my teammates down, and contributing to my team losing the game (not fun).

It's perfectly fine in solo situations, but the moment you step in a group you should realize on your own that it's not just your personal enjoyment that is paramount, but rather completing the objective, which, in turn, will contribute to everyone's enjoyment.

I contef that your argument is misplaced, as the games content varies greatly. By 'cater' I think you're referring to the fact that alot of this game's content is relatively easy, and the vast majority of the casual crowd can complete this content without mucn trouble. (Some vet dungeons and below).

Lazy [snip] and selfish aholes shouldnt be considered amongst the casual playerbase and is insulting as a whole. That's like comparing people who buy vmol skins and cheat to the elite raiding scene.

The context is group dungeons, and specifically the group finder.

By 'cater' I'm referring to the numerous changes (e.g. One Tamriel) made to create easier access to content.

The "vast majority" can't, it looks like, as people are constantly complaining about it. At any given time there's one or more discussion about it.

Saying "casual it's insulting as a whole" doesn't make any sense, unless you provide a specific context, the same way claiming someone's ignorance may be considered an insult. The term itself is not an insult, but the connotation in context make it so.

For instance, saying "You're just a poor ignorant" may be considered an insult because historically it's been used to indicate a lower social status: "General ignorance is common in people of low social status, therefore by accusing you of it I'm implying you're in some way inferior to me, because my social status is higher, as determined by my superior knowledge".

Another example is claiming someone is ignorant in what is considered their field of expertise, that is clearly an attack on their reputation.

But claiming "ignorant is an insult as a whole", of course, is just moronic, because ignorance of an argument simply defines the lack of knowledge of that argument, and claiming someone somehow possess universal ignorance (e.g. Jon Snow) is statistically improbable.

Same way "casual" may be considered an insult if thrown at someone invested in the game (i.e. "You're just a filthy casual") and may consider that as such, because it's defines the lack of investment in it.

I never called casual players "Lazy [snip] and selfish ***", nor I would ever. Playing a game for the sake of spending time is perfectly fine as long as you're doing it on your own. My only contention was regarding group context.

My point about the OP's proposal can be found just above the point you seemed to obsess about, which I only added as clarification exactly to avoid this kind of argument. I guess the joke's on me.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

I thought I made the context clear, but maybe not. Regardless, it does happen but not like its perpetuated in the forums. Try playing the game for a while and you'll see for yourself that most groups can generally do just fine on the vast majority of the game's content. Save for maybe some vet dlc dungeons and trials. Even the 2 newest dungeons (I just got back from a 4 month eso break, so I literally just got to try them).

The filthy casual and toxic elitests scenes in game are far different than what a tiny community of regular posters and habitual crybabies make it look like.

Most everyone in the 'toxic elitest' groups have no qualms carrying casuals from time to time and are fairly fun to run with. Most of the casuals in the game are perfectly capable of understanding mechanics and clearing standard content.

And finally, to reiterate because apperantly it wasn't readily digestible on my previous attempt:

Comparing the useless maggots that enter a group instance with no effort to help either the group, or themselves to a casual player is an insult. Much the same way it is to compare cheaters and moneycarries (people who bought vmol/hof/vma achievements) to the serious endgame pve scene.

I'm confused.

See, on one hand, I understand that 4 different communities exists, so your experience may be different from mine (I play in PC-EU), but, no, I don't agree with you, that is not my experience.

On the other hand you're making no effort whatsoever to understand my point, but rather just repeat it the same thing, the same way, in hope that it will gain importance the more you repeat it.

I never called casual players "filthy" (except for clarification), nor mentioned "toxic elites". Not sure where all that is coming from, but you either misunderstood my point completely or just trying to bait me into something I'm not really interested in discussing.

You can clear content -> You have spent a small portion of your time to understand how the game work and gain proficiency -> You're invested in it -> You're not a casual.

As for this:

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Much the same way it is to compare cheaters and moneycarries (people who bought vmol/hof/vma achievements) to the serious endgame pve scene.

Sorry mate, I'm calling strawman.

BTW, how do you buy vma achievements ? Is that even possible ?

R u srs rn?
Idk what it's like on pc-eu but ps4-na most pugs are typically decent. As well, filthy casuals and toxic elists are the terms alot of forum warriors are using. Something about a vocal minority (forums) giving no reflection to the silent majority (people who actually play eso).

And yes, you can buy those achievements from pve guilds. Vmol skin is like 2m and can be done in 20 minutes.

As I suspected.

No, PC (fairly sure it's PC-NA as well, but I may be wrong) it's usually 50/50 chance. You can get the exceptionally good ones, the really really bad ones, and a large variety of meh. This is my experience, at least, but I geared up 7 alts after my main, and all of them have max undaunted and the right monster shoulder in the right trait (before transmutation). I'm not saying it's 100% reflective of the reality, but it's not nothing.

I wish I was kidding. I could tell you about that time we wiped at Ash Titan in NORMAL CoA2 with me doing 70% of the group's dps on top of healing and ressing, and I'm not even talking about cp50, the group was ranging from cp400 to cp800.

It's bad.

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

most vma achievements are sold via the shareplay option. It's like a remote view feature for ps4 but you can opt to let me takemover the controls and you watch me play for you.

I knew you could buy vMoL and vAS /carry for the skin, but I didn't know about vMA.

[Edited for quote]

mague

idk wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

One would have to look at the reason the many tanks and many who can tank as a normal tank do not join the GF. Far to often the dps is low and the dungeon takes a long time as a result. It is just easier to form a group from the guild and know the run will go well..

I dont mind if a dungeon takes more time as long as everyone has fun. But the mob mechanics dont match tank mechanics and therefor are not fun to tank. Healing is better but not in a rushing group.

Make Inner Fire 28m AoE taunt and suddenly tanking and healing is more fun and the low dps DD's will be acceptable too.

Silver_Strider

Honestly, make the Undaunted Pledge have a legit, multi phase tutorial that gives you a basic run down of exactly what is expected of you as a Tank/DPS/Healer with easy to understand instructions. Open up all Undaunted Skills during said tutorial so that it would provide players a chance to familiarize themselves with some concepts, such as synergies, taunts, etc.

Basics:
For Tanks, you are given a basic run down on Taunts.
For DPS, you need to kill a target (5k minimal DPS required)
For Healers, you are given targets to heal.

Intermediate:
For Tanks, they need to learn to CC targets (turning Trapping Webs into an AoE CC ability would be a boon to tanks everywhere)
For DPS, kill multiple targets within an allotted time (8k DPS minimal required)
For Healers, keeping HoTs up.

Expert:
For Tanks, survive an onslaught of enemies while keeping enemies from killing your allies.
For DPS, kill a boss enemy and its adds before it kills your team. (10k minimal DPS required)
For Healers, keep buffs up and allies alive for a set duration.

Have this tutorial give out an achievement for that specific role. Have this achievement tied into a dungeon lock out system that will prevent you from queuing up as that role until you unlock the achievement (A bit harsh but if it helps to limit fakes, I'l gladly take a few minutes to earn my position). Absolute worst case scenario, Duty Finder dies since no one will do the tutorial. Best case scenario, you have tanks that at least know the basics of tanking and can pull aggro, DPS capable of pulling minimal 10k DPS a piece, and healers that knows what a healing ability is.

No, it's not a perfect system. People will just unlock all achievements in about 10 minutes and continue doing what they're currently doing, being the best fake tanks/DPS/Healers they can be but at least it would deter some people at the end of the day, that's all ZOS can really do at this point.

hydrocynus

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Honestly, make the Undaunted Pledge have a legit, multi phase tutorial that gives you a basic run down of exactly what is expected of you as a Tank/DPS/Healer with easy to understand instructions. Open up all Undaunted Skills during said tutorial so that it would provide players a chance to familiarize themselves with some concepts, such as synergies, taunts, etc.

Basics:
For Tanks, you are given a basic run down on Taunts.
For DPS, you need to kill a target (5k minimal DPS required)
For Healers, you are given targets to heal.

Intermediate:
For Tanks, they need to learn to CC targets (turning Trapping Webs into an AoE CC ability would be a boon to tanks everywhere)
For DPS, kill multiple targets within an allotted time (8k DPS minimal required)
For Healers, keeping HoTs up.

Expert:
For Tanks, survive an onslaught of enemies while keeping enemies from killing your allies.
For DPS, kill a boss enemy and its adds before it kills your team. (10k minimal DPS required)
For Healers, keep buffs up and allies alive for a set duration.

Have this tutorial give out an achievement for that specific role. Have this achievement tied into a dungeon lock out system that will prevent you from queuing up as that role until you unlock the achievement (A bit harsh but if it helps to limit fakes, I'l gladly take a few minutes to earn my position). Absolute worst case scenario, Duty Finder dies since no one will do the tutorial. Best case scenario, you have tanks that at least know the basics of tanking and can pull aggro, DPS capable of pulling minimal 10k DPS a piece, and healers that knows what a healing ability is.

No, it's not a perfect system. People will just unlock all achievements in about 10 minutes and continue doing what they're currently doing, being the best fake tanks/DPS/Healers they can be but at least it would deter some people at the end of the day, that's all ZOS can really do at this point.

I think this is actually better than my idea! (And I bet I am the first person to say that on these forums ever!!!!

In my opinion if you have a toon that you have been able to "certify" as a tank then I think that I am happy to have him queue as tank.

At the very least you know there is a certain level of understanding of the role and if forced to can play the role.

I agree it's not perfect but I would love to see this. Same as you need to be certified for writs.

hydrocynus

And In addition you can add the "button cos I don't care way roles I group with" option for those that don't mind and have 2 different group finder queues.

Aisle9

hydrocynus wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Honestly, make the Undaunted Pledge have a legit, multi phase tutorial that gives you a basic run down of exactly what is expected of you as a Tank/DPS/Healer with easy to understand instructions. Open up all Undaunted Skills during said tutorial so that it would provide players a chance to familiarize themselves with some concepts, such as synergies, taunts, etc.

Basics:
For Tanks, you are given a basic run down on Taunts.
For DPS, you need to kill a target (5k minimal DPS required)
For Healers, you are given targets to heal.

Intermediate:
For Tanks, they need to learn to CC targets (turning Trapping Webs into an AoE CC ability would be a boon to tanks everywhere)
For DPS, kill multiple targets within an allotted time (8k DPS minimal required)
For Healers, keeping HoTs up.

Expert:
For Tanks, survive an onslaught of enemies while keeping enemies from killing your allies.
For DPS, kill a boss enemy and its adds before it kills your team. (10k minimal DPS required)
For Healers, keep buffs up and allies alive for a set duration.

Have this tutorial give out an achievement for that specific role. Have this achievement tied into a dungeon lock out system that will prevent you from queuing up as that role until you unlock the achievement (A bit harsh but if it helps to limit fakes, I'l gladly take a few minutes to earn my position). Absolute worst case scenario, Duty Finder dies since no one will do the tutorial. Best case scenario, you have tanks that at least know the basics of tanking and can pull aggro, DPS capable of pulling minimal 10k DPS a piece, and healers that knows what a healing ability is.

No, it's not a perfect system. People will just unlock all achievements in about 10 minutes and continue doing what they're currently doing, being the best fake tanks/DPS/Healers they can be but at least it would deter some people at the end of the day, that's all ZOS can really do at this point.

I think this is actually better than my idea! (And I bet I am the first person to say that on these forums ever!!!!

In my opinion if you have a toon that you have been able to "certify" as a tank then I think that I am happy to have him queue as tank.

At the very least you know there is a certain level of understanding of the role and if forced to can play the role.

I agree it's not perfect but I would love to see this. Same as you need to be certified for writs.

Yeah, many games have that.

It also helps as an intro to harder content, since people often complained about the difficulty ramp and the fact that some mechanics are not properly explained.

That would probably help in some way, yeah.

Linaleah

WoW used to have this sort of "must certify in a role before being able to queue up for that role" system for couple of years. personaly.. I loved it. I loved it so much. it actualy made pugging hardmode dungeons easier then normal mode. but people complained. something something waste of time or other. and with the next expansion, Blizzard made it optional rather then mandatory. I miss it being mandatory, even if you had to pass the test on every single alt.

that said. the simplest, easiest solution IMO is to increase the number of dps in a group to 3. this way, dps queues should get a little shorter, removing some of the incentive to queue up in a wrong role.

but.. I also don't care if someone queues up as a tank or healer, but not fully specced into it. as long as they don't die if trash mob breathes at them wrong and can taunt the boss to keep them steady in everyone's AoE, or have a heal or 2 slotted so that other dps are not forced into full on self healing? I don't care.

Aurielle

To be perfectly frank, fake damage dealers are WAY more of an impediment to the group than fake healers or fake tanks (when we're talking about normals and non-DLC vets, that is -- vet DLCs are a different story). If I'm DPSing on my sorc and the healer or tank's not up to snuff, then I just make sure to keep my shields up. If it's ESPECIALLY bad, I'll swap my volatile familiar out for my twilight matriarch and keep things going. Might even throw out some shards if need be.

Bad DPS, though? Bad DPS will ruin your run every time if you're on your pure tank or healer build. I don't care so much if they're low levels or low CP. But if you're 300+ CP and you're spamming heavy attacks like they're going out of style? Then you need to learn how to freaking deal damage. I have a story to tell about the (eventually successful) WGT run I did last night on my tank that's the stuff of nightmares... I'm still a little traumatized, though, so I don't think I can revisit those memories just yet. All I will say is this: try running WGT with a CP 550ish "damage dealer" who endlessly spams 2H heavy attacks (with jabs occasionally thrown in, for good measure) and who apparently can't figure out that it's bad to stand in blue fire and lightning.

Also, if I got a 50% damage reduction debuff for queuing as a tank or healer? I would not have completed the above-mentioned nightmare run if that had been the case, as I ended up having to solo Molag Kena to finish her off. I haven't checked on a dummy, but my tank maybe does 6-7k DPS, tops. Probably less than that.

Inarre

hydrocynus wrote: »

IiIHusHIiI wrote: »

what about waiting 20+ min as DPS to join a Random ??? My tank and healer Find a Group Faster thn my Brain Sending Commands to my hand

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

punish tanks and healers, i love it

That is not the idea. The idea is to reward them for the roles they are grouping at and limit them in other roles. As a group, the increase in DPS buff will balance the loss in damage from the tank and healer.

In theory, maybe, but 10% more of 10k dps does not make up for the 50% nerf to my 30k dps as a healer in failing pugs. Not even x2.

hydrocynus

Inarre wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

IiIHusHIiI wrote: »

what about waiting 20+ min as DPS to join a Random ??? My tank and healer Find a Group Faster thn my Brain Sending Commands to my hand

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

punish tanks and healers, i love it

That is not the idea. The idea is to reward them for the roles they are grouping at and limit them in other roles. As a group, the increase in DPS buff will balance the loss in damage from the tank and healer.

In theory, maybe, but 10% more of 10k dps does not make up for the 50% nerf to my 30k dps as a healer in failing pugs. Not even x2.

You are 100% correct which is why I keep saying please don't judge my numbers. They are just as an example. I didn't do any proper maths to see what would be required for balance.

Inarre

hydrocynus wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

IiIHusHIiI wrote: »

what about waiting 20+ min as DPS to join a Random ??? My tank and healer Find a Group Faster thn my Brain Sending Commands to my hand

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

punish tanks and healers, i love it

That is not the idea. The idea is to reward them for the roles they are grouping at and limit them in other roles. As a group, the increase in DPS buff will balance the loss in damage from the tank and healer.

In theory, maybe, but 10% more of 10k dps does not make up for the 50% nerf to my 30k dps as a healer in failing pugs. Not even x2.

You are 100% correct which is why I keep saying please don't judge my numbers. They are just as an example. I didn't do any proper maths to see what would be required for balance.

The point is, you can't balance those type of blanket nerfs/buffs when the quality of roles you get in pick up groups vary so widely unless you are standardizing the amount of damage/healing done by each role in the first place.

Ajitator

idk wrote: »

Ajitator wrote: »

Tenn60 wrote: »

To be honest most vet dungeons, minus dlc ones, can be done without a tank and healer, and 90% of the community that uses group finder just wants to get through the dungeon as fast as possible. Join a guild or find people to run with if you want to have correct roles. 3 dps and a tank/healer or in most cases 4 dps will help you burn through dungeons quicker than a proper group.

No, Just No,..You sir are part of the problem.

If you want to ignore roles and rip through a dungeon with 3 DPS YOU should be the one getting a guild and running that with your friends or guildies. The point of the group finder is for the people who don't have those readily available.

I have no control over the 3 other members that show up in my random daily. I expect that the group is full of players doing their role. I don't care if you put out 3k dps or 30k dps so long as you queue as a DPS we can get through the dungeon ( with a few "dps race" dungeons excluded ).

@Ajitator

I used to queue as a tank for random vets in GF. Would you like to know why I do not queue like that anymore?

Can't tell if...