Potential Solution for Fake Tanks/Healers in Grouping tool

LadyNalcarya

I dont think that damage reduction is a good idea.
Group finder is notorious for dds with nonexistant dps, and with your proposed idea a healer that is brave enough to q alone wont be able to help his or her group.
And I seriously doubt that it would affect dds that q as tanks and healers since those dds are unlikely to have good dps (or even care about it).

kylewwefan

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I Tank group finder randoms all the time. On a proper tank. It’s always a risk getting low damage groups. This proposal would be somewhat a buff to support roles and a decent deterrent to fakers.

Ep1kMalware

Huyen wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I don't think this would stop people queuing as the wrong thing. Honestly.

People that do it just want to get in the queue fast. And this penalties will only make the dungeon take longer, making the problem worse.

Fake Tanks / Healers are onLy a problem if it impacts the groups. On a normal dungeon it hardly matters and in fact 4 DPS will burn thru most mechanics so quick it doesn't matter.

Hard vet content it can cause a problem, but again it depends on the calibre of player. CP690 players can pull it all off. I did a PIG Mazzatun the other night. 4 DPS, one had a frost staff to taunt, one Sorc switched his scamp for a twilight. Did we die yes, ut did we get Vet/Hard Mode done YES.

If their DPS had been hampered we would have failed.

The bigger issue in particular in Normal dungeons is bad DPS. You can solo normal dungeons. Thus one or two good dps is all you need rest is surplus.

The amount of time my healer has joined dungeons and as he's a sorc DPS have said "you better not be a fake healer, we kicked the last one" to then watch the DPS spam light attacks, not block or ward or get out of the red and make it a hard for themselves. Still got it done, but honestly poor DPS is the biggest issue in normal dungeons failing.

I've only seen that by playing all roles

The things you sum up in this post are just rubbish. It only applies to decent end-game players who know what they are doing (note: not all cp690 are instantly good players). What about the 70% new / casual players that dont care about meta's and stuff?

Simple solution: reward the people who run dungeons as healer and tanks (dedicated, not the wanna-be that slot a taunt or a heal) with extra gold or mats or something. Worked wonders in WoW, should work wonders here too. System is simple: the reward is given to players who tank / heal when there is a certain shortage determined by the system.

Another problem is the amount of salt towards players who tank or heal. I tanked and healed before, and I got suprised by the lack of respect. If you guys want more tanks and healers in dungeons, then dont go rushing past them, and solo every damn thing you encounter, but give them time to learn the ropes.

It works two ways in this case: make tanks wanted and needed instead of whining there arent enough, when 90% of the dps dont care anyway.

No, what's rubbish are all the new players/casuals that put 0 effort into anything. I love tanking raids and supporting my group. I thoroughly despise watching a lvl 30 and cp 690 sit there and spam light attacks for almost 10 minutes on a boss I could kill by myself in ~20 seconds. AND THEN THERE'S THE WHOLE REST OF THE DUNGEON!

I got *** to do. Things I want to do in this game. Goals I am working toward. If you want to spend the next 6 hours of your life on daily normal dungeons go right on ahead. Alot of people who tank don't do it for the general public. As a tank who is NOT lfg, if you want to offer me incentive to donate MY personal free time to YOUR group, you can start by not wasting it.

Aeslief

I really like that you’re offering suggestions to the fake tank problem but I don’t see this one as working for me.

My healer was built to make significant damage contributions to groups but is very much a legit healer. I run exclusively with my dungeon partner whose tank has even more powerful damage output but is very much a legit tank. Between the two of us we have carried many a lowbie and fake dps through dungeon speed runs without having to be slowed down by the poor performance of other players. I shudder to think how long some of those experiences would have taken if we had to depend on those players to get us through the dungeon.

If tank and healer’s damage output was gimped, I’d probably just stop using my healer in GF. I’d rather take my chances as a dps getting a fake tank than as a healer getting a fake dps.

Aisle9

Fun fact

Having a game cater to casual players, then complaining about casual players joining the game's content is not necessarily in the realm of reasonable conversation.

If you join for a Pug, you assume your fellow puglets may be awesome players, or awful players.

It doesn't matter how many restrictions you put in the grouping tool.

You don't like the puglets you got, leave, try again.

Politely ask to be kicked, go afk if they refuse, so they will eventually votekick you, and you won't get the debuff, otherwise suck it up, leave the group, wait 10 minutes.

Also, concerning your OP:

bonus to resistances is useless, as real tanks already are close to resistance caps, therefore it would only help fake tanks. 50% damage debuff, for a DD pushing 40k is still 20k. For a DD reaching 30k - > 15k.

Average tanks pull anywhere between 3 to 5k, really active tanks, with specialized builds can reach 9 - 10k.

Also, tanks that rely on heavy attacks to sustain will get the shaft.

50% damage debuff to healers will mean heavy attacks will restore less magicka, while 10% more healing done is pretty much useless, as you can't heal more than max HP, while you still can't [reliably] outheal oneshots, therefore dedicated healers won't notice it in the slightest, while healers that rely on damage (e.g. NB healers) will get shafted.

as for the 10% to max stat + 10% damage to DDs... sure, sounds fun, I always wanted to get a 70k single target parse in a dungeon.

But, no, I'm against it, not really for the buffs and debuffs, but simply because I believe the GF is a lame horse, beyond saving, and we should just let it die. Then a proper matchmaking tool can be designed. The reason why this won't happen is because of how I started the reply:

The game is catering to casual players, therefore you need to be able to let them reach content, even if it's by technically cheating.

And I'm using the term casual as in player that is not invested in the game, but rather just want to kill time. I know it's probably reductive, but that roughly translate in "that guy spamming light attacks in the corner with the bow" or "the fake tank with the greatsword". I'm not saying all casuals are bad at gaming, but people bad at it usually presents the excuse "I just want to have fun" or "I had a long day at work, therefore I don't want to work in the game".

TL;DR; The idea is not practical because of the untold truth of the GF: it's there to allow casuals to join content, without the need to socialize or invest resources (time and effort) in the game.

Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.


*edit*
Just to be clear, I'm not using the term "casual" in a derogatory way, but I don't respect casual players in group contexts.

If I decide to relax by playing a game of basketball with friends, I'm expected to:
a) know the rules.
b) be somewhat proficient at the game.
c) be in shape enough to not run out of breath after running 2meters.

If one of these requisites is not respected, I will expect mockery from my peers, because I'm letting my teammates down, and contributing to my team losing the game (not fun).

It's perfectly fine in solo situations, but the moment you step in a group you should realize on your own that it's not just your personal enjoyment that is paramount, but rather completing the objective, which, in turn, will contribute to everyone's enjoyment.

hydrocynus

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I am not proposing a system to get more people interested as queueing as tanks or healers.

I am proposing a system to get less people to queue as tanks or healers when they are in fact not tanks or healers.

hydrocynus

idk wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

From my understanding, When using the Grouping tool your stats are buffed. This is a way to encourage use of the system and to help accomodate sub optimal groups (i guess).

An interesting alteration to this would be to buff and nerf players depending on the role that they are selected as for the group as opposed to the current base stats buff.

It could look like this: (Numbers selected for example, not intended as balanced, just to illustrate the system)
this bit is important - When grouping as less than a full group:
Tank - 10% to health and 10% to Phys & Spell Restistance, 50% reduction in damage output
Heal - 10% to max base stat, 10% increase to healing, 50% reduction in damage output
DPS - 10% to max base stat, 10% increase to damage output (cant think what would be a good debuff. Seems drastic to reduce mitigation or healing).

When Grouping as a full group:
Current base stat buff is fine, because the group is put together in the way that the group members wish and there is no randomness to who you are paired with and how they want to play.

Thoughts?

This would be a great way to dissuade me from using the grouping tool. Just looking at the nerf to healers, I am often half the groups damage as a healer and yes, still healing. Some times well over half the groups damage. Seems like a very bad idea to nerf the groups damage by as much as OP is suggesting.

Nerfing players is not exactly a wise way to encourage use of the GF. It is also not likely to change anything OP is desiring

One would have to look at the reason the many tanks and many who can tank as a normal tank do not join the GF. Far to often the dps is low and the dungeon takes a long time as a result. It is just easier to form a group from the guild and know the run will go well..

Again. The numbers are just examples. The concept can work if the Nerf to tank and heal dps is balanced by the buff in damage to the 2 DDs.

Ep1kMalware

Aisle9 wrote: »

Fun fact

Having a game cater to casual players, then complaining about casual players joining the game's content is not necessarily in the realm of reasonable conversation.

If you join for a Pug, you assume your fellow puglets may be awesome players, or awful players.

It doesn't matter how many restrictions you put in the grouping tool.

You don't like the puglets you got, leave, try again.

Politely ask to be kicked, go afk if they refuse, so they will eventually votekick you, and you won't get the debuff, otherwise suck it up, leave the group, wait 10 minutes.

Also, concerning your OP:

bonus to resistances is useless, as real tanks already are close to resistance caps, therefore it would only help fake tanks. 50% damage debuff, for a DD pushing 40k is still 20k. For a DD reaching 30k - > 15k.

Average tanks pull anywhere between 3 to 5k, really active tanks, with specialized builds can reach 9 - 10k.

Also, tanks that rely on heavy attacks to sustain will get the shaft.

50% damage debuff to healers will mean heavy attacks will restore less magicka, while 10% more healing done is pretty much useless, as you can't heal more than max HP, while you still can't [reliably] outheal oneshots, therefore dedicated healers won't notice it in the slightest, while healers that rely on damage (e.g. NB healers) will get shafted.

as for the 10% to max stat + 10% damage to DDs... sure, sounds fun, I always wanted to get a 70k single target parse in a dungeon.

But, no, I'm against it, not really for the buffs and debuffs, but simply because I believe the GF is a lame horse, beyond saving, and we should just let it die. Then a proper matchmaking tool can be designed. The reason why this won't happen is because of how I started the reply:

The game is catering to casual players, therefore you need to be able to let them reach content, even if it's by technically cheating.

And I'm using the term casual as in player that is not invested in the game, but rather just want to kill time. I know it's probably reductive, but that roughly translate in "that guy spamming light attacks in the corner with the bow" or "the fake tank with the greatsword". I'm not saying all casuals are bad at gaming, but people bad at it usually presents the excuse "I just want to have fun" or "I had a long day at work, therefore I don't want to work in the game".

TL;DR; The idea is not practical because of the untold truth of the GF: it's there to allow casuals to join content, without the need to socialize or invest resources (time and effort) in the game.

Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.


*edit*
Just to be clear, I'm not using the term "casual" in a derogatory way, but I don't respect casual players in group contexts.

If I decide to relax by playing a game of basketball with friends, I'm expected to:
a) know the rules.
b) be somewhat proficient at the game.
c) be in shape enough to not run out of breath after running 2meters.

If one of these requisites is not respected, I will expect mockery from my peers, because I'm letting my teammates down, and contributing to my team losing the game (not fun).

It's perfectly fine in solo situations, but the moment you step in a group you should realize on your own that it's not just your personal enjoyment that is paramount, but rather completing the objective, which, in turn, will contribute to everyone's enjoyment.

I contef that your argument is misplaced, as the games content varies greatly. By 'cater' I think you're referring to the fact that alot of this game's content is relatively easy, and the vast majority of the casual crowd can complete this content without mucn trouble. (Some vet dungeons and below).

Lazy [snip] and selfish aholes shouldnt be considered amongst the casual playerbase and is insulting as a whole. That's like comparing people who buy vmol skins and cheat to the elite raiding scene.

[Edited to remove profanity]

hydrocynus

baratron wrote: »

Speaking as a Healer, I don't think you realise that the Spell Damage stat governs the strength of a player's heals. It should really be called Spell Power.

Very good point. It can't be straight % buff/nerf to weapon/ spell power.

It would have to be a buff using Slayer/Mending/Ward etc

So make a new level that stacks with Minor/Major, floor example Grouped.

E.g:

Tank is granted "Grouped Aegis" granting 5% less damage from dungeon and trials monsters and "Grouped maim" reducing damage by 5%

Healer is granted "Grouped Mending" increasing healing done by 8% and "Grouped Maim" reducing damage by 5%

Etc

Ep1kMalware

hydrocynus wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

Speaking as a Healer, I don't think you realise that the Spell Damage stat governs the strength of a player's heals. It should really be called Spell Power.

Very good point. It can't be straight % buff/nerf to weapon/ spell power.

It would have to be a buff using Slayer/Mending/Ward etc

So make a new level that stacks with Minor/Major, floor example Grouped.

E.g:

Tank is granted "Grouped Aegis" granting 5% less damage from dungeon and trials monsters and "Grouped maim" reducing damage by 5%

Healer is granted "Grouped Mending" increasing healing done by 8% and "Grouped Maim" reducing damage by 5%

Etc

You guys are forgetting the fact that total magica is an EQUAL an potentiall greater factor to that equation. Smh

Wrathmane

Beardimus wrote: »

I don't think this would stop people queuing as the wrong thing. Honestly.

People that do it just want to get in the queue fast. And this penalties will only make the dungeon take longer, making the problem worse.

Fake Tanks / Healers are onLy a problem if it impacts the groups. On a normal dungeon it hardly matters and in fact 4 DPS will burn thru most mechanics so quick it doesn't matter.

Hard vet content it can cause a problem, but again it depends on the calibre of player. CP690 players can pull it all off. I did a PIG Mazzatun the other night. 4 DPS, one had a frost staff to taunt, one Sorc switched his scamp for a twilight. Did we die yes, ut did we get Vet/Hard Mode done YES.

If their DPS had been hampered we would have failed.

The bigger issue in particular in Normal dungeons is bad DPS. You can solo normal dungeons. Thus one or two good dps is all you need rest is surplus.

The amount of time my healer has joined dungeons and as he's a sorc DPS have said "you better not be a fake healer, we kicked the last one" to then watch the DPS spam light attacks, not block or ward or get out of the red and make it a hard for themselves. Still got it done, but honestly poor DPS is the biggest issue in normal dungeons failing.

I've only seen that by playing all roles

Agreed 100%,

My main Sorc can fulfill all roles with a change of equipment...... I can clear all the DLC vet dungeons in any role, with three other decent players. The number of times I'e seen bad DPS's out there standing in the "stupid" while I'm trying to heal them through it is staggering, or better yet standing in front of a boss while I'm trying to turn it away from him only to see him get cleaved. After which comes the inevitable accusation that I'm a fake healer or don't you have a taunt on him. Its kinda to be expected in today's society where pretty much no one is willing to accept the fact that they are making a mistake or they are the problem, its way easier to just blame someone else that accept that they need to L2p.

idk

kylewwefan wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I Tank group finder randoms all the time. On a proper tank. It’s always a risk getting low damage groups. This proposal would be somewhat a buff to support roles and a decent deterrent to fakers.

I queue as a proper tank as well but also ok healers.

That debuff to the healer will only make the groups dps worse. In many case cutting the groups dps in half ans worse.

Not to worry. Zos knows better tha to adopt such a system since there is nothing beneficial about this idea. The only thing it offers is to lengthen queue times.

JesQu

Who cares unless it's a DLC dung? lol

NyassaV

I'll say it again. I can do 34k DPS and 15k HPS at the same time. It doesn't matter what I queue as, if you can't do your job, you are the issue. L2P

hydrocynus

.

hydrocynus

Hollery wrote: »

I'll say it again. I can do 34k DPS and 15k HPS at the same time. It doesn't matter what I que as, if you can't do your job, you are the issue. L2P

Exactly. You are not the issue. It's the dude who does 15k dps and 0khps who groups as a healer

phileunderx2

Dungeons need to be where tanks and healers are needed even in the lowbie faceroll ones because people get the mindset that we don't need them to get through and then later on when you get bloodroot as a random normal unless your group has awesome dps your fake tank group is not going to make it.

idk

Hollery wrote: »

I'll say it again. I can do 34k DPS and 15k HPS at the same time. It doesn't matter what I queue as, if you can't do your job, you are the issue. L2P

Exactly ok the type of damage the healer can bring in a 4 man dungeon. This thread wants to cut that damage in half which in many groups would severely reduce the groups total damage.

Really didn't make sense to nerf the groups total damage and think that's good for GF.

What is also interesting is that a great many tanks do not touch GF because of the good chance of getting a group with very low damage. So we will nerf the groups damage further. This comment will be ignored.

Anotherone773

* Buff all dungeon trash mobs to "elite".
* Buff any elite mobs to mini boss status.
* Add 1 or 2 DPS per group
* Give tanks and healers a 30-50% reduction in ability cost.
* Add bonus rewards for healers/tanks that are useful.

Edit: buff the dungeon drop tables for mobs to stuff that is at least semi worth looting. I get better loot out of open world treasure chests and dont have to kill anything for it and it takes 10 seconds or less of effort to acquire.

Slurg

idk wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I Tank group finder randoms all the time. On a proper tank. It’s always a risk getting low damage groups. This proposal would be somewhat a buff to support roles and a decent deterrent to fakers.

I queue as a proper tank as well but also ok healers.

That debuff to the healer will only make the groups dps worse. In many case cutting the groups dps in half ans worse.

Not to worry. Zos knows better tha to adopt such a system since there is nothing beneficial about this idea. The only thing it offers is to lengthen queue times.

I agree, when I have queued for random dungeons as a healer I have found that in many cases I have to contribute to DPS in addition to healing to get through dungeons in a timely manner. I don’t see any benefit to running off actual healers by nerfing their DPS.

hydrocynus wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I am not proposing a system to get more people interested as queueing as tanks or healers.

I am proposing a system to get less people to queue as tanks or healers when they are in fact not tanks or healers.

If you are trying to discourage people from queueing as fake tanks and healers without getting more people interested in queuing as real tanks and healers, that will increase queue times, so why would anyone bother to queue at all?

idk

Slurg wrote: »

idk wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I Tank group finder randoms all the time. On a proper tank. It’s always a risk getting low damage groups. This proposal would be somewhat a buff to support roles and a decent deterrent to fakers.

I queue as a proper tank as well but also ok healers.

That debuff to the healer will only make the groups dps worse. In many case cutting the groups dps in half ans worse.

Not to worry. Zos knows better tha to adopt such a system since there is nothing beneficial about this idea. The only thing it offers is to lengthen queue times.

I agree, when I have queued for random dungeons as a healer I have found that in many cases I have to contribute to DPS in addition to healing to get through dungeons in a timely manner. I don’t see any benefit to running off actual healers by nerfing their DPS.

hydrocynus wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

How would your proposed system punish the DPS players who need a carry and are doing less damage than the tank and healer combined?

This would not make me want to queue as a tank or a healer at all - clearing the dungeon would be painfully slow if I was stuck with low DPS players and could not contribute to damage.

I am not proposing a system to get more people interested as queueing as tanks or healers.

I am proposing a system to get less people to queue as tanks or healers when they are in fact not tanks or healers.

If you are trying to discourage people from queueing as fake tanks and healers without getting more people interested in queuing as real tanks and healers, that will increase queue times, so why would anyone bother to queue at all?

Exactly. Threads like this ignore the issue which is why the ideas presented don't seem logical by any means.

Ep1kMalware

hydrocynus wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I'll say it again. I can do 34k DPS and 15k HPS at the same time. It doesn't matter what I que as, if you can't do your job, you are the issue. L2P

Exactly. You are not the issue. It's the dude who does 15k dps and 0khps who groups as a healer

15k dps is quite acceptable even. 700-800dps on the other hand..

Ajitator

This is by far the most annoying part of the LFG system right now. I play multiple chars all with focused roles 2dps ( Stamblade/mag sorc) 1 healer 1 tank. Nothing bothers me more than when I'm on my stamblade and spend the whole dungeon chasing around the boss / mobs because our "tank" really just tries to kite mobs around.

While I admit my tank and healer queue up almost instantly, My DPS rarely takes longer than for me to go to a merchant and reload on supplies and repair. The people complaining about 20 min queue times are exaggerating. I've never waited longer than 10 mins, which feels like an eternity in game, but it's not like you need to sit any stare at a wall while your queued.

I think we have to take the responsibility as players to use the power given to us by Zenos. Kick players queued up for the wrong roles.

I've seen far to much leniency to allow these 'fake roles' to struggle through a dungeon because "It's just <insert dungeon name here>, Stop being such a hard ass"

I get more flak for calling people out than the people actually queuing for a fake role. If every time someone was queued up as a wrong role they got booted after the first encounter they would stop doing that.


TL;DR: Don't support people queueing as wrong roles,.. Call them out, Kick them out.

Ep1kMalware

Ajitator wrote: »

This is by far the most annoying part of the LFG system right now. I play multiple chars all with focused roles 2dps ( Stamblade/mag sorc) 1 healer 1 tank. Nothing bothers me more than when I'm on my stamblade and spend the whole dungeon chasing around the boss / mobs because our "tank" really just tries to kite mobs around.

While I admit my tank and healer queue up almost instantly, My DPS rarely takes longer than for me to go to a merchant and reload on supplies and repair. The people complaining about 20 min queue times are exaggerating. I've never waited longer than 10 mins, which feels like an eternity in game, but it's not like you need to sit any stare at a wall while your queued.

I think we have to take the responsibility as players to use the power given to use by Zenos. Kick players queued up for the wrong roles.

I've seen far to much leniency to allow these 'fake roles' to struggle through a dungeon because "It's just <insert dungeon name here>, Stop being such a hard ass"

I get more flak for calling people out than the people actually queuing for a fake role. If every time someone was queued up as a wrong role they got booted after the first encounter they would stop doing that.


TL;DR: Don't support people queueing as wrong roles,.. Call them out, Kick them out.

I disagree. My dps gets groups for the dailies faster than my tank/healer does. -_-

Anotherone773

Hollery wrote: »

I'll say it again. I can do 34k DPS and 15k HPS at the same time. It doesn't matter what I queue as, if you can't do your job, you are the issue. L2P

If your doing 34k dps and 15k HPS, im going to LET you carry me through a dungeon. Im going to be sitting on your shoulder yelling at the mobs like baby groot.

I do 5k dps max but i just got into cp levels. I dont even having matching gear, or gear thats all the same level. Some of my gear is 10 levels old. And i dont get all bothered about trying to max my DPS and i likely never will. So if we are in group together you are probably going to carry me. Im still going to attempt to help, but if im only doing 10% of total damage, im not going to get upset about it.

In some groups i put out 40-50% of the dps, I dont get upset about that either. I honestly dont think high levels should be grouped with low levels. I dont like playing with high level players in my groups. Id rather do dungeons with groups around my level and not have to deal with elitist bitter vets with superiority and god complexes while im trying to have fun and relax.

And i will learn to play, just maybe not L2P your way. ( Yes that elitist L2P saying rubs me the wrong way, its a game. Take life seriously, not a video game.)

Ep1kMalware

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I'll say it again. I can do 34k DPS and 15k HPS at the same time. It doesn't matter what I queue as, if you can't do your job, you are the issue. L2P

If your doing 34k dps and 15k HPS, im going to LET you carry me through a dungeon. Im going to be sitting on your shoulder yelling at the mobs like baby groot.

I do 5k dps max but i just got into cp levels. I dont even having matching gear, or gear thats all the same level. Some of my gear is 10 levels old. And i dont get all bothered about trying to max my DPS and i likely never will. So if we are in group together you are probably going to carry me. Im still going to attempt to help, but if im only doing 10% of total damage, im not going to get upset about it.

In some groups i put out 40-50% of the dps, I dont get upset about that either. I honestly dont think high levels should be grouped with low levels. I dont like playing with high level players in my groups. Id rather do dungeons with groups around my level and not have to deal with elitist bitter vets with superiority and god complexes while im trying to have fun and relax.

And i will learn to play, just maybe not L2P your way. ( Yes that elitist L2P saying rubs me the wrong way, its a game. Take life seriously, not a video game.)

for some players (often times the ones carrying you) daily dungeons aren't relaxing. They're a bothersome chore we end up doing on several toons and just want it to be overwith so we can do something enjoyable ourselves. We're not hating on you for being a low level, we just don't wanna be there in the first place. But when you're forced to farm for gear what else do you do?

Aisle9

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Fun fact

Having a game cater to casual players, then complaining about casual players joining the game's content is not necessarily in the realm of reasonable conversation.

If you join for a Pug, you assume your fellow puglets may be awesome players, or awful players.

It doesn't matter how many restrictions you put in the grouping tool.

You don't like the puglets you got, leave, try again.

Politely ask to be kicked, go afk if they refuse, so they will eventually votekick you, and you won't get the debuff, otherwise suck it up, leave the group, wait 10 minutes.

Also, concerning your OP:

bonus to resistances is useless, as real tanks already are close to resistance caps, therefore it would only help fake tanks. 50% damage debuff, for a DD pushing 40k is still 20k. For a DD reaching 30k - > 15k.

Average tanks pull anywhere between 3 to 5k, really active tanks, with specialized builds can reach 9 - 10k.

Also, tanks that rely on heavy attacks to sustain will get the shaft.

50% damage debuff to healers will mean heavy attacks will restore less magicka, while 10% more healing done is pretty much useless, as you can't heal more than max HP, while you still can't [reliably] outheal oneshots, therefore dedicated healers won't notice it in the slightest, while healers that rely on damage (e.g. NB healers) will get shafted.

as for the 10% to max stat + 10% damage to DDs... sure, sounds fun, I always wanted to get a 70k single target parse in a dungeon.

But, no, I'm against it, not really for the buffs and debuffs, but simply because I believe the GF is a lame horse, beyond saving, and we should just let it die. Then a proper matchmaking tool can be designed. The reason why this won't happen is because of how I started the reply:

The game is catering to casual players, therefore you need to be able to let them reach content, even if it's by technically cheating.

And I'm using the term casual as in player that is not invested in the game, but rather just want to kill time. I know it's probably reductive, but that roughly translate in "that guy spamming light attacks in the corner with the bow" or "the fake tank with the greatsword". I'm not saying all casuals are bad at gaming, but people bad at it usually presents the excuse "I just want to have fun" or "I had a long day at work, therefore I don't want to work in the game".

TL;DR; The idea is not practical because of the untold truth of the GF: it's there to allow casuals to join content, without the need to socialize or invest resources (time and effort) in the game.

Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.


*edit*
Just to be clear, I'm not using the term "casual" in a derogatory way, but I don't respect casual players in group contexts.

If I decide to relax by playing a game of basketball with friends, I'm expected to:
a) know the rules.
b) be somewhat proficient at the game.
c) be in shape enough to not run out of breath after running 2meters.

If one of these requisites is not respected, I will expect mockery from my peers, because I'm letting my teammates down, and contributing to my team losing the game (not fun).

It's perfectly fine in solo situations, but the moment you step in a group you should realize on your own that it's not just your personal enjoyment that is paramount, but rather completing the objective, which, in turn, will contribute to everyone's enjoyment.

I contef that your argument is misplaced, as the games content varies greatly. By 'cater' I think you're referring to the fact that alot of this game's content is relatively easy, and the vast majority of the casual crowd can complete this content without mucn trouble. (Some vet dungeons and below).

Lazy [snip] and selfish aholes shouldnt be considered amongst the casual playerbase and is insulting as a whole. That's like comparing people who buy vmol skins and cheat to the elite raiding scene.

The context is group dungeons, and specifically the group finder.

By 'cater' I'm referring to the numerous changes (e.g. One Tamriel) made to create easier access to content.

The "vast majority" can't, it looks like, as people are constantly complaining about it. At any given time there's one or more discussion about it.

Saying "casual it's insulting as a whole" doesn't make any sense, unless you provide a specific context, the same way claiming someone's ignorance may be considered an insult. The term itself is not an insult, but the connotation in context make it so.

For instance, saying "You're just a poor ignorant" may be considered an insult because historically it's been used to indicate a lower social status: "General ignorance is common in people of low social status, therefore by accusing you of it I'm implying you're in some way inferior to me, because my social status is higher, as determined by my superior knowledge".

Another example is claiming someone is ignorant in what is considered their field of expertise, that is clearly an attack on their reputation.

But claiming "ignorant is an insult as a whole", of course, is just moronic, because ignorance of an argument simply defines the lack of knowledge of that argument, and claiming someone somehow possess universal ignorance (e.g. Jon Snow) is statistically improbable.

Same way "casual" may be considered an insult if thrown at someone invested in the game (i.e. "You're just a filthy casual") and may consider that as such, because it's defines the lack of investment in it.

I never called casual players "Lazy [snip] and selfish ***", nor I would ever. Playing a game for the sake of spending time is perfectly fine as long as you're doing it on your own. My only contention was regarding group context.

My point about the OP's proposal can be found just above the point you seemed to obsess about, which I only added as clarification exactly to avoid this kind of argument. I guess the joke's on me.

BTW, the point was that changes to the Group Finder will be useless, and most likely detrimental to classical roles (e.g. damage debuff impairing resources sustain), and therefore, no matter the buffs and debuffs, IMHO, it's not advantageous to add them.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

[Edited for quotes]
[Edited to remove profanity]

Tenn60

To be honest most vet dungeons, minus dlc ones, can be done without a tank and healer, and 90% of the community that uses group finder just wants to get through the dungeon as fast as possible. Join a guild or find people to run with if you want to have correct roles. 3 dps and a tank/healer or in most cases 4 dps will help you burn through dungeons quicker than a proper group.

Ep1kMalware

Aisle9 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Fun fact

Having a game cater to casual players, then complaining about casual players joining the game's content is not necessarily in the realm of reasonable conversation.

If you join for a Pug, you assume your fellow puglets may be awesome players, or awful players.

It doesn't matter how many restrictions you put in the grouping tool.

You don't like the puglets you got, leave, try again.

Politely ask to be kicked, go afk if they refuse, so they will eventually votekick you, and you won't get the debuff, otherwise suck it up, leave the group, wait 10 minutes.

Also, concerning your OP:

bonus to resistances is useless, as real tanks already are close to resistance caps, therefore it would only help fake tanks. 50% damage debuff, for a DD pushing 40k is still 20k. For a DD reaching 30k - > 15k.

Average tanks pull anywhere between 3 to 5k, really active tanks, with specialized builds can reach 9 - 10k.

Also, tanks that rely on heavy attacks to sustain will get the shaft.

50% damage debuff to healers will mean heavy attacks will restore less magicka, while 10% more healing done is pretty much useless, as you can't heal more than max HP, while you still can't [reliably] outheal oneshots, therefore dedicated healers won't notice it in the slightest, while healers that rely on damage (e.g. NB healers) will get shafted.

as for the 10% to max stat + 10% damage to DDs... sure, sounds fun, I always wanted to get a 70k single target parse in a dungeon.

But, no, I'm against it, not really for the buffs and debuffs, but simply because I believe the GF is a lame horse, beyond saving, and we should just let it die. Then a proper matchmaking tool can be designed. The reason why this won't happen is because of how I started the reply:

The game is catering to casual players, therefore you need to be able to let them reach content, even if it's by technically cheating.

And I'm using the term casual as in player that is not invested in the game, but rather just want to kill time. I know it's probably reductive, but that roughly translate in "that guy spamming light attacks in the corner with the bow" or "the fake tank with the greatsword". I'm not saying all casuals are bad at gaming, but people bad at it usually presents the excuse "I just want to have fun" or "I had a long day at work, therefore I don't want to work in the game".

TL;DR; The idea is not practical because of the untold truth of the GF: it's there to allow casuals to join content, without the need to socialize or invest resources (time and effort) in the game.

Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.


*edit*
Just to be clear, I'm not using the term "casual" in a derogatory way, but I don't respect casual players in group contexts.

If I decide to relax by playing a game of basketball with friends, I'm expected to:
a) know the rules.
b) be somewhat proficient at the game.
c) be in shape enough to not run out of breath after running 2meters.

If one of these requisites is not respected, I will expect mockery from my peers, because I'm letting my teammates down, and contributing to my team losing the game (not fun).

It's perfectly fine in solo situations, but the moment you step in a group you should realize on your own that it's not just your personal enjoyment that is paramount, but rather completing the objective, which, in turn, will contribute to everyone's enjoyment.

I contef that your argument is misplaced, as the games content varies greatly. By 'cater' I think you're referring to the fact that alot of this game's content is relatively easy, and the vast majority of the casual crowd can complete this content without mucn trouble. (Some vet dungeons and below).

Lazy [snip] and selfish aholes shouldnt be considered amongst the casual playerbase and is insulting as a whole. That's like comparing people who buy vmol skins and cheat to the elite raiding scene.

The context is group dungeons, and specifically the group finder.

By 'cater' I'm referring to the numerous changes (e.g. One Tamriel) made to create easier access to content.

The "vast majority" can't, it looks like, as people are constantly complaining about it. At any given time there's one or more discussion about it.

Saying "casual it's insulting as a whole" doesn't make any sense, unless you provide a specific context, the same way claiming someone's ignorance may be considered an insult. The term itself is not an insult, but the connotation in context make it so.

For instance, saying "You're just a poor ignorant" may be considered an insult because historically it's been used to indicate a lower social status: "General ignorance is common in people of low social status, therefore by accusing you of it I'm implying you're in some way inferior to me, because my social status is higher, as determined by my superior knowledge".

Another example is claiming someone is ignorant in what is considered their field of expertise, that is clearly an attack on their reputation.

But claiming "ignorant is an insult as a whole", of course, is just moronic, because ignorance of an argument simply defines the lack of knowledge of that argument, and claiming someone somehow possess universal ignorance (e.g. Jon Snow) is statistically improbable.

Same way "casual" may be considered an insult if thrown at someone invested in the game (i.e. "You're just a filthy casual") and may consider that as such, because it's defines the lack of investment in it.

I never called casual players "Lazy [snip] and selfish ***", nor I would ever. Playing a game for the sake of spending time is perfectly fine as long as you're doing it on your own. My only contention was regarding group context.

My point about the OP's proposal can be found just above the point you seemed to obsess about, which I only added as clarification exactly to avoid this kind of argument. I guess the joke's on me.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

I thought I made the context clear, but maybe not. Regardless, it does happen but not like its perpetuated in the forums. Try playing the game for a while and you'll see for yourself that most groups can generally do just fine on the vast majority of the game's content. Save for maybe some vet dlc dungeons and trials. Even the 2 newest dungeons (I just got back from a 4 month eso break, so I literally just got to try them).

The filthy casual and toxic elitests scenes in game are far different than what a tiny community of regular posters and habitual crybabies make it look like.

Most everyone in the 'toxic elitest' groups have no qualms carrying casuals from time to time and are fairly fun to run with. Most of the casuals in the game are perfectly capable of understanding mechanics and clearing standard content.

And finally, to reiterate because apperantly it wasn't readily digestible on my previous attempt:

Comparing the useless maggots that enter a group instance with no effort to help either the group, or themselves to a casual player is an insult. Much the same way it is to compare cheaters and moneycarries (people who bought vmol/hof/vma achievements) to the serious endgame pve scene.

[Edited for quotes]

Mauin

hydrocynus wrote: »

I am not proposing a system to get more people interested as queueing as tanks or healers.

I am proposing a system to get less people to queue as tanks or healers when they are in fact not tanks or healers.

Problem is, your proposed system also punishes legitimate tanks and healers.

Sorry, but if ZOS actually implemented such a thing, I would stop doing PUG dungeons entirely. I don't care for any further buffs or debuffs. Any damage reduction in a PUG group is a bad thing. 50% or 5%, I wouldn't accept that.

The vast majority of PUGs I seem to get into have low group DPS. Of those, the worst of the bunch have my tanks (who might do 3-5k DPS at best) doing over 75% of the total damage. Reduce the damage of my tanks any further and those low DPS PUGs will take even longer to complete, if they complete at all.

Just last night, we were doing randoms and couldn't get a fourth from guild. For the first one, we queued with a tank, healer, and DPS. The dungeon was Direfrost Keep and before we even got to the first boss... The tank said we were going to need my healer to DPS. And so I found myself healing and DPSing the dungeon using only lightning blockade and funnel health. Nobody died, the fights didn't take 5 minutes, and we were all happy. Reduce my healer's damage and that wouldn't have happened.