Feedback regarding the new Morrowind Furnishing Documents (and some thoughts about economy & prices)

Carbonised

Since my EU character was finally ported over (really, can't we have EU/NA on the PTS at the same time? Why do EU always have to be 2 weeks behind ... ), I got an opportunity to buy Hlaalu Morrowind documents for about 3,500 vouchers. Here's my feedback:

THANK YOU for finally making these available. They should have been available from the start. It's really a horrible marketing decision to leave these furnishing plans as a once in a blue moon droprate that makes it virtually impossible for anyone to learn the recipes, unless they have millions in the double digits to spend on plans at guild stores (the few ones that were actually for sale). Please don't do this for every other DLC and Chapter from here on, at least make it fair for everyone to put in the time, effort and gold cost to actually be able to learn them. So, while I'm happy with the current plans, I believe it should have been implemented half a year ago with the Chapter itself, hrmph.

Secondly, you're somewhat pushing the limit regarding the voucher cost. When you raised the voucher cost for normal purple plans from 10 to 25 vouchers, you already made them not worth for voucher hoarders to spend their vouchers on. So instead of having a steady trickle of recipes into the traders and economy, we now have people hoarding their vouchers, instead of using them on the documents, as the selling prices aren't worth the cost put in.
The Morrowind documents are 50 vouchers per, and 20 for blues, so that's twice the amount! Along with the initially 1500 voucher outfitting station, it makes me believe that you have no idea about the reasonable value of such items. I think you have looked at serverwide statistics, which show you the total amount of vouchers. And I'm sure there are certain people who have vouchers in the numbers of tens of thousands, or even more. Several people in my trade guilds have guildhalls with every attunable set crafting station and loads more, which has cost tens of thousands of vouchers, and when you look at that, you think 50 vouchers for a document or 1500 for a station is a drop in the ocean. But, to whomever is designing this, please understand that these people are an anomaly, some people will ALWAYS swim in vouchers, gold, AP, Tel Var or whatever currency, no matter what obscene prices you put on things, or how many gold sinks or voucher sinks you introduce. Just like the game mechanics shouldn't be balanced around the top 0.5 % who dish out the best damage, the game's economy and pricings shouldn't be balanced around the 0.5 % with the most gold or vouchers on the server. You're only exclusing the broad majority from participating.
I see this as an escalating trend with ESO. Look at gold costs for achievement furniture when it was introduced, basic plants and such were a few hundred, a thousand at most, and with Morrowind and CWC, we see the prices have risen massively, several thousand gold for a tree, and many achievement furnishings in the 100-150k gold category.
Same with vouchers, purples used to be 10 vouchers, then 25, and now Morrowind ones are 50 each. Crafting stations were reasonably priced first, then came the hugely expensive clockwork ones, and now you try and introduce 1,500 voucher outfitting stations (yes i know it was lowered, but the fact that you thought 1,500 was a reasonable price to begin with just supports my thesis).
So, while 50 vouchers is certainly better than paying 900k for a purple recipe at a trader, you're pushing the upper limit as to how these things should be reasonably priced.

And that ties me into my final and most important part - with a large cost of 50 vouchers for purples and 20 for blues, the documents should absolutely NOT have the daedric plans in their loottables. The Dwarven ones don't fit in a Morrowind theme as well, but at least they are still worth good coin, and you can sell them off if you don't want them yourself. The current Daedric purple recipes are found massively everywhere in the world, dropping from every Daedric mob as well as dark anchors and whatnot. People are swimming in Daedric purples and blues, and the purples currently sell for a hundred gold or sell on PC EU, the blues are sitting at 20-30 gold.
When you spend a large cost of 50 vouchers for a recipe, you absolutely should NOT pull a recipe worth 200 gold, that's for sale at every guild trader. If you want to justify the large 50 voucher cost, they should be Morrowind/Vvardenfell exclusive recipes, and perhaps the Dwarven ones with a very low droprate. The Daedric ones have to go.

TL;DR: Remove Daedric plans from the documents, both purples and blues. And please read the entire post for feedback about pricing and economy.

Carbonised

Another things, related to the topic at hand, at the current time, it seems like the only Telvanni lights that are craftable are the Azure types (with blue light), as well as a single Telvanni Candelabra with the orange/amber light. All the other Amber types of lights are Crown Store exclusives.

Is there a reason behind this? Why can we buy both types of lights in the Crown Store, but only 1 type (and a single candelabra) as craftables? Please introduce recipes for BOTH types of Telvanni lights, we need the recipes for all the other Amber types of lights.

Jayne_Doe

Great points! I hope they take your arguments into consideration. At least about removing the Daedric plans. I will cringe every time I open one of these documents and find a Daedric plan inside. Ugh...

Carbonised

I wanted to ping the people resonsible for the furnishing and recipe system, but I don't even know who that is. The same guy you had on ESO live last time, who explained about the outfitting system maybe?
I think the game suffers from not having a person on your team dedicated to crafting, recipes and the whole non-pvp non-pve aspect of the game. It's clear that area is much neglected.

Anywho, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom maybe you guys can make sure the feedback goes to the revelant person or persons? There hasn't been an official feedback thread for the new furnishing plans, and I wouldn't want it to drown entirely in discussions about class balance and pvp that already take up the majority of the subforum space.

Carbonised

Also, it would be nice to actually get the recipes for the common hourglass and the teapot in game soon. They have been datamined, but aren't yet obtainable.
Could we please get access to these 2 recipes soon? I'm sure many people would be interested in making hourglasses (not the redguard one) and teapots for their homes and for others.

Marabornwingrion

Can you please write how many deadric plans you've got from purple Morrowind furnishing documents? I'm curious about their drop rate.

Carbonised

Astrid_V wrote: »

Can you please write how many deadric plans you've got from purple Morrowind furnishing documents? I'm curious about their drop rate.

I bought something like 105 documents, and had about 4 daedric and maybe 4 or 5 dwarven.
So while it's not all that terrible overall, I still think the daedric plans shouldn't be in there. If you save up for 50 vouchers, turn them in, only to get a 70 gold worth recipe that's available everywhere, I would get extremely bummed about it.

Another guy also bought a lot of purple recipes, and his numbers were the same. They don't take up that much of the loottable, but even still, I don't think they should be there at all. You buy the documents because the Vvardenfell recipes are literally not available anywhere else, unless you want to camp in Dreloth tomb and farm for 8 hours per single drop.
The daedric ones drop from every dark anchor, and every daedra NPC in the game. That's a lot different.

JHartEllis

The Morrowind furnishing plan documents are severely underpriced at 20 and 50 Writ Vouchers for blue and purple, respectively. The AVERAGE cost of purple plans on PC NA is approximately 550,000 gold, with Writ Vouchers worth approximately 1000g each. As such, the purple plan documents would need to cost over 500 writ vouchers each to not have a significant market impact. It's really okay for there to be these sorts of changes and to make the plans more available, but the plans really ought to cost more like 50 Writ Vouchers for blue and 200 Writ Vouchers for purple--they would be very much in demand at those prices, especially since there are several new plans in the table.

I very much hope ZOS increases the cost before it hits live. The crafted furnishing market depends very much on there being a large gap between plan acquisition cost and furnishing crafting cost, and making Morrowind plans super cheap makes Morrowind not look anything special.

victoriana-blue

First off, thank you to Carbonised for opening a bunch of envelopes, I don't have the patience for it so I appreciate your findings. And agreed, the envelopes shouldn't have daedric stuff - there are probably tons already floating around the game and being destroyed each day.

I think increasing the base game plans to 25 vouchers/purple was a mistake, so guess what I think about the Morrowind pricing. Three guesses, even, and the first two don't count. ;p

I'm abstractly glad the Morrowind plans will finally be available on a larger scale, I just wish this had happened in a previous DLC, so that I could be excited about it. At that price I'm going to put my 800+ vouchers toward storage instead of plans. 50k gold (+ time to find writs & make the items) for a 1:150 chance at a plan I want? No thanks. Doesn't help that after nine months being frustrated by Morrowind plans and three months of being frustrated at CWC plans, I've pretty much given up on having enough plans to furnish a Vvardenfell house - let alone complete a collection.

JHartEllis wrote: »

The Morrowind furnishing plan documents are severely underpriced at 20 and 50 Writ Vouchers for blue and purple, respectively. The AVERAGE cost of purple plans on PC NA is approximately 550,000 gold, with Writ Vouchers worth approximately 1000g each. As such, the purple plan documents would need to cost over 500 writ vouchers each to not have a significant market impact. It's really okay for there to be these sorts of changes and to make the plans more available, but the plans really ought to cost more like 50 Writ Vouchers for blue and 200 Writ Vouchers for purple--they would be very much in demand at those prices, especially since there are several new plans in the table.

I very much hope ZOS increases the cost before it hits live. The crafted furnishing market depends very much on there being a large gap between plan acquisition cost and furnishing crafting cost, and making Morrowind plans super cheap makes Morrowind not look anything special.

The problem is that those plans should never have gotten that expensive - they're only half a million because of drastic, intentional, artificial scarcity. I have over 3k hours in this game; I've been playing around in Vvardenfell since PC early access. I farmed for hundreds of hours in that zone, and I only had one purple Morrowind plan and two BA pages to show for it. That's broken.

Less than 10% of PC players last August had more than ~850k gold, total, across all characters; I make ~1mil gold a month and gave up on collecting plans because they're too expensive. These plans are far out of reach of any but the most dedicated collectors and merchants. They're "Paid for a vMoL carry" special, not "Did my own Flawless" special.

And while putting the plans in the envelopes is a good change that's long overdue, it's still going to be a long slog for someone to collect the plans they want from the writ vendor - there's a lot of time and effort involved in a) getting the traits & motifs to make the large variety of writs needed, and/or b) chasing down writs you can actually do. (ETA: By which I mean that the market is unlikely to be flooded by ~plebs~ getting the envelopes - it'll be crafters & traders again.)

Recremen

LOL there are daedric and dwemer furnishing plans mixed in? And they cost HOW MANY vouchers? It's already quite a bit of work just to keep up with Rolis' normal offerings, nevermind these mega-expensive RNG grab bags. This sounds terrible. Most people aren't hoarding tens of thousands of vouchers. They should stop catering design to that crowd and figure out a good fit for regular players.

Jhalin

Just like the game mechanics shouldn't be balanced around the top 0.5 % who dish out the best damage, the game's economy and pricings shouldn't be balanced around the 0.5 % with the most gold or vouchers on the server. You're only exclusing the broad majority from participating.

I really wish ZOS agreed with this philosophy

Unfortunately, as with Morrowind update and every other change they've hit us with, this patch is all about sticking it to the top performing players, in PvE and in Crafting. On the plus side, outfit station is now only a still exuberant 500 vouchers, so we can spend ~450k before we spend 20k over and over again to use it

Aliyavana

JHartEllis wrote: »

The Morrowind furnishing plan documents are severely underpriced at 20 and 50 Writ Vouchers for blue and purple, respectively. The AVERAGE cost of purple plans on PC NA is approximately 550,000 gold, with Writ Vouchers worth approximately 1000g each. As such, the purple plan documents would need to cost over 500 writ vouchers each to not have a significant market impact. It's really okay for there to be these sorts of changes and to make the plans more available, but the plans really ought to cost more like 50 Writ Vouchers for blue and 200 Writ Vouchers for purple--they would be very much in demand at those prices, especially since there are several new plans in the table.

I very much hope ZOS increases the cost before it hits live. The crafted furnishing market depends very much on there being a large gap between plan acquisition cost and furnishing crafting cost, and making Morrowind plans super cheap makes Morrowind not look anything special.

they shouldn't be that expensive or rare in the first place

Carbonised

@JHartEllis the fact that you're even suggesting something like 500 vouchers for a random recipe makes it hard to take anything in your post seriously.
I find that the only people rabidly defending the current extreme scarcity and the artificially inflated prices are the ones who stand to profit from it, and that's all I have to say on that matter.

It is plain to see that ZOS did not have any grand plans as to how rare the Vvardenfell plans "should" be. The current system was implemented solely as a cash cow, to force the vast majority of people into the Crown Store to get their stuff, instead of getting it the usual way via the game. This is very bad game design, and I really hope ZOS will stop doing that going forward.
At least as a band aid we get these recipes another way now, about half a year too late.

The downside is the Daedric recipes. I'm sure even ZOS can see that a 50 voucher container, that's even double the voucher price of the usual purples, shouldn't containt recipes that drop from every zone in the game, and can be bought from every guild vendor for pocket change. You specifically added a Vvardenfell/Morrowind achievement to the NPC vendor, to make sure that only people who actually have bought the Chapter have access to these recipes, which makes sense, then why on earth did you add recipes that drop from every base game zone (daedric & dwarven) to the lootables?
To me it seems like an oversight, and not intentional.
At least give us a confirmation whether this is intentional or not, for it makes absolutely no sense.

And finally, you need to add the Amber Telvanni light recipes to both the regular Morrowind zone loottables, as well as these Hlaalu documents. The only recipe that's available to craft for yourself in the game is the Telvanni Candelabra, Amber. All the other Amber types of lights are Crown Store exclusives. Also a very bad game design, and since you have milked on that for half a year now, it's time to put these recipes in the documents as well.

Taleof2Cities

Carbonised wrote: »

@JHartEllis the fact that you're even suggesting something like 500 vouchers for a random recipe makes it hard to take anything in your post seriously.
I find that the only people rabidly defending the current extreme scarcity and the artificially inflated prices are the ones who stand to profit from it, and that's all I have to say on that matter.

Sometimes I don’t agree with @Carbonised ...

... this time I do agree.

Having these available for writ vouchers gives players a chance to collect and sell them. It’s that simple.

Jayne_Doe

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@JHartEllis the fact that you're even suggesting something like 500 vouchers for a random recipe makes it hard to take anything in your post seriously.
I find that the only people rabidly defending the current extreme scarcity and the artificially inflated prices are the ones who stand to profit from it, and that's all I have to say on that matter.

Sometimes I don’t agree with @Carbonised ...

... this time I do agree.

Having these available for writ vouchers gives players a chance to collect and sell them. It’s that simple.

I agree, too. When I first read that post, I thought, really? You want to continue to have them be extremely rare/hard to get? Either they've made tons of gold selling Morrowind furnishings and want to keep their corner of the market, or they spent way to much gold on purple plans and don't want anyone else to get them for less.

I for one am very pleased with the price and hope to (insert deity here) that they DON'T INCREASE IT. Especially if they're still gonna have Daedric and Dwarven plans in them. I don't think Daedric should be in there since they're far too common. I don't mind the Dwarven ones. But, the OP has a good point that there is an achievement tied to purchasing these so that only those who own Morrowind can buy them, so they shouldn't include plans that anyone can get whether they have the chapter or not.

xaraan

Great points. I haven't bought a plan from the voucher vendor since they increased the prices of the purples and added the blues personally and definitely will not buy the new ones at double the price.

The pricing needs to drop greatly - don't forget zos, this is essentially RNG to most of us - will we get a double of something (sure, we can sell it; maybe) or will we get a plan that frankly, isn't great and nobody wants. Even before the price of purples went up, I only got something useful from them less than half the time and much less than half of that the double might be worth selling b/c it was desired. Hearing that the double price containers will have daedric recipes in them just guarantees I won't buy them, even if they went to half the price.

Why do all the work of several basic writs just to earn the chance to buy one container that might have a recipe that's useful to us. Better to just save the writs up for guaranteed gold recipes in the future, or whatever else might get added in.

Zos, you've done ok with the crown store, not getting carried away - but you have really pushed the line with housing/furniture. So many crown store only properties (and limited time) being added, and so many crown store only furnishings (or the next best thing: making it impossible to get in game, so might as well be crown store only). Be careful when milking something for all its worth, eventually it runs out; maybe you should handle it more fairly.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Carbonised wrote: »

Secondly, you're somewhat pushing the limit regarding the voucher cost. When you raised the voucher cost for normal purple plans from 10 to 25 vouchers, you already made them not worth for voucher hoarders to spend their vouchers on. So instead of having a steady trickle of recipes into the traders and economy, we now have people hoarding their vouchers, instead of using them on the documents, as the selling prices aren't worth the cost put in.

Second this.

Carbonised wrote: »

And that ties me into my final and most important part - with a large cost of 50 vouchers for purples and 20 for blues, the documents should absolutely NOT have the daedric plans in their loottables. The Dwarven ones don't fit in a Morrowind theme as well, but at least they are still worth good coin, and you can sell them off if you don't want them yourself.

And also this. And I'd honestly be fine if they omitted Dwemer too, just from the standpoint that those are lootable in any Dwemer ruins, which makes them more accessible in the first place. Or maybe give them a separate document type?

Apache_Kid

25 and 50 are way too expensive for these. The prices of the original furnishing documents should never have been raised either. If you're charging 25-50 per then there is absolutely no excuse for having those stupid daedric plans in that everyone already knows.

Recremen

Apache_Kid wrote: »

25 and 50 are way too expensive for these. The prices of the original furnishing documents should never have been raised either. If you're charging 25-50 per then there is absolutely no excuse for having those stupid daedric plans in that everyone already knows.

It's the weirdest thing how we've had exactly zero communication about the rationale for the price increase on the original documents, nevermind the continued silence on this issue despite the fantastic breakdown.

Carbonised

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I know the people yelling the loudest here on the PTS forums are the ones talking about class changes and balance, but could we maybe get someone to give some feedback regarding the furnishing documents and the presence of Dwarven and cheap Daedric plans in these rather expensive documents?
Also, some feedback whether you intend to include the Telvanni Amber lights in the crafting recipes eventually would also be super, thanks.

davey1107

I understand the thought process behind the OP’s complaint, but I disagree with a few points.

First, I don’t think 25 vouchers for the existing recipes killed the market (on my server). I’ve purchased hundreds of these, and what happened when the price went up,is that the value of the recipes on the guild stores went up. If I go purchase ten, right now in my character’s life I’m getting maybe two I can learn. Of the remaining eight to resell, I almost always get a $100k+ recipe. My average profits are more or less in line with selling attainable stations. When I get a really valuable duplicate, like the fire pit, once I resell it for $300k I invest in super speedy recipes I haven’t nabbed.

Ive been happy with the system...I think I’ve been able to learn most purples available for close to a zero cost.

Secondly, the rarity of recipes makes people all angry...I get it...but I think Zos set it up this way so that furnishings can revitalize the trade economy. And it really has...I move a hundred pieces of furniture a week, and for the most part I’m seeing every item available for crafting in the game being sold for a $1-$2k premium over the cost of mats. I’ve never been able to get that dang telvanni sofa recipe, but I do have hlallu shelf, orderly...I sell a dozen of these a week, and can definitely put those proceeds into telvanni sofas if I want splinters in my butt.

It’s a good trading game, not a recipe collecting game. It’s easier if you play it that way. Fifty vouchers is steep...but I’ll probsbly invest in those too. The prices will likely stabilize to make them just as profitable per voucher as the 25’s.

Jayne_Doe

davey1107 wrote: »

I understand the thought process behind the OP’s complaint, but I disagree with a few points.

First, I don’t think 25 vouchers for the existing recipes killed the market (on my server). I’ve purchased hundreds of these, and what happened when the price went up,is that the value of the recipes on the guild stores went up. If I go purchase ten, right now in my character’s life I’m getting maybe two I can learn. Of the remaining eight to resell, I almost always get a $100k+ recipe. My average profits are more or less in line with selling attainable stations. When I get a really valuable duplicate, like the fire pit, once I resell it for $300k I invest in super speedy recipes I haven’t nabbed.

Ive been happy with the system...I think I’ve been able to learn most purples available for close to a zero cost.

Secondly, the rarity of recipes makes people all angry...I get it...but I think Zos set it up this way so that furnishings can revitalize the trade economy. And it really has...I move a hundred pieces of furniture a week, and for the most part I’m seeing every item available for crafting in the game being sold for a $1-$2k premium over the cost of mats. I’ve never been able to get that dang telvanni sofa recipe, but I do have hlallu shelf, orderly...I sell a dozen of these a week, and can definitely put those proceeds into telvanni sofas if I want splinters in my butt.

It’s a good trading game, not a recipe collecting game. It’s easier if you play it that way. Fifty vouchers is steep...but I’ll probsbly invest in those too. The prices will likely stabilize to make them just as profitable per voucher as the 25’s.

Problem is, PC prices are lower than on console. Does the Redguard Firepit plan sell for $300K on PC? I'm on XB, but I've played on PC and my spouse is on PC and he's always amazed at how much I can sell things for and how much things cost at guild traders. The experience of one server isn't necessarily the same as the others.

Plus, your argument about the scarcity of plans revitalizing the housing market is really only a good thing for those that were lucky enough to score one of the MW plans early and then make bank on them since very few others had the plan to be able to make items themselves. And, yes, perhaps now prices are only 1-2K above mat costs, but they were way more expensive at MW's launch. So this scarcity really only benefitted those lucky few. I for one am glad that these plans are going to be more readily available. Of course, I don't have need for most of them now, since I bought almost all my furniture for my Vvardenfell homes from other players. But, I still want to collect the plans. And, there are still many furniture items that I've NEVER seen at the guild traders, so right now, I can't even furnish my home with, say, the blue quality carpets.

I do agree with you regarding the price points on the documents, and at launch, they should sell well on PC as they will on consoles. But, having Daedric plans in the mix does make that price point seem really steep, as no one wants to spend 50 vouchers to get a plan that they can't sell for more than a few thousand gold (on XB, at least). Those need to go, along with the Dwarven plans (though I don't mind that those are in there) since neither of them are exclusive to owning the MW chapter.

victoriana-blue

davey1107 wrote: »

I understand the thought process behind the OP’s complaint, but I disagree with a few points.

First, I don’t think 25 vouchers for the existing recipes killed the market (on my server). I’ve purchased hundreds of these, and what happened when the price went up,is that the value of the recipes on the guild stores went up. If I go purchase ten, right now in my character’s life I’m getting maybe two I can learn. Of the remaining eight to resell, I almost always get a $100k+ recipe. My average profits are more or less in line with selling attainable stations. When I get a really valuable duplicate, like the fire pit, once I resell it for $300k I invest in super speedy recipes I haven’t nabbed.

Ive been happy with the system...I think I’ve been able to learn most purples available for close to a zero cost.

Secondly, the rarity of recipes makes people all angry...I get it...but I think Zos set it up this way so that furnishings can revitalize the trade economy. And it really has...I move a hundred pieces of furniture a week, and for the most part I’m seeing every item available for crafting in the game being sold for a $1-$2k premium over the cost of mats. I’ve never been able to get that dang telvanni sofa recipe, but I do have hlallu shelf, orderly...I sell a dozen of these a week, and can definitely put those proceeds into telvanni sofas if I want splinters in my butt.

It’s a good trading game, not a recipe collecting game. It’s easier if you play it that way. Fifty vouchers is steep...but I’ll probsbly invest in those too. The prices will likely stabilize to make them just as profitable per voucher as the 25’s.

I'm sincerely happy that you break even on your plans, but on PC-NA it doesn't work that way. I'm lucky to get 10k on Bosmer and most Khajiit recipes, and 15k on most Dunmer (non-Morrowind), Nord, Altmer, and Orc. I sometimes break 25k on Breton and Argonian stuff, but not usually, and while the market shows 35-75k for the Redguard recipes they take a month to sell (or more) unless I undercut the lowest price by at least 15%.

The price increase had the secondary effect of pushing buyers out of the market, and fewer buyers means the plans take longer to sell.

On top of that, the furnishing market is awful: most purple furnishings sell slowly, even at 1k above the material cost and not counting the price of the recipe. (The percentage margin on green & blue furnishings is a little better, but you have to know your market and sell in bulk.) I could net 1k on the piece if it sells within a week, or I could use the same slot to sell a modest 10k in silk in the same time period.

While I see your point about ZOS trying to give crafters a market instead of making it easy for everyone to learn everything, I think it failed on a couple fronts:

First, the guild traders don't have a text search so if you're looking for a specific piece of furniture without using add-ons.. Good luck.

Second, it overestimates how much disposable income average players have. It took me many months of playing to break 100k in my bank because I kept buying inventory slots. I can buy a starter home for 56k; the material cost for a Nord grand table is ~5k, roughly 10% of the cost of the house for one piece of furniture and equivalent to buying 20 columbine. That's a lot for players who aren't rich and it reduces the market for nice furnishings.

On the supply end, the skill point requirements on many of the plans already make crafting furniture semi-exclusive, not to mention the research & motif/recipe costs to do the writs in the first place. 25k in mats and writs on top of that for the chance at a new recipe is excessive.

Third, it runs counter to the prior game design. Crafters are encouraged to complete motif collections with achievements (and supposedly, higher writ chances). There are achievements for learning furnishing plans. It set up an expectation that we can collect if we want, and the price increase with Morrowind was a rude shock for us. 25 vouchers is a couple weeks' worth of writ drops for those of us with one crafting character, and about double the previous mat cost.

I collected a lot of recipes during Homestead and reaching 100% seemed like an achievable - if really long term - goal. I had incentive to do writs and I could usually get enough on the duplicate plans to partially offset the total cost. I spent time hunting guild stores for good deals and was happy when I found a new-to-me recipe. I even did a couple writ runs in the fall, buying 20-ish envelopes and hoping to get new recipes; I didn't come close to making back my mat cost by selling the duplicates, let alone the gold I spent on the writs.

The prices on plans have pushed me out of collecting. I found a Morrowind purple this month, my first in hundreds of hours in Vvardenfell. I sold it. I have a couple unknown-to-me purples sitting in my bank, because I'm considering selling them too.

I make about a million gold a month from my regular activities (mat farming and thieving, mostly). If I think the envelopes are too expensive to bother with, they're far out of reach for average crafting players who already have to invest in research and motifs.

(Edited to clarify a few thoughts.)

Carbonised

Still bummed that we have seen no response to this. There will most likely not be any changes before the system goes live, major oversight from ZOS.

Why sell very expensive containers that even require a Chapter exclusive achievement, and then possibly get recipes that drop ALL OVER the game in every zone, with some of them even being so numerous that they sell for tens of gold or a hundred gold at most?

Morrowind furnishing documents should contain ONLY Vvardenfell/Morrowind recipe.

#NoMoreDaedricRecipes
#NoMoreDwarvenRecipes

Marabornwingrion

I purchased 100 purple furnishing documents (5000 voucher cost) on PTS, here are some numbers:

Daedric Furnishing Plans - 7
Dwarven Furnishing Plans - 9
Dunmer Furnishing Plans (Hlaalu, Redoran, Telvanni etc) - 84

And of course there were also duplicates, cause these containers are purely RNG based:

Dwarven duplicates - 1
Daedric duplicates - 3
Dunmer duplicates - 29

Even if 84% of these recipes were Morrowind ones, I still agree that deadric and dwarven ones should be excluded from these containers.

Joy_Division

davey1107 wrote: »

I understand the thought process behind the OP’s complaint, but I disagree with a few points.

First, I don’t think 25 vouchers for the existing recipes killed the market (on my server). I’ve purchased hundreds of these, and what happened when the price went up,is that the value of the recipes on the guild stores went up. If I go purchase ten, right now in my character’s life I’m getting maybe two I can learn. Of the remaining eight to resell, I almost always get a $100k+ recipe. My average profits are more or less in line with selling attainable stations. When I get a really valuable duplicate, like the fire pit, once I resell it for $300k I invest in super speedy recipes I haven’t nabbed.

Ive been happy with the system...I think I’ve been able to learn most purples available for close to a zero cost.

Secondly, the rarity of recipes makes people all angry...I get it...but I think Zos set it up this way so that furnishings can revitalize the trade economy. And it really has...I move a hundred pieces of furniture a week, and for the most part I’m seeing every item available for crafting in the game being sold for a $1-$2k premium over the cost of mats. I’ve never been able to get that dang telvanni sofa recipe, but I do have hlallu shelf, orderly...I sell a dozen of these a week, and can definitely put those proceeds into telvanni sofas if I want splinters in my butt.

It’s a good trading game, not a recipe collecting game. It’s easier if you play it that way. Fifty vouchers is steep...but I’ll probsbly invest in those too. The prices will likely stabilize to make them just as profitable per voucher as the 25’s.

I play just about everyday and it takes me weeks to get 50 vouchers.

Can we please have the housing /furniture system cater to folks who don't have 30 master crafters on multiple accounts please?

elantaura

Please drop the price, This is double dipping we bought the chapter we waited and we get charged more? Talk about pay to loose . Then in case that's not enough we can randomly get a daedric ashen bench available in base game?
You made it stupidly random to get plans in morrowind. I got purple recipes common, redguard, a Nordic,Breton yet in morrowind I didn't get even a dark elf let alone telvani - makes no sense

Yet a 1% er had plans who didn't buy the "chapter" bought some of them. So 1 morrowind person benefited but the non morrowind owner benefited more. And how many others bought the chapter who have none? You are cutting out the majority of the people who bought the chapter in favour of the minority who have money again. And you are punishing people in cost for an ill conceived distribution of plans in "bought content" in the first place. People who bought your content should have had it first - that's not rocket science to figure out that they should stand to get earlier it over the ones who didn't. It's not like it gives you unlimited sustain. It's a cosmetic thing so yeah they should benefit.There were many newbies who bought this game who still have no chance- they might as well have bought the original eso disk.

As a long term player I did not buy the morrowind homes because you can't decorate them in the style so it's pointless. ( and I have 32000 crowns but what's the point) i doubt I'll rush to buy the next Chapter as being early did nothing for me; boyant arminger came in crown crates and furniture was stupidly rare. So again what was the rush? Not a great president that's being set here. Now you are releasing writ voucher stuff that should have been there early on. it favours the minority in price and you put daedric in there? Why would you do that? throw them in non morrowind give them there own vendor in cold harbour- use your heads and think about this please.
You have manajged to stuff up the morrowind plans at every turn please get it right this time. It would be nice to have people to play with rather than rage quitting as they need to work for 3 years when you figure in RNG and what people ( inc myself cause 50 writs and all ) will charge to get a god damned table recipe.

Apache_Kid

davey1107 wrote: »

I understand the thought process behind the OP’s complaint, but I disagree with a few points.

First, I don’t think 25 vouchers for the existing recipes killed the market (on my server). I’ve purchased hundreds of these, and what happened when the price went up,is that the value of the recipes on the guild stores went up. If I go purchase ten, right now in my character’s life I’m getting maybe two I can learn. Of the remaining eight to resell, I almost always get a $100k+ recipe. My average profits are more or less in line with selling attainable stations. When I get a really valuable duplicate, like the fire pit, once I resell it for $300k I invest in super speedy recipes I haven’t nabbed.

Ive been happy with the system...I think I’ve been able to learn most purples available for close to a zero cost.

Secondly, the rarity of recipes makes people all angry...I get it...but I think Zos set it up this way so that furnishings can revitalize the trade economy. And it really has...I move a hundred pieces of furniture a week, and for the most part I’m seeing every item available for crafting in the game being sold for a $1-$2k premium over the cost of mats. I’ve never been able to get that dang telvanni sofa recipe, but I do have hlallu shelf, orderly...I sell a dozen of these a week, and can definitely put those proceeds into telvanni sofas if I want splinters in my butt.

It’s a good trading game, not a recipe collecting game. It’s easier if you play it that way. Fifty vouchers is steep...but I’ll probsbly invest in those too. The prices will likely stabilize to make them just as profitable per voucher as the 25’s.

Guy that moves hundreds of pieces of furniture a week for profit perfectly OK with the steep price and low drop-rate of Morrowind furnishing plans.

Makes sense to me.

Apache_Kid

Astrid_V wrote: »

I purchased 100 purple furnishing documents (5000 voucher cost) on PTS, here are some numbers:

Daedric Furnishing Plans - 7
Dwarven Furnishing Plans - 9
Dunmer Furnishing Plans (Hlaalu, Redoran, Telvanni etc) - 84

And of course there were also duplicates, cause these containers are purely RNG based:

Dwarven duplicates - 1
Daedric duplicates - 3
Dunmer duplicates - 29

Even if 84% of these recipes were Morrowind ones, I still agree that deadric and dwarven ones should be excluded from these containers.

I'm glad to see that the numbers are not overly skewed towards daedric plans but I think it's ridiculous that a player has a chance to spend FIFTY writ vouchers on an envelope and get a stupid candle set that we have all gotten to drop hundreds of times. The drop-rates on the daedric plans are way too high to justfiy any reason for putting them in the loot tables for these envelopes. Prices should be dropped to 10 for blue and 25 for purple as long as there is still a chance to get those daedric items. While Fifty vouchers may not be alot for some of us (I only have 2 crafters doing writs everyday) it is a large amount for many players.

Blacknight841

Carbonised wrote: »

Still bummed that we have seen no response to this. There will most likely not be any changes before the system goes live, major oversight from ZOS.

Why sell very expensive containers that even require a Chapter exclusive achievement, and then possibly get recipes that drop ALL OVER the game in every zone, with some of them even being so numerous that they sell for tens of gold or a hundred gold at most?

Morrowind furnishing documents should contain ONLY Vvardenfell/Morrowind recipe.

#NoMoreDaedricRecipes
#NoMoreDwarvenRecipes

This is just plain comical now haha

Before i start, i would like to go back to Jan 13th when i said...

"... already people are gearing up to complain about the common and cheap daedric plans being mixed in to the loot table... and the update isn't even out yet. (And this is nothing towards anyone on this post, but i can assure you that there will be a post about it when it launches, Probably with the title of "daedric plans are not morrowind plans!!!". It will happen, what and see)."

Point made, although i am a little disappointed i didn't guess the title correctly.

Now to the discussion.

1. These are Morrowind Envelopes and contain plans released with morrowind, including daedric (first set) and Dwarven. So technically it only contains morrowind plans, Although some were excluded. (The Pattern: Argonian box, woven; and Patter: Argonian Skiff, Common Reed[Unobtainable], and the Diagram: Redguard Cannister, Gilded). These plans are not in the loot table from what i can tell for the new envelopes, and having been added along with morrowind, they are also not in the old envelopes either.

2. Cost. I am disappointed with the cost as well. I personally think they should have been 100 vouchers. Practically handing them out for free at 50 vouchers. The whole idea of the increase was that these are meant to be rare. IF they are 10 vouchers then the market is flooded and the blue recipes actually end up becoming more rare than the purples due to how easy it is to buy the purple plans. How did i come up with that number. well there are 150 purple morrowind plans available in the loot table if the one i labeled above is not in the table and all others are present. Then there are 523 purple plans in the old envelope. So in general the plans should be 4x as rare as the normal plans 150/523 = 28.68%. Pricing them at 100 vouchers would make it so that there are 4 non morrowind plans to every morrowind plan, while pricing them at 50 vouchers means that twice as common as they should be.

3. Amber lights. This is simple. The reason they did that is so that people will buy the crown ones if they want the amber ones and can buy the azure ones if they would rather spend gold on it. This in my opinion is exactly how the crown store should operate. You can get one version in the game, but another is exclusive to the crown store. Its unfortunate that there are some Crown store only items with non cartable counterparts, but once again i am ok with that as it would make no sense to make it all available in the game, especially if they make the plans as common as the motifs, Then the whole crown store for furniture becomes useless.

4. I also disagree with the legerdemain drops being added to envelopes for the morrowind blues. They didn't add the skooma bubbler, or the coffin case/lid to the old envelopes, so there is no need to add the morrowind plans that must be pickpocketed to the envelopes.

... there will always be complaints, no system is perfect and you can't satisfy everyone (i was fine with the way they had it).... but i would count your blessings that they answered the request of putting the morrowind plans and ONLY the morrowind plans, into the envelopes.lol. You could have gone to open you 50 voucher envelope and ended up with another Dark Elf Tea Table, wouldn't that have been something!!! haha

Carbonised

@Blacknight841

You already spewed the same kind of nonsense in another of my threads about the same topic, before the PTS went up, and we saw the Morrowind documents.

It was pretty established in that other thread that you're just being salty because your monopoly is broken, and other people are now able to get access to these recipes with enough investment, without having to rely on you and your overpriced furnishings. Be glad you had more than half a year of milking the market, that gold should suffice plenty until you can milk the players off their gold when the next bunch of recipes land.

Luckily it's pretty clear you represent a pampered and spoiled minority, and at least in this case, ZOS has decided to put the needs of the regular, common player above those of the likes of you.