Tanks, please do not kite the last boss in Vet Blackheart Haven to the side!

Valykc

Meld777 wrote: »

But when your group has over 120k single target DPS on bosses,

LOL

jakeedmundson

Gorath wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Gorath wrote: »

Some tanks probably still have nightmares from 1.5 when skeletons got out of control
It happened to me that DD's asked me not to go to the side and I didn't. It was once. Most of the time when I pug, DD's don't talk, they just light attack and and die to adds.

@jakeedmundson learn to read
@Unfadingsilence learn even more to read

.... care to elaborate?

@jakeedmundson Sure.

Meld777 wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

120k+ DPS in a PUG? Yeah right.

We're 2 DDs in this case. Tank and Healer are random. Single target of 150k is possible because the fights are very short. When you start your rotation with a destro ulti, your single target DPS will spike up to over 70k in the beginning and then slowly drop. By the time it reaches ~62k, the Flesh Abomination is dead

Meld777 wrote: »

Loc2262 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

We're 2 DDs in this case. Tank and Healer are random. Single target of 150k is possible because the fights are very short. When you start your rotation with a destro ulti, your single target DPS will spike up to over 70k in the beginning and then slowly drop. By the time it reaches ~62k, the Flesh Abomination is dead

Yeah of course, in short fights you can reach nice DPS bursts. You didn't mention "Flesh Abomination" before, so I figured you were talking about your sustained cumulative DPS. Since you never know what kind of buffs you get from a random tank and healer, I highly doubt you can do 150k together on e.g. Drodda or Maw of the Infernal.

Nah, I was only talking about the bosses in vBH. I usually bring my own drain and off balance (Asylum Staff). Yep, on longer boss fights, like the ones you mentioned, the DPS plunges. That's where you really start to feel the difference of Alkosh, SPC, Worm, Crusher, Horn, etc. Not in vBH though

Sorry if I offended you, did not mean to. I just get triggered by people who instantly start measuring e-peen the first moment they read "DPS"

No it's fine. i try not to read text as insulting the first run through...especially on forums. I really was asking for clarification, i read through the OP again to see if i missed something stupid.

And i did read that post but i still don't really believe those numbers. Then again, i'm on console and don't get to see a parse of those very short fights

Defilted

I have killed this boss using both strats as a DPS and a tank so not sure why it matters. Each time no one dies and the boss is defeated.

Who cares where he is killed.

Samadhi

Meld777 wrote: »

...
The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.
...

Meld777 wrote: »

...
vBH seems to be the only dungeon where tanks get super afraid of adds on the last boss.
...

From a tank standpoint, the worst thing that can happen on the final boss in Blackheart is the DPS can't burn him down quickly enough,
he transforms me to a skeleton, making me unable to taunt or chain the ADDs, which then kill the DPS
and the run becomes a *** of rezzing

If the group melts the Ogrim boss before he can activate his health regen/growth mechanic
then won't bother moving Blackheart
otherwise Blackheart gets pulled to the side

If the Ogrim boss has time to buff and we go through both stages of his fight
then even if you insist that your DPS is high enough to drop Blackheart, will not be giving you the benefit of the doubt
sorry

kringled_1

After my first run in vBH as a tank, most of my runs have been smooth. Until this past Monday. Even in the trash pulls, nothing was dying. Combat Metrics and group chat led me to believe that I had one dps with 10-12k single target and few aoe skills slotted, and the other dps and healer were together doing about add much as my awesome 5k tank dps. Top that with the templar healer not using shards and it was one of my more frustrating dungeons, all fights took forever, always out of resources. You can bet I took the last boss to the side (3 cycles of me being turned into a skeleton, once for one of the dps).
I'm happy to listen and try it however if the damage is good.

Chrlynsch

4 werewolves = No players turn into skeletons... kind of neat.

Sweetpea704

If you're doing 120K dps, why do you even care where he tanks it? It's dead in 30 seconds.

Pea

Liofa

Don't PUG . Problem solved . Get a real tank that is aware of your capability and DPS . Burn the s**t out of everything and that's it .

Meld777

Thanks for the replies. Was interesting to hear it from tanks' perspectives.

Samadhi wrote: »

If the group melts the Ogrim boss before he can activate his health regen/growth mechanic

That's actually a very good way to judge the DPS if you don't have addons.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

4 werewolves = No players turn into skeletons... kind of neat.

Never knew that.

jakeedmundson wrote: »

And i did read that post but i still don't really believe those numbers. Then again, i'm on console and don't get to see a parse of those very short fights

Besides the fact that my thread is not about "Hey guys, I have op DPS", but "Assuming group DPS is X, why don't you do Y as a tank?"

If you're on PC, just use combat metrics. It will tell you the group DPS, both AoE and single target.
In case you're not on PC, just know that DPS is very high in the beginning and slowly goes down over time until it reaches a certain point. Then when another ulti is up, it goes up again. In the end, it just reaches a certain equilibrium. In order to reach the self-sustained 52k you mentioned, that player probably had over 80k in the beginning of the fight which slowly went down to 52k. My sustained dummy DPS with my dungeon build is ~42k. If you optimize your build for a dummy, 50k isn't that hard either. You don't have to be stamina for that. But it won't benefit you in actual dungeons and your maximum possible DPS will actually be lower there. Example

WrathOfInnos

jakeedmundson wrote: »

And like everyone else here that has posted, i too will call you out on your 120k dps. at MOST in a dungeon you could hit 80k together if you're both at the absolute maximum, top-tier dps AND your tank/healer has support sets and skills to give you a dps boost.

There's even a post out there of a guy cheesing a 3 mil dummy on his stam blade... and HE even only hit 52k. Lets say you both did that (which you likely won't) thats 100k dps.

@jakeedmundson He is not talking about sustained DPS, these are burst fights.

I'll use the Deathlord in vFH as an example, since just yesterday my group burned him down without having to cleanse any corpses. This requires about 150k group DPS and we barely made the cut. I would not be surprised to see better groups pull 180k-200k on a stack and burn burst fight.

jakeedmundson

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

And like everyone else here that has posted, i too will call you out on your 120k dps. at MOST in a dungeon you could hit 80k together if you're both at the absolute maximum, top-tier dps AND your tank/healer has support sets and skills to give you a dps boost.

There's even a post out there of a guy cheesing a 3 mil dummy on his stam blade... and HE even only hit 52k. Lets say you both did that (which you likely won't) thats 100k dps.

@jakeedmundson He is not talking about sustained DPS, these are burst fights.

I'll use the Deathlord in vFH as an example, since just yesterday my group burned him down without having to cleanse any corpses. This requires about 150k group DPS and we barely made the cut. I would not be surprised to see better groups pull 180k-200k on a stack and burn burst fight.

good to know!... we just did that the other day too actually. Burned that boss before the purge. But we're on console so i never see those parse numbers!
sorry for the skepticism... it just seems crazy.

Meld777

@WrathOfInnos @jakeedmundson

Yep, the Deathlord in vFH isn't burnable for us with random pugs. However, we did it with a premade group with Horn, SPC, Worm, Alkosh, Crusher, fire damage bonus, not having to apply own drain, both with prismatic weapon enchants on our staves. With group finder pugs it would be instant rip at ~20%. I usually ask the healer to purify once. Learned not to use the word "cleanse" the hard way since many group finder ppl haven't been that far yet, they slot an actual cleanse and think they understood what I meant

Spacemonkey

Considering this is one dungeon where DDs arent needed , just deal with it. I've seen so many DDs wipe on 3rd boss constantly because they get one hit by the random flare attack that I have 0 respect for DPS in this dungeon. If you want to glass cannon thats fine.

Dont complain about the Tank playing the dungeon in a way they know is safe because they don't trust YOU not to melt like butter in a split second on some laughable mechanic.

You are literally complaining about the tank doing his job, that will add (in your case) about 2 whole mins to killing the last boss. You are the accessory support character in this dungeon. You are only there to make things a bit faster, otherwise you are honestly not needed. Suck it up.

SpearDusk

I heal there at times, and I find it easier when the tank goes to the side in a “pug”, but if its an organized group then it may be different:p

yttoks

Shrug. Typically I'm doing this as DPS, and it's high enough that I don't really care that much what the tank does with this boss. Running him all over the beach and up the hill to the door would add a minute or two to the fight. Shrug.

What really slows down a group is a lot of chatter about what to do in a dungeon, especially if an argument ensues. If everyone knows 'the way', the fight starts immediately and goes according to 'the way'...it's gonna be a really short fight unless the group is seriously gimped somehow, in which case they probably don't know 'the way' to begin with. Discussing tactics in chat on this fight will probably just result in a slightly longer fight, assuming someone doesn't need/want the mech explained.

ol_BANK_lo

Meld777 wrote: »

My gf and I like to pug, we're both DDs, and we like random vets. But in this one dungeon, it happens every freakin' time.

We tell the Tank, "Please, tank the boss where he spawns, don't kite him to the side. Please trust us!" and, 9 out of 10 times, Tanks don't listen. And not that they don't see the chat. They answer something along the lines of, "It's free"/"But no adds"/"No, you don't understand, look!" and then do it their way.

The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.

I understand there are bad DDs out there. But when your group has over 120k single target DPS on bosses, please consider another, more pleasant approach, especially when asked for it.

The problem is high dps in a pug run is a very small minority. Quite frankly they don't believe you because they have never seen it. Most good players run with other good players and use these burn tactics. You can post this thread, but it won't change. I stopped pugging dungeons a long time ago. I remember doing fast burn on final boss of Elden Hollow II and the tank said we had "god dps". Pugs aren't used to it. Even though your dps is good, having a good trial tank with Aggressive War Horn and good buff/debuff sets (neither of which pug tanks have) is even better. Just run with good people.

Kuramas9tails

If you are pugging, the odds of them reading this very forum is next to none.

Your efforts are futile.

Gl

Soleya

When tanking with PUGS, this is typical group dps.



Few other things to note, the healer was a dual wield/bow user, who didn't heal. I was over 80% of the group healing as a tank.

So in reality I had 3 "DPS".

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Yeah, if I'm running this with pugs, I'm gonna tank it in a corner. I'm sure some groups have the DPS to burn it down before anyone turns but the chances of getting that in a pug are slim.

OP seems to be suggesting a general rule (everyone don't tank boss in the corner) based on a very particular circumstance ( two competent Damage Dealers probably either on TS or in the same location that know the fight).

Based on the fact that the odds of me ever running a dungeon with you two is astronomically low, I'm gonna keep doing what I need to do get my keys and gear with whatever pugs I happen to get, which means I'll tank in the corner TYVM.

Unfadingsilence

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

On the other hand, there's a large number of players that simply don't have experience with high dps, therefore the safest strat, for them, is the only strat, the right one.

This is the reason. Most tanks in group finder have never seen high dps, and they dont know what to do differently about it. Not their fault, we all learn

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

My gf and I like to pug, we're both DDs, and we like random vets. But in this one dungeon, it happens every freakin' time.

We tell the Tank, "Please, tank the boss where he spawns, don't kite him to the side. Please trust us!" and, 9 out of 10 times, Tanks don't listen. And not that they don't see the chat. They answer something along the lines of, "It's free"/"But no adds"/"No, you don't understand, look!" and then do it their way.

The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.

I understand there are bad DDs out there. But when your group has over 120k single target DPS on bosses, please consider another, more pleasant approach, especially when asked for it.

I have seen your single target do and it is no where near 120k even with another dps..... GG

And I have seen you buy vmol skin for 4M a year ago. On a side note, meldan is on pc, you are on xbox

And I have a PC account and a PS4 account... I have seen you buy all skins for 100 million try again kid

Gorath

Soleya wrote: »

When tanking with PUGS, this is typical group dps.



Few other things to note, the healer was a dual wield/bow user, who didn't heal. I was over 80% of the group healing as a tank.

So in reality I had 3 "DPS".

That's brutal, but also what I experienced a few times. Okay-ish damage dealers in group finder are rare. Two of them that play together, have end-game gear and know what they are doing? That's a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

On the other hand, there's a large number of players that simply don't have experience with high dps, therefore the safest strat, for them, is the only strat, the right one.

This is the reason. Most tanks in group finder have never seen high dps, and they dont know what to do differently about it. Not their fault, we all learn

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

My gf and I like to pug, we're both DDs, and we like random vets. But in this one dungeon, it happens every freakin' time.

We tell the Tank, "Please, tank the boss where he spawns, don't kite him to the side. Please trust us!" and, 9 out of 10 times, Tanks don't listen. And not that they don't see the chat. They answer something along the lines of, "It's free"/"But no adds"/"No, you don't understand, look!" and then do it their way.

The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.

I understand there are bad DDs out there. But when your group has over 120k single target DPS on bosses, please consider another, more pleasant approach, especially when asked for it.

I have seen your single target do and it is no where near 120k even with another dps..... GG

And I have seen you buy vmol skin for 4M a year ago. On a side note, meldan is on pc, you are on xbox

And I have a PC account and a PS4 account... I have seen you buy all skins for 100 million try again kid

You sound like one desparate lil fella. Besides, aren't you the one who had low DPS in group and kicked a low CP DD with a destro staff instead of the high CP DD with sword and shield and resto, hoping DPS will increase? Where the low CP was probably doing 80% group DPS. I don't think you're able to judge anyone's DPS

jakeedmundson

Gorath wrote: »

That's brutal, but also what I experienced a few times. Okay-ish damage dealers in group finder are rare. Two of them that play together, have end-game gear and know what they are doing? That's a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

It's funny to put it like that... but it really is true when you're tanking a pug. The reality is, you're stuck with that stomach churning group dps of 11k too many times (with your included tank dps)

On the other hand, my friend and i will usually double dps the pledges... crossing our fingers for a decent tank or healer (really only need one that knows the job) Both of us can hit 30k - 40k on the dummy depending on the character. I just hope the tank/healer feels as fortunate as i would feel getting that "once in a lifetime experience"

VaranisArano

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Gorath wrote: »

That's brutal, but also what I experienced a few times. Okay-ish damage dealers in group finder are rare. Two of them that play together, have end-game gear and know what they are doing? That's a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

It's funny to put it like that... but it really is true when you're tanking a pug. The reality is, you're stuck with that stomach churning group dps of 11k too many times (with your included tank dps)

On the other hand, my friend and i will usually double dps the pledges... crossing our fingers for a decent tank or healer (really only need one that knows the job) Both of us can hit 30k - 40k on the dummy depending on the character. I just hope the tank/healer feels as fortunate as i would feel getting that "once in a lifetime experience"

A good tank can tell by the first trash mob and definitely by the first miniboss how the dungeon is going to go.

Usually, its "Okay, we can do this. Thoroughly average."

Sometimes, its "Oh, boy, this is going to be one of those runs, isn't it."

Sometimes, is "You do realize that an ice staff heavy attack taunts the boss, right?"

And for those rare times when I do get DDs with high DPS, its "Hallelujah!"

montjie

I just dont get what Flesh Abomination has to do with BH.

And I cant recall ever pulling the boss to the side as a tank..I just put him slightly in front of where he spawns so i have better range to chain in all the skeletons..and hell... a chain, pierce armor and deep breath combo alone is usually already enough to kill those skinny buggers.

If it isnt broken, dont fix it id say